![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 16:34:23
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression - » snow man, posted by Susan J on August 21, 2003, at 8:50:48
I'd try about 3 gr/day (3000 mg/day) of EPA/DHA COMBINED!
Posted by matthhhh on August 21, 2003, at 20:02:20
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression -, posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 16:34:23
Anyone notice any benefits of tryptophan over 5 htp. I ve taken 5 htp didnt really do anything for me, but ive heard that tryptophan is an alternative. Does anyone know?
Posted by McPac on August 21, 2003, at 22:57:56
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression -, posted by matthhhh on August 21, 2003, at 20:02:20
I've asked Larry in a thread above to help you with that question.....he REALLY knows his stuff...in THEORY you'd think tryptophan and 5htp MIGHT help a lot of folks, being precursors to serotonin...I know it IS suggested in many non-medical venues as worth trying....I'll be interested to see what the Hoovermeister has to say on the subject!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 8:17:36
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression -, posted by snow man on August 21, 2003, at 3:46:32
> i've been taking fish oil "food supplements" for a year or so now. i can't say that i've noticed any change in how it's affected my depression. but from what i've read there are other health benefits so i guess, in that sense, it's still a good thing.
Quite correct. There are many health advantages to fish oil, even if you don't notice mood effects. I worded that last phrase quite purposely. You may not notice the psych effects, because we aren't likely to pick up on subtle or gentle change. If you keep a mood diary, or the like, you may find that your mood has stabilized. That is the primary psych effect, IMHO.
> i have had a bit of a challenge in understanding the dosage "concentrations". the labeling seems to be somewhat proprietary between manufacturers and sort of hard to compare one bottle to another. anyone have some insight here?
Believe it or not (please believe), the vast majority of fish oil supps in North America come from a single manufacturer, which does all the purification and encapsulation. Some premium products are exceptions to that, but I still wonder if they're worth the extra money.
About labels, and what they mean, I'd be happy to help with that, if you'd post a couple examples.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 8:28:09
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression -, posted by Bill L on August 21, 2003, at 8:57:52
> My wife takes fish oil due to potentially beneficial effects for arthritis.
>
> Larry would know about that.If she's using fish oil for arthritis, she should also take (at the same time) another oil containing gamma-linolenic acid (GLA). Common examples are evening primrose and borage oils. Borage oil has twice the concentration of GLA as evening primrose, so I think it's a better buy.
When taken with fish oil, the GLA is shunted into a unique form of anti-inflammatory prostaglandins, because the fish oil has a stronger affinity for the elongation enzymes that would otherwise convert the GLA into pro-inflammatory substances.
>The only thing I know is that you want a good quality brand if you take large doses because the better quality companies use an expensive procedure to filter out the mercury. Mercury can be bad for your nervous system.
Yes, mercury is bad for the nervous system. But, there is no mercury in commercial fish oils, of any sort. First, they would be blocked from market (there are standards for food supplements). Second, it's inherent in the processing of the fish oil that mercury is removed altogether. Mercury strongly binds to protein (that's why it's toxic in the first place). Moreover, it's not soluble in lipids (oils). So, when the crude fish oil is purified to remove all traces of protein (something that happens to all fish oil), the mercury is removed completely. I could provide a link to lab results for commercial fish oils, showing all had N.D. (not detectable, at the detection limit of 0.3 parts per billion) mercury content, but I hope you'll take my word for it. There is more mercury in tap water in some places, and *that* is quite legal.Lar
Posted by Bill L on August 22, 2003, at 9:10:44
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury » Bill L , posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 8:28:09
I was reading about a fish oil preparation advertised by a physician who said that his preparation was more expensive because he used an expensive filtering device to eliminate almost all of the mercury. From what you are saying, it sounds like he was being less than honest. I can't remember the guy's name right now.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 10:22:08
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury, posted by Bill L on August 22, 2003, at 9:10:44
> I was reading about a fish oil preparation advertised by a physician who said that his preparation was more expensive because he used an expensive filtering device to eliminate almost all of the mercury. From what you are saying, it sounds like he was being less than honest. I can't remember the guy's name right now.
If the phrase "molecularly distilled" rings a bell, then he was being less than honest. That phrase comes from the website of the wholesaler which produces the vast majority of all fish oil products in North America. Frankly, the very term molecularly distilled is bad science. As a chemist, I cringe every time I see it.
Lar
Posted by Susan J on August 22, 2003, at 10:36:27
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury » Bill L , posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 8:28:09
Larry,
>>Mercury strongly binds to protein (that's why it's toxic in the first place). Moreover, it's not soluble in lipids (oils). So, when the crude fish oil is purified to remove all traces of protein (something that happens to all fish oil), the mercury is removed completely.
