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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ron Jones on October 17, 2003, at 15:00:49
Can you just not will yourself into sanity?Why can you not be normal.I know a family and everone in that family has manic depression.It must be a gentic disorder of the brain.What else could cause this?I know another family where everyone has OCD.People with manic depression always have other forms of mental illness:OCD,Panic Attacks,ADD ,ect.Why is this?You can not find anyone ,who just has one mental illness.The symptoms of one form of mental illness are just like the symptoms of other forms of mental illness.If you have panic attacks ,you find that people with OCD and manic depression also have panic attacks.Why is this.I just want some answers.Is there no trained scientist with a mental illness in this world?
Posted by mattdds on October 17, 2003, at 15:49:08
In reply to Normal Brain vs Abnormal Brain Why?, posted by Ron Jones on October 17, 2003, at 15:00:49
Hi Ron,
I don't understand what you are asking when you pose the question of whether people can "will themselves" into sanity. Please define "will". The idea of "free will" may just be an illusion anyway, and philosophers have debated this for centuries. Your question seems to make sense, but if you examine it further, it may not valid. You may be asking the wrong question.
If you are asking whether people can do certain things (psychotherapy, etc.) to treat and help mental illness, the answer is certainly yes. Medications are known to help many people as well.
There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Little is understood about psychiatric illness and the way psychiatric meds work. Yes there are well known adverse effects of medications, but sometimes the benefits outweigh the risks.
You mentioned that mental illness tends to run along familial lines. This is true. It is suggestive that there is a large biological component to mental illness. But that's really about all we can say.
We all want answers to why we feel ill, but sometimes this obsession with finding the answer becomes part of the disease, or is a manifestation of it.
There are many scientists with mental illness, and this is not the problem. People are actively researching the brain and treatments for mental illness. The problem is the complexity of mental illness and the brain / mind in general, and not a lack of intelligent people investigating the matter.
I would not waste time trying to figure it out. We are not there yet, nor are we even close. Treatment at this point is palliative - that's it! There is no evident brain pathology that can just be "fixed up", and there are no cures for mental illness, just treatments. And our understanding of the brain / mind is extremely limited at this point.
On a brighter note, there definitely are treatments that work. I don't think this is refutable. And if a treatment can restore function and well being to an individual, who cares how it works?
Having been in your position at one time, I might kindly suggest you stop worrying so much about why it happens, and start working out a solution (perhaps cognitive or other psychotherapy, medications, and lifestyle changes) even if you don't know how the solution works.
Best wishes,
Matt
Posted by cybercafe on October 17, 2003, at 17:20:20
In reply to Re: Normal Brain vs Abnormal Brain Why? » Ron Jones, posted by mattdds on October 17, 2003, at 15:49:08
> There are many scientists with mental illness, and this is not the problem. People are actively researching the brain and treatments for mental illness. The problem is the complexity of mental illness and the brain / mind in general, and not a lack of intelligent people investigating the matter.i have good reason to believe that about 8/10 pdocs are idiots :) and the other 2 are damn busy....
but all 10 seem quite apathetic
Posted by mattdds on October 17, 2003, at 18:25:16
In reply to Re: Normal Brain vs Abnormal Brain Why?, posted by cybercafe on October 17, 2003, at 17:20:20
>>i have good reason to believe that about 8/10 pdocs are idiots :) and the other 2 are damn busy.... but all 10 seem quite apathetic
Is this the result of an objective survey you did? :)
I understand that you weren't calling any particular individual an "idiot", but I have a problem with labels like "idiots", because I don't really know they mean. They fail to accurately describe the problem with a person, therefore depriving the recipient of helpful feedback, and do nothing except make people feel inferior or inadequate.
Perhaps the pdoc is just human too, and subject to the same errors you and I are (e.g. frustration, stress, even mental illness) which happens to interfere with *your* immediate goals.
With something as complicated as mental illness, it's too simplistic to just conclude that the reason we don't get better is that the people treating us are "idiots", whatever that means.
Now that I'm done preaching, apathetic is a bit better. However, if I were a pdoc in practice solely prescribing medications, I would likely get frustrated and apathetic too! In other words, are you so sure you could do a better job?
Don't get me wrong, I've had my frustrations with psychiatrists, but I feel it's more productive to say things like "X psychiatrist didn't address my chief complaint", or "Y psychiatrist is too heavily influenced by marketing of big pharmaceutical companies". Calling someone an "idiot" does nothing to describe the problem, it just obfuscates it.
Anyhow, I was referring not so much to psychiatrists (clinicians) as the researhers in the fields of neuro and cognitive science. I do believe that there are some very capable people researching the brain.
