![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ima on August 13, 2003, at 12:55:47
Let me try this again. Ill try to be more plain. Can someone understand my fears? Am I the only depressed person who is more afraid of the cure than the disease?
Im a complete cynic but I am open to being convinced. I have been on pain killers for a year. Ive realized that I am self medicating my depression, pain aside. But why should I mess with my brain and take the latest drug panecea to hit the market that has no foundation in real science. The whole chemical imbalance thing is a promo gimmick. They know there is no proof of such a statement and they dont know what the long term effects of these antidep. meds are. Has anyone on this sight looked at the sights by people who are suing the pharms? Permanant facial ticks, permanant hyper active states, etc..Zoloft ruined my life kind of stuff...it scares me.
I know there are many here who feel they are helped but I also read alot of "Im taking this and Im still depressed or cant sleep or have thoughts..."
They just increase your dose and send you home.
The opiates I have taken dont interfere with brain chem. I know people who feel they could never go off there antidep. ever. How are they less addicted than someone with chronic pain to opiates?
I just dont want to be another test rat.
Forget about close monitering nonsense, the pdoc Im going to completly missed a drug interation between my pain meds and the ssri she put me on. I couldnt sleep for 3 days. Even after taking the Zoloft am. and doubling my Nerontin dose, my pergesterone dose and my muscle relaxer dose. When the tremors started I looked up drug reactions on web and called her to let her know the interaction was listed as potentially fatal. So she wants to try a different class of antideps. I dont know what to do. I know there is not one answer, but what frightens me more is that no one seems to question this. Its like the new anti biotic.Ima
Posted by Susan J on August 13, 2003, at 13:50:55
In reply to Afraid of the cure, posted by Ima on August 13, 2003, at 12:55:47
I totally understand your fear of the meds, their side effects, and the "unknown" factor of what they can do.
When I got depressed, it was so awful, I did anything and everything my therapist and doc told me to do, so it would just go away. They gave me Paxil, which ended up being HORRIBLE for me.
I think the only way to competent health care these days is to become a subject matter expert on this issue you care about -- which it sounds like you are doing.
It is a cost-benefit issue. Are the costs of the drugs worth the benefits they give you? What side-effects will you NOT tolerate just to feel better?
Are you OK with not always feeling well mentally if it saves you from bad side-effects of certain drugs? Is your misery unbearable?Yes, docs are overprescribing SSRI's. They have experience with other, older drugs, and rightly see the benefits to these newer classes of drugs. However, I don't think they are always sensitive to how people react to them, etc. In addition, drug manufacturers push samples on the docs, the docs get perks (like trips and stuff) from the companies in an effort to increase their prescription sales. AND, docs are human, and they get really tired of some people who just won't try therapy, just won't try exercise, just won't try anything that takes a lot of effort when they can have a HAPPY PILL instead.
I personally seem to get EVERY side effect of every drug I've ever taken, from antibiotics, to Accutane, to Paxil, to Wellbutrin.
My advice is probably old hat to you, but:
Try to eat properly, get regular exercise (I swear by yoga for both mental and physical health), surround yourself with a supportive network of friends, know yourself well enough to know the types of things you do NOT want to tolerate (fussy mother, etc.), cherish yourself, pamper yourself, and try meds carefully. There are some great Rx books out there with possible interactions/side effects.
Good luck!
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2003, at 15:32:01
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure » Ima, posted by Susan J on August 13, 2003, at 13:50:55
Actually chemical imballence is a little more than bunk. It has been known for a long time that suicide victims and violent criminals have much lower levels of serotonin metabolites in their spinal fluids. We also know that serotonin is highly involved is the synaptic placticity of the brain and the brains ability to remap itself.
We also know that practically ever treatment for depression eventually ends in a common destination of improved serotogentic functioning.You are right that it is all somewhat theory, but then again so are many other medical cures we take for granted.
We don't really know how anticonvulstants works or blood pressure drugs like clonidine. There are hundreds of other non-psychiatric drugs that we really don't fully understand but we know they work.
Instead of dwelling on what *isn't* for sure, lets focus on what we *do* know. Untreated depression destorys the brain. Excess cortisol levels and disregualted HPA axis lead to measurable hippocampal shrinkadge and cell loss/atrophy.
Independant researchers and universities have well established that antidepressants not only prevent the shrinkadge, but are some of the very few drugs that are able to stimulate brain growth factors like BDNF and NGF that signal the brain to start remaping itself. Infact patients treated with prozac show a 70% increase in areas of the brain involved in emotional processinng and memory.This is what I say. Sure there could be consequences 20-30 yrs down the road but by then the disease may be much better understood. And personally I would rather have a braincell left when that better drug comes around.