<<It must be really cool to be a chemist. I wish I knew stuff like that. It's tough (for me) to research when I'm not really sure *what* to look for.
Thanks for the info.
Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 13:21:41
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on August 22, 2003, at 10:36:27
> Larry,
>
> >>Mercury strongly binds to protein (that's why it's toxic in the first place). Moreover, it's not soluble in lipids (oils). So, when the crude fish oil is purified to remove all traces of protein (something that happens to all fish oil), the mercury is removed completely.
>
> <<It must be really cool to be a chemist. I wish I knew stuff like that. It's tough (for me) to research when I'm not really sure *what* to look for.
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> SusanFeel free to "borrow" my brain, as needed.
Lar
Posted by tealady on August 22, 2003, at 21:03:24
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury » Bill L , posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 10:22:08
> > I was reading about a fish oil preparation advertised by a physician who said that his preparation was more expensive because he used an expensive filtering device to eliminate almost all of the mercury. From what you are saying, it sounds like he was being less than honest. I can't remember the guy's name right now.
>
I was reading yesterday about this too...http://www.iherb.com/fishoil1.html I think the Rx Omega 3 by Dr Murray. It certainly implies that some other fish oils contain mercury by the statement "only fish product in the market that has the wording " Pharmaceutical Grade" on the label.
"> If the phrase "molecularly distilled" rings a bell, then he was being less than honest. That phrase comes from the website of the wholesaler which produces the vast majority of all fish oil products in North America. Frankly, the very term molecularly distilled is bad science. As a chemist, I cringe every time I see it.
Yep,saw that too on iherb, couldn't figure out what it meant.
I was told yesterday by a company selling fish oil here that they purchase the top grade of 5 grades of fish oil. Also they don't remove the mercury from fish oil as(according to this guy) chlorine is used to remove the mercury and then people have "green urine", so it's better to leave the mercury in.....on the lesser evil argument
I did find the "green urine" bit hard to believe!Lar thank you for explaning it,
I have just been told today that the Australian standards are .05? for fish oil in mercury and it is all tested.
I have ordered some MaxEpa which apparently is sourced from deep water fish, and the fish oil is sourced from England, then tested for mercury levels in Australia..according to a naturopath I have just been speaking to. Guess there must be traces of mercury still in the oil?
You'd think the Australian southern waters would be ideal to set up a "clean fish" oil industry from, instead of sourcing from o/seas,sigh.
The doc who I got the idea of mercury in fish from is http://www.mercola.com/2001/apr/25/mercury_fish.htm but that is fish, not fish oil.Thanks for explaining all of this..just spent a day trying to figure it out, lol.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on August 23, 2003, at 19:13:02
In reply to Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression - , posted by Susan J on August 19, 2003, at 14:30:03
The range of conditions both physical and mental that can be affected by omega-3 fatty acids is quite large and I have updated some information in my site at www.omega3.20megsfree.com
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 11:43:51
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury, posted by tealady on August 22, 2003, at 21:03:24
> > > I was reading about a fish oil preparation advertised by a physician who said that his preparation was more expensive because he used an expensive filtering device to eliminate almost all of the mercury. From what you are saying, it sounds like he was being less than honest. I can't remember the guy's name right now.
> >
> I was reading yesterday about this too...http://www.iherb.com/fishoil1.html I think the Rx Omega 3 by Dr Murray. It certainly implies that some other fish oils contain mercury by the statement "only fish product in the market that has the wording " Pharmaceutical Grade" on the label.That is meaningless, in this context. Advertising hype.
> > If the phrase "molecularly distilled" rings a bell, then he was being less than honest. That phrase comes from the website of the wholesaler which produces the vast majority of all fish oil products in North America. Frankly, the very term molecularly distilled is bad science. As a chemist, I cringe every time I see it.
>
> Yep,saw that too on iherb, couldn't figure out what it meant.
>
> I was told yesterday by a company selling fish oil here that they purchase the top grade of 5 grades of fish oil.As do *all* other firms marketing fish oil for human consumption.
> Also they don't remove the mercury from fish oil as(according to this guy) chlorine is used to remove the mercury and then people have "green urine", so it's better to leave the mercury in.....on the lesser evil argument
That is so bizarre, I don't know where to begin.
> I did find the "green urine" bit hard to believe!
See, you know more than you realize. More than that idiot you spoke to, fer sure.
> Lar thank you for explaning it,
>
> I have just been told today that the Australian standards are .05? for fish oil in mercury and it is all tested..05 what? Units are essential here.
The risk of mercury contamination wouldn't come from fish oil, per se. It would arise from greedy morons trying to sell crude fish oils (cheap) in place of the more expensive products.
