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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jgaskins on September 24, 2003, at 15:16:15
How do you determine the behavior of a 3 year old to be just moody and hardheaded verses bipolar? His mother is currently on Prozac for mood disorders/depression. He has frequent mood swings and has trouble sleeping. He tends to be violent by hitting other children and does not listen to 'no'.
Posted by Pete C. on September 24, 2003, at 22:04:20
In reply to typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by jgaskins on September 24, 2003, at 15:16:15
I am not sure if any legal Doctor would ever diagnose a 3 year old with bipolar. At 3 years of age the brain is just beginning to develope the skills need for long term memory. I am not a doctor by any means but it just seems like it would be too early in the development stages to assume a child has a mental illness. Some things too look out for would be what his food diet is and what type of boundries are set for him at home. From working at a daycare to me these children would crop up once in a while and most of the time it was that they were just spoiled. The parents would let them do and eat what ever they wanted at home and when they came to daycare they wouldn't want to do anything or eat what we gave them. We accually had parents come in and argue that we should be buying the food their children want, watch the television when they want, and let them bully other children without punishment.
Posted by jgaskins on September 25, 2003, at 6:01:49
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by Pete C. on September 24, 2003, at 22:04:20
The mother of the boy does attempt to discipline him. She gets so tired of disciplining him that by the end of the day she basically gives up. The father allows the boy more free range.
It would make sense to me that if a family had an established pattern of bipolar disorder, that a child/baby with any symptoms would be diagnosed and given treatment as soon as possible. I had read that a baby of 18 months had been diagnosed bi polar.
Posted by Rainbowlight on September 25, 2003, at 13:40:23
In reply to typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by jgaskins on September 24, 2003, at 15:16:15
Some of those symptoms could just be a rowdy-rough 3 year old. It could also be ADD. I don't think he would be diagnosed at this young of an age. However, you could take him for an evaluation with a psychiatrist to see that he/she thinks the problem may be and to see if any help is available. Diet plays a big part too. I have a friend who's son was as you described. They changed his diet (he had some wheat/sugar issues) and he became a whole different person. Perhaps looking into his diet may help too.
Posted by Chicklet on September 26, 2003, at 0:49:48
In reply to typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by jgaskins on September 24, 2003, at 15:16:15
Hi there. I agree with Pete C and Rainbow about the diet, behavioral issues, etc.
I tmight be a little better if the mom of this little guy wrote here- if she's concerned. I work with kids this age as a speech pathologist. SOMEtimes a child may be dx'ed with it but it's very rare. pete's so right- you can't eke it out at this age. They aren't really "Mood swings" if it's a 3 year old. MANY little fellas go through this. Hitting other children and not listening to 'no' would indicate, to me, more of a behavioral issue. Bipolarity doesn't manifest itself the same in young kids as it does in adults either. There are other distinct patterns. There's a website I think...for kids with bp. I think that today we are much more aware of medical/developmental issues but that we also tend to pathologize behavior that is most likely typical. Double edged sword I guess.Bottom line is that he's almost positively too young and is just going through growing pains. Mom and Dad need to be VIGILANT with the discipline follow-through. At this age he knows that they will cave in and he can take that and run with it.
I too would recommend a consult with a Ped. psychiatrist or developmentalist. They can get referrals through the local school system.
Posted by pixygoth on September 26, 2003, at 7:33:22
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by Chicklet on September 26, 2003, at 0:49:48
The UK press at the moment is covered in stories about how a diet high in those fishy oils (i.e. eat mackerel etc.) can make the most astonishing difference, not just to childeren but adults too.
They are changing the diet given to prisoners in scottish jails, to see if the rate of disruptions and so on drops - so far the answer seems to be that it does.
Posted by Pete C. on September 27, 2003, at 13:03:53
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by jgaskins on September 25, 2003, at 6:01:49
Hey again,
Well it seems you've given a little more insite. Most of the time we underestimte how smart kids are at figuring things out. You say the mother trys but gives up disiplining him and father really doesn't at all. It seems that this guy knows if he keeps pushing he'll get his way eventually so he's not going to listen. Then at daycare when he trys the same thing but doesn't get his way he acts out. From that age I remember if someone used to treat me different then my mother would I wouldn't listen to them, they weren't my parents.
Posted by Ilene on September 27, 2003, at 14:39:45
In reply to typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by jgaskins on September 24, 2003, at 15:16:15
> How do you determine the behavior of a 3 year old to be just moody and hardheaded verses bipolar? His mother is currently on Prozac for mood disorders/depression. He has frequent mood swings and has trouble sleeping. He tends to be violent by hitting other children and does not listen to 'no'.
I had two 3-yr-olds, and not only were they different, they were different kids with different people. My daughter was hell on wheels (moody and hardheaded, didn't listen to "no") when she was with me, but other parents lavished praise on her after playdates, and her teachers adored her.
I don't think "mood swings" applies to pre-schoolers. They can go from smiles to tears to smiles in minutes. Many kids can't sleep well (but mine were logs--one slept through a major earthquake). Hitting other kids is probably more common than not. My daughter was a biter, but only for a little while.