If you are skeptical take Lithium. That will help with the depression and it greatly increases grey matter in thinking areas of brain.
In any case -get to where you can think rationally- then you will be able to weigh the pros-cons with a clear mind.
Linkadge
Posted by joebob on August 13, 2003, at 15:42:07
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2003, at 15:32:01
linkadge, i like your posts
am curious if you have any opinion about lithium in other forms, like the orotate or arginate?
and how do you feel it compares to depakote?
now i take dep with lexapro but get the shakes and some anxietythanks
Posted by jlo820 on August 13, 2003, at 15:46:10
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure » Ima, posted by Susan J on August 13, 2003, at 13:50:55
>> The whole chemical imbalance thing is a promo gimmick.
Well, not really. I understand your fear, but try to be rational and be careful about making statements like this - you can confuse many people that are looking for help.
It is know that antidepressants, antipsychotics, and antianxiety agents work, what is not known is exactly how they work.
Nobody really knows for sure what causes depression or psychosis, etc....it is all based on theories. So the medicine is created based upon those theories. But it is NOT a gimmick. These medicines work for millions and millions of people.
Unfortunatley they do not work for some and unfortunatley they do have side-effects for some(like all medications). For others, it takes time and patience to find the right medicine.
You said you had seen stories of people's lives ruined by anti-depressants. You also said that you self-medicate with pain killers (opiates to be precise). I think FAR more people have had their lives ruined by pain killers than by anti-depressants. But what is important to remember is that both medications have helped millions upon millions of people make their lives better.
It is OK to be afraid of something, and you should talk to your doctor about it. If you are not satisfied with your doctor, get another one.
Posted by Ima on August 13, 2003, at 16:50:26
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2003, at 15:32:01
Thanks all for the thoughtful responses. I stand corrected on my mode of comunication. But I mantain as a number of people have indicated , chemical imbalance is a theory. Yes, many therories abound that we take for granted (Im not one to do that, so much so that I avoid anti biotics unless Iam deathly ill). But anti biotics do not interfere with brain mechanisms.
One of the problems I see with psych doc is that I get 15 mins. to discuss this subject. Each time she just writes a new perscription. The medical profession is growing worse at treating patients as objects instead people. It seems sort of obvious that money has some bearing on this. Please dont refer me to psycho therapy. Ive tried that.
I guess the bottom line for me is accepting the fact that few people seem to care about why millions of people are unable to cope with the world we inhabit, and instead of figureing out why, we are medicated. The answer they give you for this is people have always suffered with depression but were afraid to discuss it. My mother suffers with deprssion as well, but she still works a full day and comes home to fix dinner (from scratch) without fail. I could never do that. What makes us different?
I know there are no simple answers but the fact that docs want to excuse away or drowned out with statistics those who would rock the boat doesnt overwhelm me with confidence in their judgement.
Having said all this, Ill probaly try the lithium if she suggusts it, because I have self medicated for 30 years now. I cant stop pain meds completely as no one has an explanation or cure for fibro myalgia either. (I am dieting and exercising)
I must sound like a really sour and down person from the tone of this letter. But actully I have a wonderful husband and two wonderful kids who bring alot of joy to my life. I have dark days but my family is use to it and lower their demands when I need them to. I have a good support network and a spiritual home I am content with. It is doctors and this subject that upset me. With declining health I keep having to deal with this. I would like to believe a pill could make my quality of life signifigantly better. We'll see. You all will be the first to know (well maybe not the very first :)
Ima
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2003, at 18:30:54
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure » linkadge, posted by joebob on August 13, 2003, at 15:42:07
I do have some interest in lithium of other forms, however the main drawback is that they are not regulated in the same way that the parmacudical preparations are.
All of the studies that show Lithium alters neuropeptides and increases grey matter, were done with pharacudical lithium.
Depakote is very good, and I consider it like lithium without the effect on serotonin.
Depakote seems to be better at calming one down (due to effects on GABA) but lithium seems better at keeping depression at bay (due to effects on serotonin)
Some people (who have many problems on ADs) take a fairly small dose of lithium (say 450-600mg) at night. This, combined with exercise, robustly raises NGF, BDNF, Neuropeptide Y and other important brain growth factors.
This regiment has few/no side effects, and can keep the brain in good shape.