One of the issues with fish oils is that they retain fat-soluble contaminants. Things like DDT, PCBs, dioxins. That happens to be my area of expertise. I'm an environmental toxicologist, an applied specialty within chemistry as a whole. There is nothing unique about finding fat-soluble toxicants in fish oils. They're everywhere. You can't avoid them. You breathe them in, every day. They're in your cookies. Your pork. Your olive oil.
If you want to get some idea of the contamination of foodstuffs, do a websearch using "MAFF food surveillance".
Fish oil is tested for these toxicants, as well as for mercury. The levels permitted are sort of the scientific equivalent of "we can't block it all, but this much is unlikely to hurt anyone". I have no concern whatsoever in recommending fish oils for general health. The benefits far, far, exceed any increased risk.
> I have ordered some MaxEpa which apparently is sourced from deep water fish, and the fish oil is sourced from England, then tested for mercury levels in Australia..according to a naturopath I have just been speaking to. Guess there must be traces of mercury still in the oil?
Only if there are traces of protein present, and you'd know that right away. Your nose is finely tuned to the smell of protein breakdown products (stuff with suggestive names like cadaverine, putrescine, and so forth). Even if you swallowed some, by capsule, your eructation (burping) of dead fish tasting vapours, would alert you to the impurity of the oil.
Even the issue of mercury in fresh fish may be totally overblown, because fish also have high levels of selenium, which detoxifies the mercury in finned creatures just as well as it does in us. The laboratory process whereby mercury in fish is measured measures total mercury, not just free mercury (i.e. mercury not associated with selenium). Only the latter could do you any harm. And they don't measure the ratio, or the separate bits.
> You'd think the Australian southern waters would be ideal to set up a "clean fish" oil industry from, instead of sourcing from o/seas,sigh.
Should be, actually. Green-lipped mussels are a good source of oemga-threes, and selenium and zinc, if I recall correctly. It's more a case of the cost of start-up vs. existing producers of fish oils. Fish oil is used in aquaculture (fish farming), so fish oil extraction and processing seems to be most commonly found in places that farm fish. I'd have to guess Aussies done't do much fish farming.
> The doc who I got the idea of mercury in fish from is http://www.mercola.com/2001/apr/25/mercury_fish.htm but that is fish, not fish oil.
That's an excellent reference to the species-dependent mercury exposure. The lower down the food chain you eat is probably better, but even tuna and swordfish may be safe, if the selenium content is there.
> Thanks for explaining all of this..just spent a day trying to figure it out, lol.Knowledge is a journey, not a destination, eh? Glad you're along for the trip.
Lar
Posted by galkeepinon on August 24, 2003, at 23:48:51
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression - , posted by Ed O`Flaherty on August 23, 2003, at 19:13:02
I've seen threads about these Omega 3 fatty Acids sometimes but thought they were hogwash, but ya know, I've never given them a chance. My friend said today she swore by them!!
Does anyone know of a site that could tell me info on what exactly they do for depression, what kind to buy, dosaging, etc.???
I am guilty for not taking the advice earlier, but I guess it's true~~you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
I'm really interested in trying these Fatty Acids out, my thoughts before were 'can't I just eat a whole bunch of salmon' *embarrased*
Anyone have info?
Thanks:-)
> The range of conditions both physical and mental that can be affected by omega-3 fatty acids is quite large and I have updated some information in my site at www.omega3.20megsfree.com
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 8:04:20
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression - » Ed O`Flaherty, posted by galkeepinon on August 24, 2003, at 23:48:51
> I've seen threads about these Omega 3 fatty Acids sometimes but thought they were hogwash, but ya know, I've never given them a chance. My friend said today she swore by them!!
I do, too.
> Does anyone know of a site that could tell me info on what exactly they do for depression, what kind to buy, dosaging, etc.???
Ed's site (http://www.omega3.20megsfree.com) has some explanations, and links to other sites with more info.
Here are some more:
http://www.oilofpisces.com/depression.html
http://www.oilofpisces.com/fishdata.html
http://vvv.com/healthnews/fishoils.html
http://puterakembara.org/rm/EFA.htmSimply put, omega-3 fatty acids help keep brain cell membranes healthy, and keep the receptors that work with all the various neurotransmitters functioning at their best. Omega-3s from fish oil are also transformed into numerous signalling compounds, things that regulate inflammation and your immune system, cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood, among other things. They're just plain good for you.
> I am guilty for not taking the advice earlier, but I guess it's true~~you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Aah, but now you're thirsty.
