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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by loolot on September 29, 2003, at 14:30:24
My doc gave me a prescrip for adderal but I want to tru slenegine because I have heard it is not addictive like other dopaninergic meds. Has anyone ordered this stuff as a smart drug? The dose is so low that the dietary restrictions dont apply.
Posted by Emme on September 29, 2003, at 22:07:09
In reply to has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose, posted by loolot on September 29, 2003, at 14:30:24
Posted by loolot on September 30, 2003, at 23:43:35
In reply to Do you mean selegiline? (nm) » loolot, posted by Emme on September 29, 2003, at 22:07:09
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 1, 2003, at 18:52:54
In reply to has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose, posted by loolot on September 29, 2003, at 14:30:24
I've been wanting to try it for quite a while, but I think I'm going to order the liquid formulation (Jumex) as it's said by many to be more effective. My reasons aren't for the anti-aging or smart drug benefits, but rather that I find meds that are primarily dopaminergic to be extremely helpful for me. Mirapex, a dopamine agonist, was just great for a while, but then I began having the sleep attacks that can occur while taking the drug. Too bad.
Posted by platinumbride on October 2, 2003, at 8:48:15
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose » loolot, posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 1, 2003, at 18:52:54
Please,
What are the "sleep attacks". Another poster spoke of this drug, I believe, for motivation porblems...that would be me. And now those motivation problems are making me feel....well, depressed......But I can't afford to lose sleep or get too sleepy if I want any motivation, right?
PB
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 2, 2003, at 11:25:29
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose » Ame Sans Vie, posted by platinumbride on October 2, 2003, at 8:48:15
Amotivation was the reason I began taking the Mirapex as well. Well, that plus lack of confidence and anhedonia. It worked beautifully for all of these at the maximum dose (4.5mg/day), and even had the added benefit of improving my libido.
The sleep attacks are described in the prescribing information at http://www.mirapex.com. Not everyone gets them, but it's basically just sudden overwhelming feelings of sleepiness several times during the day. Sort of like narcolepsy. I suppose you could fend off this adverse effect by supplementing with Provigil or another CNS stimulant. I didn't think of that at the time, but I'm willing to go back on it now that I take DextroStat.
Posted by platinumbride on October 2, 2003, at 17:05:44
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose » platinumbride, posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 2, 2003, at 11:25:29
Does it make you hyper or cause weight gain?
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 2, 2003, at 17:25:53
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose » Ame Sans Vie, posted by platinumbride on October 2, 2003, at 17:05:44
No, those aren't usual side effects (they're possible though, I suppose). The only really common side effects are the sleep attacks and nausea when first beginning treatment -- you need to very slowly increase your dose to avoid what can potentially be extreme nausea. I was curled up on the floor of my bathroom for 12 hours just waiting to throw up one night just because I decided to titrate the dose too fast.
Posted by omegon on October 2, 2003, at 21:52:30
In reply to has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose, posted by loolot on September 29, 2003, at 14:30:24
I have tried selegiline, for a couple of months, starting five weeks after stopping St John's Wort. Part of my abortive attempts at self-medication for depression over the last few years.
I experimented with various doses from 2.5mg/day, eventually stabilising on 2.5mg twice a week. Even at such low doses it has a strong stimulant effect on me (I think this is unusually sensitive), improvement of mood, concentration and motivation - definitely a "smart drug", if you disregard the adverse effects: it made my anxiety worse and made me somewhat reckless, irritable and overexcitable. Also increased sex drive. Makes caffeine much more fun, more addictive and less anxiety-producing. All in all it was a lot of fun, but not something I'd want to use continually.
I stopped in the end because I got SEVERE headaches from tyramine-containing foods, which I found near impossible to avoid. It's possible these were still being caused by residual effects from the St John's Wort, I guess (I quit that for the same reason), although they seemed to get stronger; in any case the anxiety effects were enough to quit selegiline.
In the three weeks after stopping, I had a severe crash of mood and, well, everything, which sent me running to a doctor, and I'm now on paroxetine, with some improvement but problems with side effects and mood swings.
The tyramine headaches took over 12 weeks to stop after quitting selegiline, and over 20 weeks since quitting SJW. They've now stopped completely. I will never take a MAO inhibitor again.