I am personally having problems on my AD and am planning on going to go back to this regiment.
It is very sobering, but is one of those things where you feel better the longer you're on it.
Linkadge
Posted by joebob on August 13, 2003, at 20:36:56
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2003, at 18:30:54
which ad are you using/talking about?
i am using lexapro after predosing on the depakote re: daniel amen
> I do have some interest in lithium of other forms, however the main drawback is that they are not regulated in the same way that the parmacudical preparations are.
>
> All of the studies that show Lithium alters neuropeptides and increases grey matter, were done with pharacudical lithium.
>
> Depakote is very good, and I consider it like lithium without the effect on serotonin.
>
> Depakote seems to be better at calming one down (due to effects on GABA) but lithium seems better at keeping depression at bay (due to effects on serotonin)
>
> Some people (who have many problems on ADs) take a fairly small dose of lithium (say 450-600mg) at night. This, combined with exercise, robustly raises NGF, BDNF, Neuropeptide Y and other important brain growth factors.
>
> This regiment has few/no side effects, and can keep the brain in good shape.
>
> I am personally having problems on my AD and am planning on going to go back to this regiment.
> It is very sobering, but is one of those things where you feel better the longer you're on it.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
Posted by KimberlyDi on August 14, 2003, at 11:07:40
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2003, at 15:32:01
Posted by KimberlyDi on August 14, 2003, at 11:42:59
In reply to Bunk or Theories on Meds?, posted by Ima on August 13, 2003, at 16:50:26
Sure, I would love to take pain meds to medicate my inner pain and be happy and smiling and numb. There's a prescription night-time cough medicine that I adore. I go to sleep smiling because I feel so floaty and good. If only the doctors would understand that I could easily lose weight if I could only take Meth/crank. But for some reason the darn stuff is illegal.
The great thing about AD's is that, when you get the right one for you, it WORKS. You are normal again, the way you were before your wires got crossed.
I don't get why you post on psycho-babble that we are all taking Anti-Depressants because of a theory. Were you implying that we are all wrong and need to take opiates instead? "AD's are bunk" is YOUR theory. I'm going to keep my faith in my p-doc.
Wish you luck,
KDi in Texas
> Thanks all for the thoughtful responses. I stand corrected on my mode of comunication. But I mantain as a number of people have indicated , chemical imbalance is a theory. Yes, many therories abound that we take for granted (Im not one to do that, so much so that I avoid anti biotics unless Iam deathly ill). But anti biotics do not interfere with brain mechanisms.
> One of the problems I see with psych doc is that I get 15 mins. to discuss this subject. Each time she just writes a new perscription. The medical profession is growing worse at treating patients as objects instead people. It seems sort of obvious that money has some bearing on this. Please dont refer me to psycho therapy. Ive tried that.
> I guess the bottom line for me is accepting the fact that few people seem to care about why millions of people are unable to cope with the world we inhabit, and instead of figureing out why, we are medicated. The answer they give you for this is people have always suffered with depression but were afraid to discuss it. My mother suffers with deprssion as well, but she still works a full day and comes home to fix dinner (from scratch) without fail. I could never do that. What makes us different?
> I know there are no simple answers but the fact that docs want to excuse away or drowned out with statistics those who would rock the boat doesnt overwhelm me with confidence in their judgement.
> Having said all this, Ill probaly try the lithium if she suggusts it, because I have self medicated for 30 years now. I cant stop pain meds completely as no one has an explanation or cure for fibro myalgia either. (I am dieting and exercising)
> I must sound like a really sour and down person from the tone of this letter. But actully I have a wonderful husband and two wonderful kids who bring alot of joy to my life. I have dark days but my family is use to it and lower their demands when I need them to. I have a good support network and a spiritual home I am content with. It is doctors and this subject that upset me. With declining health I keep having to deal with this. I would like to believe a pill could make my quality of life signifigantly better. We'll see. You all will be the first to know (well maybe not the very first :)
> Ima
Posted by Ima on August 14, 2003, at 14:29:13
In reply to Re: Bunk or Theories on Meds? » Ima, posted by KimberlyDi on August 14, 2003, at 11:42:59
Hi KimberlyDi,
> Sure, I would love to take pain meds to medicate my inner pain and be happy and smiling and numb.Isnt feeling good the point?