> I'm really interested in trying these Fatty Acids out, my thoughts before were 'can't I just eat a whole bunch of salmon' *embarrased*
Eating a whole bunch of salmon would be better, in my opinion. It is possible, however, that the concentrated form in which fish oil capsules are taken provides additional benefits just because they're concentrated. But, fish contains many other really good things your body and brain needs, such as DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol), and substantial amounts of minerals. Some fish is contaminated with pollution, which may be a consideration in Britain (e.g. farmed salmon from the North Sea). There are pros and cons to both concepts.
In either case (fish and/or fish oil), make sure you take fat some vitamin E, and/or alphalipoic acid, because fish oils oxidize quite readily.
> Anyone have info?
> Thanks:-)Here are a few abstracts, which I selected for their general content.
Psychiatr Serv. 2001 Apr;52(4):529-31.
Fish consumption and depressive symptoms in the general population in Finland.Tanskanen A, Hibbeln JR, Tuomilehto J, Uutela A, Haukkala A, Viinamaki H, Lehtonen J, Vartiainen E.
Department of Psychiatry, University of Kuopio, Finland. antti.tanskanen@kuh.fi
Fish contains high concentrations of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Several studies have reported depletions of omega-3 fats among depressed patients, and a cross-national comparison has revealed a significant inverse correlation between annual prevalence of major depression and fish consumption. In a sample of 3,204 Finnish adults, depressive symptoms were estimated with the Beck Depression Inventory. A frequency question was used to measure fish consumption. Multiple logistic regression analysis was conducted to assess the association between depression and fish consumption. After the analysis adjusted for potential confounders, the likelihood of having depressive symptoms was significantly higher among infrequent fish consumers than among frequent consumers.
Am J Psychiatry. 2002 Mar;159(3):477-9.
Addition of omega-3 fatty acid to maintenance medication treatment for recurrent unipolar depressive disorder.Nemets B, Stahl Z, Belmaker RH.
Ministry of Health Mental Health Center, Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Beer-Sheva, Israel.
OBJECTIVE: Studies have reported that countries with high rates of fish oil consumption have low rates of depressive disorder. The authors studied a specific omega-3 fatty acid, the ethyl ester of eicosapentaenoic acid (E-EPA), as an adjunct to treatment for depressive episodes occurring in patients with recurrent unipolar depressive disorder who were receiving maintenance antidepressant therapy. METHOD: Twenty patients with a current diagnosis of major depressive disorder participated in a 4-week, parallel-group, double-blind addition of either placebo or E-EPA to ongoing antidepressant therapy. Seventeen of the patients were women, and three were men. RESULTS: Highly significant benefits of the addition of the omega-3 fatty acid compared with placebo were found by week 3 of treatment. CONCLUSIONS: It is not possible to distinguish whether E-EPA augments antidepressant action in the manner of lithium or has independent antidepressant properties of its own.
Biomed Pharmacother. 2002 Oct;56(8):365-79.The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids.
Simopoulos AP.
The Center for Genetics, Nutrition and Health, Washington, DC 20009, USA. cgnh@bellatlantic.net
Several sources of information suggest that human beings evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids (EFA) of approximately 1 whereas in Western diets the ratio is 15/1-16.7/1. Western diets are deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, and have excessive amounts of omega-6 fatty acids compared with the diet on which human beings evolved and their genetic patterns were established. Excessive amounts of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) and a very high omega-6/omega-3 ratio, as is found in today's Western diets, promote the pathogenesis of many diseases, including cardiovascular disease, cancer, and inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, whereas increased levels of omega-3 PUFA (a low omega-6/omega-3 ratio) exert suppressive effects. In the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease, a ratio of 4/1 was associated with a 70% decrease in total mortality. A ratio of 2.5/1 reduced rectal cell proliferation in patients with colorectal cancer, whereas a ratio of 4/1 with the same amount of omega-3 PUFA had no effect. The lower omega-6/omega-3 ratio in women with breast cancer was associated with decreased risk. A ratio of 2-3/1 suppressed inflammation in patients with rheumatoid arthritis, and a ratio of 5/1 had a beneficial effect on patients with asthma, whereas a ratio of 10/1 had adverse consequences. These studies indicate that the optimal ratio may vary with the disease under consideration. This is consistent with the fact that chronic diseases are multigenic and multifactorial. Therefore, it is quite possible that the therapeutic dose of omega-3 fatty acids will depend on the degree of severity of disease resulting from the genetic predisposition. A lower ratio of omega-6/omega-3 fatty acids is more desirable in reducing the risk of many of the chronic diseases of high prevalence in Western societies, as well as in the developing countries, that are being exported to the rest of the world.
J Nutr. 1998 Dec;128(12):2512-9.
Dietary fish oil affects monoaminergic neurotransmission and behavior in rats.Chalon S, Delion-Vancassel S, Belzung C, Guilloteau D, Leguisquet AM, Besnard JC, Durand G.