But, who knows, maybe I'm just a "moron". LOL.
Matt
Posted by btnd on October 17, 2003, at 19:17:55
In reply to Normal Brain vs Abnormal Brain Why?, posted by Ron Jones on October 17, 2003, at 15:00:49
> Can you just not will yourself into sanity?Why can you not be normal.
Following your thinking - people with schizophrenia, parkinson, autism, tourette syndrome and other brain diseases should just *WILL* themselves into sanity! Oh god you just saved many people's illnesses by just correcting their thinking. Why haven't the scientists and psychologists thought about it before hmmm...
Posted by ace on October 18, 2003, at 0:40:05
In reply to Re: Normal Brain vs Abnormal Brain Why?, posted by cybercafe on October 17, 2003, at 17:20:20
>
> > There are many scientists with mental illness, and this is not the problem. People are actively researching the brain and treatments for mental illness. The problem is the complexity of mental illness and the brain / mind in general, and not a lack of intelligent people investigating the matter.
>
> i have good reason to believe that about 8/10 pdocs are idiots :) and the other 2 are damn busy....
> but all 10 seem quite apatheticHa Ha! Great point!!! I agree!
Ace.
Posted by cybercafe on October 18, 2003, at 2:00:03
In reply to Re: Normal Brain vs Abnormal Brain Why? » cybercafe, posted by mattdds on October 17, 2003, at 18:25:16
> >>i have good reason to believe that about 8/10 pdocs are idiots :) and the other 2 are damn busy.... but all 10 seem quite apathetic
>
> Is this the result of an objective survey you did? :)yes :)
>
> I understand that you weren't calling any particular individual an "idiot", but I have a problem with labels like "idiots", because I don't really know they mean. They fail to accurately describe the problem with a person, therefore depriving the recipient of helpful feedback, and do nothing except make people feel inferior or inadequate.that's cool.... it's totally understandable that you have a problem with my somewhat offensive claim, and i can only assure you that if i wasn't so strongly convinced that my doctors are morons i wouldn't say so....... example.... would be spending 3 years not getting better because while every visit i mention "doc, i'm pretty sure i'm bipolar" i get told "no you're not" ... someone competent would INVESTIGATE a claim before dismissing it.......... i also spent another 3 years suggesting to doctors that i was suffering from ADD and getting the same run around .... eventually i tried a LOT of caffeine and diagnosed myself........ a LOT of the improvements in my case have come from my research + tips from ASDM, psychobabble etc ............ i have many times said "this doc is an idiot, i need to find someone who knows more about psychiatry - or at least TRD- than me", got myself a new doctor, and been pleasantly surprised that in fact this new doctor knows 100 times more about these disorders than my old doc who for example would say "nobody knows ____" whereas my new doc would explain ____ in detail and save my butt
and then there are the doctors that LIE to me to get me to go away .... yeah perhaps i am a bit annoying with my "hey i'm REALLY depressed, i need an antidepressant" but gee, when someone is really depressed perhaps if you are not an idiot or totally apathetic you would address their problem
but enough ranting.... basically my situation is this1) doctor gives up on me.. i'm operating at 30%
2) people on the net or VERY CLEAR STANDARD REFERENCES like "the canadian psychiatric association clinical guidelines for depression" or "the american psychiatric association practice guidelines for the treatment of depression" suggest
many many many alternatives
3) i somehow convince my stubborn doc to take this STANDARD treatment and i feel better.... duh!or how about this
me - "hey buddy i think gabapentin is good for anxiety"
doc - "no it isn't"
doc 2 years later - "i've just come back from a conference, and i heard that gabapentin is good for anxiety... i want you to try it".... THANKS BUDDY you're a genius!
dude i hope my old docs FEEL INFERIOR.... FEEL SOMETHING.... then maybe they will be motivated to care about their patients ... to learn... etc....
i am sick and tired of coming into my docs office and knowing more about xxxxx than he does (note my new doc actually knows MUCH more than me, and i respect that) ... it's ridiculous...if i know more than a doc in one particular area, i expect that if he has run into a dead end, he will at least
1) take the time to listen to me
2) say "gee this patient managed to educate himself on xxxx and it may be the only thing that can help him.... maybe i should take the time to educate MYSELF on xxx... after all, i'm getting paid $xxx hundred a visit and he gets paid NOTHING" ... hell i may even go to the trouble of printing out official government treatment methods that my doc has not considered........ if he doesn't know them, i would expect him/her to feel responsible to at least read them
> Perhaps the pdoc is just human too, and subject to the same errors you and I are (e.g. frustration, stress, even mental illness) which happens to interfere with *your* immediate goals.perhaps some are not "idiots" but just very poorly up to date ... and to that i blame apathy... and a total lack of a regulating body ...