There are people who feel not like themselves (ie.. emotional) and feel Painfree (ie..numb) when they take AD's. Ive interviewed many people first hand who prefer their real selves(ie..panic and all) to their AD selves (unable to focus or numb to their emotional pain). One woman who went off AD's said after two weeks she could cry agian and felt relieved to feel again.If only the doctors would understand that I could easily lose weight if I could only take Meth/crank. But for some reason the darn stuff is illegal.
Taking any narcotic in a method that is not PERSCRIBED is a sign of addiction.
>
> The great thing about AD's is that, when you get the right one for you, it WORKS. You are normal again, the way you were before your wires got crossed.Your assumption here is that being in metal pain is equal to having crossed wires. I had a friend who couldnt sleep the week before finals (a normal response) and her prof. recomended she take ADs.
The sleeplessness went away after she got her grades. But she was on the ADS for 3 years. Shes off now and will never go back. Her pdoc said she would never be able to get thru college. That was 4 years ago and she is working on her phd. now.
> I don't get why you post on psycho-babble that we are all taking Anti-Depressants because of a theory. Were you implying that we are all wrong and need to take opiates instead?Im looking for honest and even handed representations by people who have had similar concerns and worked through them.
Opiates are for phyiscal pain. It just so happens that once you are acclamated to taking them (titrated to the nec. dose) you dont feel "high". I feel like "my self" my old self, I can drive a car, I can sit at this blasted computer, I can ride a bike with my kids. (I cant sit for more than 20 min. at a time with out pain). It has been an additional benifit that My mood swings have evened out. My frustration is the stigma associated with opiates that makes them an unaceptable (though obviously safe, maybe safer than ADS) choice for treatment of depression. Finding a doctor to see that or perscribe them for depression is really impossible.
"AD's are bunk" is YOUR theory. I'm going to keep my faith in my p-doc.
Faith in your self is more important, and you are misquoting me. Chemical imbalance is a theory that has not been proven. Many people may be helped by ADS. What scares me is their handed out like candy for everything. I have a healthy suspicion that an industry that stands to reap such monetary gain and lacks real accountability is self serving at best and would be hard to get (as Ive experienced first hand) honest answers from.
I was hoping for serious exchange from those who (as I said prior) have had doubts and worked through them. Maybe this boat cant take the rocking?
If I have further exhausted my diminishing options I will be disheartened.
Peace
Ima
>
Posted by jlo820 on August 14, 2003, at 15:49:44
In reply to serious exchange desired, posted by Ima on August 14, 2003, at 14:29:13
Ima -
You need to come to a basic understanding. ADs are not handed out like candy for everything. If you desire a serious exchange, you are presenting yourself in the wrong manner.
ADs have shown to be effective in treating everything from depression, to social anxiety, to generalized anxiety, to panic, to post-traumatic stress disorder. Just because they treat a wide variety of problems, does not discredit them. Personally, I think it is great that they have found a class of medications that works for so many.
You keep questioning the chemical imbalances in people's brains - If you can offer a better theory on which scientists and doctors can treat depression and all of the aforementioned problems, by all means let us know. It is not so much a theory in that we know the medicines WORK, what is unknown is how they work.
Also, let's not kid ourselves, opiates are not a SAFER choice to treat depression that anti-depressant medication.
Your cynicism is bordering on irrationality, so in order to have a "serious exchange", I think you need to work through some issues and do some in-depth research on ADs (and opiates) first.
Good luck with your problems.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2003, at 18:26:29
In reply to Re: serious exchange desired, posted by jlo820 on August 14, 2003, at 15:49:44
> Maybe this boat cant take the rocking?
>
> Ima> Your cynicism is bordering on irrationality
>
> jlo820Please respect the views of others, be sensitive to their feelings, and don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2003, at 18:29:49
In reply to serious exchange desired, posted by Ima on August 14, 2003, at 14:29:13
> One of the problems I see with psych doc is that I get 15 mins. to discuss this subject. Each time she just writes a new perscription. The medical profession is growing worse at treating patients as objects instead people. It seems sort of obvious that money has some bearing on this.
> Many people may be helped by ADS. What scares me is their handed out like candy for everything. I have a healthy suspicion that an industry that stands to reap such monetary gain and lacks real accountability is self serving at best and would be hard to get (as Ive experienced first hand) honest answers from.