INSERM U316, Laboratoire de Biophysique Medicale et Pharmaceutique, 37200 Tours, France.
We studied the effects of a fish oil enriched diet on fatty acid composition of cerebral membranes and on several neurochemical and behavioral variables of monoaminergic function in rats. The frontal cortex, striatum, hippocampus and cerebellum were studied in rats fed fish oil (FPO, 50% salmon oil + 50% palm oil), which provided an (n-6)/(n-3) polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) ratio of 0.14 versus 6. 19 in controls fed a diet containing a mixture of African peanut oil and rapeseed oil. In the FPO group compared to the control group, the major modifications in fatty acid composition of cerebral membranes included the following: higher levels in 22:6(n-3), lower levels in 20:4(n-6) and a significantly greater proportion of phosphatidylserine. Dopamine levels were 40% greater in the frontal cortex of rats fed FPO than from those fed the control diet. In this cerebral region there was also a reduction in monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) activity and greater binding to dopamine D2 receptors. By contrast, a lower binding to dopamine D2 receptors (-7%) was observed in the striatum. Ambulatory activity was also reduced in FPO-fed rats, possibly related to observed changes in striatal dopaminergic receptors. This suggested that the level of (n-6) PUFA, which was considerably lower in the FPO diet than in the control diet, could act on locomotion through an effect on striatal dopaminergic function, whereas the high level of (n-3) PUFA could act on cortical dopaminergic function.
Lipids. 1999 Feb;34(2):161-9.Effects of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids on neuronal function.
Fernstrom JD.
Department of Psychiatry, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, Pennsylvania 15213, USA. fernstromjd@msx.upmc.edu
Diets deficient in linoleic acid (18:2n-6), or that have unusual ratios of linoleic acid to alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) induce changes in the polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) composition of neuronal and glial membranes. Such changes have been linked to alterations in retina and brain function. These functional effects are presumed to follow from the biochemical consequences of modifying membrane PUFA content; known effects include modifications in membrane fluidity, in the activities of membrane-associated, functional proteins (transporters, receptors, enzymes), and in the production of important signaling molecules from oxygenated linoleic and alpha-linolenic acid derivatives. However, despite the demonstration that central nervous system function changes when dietary PUFA intake is altered, and that in general, membrane PUFA content influences membrane functions, little work has focused specifically on brain and retina to reveal the underlying biochemical bases for such effects. This review examines this issue, looking at known effects of dietary PUFA on neurons in both the central and peripheral nervous systems, and attempts to identify some approaches that might promote productive investigation into the underlying mechanisms relating changes in dietary PUFA intake to alterations in neuronal and overall nervous system functioning.
Posted by danidnyelm on August 25, 2003, at 12:03:14
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 11:43:51
Lar,
I am glad that someone with your knowledge is contributing to this discussion.
You say that the same wholesale fish oil producer is responsible for all fish oils in the US. Can you share the name of that producer?
I am interested in formulating products for nutritional support and am very interested in knowing who the fish oil manufacturer is.
Thank you for your time.
Danielle
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 13:19:10
In reply to Re: fish oil, arthritis, and mercury » Larry Hoover, posted by danidnyelm on August 25, 2003, at 12:03:14
> Lar,
>
> I am glad that someone with your knowledge is contributing to this discussion.
>
> You say that the same wholesale fish oil producer is responsible for all fish oils in the US.What I believe I said was that there was a strong likelihood that one producer was responsible for all products using the term "molecularly distilled", or something to that effect. Certainly, most of the fish oil products on the shelves are purchased from jobbers, rather than manufactured by dozens of individual companies.
> Can you share the name of that producer?
The fish oil encapsulator that coined the term "molecularly distilled" is Ocean Nutrition Canada Ltd. The page that had that key phrase is being revised, at present, but it was at:
http://www.ocean-nutrition.com/productsandservices/omega3.htmElsewhere on the website, you will discover that
"ONC is the only company in North America, and one of only six worldwide, able to produce commercial quantities of concentrated fish oil. "So, it looks like your Omegabrite, and similar products, are produced here (under contract), if they are made in North America. I'm sure that information like that is proprietary and confidential. I'm making assumptions.
The link I provided used to give a variety of different selections for EPA/DHA ratios, capsule size, and so on. They'll bottle it for you, under your own label (you have to supply the label).
> I am interested in formulating products for nutritional support and am very interested in knowing who the fish oil manufacturer is.