Posted by loolot on October 3, 2003, at 11:34:54
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose » loolot, posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 1, 2003, at 18:52:54
> I've been wanting to try it for quite a while, but I think I'm going to order the liquid formulation (Jumex) as it's said by many to be more effective. My reasons aren't for the anti-aging or smart drug benefits, but rather that I find meds that are primarily dopaminergic to be extremely helpful for me. Mirapex, a dopamine agonist, was just great for a while, but then I began having the sleep attacks that can occur while taking the drug. Too bad.>>
I remember your wanting to try that new sleep med, Xyrem (sp). Would that help regulate the sleep problems?
I would like to order the liquid version too (for depression not smarts) but I dont know of a good pharmacy. Ill let you know if I find a good one
Posted by loolot on October 3, 2003, at 11:43:23
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug dose, posted by omegon on October 2, 2003, at 21:52:30
Thanks so much for this information. The stimulating effects actually sound good to me. I am kind of spaced out and low energy. Do you have a tendency towards anxiety/stimulation or anhedonia, etc?
What was the main reason you decided to stop the med? The headaches? Anxiety?
Did you try liquid, pills or what? Could it be possible your meds were cut with an amphetemine? I have heard of this with overseas pharmacies. I think it is less likely with the liquid. Which pharm did you use?
Thanks> I have tried selegiline, for a couple of months, starting five weeks after stopping St John's Wort. Part of my abortive attempts at self-medication for depression over the last few years.
>
> I experimented with various doses from 2.5mg/day, eventually stabilising on 2.5mg twice a week. Even at such low doses it has a strong stimulant effect on me (I think this is unusually sensitive), improvement of mood, concentration and motivation - definitely a "smart drug", if you disregard the adverse effects: it made my anxiety worse and made me somewhat reckless, irritable and overexcitable. Also increased sex drive. Makes caffeine much more fun, more addictive and less anxiety-producing. All in all it was a lot of fun, but not something I'd want to use continually.
>
> I stopped in the end because I got SEVERE headaches from tyramine-containing foods, which I found near impossible to avoid. It's possible these were still being caused by residual effects from the St John's Wort, I guess (I quit that for the same reason), although they seemed to get stronger; in any case the anxiety effects were enough to quit selegiline.
>
> In the three weeks after stopping, I had a severe crash of mood and, well, everything, which sent me running to a doctor, and I'm now on paroxetine, with some improvement but problems with side effects and mood swings.
>
> The tyramine headaches took over 12 weeks to stop after quitting selegiline, and over 20 weeks since quitting SJW. They've now stopped completely. I will never take a MAO inhibitor again.
>
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 3, 2003, at 11:47:46
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug , posted by loolot on October 3, 2003, at 11:34:54
> I remember your wanting to try that new sleep med, Xyrem (sp). Would that help regulate the sleep problems?
Hmm... hard to say, but it sounds very likely. Xyrem is just GHB (the infamous 'date-rape drug' or 'liquid ecstasy'). The manufacturer, Orphan Medical, goes by a different generic name, sodium oxybate, which is just another name for SODIUM gamma-hydrOXYButyrATE (NaGHB).
Anyway, GHB knocks you right out in 10 minutes or so after taking it, but while you're asleep on GHB you get extremely restful sleep. During Xyrem-induced sleep, dopamine begins to sort of accumulate in the brain, and when the GHB wears off a few hours later, you are jolted awake with a beautiful feeling dopamine rush. But because it wakes you up after only 3 or 4 hours of sleep, you need to take another dose when the first wears off. Luckily, they're working on an extended-release, 8-hour formulation.