Also, I'd like general follow-ups regarding the medical profession or drug companies to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
Bob
Posted by linkadge on August 15, 2003, at 10:56:05
In reply to linkadge, posted by joebob on August 13, 2003, at 20:36:56
I have been taking Celexa for 2 years now. Its been of great help but it's always made me slightly manic. I did fairly well on lithium alone, and would like to return, however I would like to get to a point in my life where I can let myself go (cognitavly) for a few months.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 15, 2003, at 11:30:37
In reply to Redirect: medical profession or drug companies, posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2003, at 18:29:49
Actually not sleeping for a week before final exams is not a common/normal responce in universities/college. In recent/comprehensive studies students got (on average) 6-8 hours of sleep, even up until their last exam. This was consistent throughout all years of university.
If you are findinding that the antidepressant you are taking is making you emotionally numb or insensitive this a *tell-tale* sign that you are on too much. The drugs themselves are strong and often dosed too high. Most people are on them for moderate depression, not severe. Many people I know, are greatly helped by 5-10 mg of Celexa.
Emotional blunting is also not a universal effect of AD's. When I went on Celexa the I noticed I was getting better when I was able to talk to my mom about her problems. You see before, I could not because It was too painful for me, and made me almost paniky about the situation. A low dose of Celexa has taken away the constant fear of my own problems - better enabling me to listen to others' problems.
Chemical imballance is not just bunk - this is what bitter/depressed people say as a way to stay and justify their bitter and depressed behavior. If you're looking to be convinced by us you never will. If you're in bad shape you need to ask yourself - do I even *want* to get better?
It *is* possible to aproprately dose an AD so that you are not depressed and yet can still feel emotional.
You do realize it is a contueum. The people who are the most emotionally stable - and the most unlikely to suffer depression - are also somewhat less emotional. In recent studies, those who naturally reported the fewest symptoms of depression, also reported having sex the *least*?
The emotional blunting is quite simply a defence mechanism of the brain. You cannot survive in this world if you are conserned about everbody/everthing else but yourself. I hate to say it but a certain degree of indiference is normal and useful. We know we need to help others, but we also know we need to help ourselves.
How pleasing it is to know that the two go hand in hand. You cannot truely help others without first helping yourself.
But remember what I said about emotional blunting.
For me
------
No antidepressant = because everything mattered
I could not focus on what
mattered20 mg Celexa = because nothing mattered
I could not even *see* what
what matteredRight dose
(for me 10mg) = I could see what was most
important. I understood what
I could do to help and what
I could not do. This is
what is 'normal' - the
understanding of what is
and what is not useful
behaviour.In my oppinion its really about finding the right dose of the right med. But don't think that all of us here are a bunch of hedonistic self centered drug pushers. I want for you what is best.
Remember, that I, and most others are here for *two* reasons. To get help and to help others.
Best of luckLinkadge
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 15, 2003, at 22:45:32
In reply to Redirect: medical profession or drug companies, posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2003, at 18:29:49
> Also, I'd like general follow-ups regarding the medical profession or drug companies to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030808/msgs/251221.html
Bob
Posted by Ima on August 15, 2003, at 23:18:26
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2003, at 18:30:54
Linkadge
I have some questions for you and responses about CELEXA that got redirected to "medical profession and pharm companies? (I think thats the name)
From the last link on Afraid of the cure.
I dont know if you get email notification and I really appriciated your most helpful response.
Ima
Posted by linkadge on August 16, 2003, at 12:58:03
In reply to Re: Afraid of the cure, posted by Ima on August 15, 2003, at 23:18:26
at
I'd be glad to help
Linkadge
Posted by maryhelen on August 16, 2003, at 17:48:30
In reply to email me at..., posted by linkadge on August 16, 2003, at 12:58:03
If this is the end of the thread, I would be interested in talking with you, Ima. You can e-mail me at linda51@sympatico.ca. I can relate.
Posted by Ima on August 17, 2003, at 9:29:07
In reply to Re: email me at...Ima, posted by maryhelen on August 16, 2003, at 17:48:30
> If this is the end of the thread, I would be interested in talking with you, Ima. You can e-mail me at linda51@sympatico.ca.
Hi Maryhelen,
I cant get your link to work.b This is the second email link that includes the phrase sympatico.ca. that wont work went I use it. Im sorry about this. Id really like to hear what you have to say. I will follow this up with admin or dr. bob and see if we cant get it worked out.
Ima
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 18, 2003, at 8:28:31
In reply to Re: email me at...Ima, posted by maryhelen on August 16, 2003, at 17:48:30
> If this is the end of the thread...
I didn't mean for the whole thread to end, I just wanted to redirect follow-ups regarding people feeling "abused by the methods pdocs use and the medicines", etc. It's fine to continue this thread here with follow-ups regarding opiates, Celexa, etc.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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