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> DanielleYou're welcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 13:57:02
In reply to Re: fish oil wholesaler » danidnyelm, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 13:19:10
>
> So, it looks like your Omegabrite, and similar products, are produced here (under contract), if they are made in North America. I'm sure that information like that is proprietary and confidential. I'm making assumptions.Here's the page for the bulk 45% EPA, 5% DHA fish oil (similar to omegabrite). I found it with their search page.
http://www.ocean-nutrition.com/productsandservices/4505.htm
Posted by galkeepinon on August 25, 2003, at 21:39:42
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression - » galkeepinon, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 8:04:20
Lar, Thank you so very much for your thoughtfulness for all this great information. It is very much appreciated-as always! You are such an asset to this board.
I am going to give these fatty acids a try, I'm sure you'll hear about my progress on the boards;)
Thanks again!:-)
galkeepinon> > I've seen threads about these Omega 3 fatty Acids sometimes but thought they were hogwash, but ya know, I've never given them a chance. My friend said today she swore by them!!
>
> I do, too.
>
> > Does anyone know of a site that could tell me info on what exactly they do for depression, what kind to buy, dosaging, etc.???
>
> Ed's site (http://www.omega3.20megsfree.com) has some explanations, and links to other sites with more info.
>
> Here are some more:
> http://www.oilofpisces.com/depression.html
> http://www.oilofpisces.com/fishdata.html
> http://vvv.com/healthnews/fishoils.html
> http://puterakembara.org/rm/EFA.htm
>
> Simply put, omega-3 fatty acids help keep brain cell membranes healthy, and keep the receptors that work with all the various neurotransmitters functioning at their best. Omega-3s from fish oil are also transformed into numerous signalling compounds, things that regulate inflammation and your immune system, cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood, among other things. They're just plain good for you.
>
> > I am guilty for not taking the advice earlier, but I guess it's true~~you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
>
> Aah, but now you're thirsty.
>
> > I'm really interested in trying these Fatty Acids out, my thoughts before were 'can't I just eat a whole bunch of salmon' *embarrased*
>
> Eating a whole bunch of salmon would be better, in my opinion. It is possible, however, that the concentrated form in which fish oil capsules are taken provides additional benefits just because they're concentrated. But, fish contains many other really good things your body and brain needs, such as DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol), and substantial amounts of minerals. Some fish is contaminated with pollution, which may be a consideration in Britain (e.g. farmed salmon from the North Sea). There are pros and cons to both concepts.
>
> In either case (fish and/or fish oil), make sure you take fat some vitamin E, and/or alphalipoic acid, because fish oils oxidize quite readily.
>
> > Anyone have info?
> > Thanks:-)
>
> Here are a few abstracts, which I selected for their general content.
>
>
> Psychiatr Serv. 2001 Apr;52(4):529-31.
>
> Fish consumption and depressive symptoms in the general population in Finland.
>
> Tanskanen A, Hibbeln JR, Tuomilehto J, Uutela A, Haukkala A, Viinamaki H, Lehtonen J, Vartiainen E.
>
> Department of Psychiatry, University of Kuopio, Finland. antti.tanskanen@kuh.fi
>
> Fish contains high concentrations of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Several studies have reported depletions of omega-3 fats among depressed patients, and a cross-national comparison has revealed a significant inverse correlation between annual prevalence of major depression and fish consumption. In a sample of 3,204 Finnish adults, depressive symptoms were estimated with the Beck Depression Inventory. A frequency question was used to measure fish consumption. Multiple logistic regression analysis was conducted to assess the association between depression and fish consumption. After the analysis adjusted for potential confounders, the likelihood of having depressive symptoms was significantly higher among infrequent fish consumers than among frequent consumers.
>
>
> Am J Psychiatry. 2002 Mar;159(3):477-9.
>
> Addition of omega-3 fatty acid to maintenance medication treatment for recurrent unipolar depressive disorder.
>
> Nemets B, Stahl Z, Belmaker RH.
>
> Ministry of Health Mental Health Center, Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Beer-Sheva, Israel.
>
> OBJECTIVE: Studies have reported that countries with high rates of fish oil consumption have low rates of depressive disorder. The authors studied a specific omega-3 fatty acid, the ethyl ester of eicosapentaenoic acid (E-EPA), as an adjunct to treatment for depressive episodes occurring in patients with recurrent unipolar depressive disorder who were receiving maintenance antidepressant therapy. METHOD: Twenty patients with a current diagnosis of major depressive disorder participated in a 4-week, parallel-group, double-blind addition of either placebo or E-EPA to ongoing antidepressant therapy. Seventeen of the patients were women, and three were men. RESULTS: Highly significant benefits of the addition of the omega-3 fatty acid compared with placebo were found by week 3 of treatment. CONCLUSIONS: It is not possible to distinguish whether E-EPA augments antidepressant action in the manner of lithium or has independent antidepressant properties of its own.
>
>
> Biomed Pharmacother. 2002 Oct;56(8):365-79.
>
> The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids.