> I would like to order the liquid version too (for depression not smarts) but I dont know of a good pharmacy. Ill let you know if I find a good one
I know of several good pharmacies that sell Jumex along with many other smart drugs -- click my name at the top of this message to e-mail me about them if you'd like.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 3, 2003, at 11:56:03
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug » omegon, posted by loolot on October 3, 2003, at 11:43:23
I'm sure it wasn't cut with amphetamines since omegon said he took it only twice a week. If there were amphetamine in it, the stimulating effects would last six hours, at most -- not three or four days. :-)
Sounds like a simple hypersensitivity to me.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 3, 2003, at 12:01:51
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug » loolot, posted by Ame Sans Vie on October 3, 2003, at 11:56:03
When I reread the message and saw that tyramine caused problems at such a tiny dose, I'm convinced it's extreme hypersensitivity. Selegiline doesn't tend to cause the MAOI "cheese effect" until taken at high enough doses to inhibit MAO-A as well as MAO-B (i.e. 10mg+).
Posted by omegon on October 3, 2003, at 15:41:55
In reply to Re: has anyone tried senegine at a low smart drug » omegon, posted by loolot on October 3, 2003, at 11:43:23
Hi loolot,
More about selegiline: I did enjoy the stimulant effects - I'm a computer programmer, and it definitely helped with work; my thinking was sharper and more confident, and unlike with caffeine, it was easier to focus on what I wanted to. Caffeine tends to make me skip from one thing to another; I think fast, but not necessarily well!
Yes, I do have a problem with anxiety - my current diagnosis (in as much as the GP (UK doctor) has bothered to give me anything so formal) is depression with anxiety. With selegiline I was really more irritable than anxious. Do I have anhedonia, lack of energy and motivation? yeah; probably why I liked its dopamine effects. However, as I mentioned, some of the time it had weird effects on my thinking beyond the stimulant/focussing effect. I wouldn't go so far as to call it hypomania, but I found it somewhat uncomfortable. This was only a problem on the day of taking the 2.5mg and lasted for, say, five or six hours. The next two or three days the mood lift and improved concentration were still very noticeable, but the irritability was a lot less. There is no "comedown" at all, just a gradual return to "normal" mood over a few days.
I was using 1/2 Jumex 5mg tablets, QHI - appear to be manufacturer's original. I think it's very unlikely they were tampered with.
The main reason I stopped was the headaches, which were really very bad and lasted 10 hours plus. (I get very occasional migraine headaches, and the tyramine headaches were worse.) The anxiety/irritability/thought effects were tolerable, and easiest to manage by taking it after work; I'd then go out and see a movie or something (smart drugs go very well with cinema!) and be feeling "normal"-ish for work the next day, but still have improved mood and concentration; I don't like feeling "drugged" at work. Interestingly it never caused insomnia even taken 6 hours before bed, whereas caffeine does for me within 8 hours.
The only other "stimulant" I've used is piracetam, which works really well for a week and actually improves my anxiety, but then makes me edgy and depressed until I stop for a couple of weeks - weird, works best with very occasional use. Does not mix well with selegiline - much more irritability.
I agree that I seem to be very sensitive to this stuff - it's extremely unusual, from what I've read, to get tyramine headaches on such a low dose, or such a strong stimulant effect. There might have been some kind of interaction going on with whatever residual St John's Wort was left (note I had been on what I think was a fairly high dose of that for 5 months - hard to quantify), but the 5 week gap should have washed out most of it, from what I understand. I'm not about to take selegiline again to find out, though! I seem to be unusually sensitive to other stuff as well - paroxetine 20mg gives me heavy morning sedation and side effects even after 8 weeks, then anxiety in the afternoon as it wore off. My doctor is now switching me to venlaxafine XR; I'm hoping to find something with a smoother response.
I did seem to have a "crash" after a couple of weeks when I stopped selegiline, but I can't reliably distinguish this from the underlying depression. It was not a pleasant time in any case. I actually had similar withdrawals in the 5 weeks after (again, abruptly) stopping SJW.
Excuse me for rambling on; no sleep last night, I'm feeling a bit incoherent. I hope my experiences may help you! Anyway, be cautious; it's powerful stuff.
> Thanks so much for this information. The stimulating effects actually sound good to me. I am kind of spaced out and low energy. Do you have a tendency towards anxiety/stimulation or anhedonia, etc?
> What was the main reason you decided to stop the med? The headaches? Anxiety?
> Did you try liquid, pills or what? Could it be possible your meds were cut with an amphetemine? I have heard of this with overseas pharmacies. I think it is less likely with the liquid. Which pharm did you use?
This is the end of the thread.
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