Discipline is a matter of staying calm and following through. "Time outs" are supposed to give both parties a chance to get a grip. Speaking from experience, a depressed mom is going to have problems with this.
Having a depressed mom can lead to behavior problems all by itself.
The genetic potential of a mood disorder is there as well. I have no idea whether a mood disorder can be diagnosed in a preschooler.
If this kid is in school the teachers should know if he is truly out of line.
Ilene
Posted by jgaskins on October 8, 2003, at 10:02:27
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior? » jgaskins, posted by Ilene on September 27, 2003, at 14:39:45
Thanks for the follow-up. I appreciate everyone's input.
Posted by Cybele on October 9, 2003, at 13:32:28
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior?, posted by jgaskins on October 8, 2003, at 10:02:27
Ilene's post rocked. I echo everything she wrote. Also look for the book "Raising Your Spirited Child: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, Energetic" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. I am the mother of intelligent 4- and 6-year old boys. My older boy is energetic and doesn't need much sleep at all, which is tough enough, but my younger boy is stubborn (intransigent is a better word) and impulsive. I still need to hold his hand in a death-grip in parking lots.
Anyway, take a look at that book. It is especially hard when the mother is depressed, but the tools for dealing with spirited kids from that book will help her. I have been dx with dysthymia, although my current doctor is thinking it might be BP-II. Have been dealing with depression off and on since I was 13. I just started back on Wellbutrin and am finding it really hard not to snap at my 4-year old when he digs his heels in and refuses to go with the program (e.g., get dressed, help me pick up toys). I know this irritability will go away in a few weeks. Just keeping it together until then :)
Good luck!
Posted by Ilene on October 9, 2003, at 19:18:03
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior? » jgaskins, posted by Cybele on October 9, 2003, at 13:32:28
> Ilene's post rocked. I echo everything she wrote. Also look for the book "Raising Your Spirited Child: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, Energetic" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. I am the mother of intelligent 4- and 6-year old boys. My older boy is energetic and doesn't need much sleep at all, which is tough enough, but my younger boy is stubborn (intransigent is a better word) and impulsive. I still need to hold his hand in a death-grip in parking lots.
"Intransigent"! One of my favorite words. And yes, the death grip. My 17-yr-old complained about it just the other day. When she was 4 I used to grip her wrist so tightly that any movement was painful. I used to tie her to the stroller, too. You can imagine the looks I got.
What's strange is that at 17 she is not a risktaker. She's such a timid kid I sometimes worry about GAD/SP. She *did* agree to take the bus home from night school tonight because I am feeling sick. This is something that scares her, but she knows that I am afraid to drive at certain times.
>
The kids are 13 and 17. Much of the time the best thing I can do is withdraw. If I had known my life was going to be like this, and there was a genetic component to my ilnesses, I would never have had kids.Thanks for your post. I am having a bad day today. Everything *hurts*.
Ilene
Posted by Cybele on October 9, 2003, at 20:08:17
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior? » Cybele, posted by Ilene on October 9, 2003, at 19:18:03
I think things will actually be better for our kids because now we can recognize biochemical imbalances that make it hard coping in the modern world. I am positive that were we hunter-gatherers--busy all day collecting berries, making tools, hunting deer, moving house, skinning rabbits, etc.--we would be just fine. That is why this looks like a modern phenomenon. The world is too complex (we cram too many categories of information into our heads), we don't get enough exercise, our jobs are too specialized (my husband is a perpetually depressed cube-engineer). Since there is not the stigma of admitting you are having a hard time coping that there was for our parents, then I am sure our children will receive better care over the course of their lives.
I've pretty much been able to control my dysthymia or BP-II or BP-NOS (or whatever it is, LOL) over the years with exercise. If I stop exercising, one of my atypical depressions is sure to follow. I *know* my dad had dysthymia or BP-II or BP-NOS, but never sought help for it. He alternated between being "blue" and excited moods where he'd be off spending money he didn't have or inventing something "that will make me a million dollars." He died broke.
So, I can see how my spirited 4-year old will need extra guidance. Hopefully, making him exercise at least 5 days a week will do the trick. I sat around with a book every day until I was 16 and finally discovered cycling. We learn from our mistakes.
Take care.
Posted by Ilene on October 9, 2003, at 20:34:12
In reply to Re: typical 3 year old behavior? » Ilene, posted by Cybele on October 9, 2003, at 20:08:17
> I think things will actually be better for our kids because now we can recognize biochemical imbalances that make it hard coping in the modern world. Since there is not the stigma of admitting you are having a hard time coping that there was for our parents, then I am sure our children will receive better care over the course of their lives.
>No one recognized my depression, despite years of psychiatry. I figured it out all by myself, then I called a new psychiatrist. My depression is now out of control despite thousands of pills. Some of them worked for a while.
> I've pretty much been able to control my dysthymia or BP-II or BP-NOS (or whatever it is, LOL) over the years with exercise. If I stop exercising, one of my atypical depressions is sure to follow.
I know exercise is great for most people. I swam for years, and it made me sicker and sicker. I might have been better off if I hadn't tried so hard.
I have bad feet, so can't do walkies. I started yoga again, but it's no help anymore. Just hurts and reminds me of how much I've gone downhill.
Ilene
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