>
> Simopoulos AP.
>
> The Center for Genetics, Nutrition and Health, Washington, DC 20009, USA. cgnh@bellatlantic.net
>
> Several sources of information suggest that human beings evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids (EFA) of approximately 1 whereas in Western diets the ratio is 15/1-16.7/1. Western diets are deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, and have excessive amounts of omega-6 fatty acids compared with the diet on which human beings evolved and their genetic patterns were established. Excessive amounts of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) and a very high omega-6/omega-3 ratio, as is found in today's Western diets, promote the pathogenesis of many diseases, including cardiovascular disease, cancer, and inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, whereas increased levels of omega-3 PUFA (a low omega-6/omega-3 ratio) exert suppressive effects. In the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease, a ratio of 4/1 was associated with a 70% decrease in total mortality. A ratio of 2.5/1 reduced rectal cell proliferation in patients with colorectal cancer, whereas a ratio of 4/1 with the same amount of omega-3 PUFA had no effect. The lower omega-6/omega-3 ratio in women with breast cancer was associated with decreased risk. A ratio of 2-3/1 suppressed inflammation in patients with rheumatoid arthritis, and a ratio of 5/1 had a beneficial effect on patients with asthma, whereas a ratio of 10/1 had adverse consequences. These studies indicate that the optimal ratio may vary with the disease under consideration. This is consistent with the fact that chronic diseases are multigenic and multifactorial. Therefore, it is quite possible that the therapeutic dose of omega-3 fatty acids will depend on the degree of severity of disease resulting from the genetic predisposition. A lower ratio of omega-6/omega-3 fatty acids is more desirable in reducing the risk of many of the chronic diseases of high prevalence in Western societies, as well as in the developing countries, that are being exported to the rest of the world.
>
>
> J Nutr. 1998 Dec;128(12):2512-9.
>
> Dietary fish oil affects monoaminergic neurotransmission and behavior in rats.
>
> Chalon S, Delion-Vancassel S, Belzung C, Guilloteau D, Leguisquet AM, Besnard JC, Durand G.
>
> INSERM U316, Laboratoire de Biophysique Medicale et Pharmaceutique, 37200 Tours, France.
>
> We studied the effects of a fish oil enriched diet on fatty acid composition of cerebral membranes and on several neurochemical and behavioral variables of monoaminergic function in rats. The frontal cortex, striatum, hippocampus and cerebellum were studied in rats fed fish oil (FPO, 50% salmon oil + 50% palm oil), which provided an (n-6)/(n-3) polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) ratio of 0.14 versus 6. 19 in controls fed a diet containing a mixture of African peanut oil and rapeseed oil. In the FPO group compared to the control group, the major modifications in fatty acid composition of cerebral membranes included the following: higher levels in 22:6(n-3), lower levels in 20:4(n-6) and a significantly greater proportion of phosphatidylserine. Dopamine levels were 40% greater in the frontal cortex of rats fed FPO than from those fed the control diet. In this cerebral region there was also a reduction in monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) activity and greater binding to dopamine D2 receptors. By contrast, a lower binding to dopamine D2 receptors (-7%) was observed in the striatum. Ambulatory activity was also reduced in FPO-fed rats, possibly related to observed changes in striatal dopaminergic receptors. This suggested that the level of (n-6) PUFA, which was considerably lower in the FPO diet than in the control diet, could act on locomotion through an effect on striatal dopaminergic function, whereas the high level of (n-3) PUFA could act on cortical dopaminergic function.
>
>
> Lipids. 1999 Feb;34(2):161-9.
>
> Effects of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids on neuronal function.
>
> Fernstrom JD.
>
> Department of Psychiatry, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, Pennsylvania 15213, USA. fernstromjd@msx.upmc.edu
>
> Diets deficient in linoleic acid (18:2n-6), or that have unusual ratios of linoleic acid to alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) induce changes in the polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) composition of neuronal and glial membranes. Such changes have been linked to alterations in retina and brain function. These functional effects are presumed to follow from the biochemical consequences of modifying membrane PUFA content; known effects include modifications in membrane fluidity, in the activities of membrane-associated, functional proteins (transporters, receptors, enzymes), and in the production of important signaling molecules from oxygenated linoleic and alpha-linolenic acid derivatives. However, despite the demonstration that central nervous system function changes when dietary PUFA intake is altered, and that in general, membrane PUFA content influences membrane functions, little work has focused specifically on brain and retina to reveal the underlying biochemical bases for such effects. This review examines this issue, looking at known effects of dietary PUFA on neurons in both the central and peripheral nervous systems, and attempts to identify some approaches that might promote productive investigation into the underlying mechanisms relating changes in dietary PUFA intake to alterations in neuronal and overall nervous system functioning.