> With something as complicated as mental illness, it's too simplistic to just conclude that the reason we don't get better is that the people treating us are "idiots", whatever that means.yep.... but i'll throw in apathy, time constraints and arrogance and i think that will about cover it :)
> Now that I'm done preaching, apathetic is a bit better. However, if I were a pdoc in practice solely prescribing medications, I would likely get frustrated and apathetic too! In other words, are you so sure you could do a better job?nope i'm not sure i can do a better job.... but that doesn't mean i'm going to stop pointing out that THE SYSTEM NEEDS FIXING
> Don't get me wrong, I've had my frustrations with psychiatrists, but I feel it's more productive to say things like "X psychiatrist didn't address my chief complaint", or "Y psychiatrist is too heavily influenced by marketing of big pharmaceutical companies". Calling someone an "idiot" does nothing to describe the problem, it just obfuscates it.how about "inability to absorb pertinent information in a timely manner" or "inability to recognize the obvious"
> Anyhow, I was referring not so much to psychiatrists (clinicians) as the researhers in the fields of neuro and cognitive science. I do believe that there are some very capable people researching the brain.yeah..... i get off topic easily because it's a subject i feel very passionate about
> But, who knows, maybe I'm just a "moron". LOL.hey that's cool.... as long as you don't let arrogance or apathy prevent you from vastly improving the quality of a patients life :)
Posted by Momof1BPKid on October 19, 2003, at 0:52:23
In reply to Normal Brain vs Abnormal Brain Why?, posted by Ron Jones on October 17, 2003, at 15:00:49
Ok.
I am going to answer this with my thoughts. Can you will yourself into sanity? I think maybe sometimes you can, but most of the time you cant. Take it from a mom who has had a child with illnesses that cross multiple diagnoses since birth with no known cause. pretty normal pregnancy etc , no drug abuse or anything like that at all.
he is just him, I do believe he was very hyper, very smart and that years of peoples negative reactions caused him alot of anger, he is diagnosed bipolar, but sometimes I just think adhd went to anger based on crappy people hating his fidgetyness. He was born that way and had a variety of disorders that he overlaps on such as adhd, bipolar, ocd, tourettes, depression, anxiety etc etc. I did read an article on cnn, where it said if someone is i guess somewhat outcast from a group, basically they are not socially accepted like they want to be as part of a group, it affects a certain part of your brain. I read on CNN scientists studying the ACC? part of the brain, if someone coming up and poking you in the eye physically, this is equivalent for say a kid being ousted from a baseball game from a group of kids, and noone lets him play. (making someone feel alienated basically). :o! Maybe my son was always moody, maybe he just is irritated by people treating him badly, who knows.
Now to get on doctors, is there anyone trained in mental illness? yes? , but before you get on the mental illness kick you might want to look at just "normal doctors" are they trained? not really they pretty much say "ur sick?" it's viral (i cant do a thing) its bacterial (heres some antibiotics) , I know so many people with physical illnesses that go to the doctor and the doctors tell them "i see it but, i dont know what that is.." .. they pretty much try a drug and see if it works if so you luck out , or maybe it just goes away, if not they keep trying. I know alot of people who have a variety of physical illnesses where docs are pretty much "stumped" and have no cause, this happens ALOT! so its not just mental illness!One thing I will tell you, all the people I know who I have met that are similar in their adhd, anxiety etc etc., have the same body profile as myself, crave carbs, crave chocolate, have addictive personalities, eat lots of chocolate and caffeine and nicotine, and all happen to be managers like myself who are extremely agressive in our workstyle in the office,borderline obsessive about work and workaholics, of course the company loves us, theres about 5 of us like this. its just a weird thing, that all of us have history of adhd and depression and anxiety in our families dont cha think?
So dont ever say us crazy people are productive :D
Can you just not will yourself into sanity?Why can you not be normal.I know a family and everone in that family has manic depression.It must be a gentic disorder of the brain.What else could cause this?I know another family where everyone has OCD.People with manic depression always have other forms of mental illness:OCD,Panic Attacks,ADD ,ect.Why is this?You can not find anyone ,who just has one mental illness.The symptoms of one form of mental illness are just like the symptoms of other forms of mental illness.If you have panic attacks ,you find that people with OCD and manic depression also have panic attacks.Why is this.I just want some answers.Is there no trained scientist with a mental illness in this world?
This is the end of the thread.
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