>
>
Posted by JCS on November 22, 2003, at 8:48:50
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression - » Larry Hoover, posted by galkeepinon on August 25, 2003, at 21:39:42
Hello, guys! I am a new participant in the group. Like everyone else, I would like to thank Larry Hoover for sharing his knowledge with the group.
I have read every posting in this thread and am encouraged by everyone's willingness to share their own experiences.
I joined this group because I want to share my experience and new strategy that I am beginning today! (I know, I know--I've always had a problem with the overuse of exclamation marks!)
Anyway, like most people that have struggled with depression and anxiety problems for years, I have tried several medications and combinations thereof. I've had to deal with the side effects of all of these. My latest combo is Clonazapem and Celexa, and prior to that I took Effexor, and prior to that Serzone(horrible!), and prior to that Wellbutrin, .........and so on and on back to my original med, Prozac, in 1994.
Last night, I had an epiphany (or mad idea) and I decided to just stop taking the Clonazapem and Celexa cold turkey! I can't live my life as a drugged out zombie anymore! So, I'm gonna increase my Fish Oil dosage to eight 1000mg capsules per day. That would mean 2400mg of Omega-3 fatty acids per day. Hopefully, I will lose the side effects, keep my depression/anxiety in check, and gain other health benefits related to arthritis and high blood pressure/cholesterol.
Larry, I read in one of your earlier posts that you recommended or assumed that people taking omega-3 fatty acids for depression would probably still have to be on a depression medication. So, I know the risk I am taking. I hope I can be the exception to that. It can't hurt to try.
I will let you know how I'm doing, in about 4 weeks. Take care and pray for me. Juan
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 9:02:26
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression -, posted by JCS on November 22, 2003, at 8:48:50
> Last night, I had an epiphany (or mad idea) and I decided to just stop taking the Clonazapem and Celexa cold turkey!
Madness. Sudden withdrawal of either drug can cause horrific symptoms, much worse than the side effects you experience on either drug. Sudden clonazepam withdrawal can even be fatal.
> So, I know the risk I am taking.
No, I don't think you do.
> I hope I can be the exception to that.
You won't be.
> It can't hurt to try.
Yes, it can.
> I will let you know how I'm doing, in about 4 weeks. Take care and pray for me. Juan
I will be praying, all right.....that you read this message.
Lar
Posted by JCS on November 22, 2003, at 9:58:34
In reply to Re: sudden withdrawal is a bad idea! » JCS, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 9:02:26
Well, after having breakfast with my mom, whom I've had to move in with me due to her accelerating Alzheimer's, I've decided to heed your advise, Larry, and wean myself off the Clonazapem. I had already begun taking just half of a 1mg tab four times a day. So, I will just take half of tab twice a day now. If I notice my anxiety and anger levels increasing significantly, I will increase the Clonazapem dosage again. Thanks again.
Posted by linkadge on November 22, 2003, at 10:27:24
In reply to Re: sudden withdrawal is a bad idea!, posted by JCS on November 22, 2003, at 9:58:34
I found great releif when I added fish oil to
my regime of Celexa and folic acid.Enough so that I stopped taking the celexa completely.
This was a bad move for me. I *never* got back the responce I had to the combination. It has been a year, it lead to a downward spiral that has never fully recovered. In fact, when I tried to restart the Celexa on the fish oil, I became manic, long story.
I am just giving you my side, it may work fine for you, but just be carefull, and remember that if you are feeling good, then this may be worth the side effects.
Remember you are seeing your envisioned state, through the eyes of *all* your current medicaitons.
Posted by JCS on November 22, 2003, at 10:52:18
In reply to I did exactly this., posted by linkadge on November 22, 2003, at 10:27:24
Thanks for sharing your experience!
I realize I'm taking a huge risk, but I feel I need to do something now if I am ever going to be well without prescription drugs. Presently, I am on Long-Term Disability from my old employer, but that benefit could end at any time. After that, I definitely won't be able to afford the prescription medications.
I am also increasing my practice of my yoga exercises to two or three times a week instead of just once.
And of course, I am a big believer in prayer.
Thanks again. Juan
Posted by glenn on November 23, 2003, at 16:06:20
In reply to Re: I did exactly this., posted by JCS on November 22, 2003, at 10:52:18
See my post above about getting off celexa, I agree with linky and Larry absolutely, I did this with amisulpride, not a known problem causer, ok for 6 days then wham!!
Please dont risk it, by all means come off but slowly!!!Glenn
Posted by polarbear206 on November 24, 2003, at 11:27:37
In reply to Re: Omega 3 Fatty Acids and Depression -, posted by JCS on November 22, 2003, at 8:48:50
This is the end of the thread.
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