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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 13:23:31
We all know that lithium is mostly used to control mania and even-out moods. But this is the very important way that I use it and I'd love to hear if others here have ever had similar experiences.
First off, I only need to take it in much lower doses than most folks take it. My lithium levels upon blood testing are VERY low, wayyyyyy below therapeutic blood levels. Yet I have been diagnosed as bipolar. Anyway, the first time a pdoc ever put me on lithium was MANY years ago when I felt HORRIBLE. Back then I had stopped taking my anti-dep (I just chucked them down the toilet one day...I was only about 18 at that time). Many months passed and I began to feel terrible. When I went back to him I was in the worst state of my life....I was feeling a combination of TERRIBLE feelings ALL AT ONCE. I felt VERY scared, panicky (I didn't know what was going on with me), very depressed (totally "hollow" and "empty"), I could not eat a THING (not even a raisin), I was doubled-over--mainly it was a VERY scared, VERY depressed, VERY empty feeling....I was BEGGING for help. He put me on lithium (for the first time in my life) and Xanax....I was KNOCKED OUT completely for a few days (all I did was sleep and take the meds)....in a few short days I was FINE, joking and feeling MUCH better. But ALL these years since then, I've only needed to take lithium in very sub-therapuetic doses to keep that combo of feelings from hitting me in that same way. And when I try and take even LESS lithium than I normally do, sooner or later I get a "hint" of that old combo feeling again (NOT anywhere near as bad though because I'm still on SOME lithium, albeit a puny amount).....so, if I try to reduce the lithium even less, sooner or later I start to feel a hint of that "scared, hollow, all of a sudden feeling like my body wants to cry type of feeling, my nerves actually feel like they're just about ready to fall apart" combo of feelings.......and if I increase my lithium just a tad, that feeling goes away. Go figure! I mean it is like I'm using lithium more as a "nerve stabilizer" instead of an anti-manic! When I explain that combo of feelings and how I use lithium to keep that away, my GP said, "but that's not what lithium is for"....I replied to him, "but that's what it works for for me! And since I don't know what other pill would work just as well for THAT purpose, I'm going to keep using the lithium for that". For YEARS I never really heard anyone describe a combo of feelings all rolled up into one like that...and I never heard of lithium being used in that way...then, just rather recently in Dr. Amen's book he was saying how lithium can be used for some very effectively AS A NERVE STABILIZER! Geez, I was glad to hear that, it was like FINALLY someone (a well-known doc no less) was talking about using lithium to stabilize someone's jangling nerves! Today I'm still taking this puny dose (300 mgs/day now and I'm a big guy...my lithium level is PUNY when tested (.02 or so....actually I think it was .016 last time tested). But if it gets TOO low for ME, then I start to feel that crummy combo feeling (just a hint of it) and then I bump my lithium dose up for a while. Actually, I'd probably feel best at 600 mg/day. Soooooooo, has anyone felt this "combo" of feelings at once? What do you all think of my using lithium in this way? And lastly, what other types of meds could solve this problem for me (if I wanted to try something else)? I'm thinking something like Klonopin. Anybody? All responses greatly appreciated.
Posted by crazychickuk on August 12, 2003, at 13:47:22
In reply to Anybody use Lithium for this purpose?, posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 13:23:31
Hey, your post is abit complecated for me, can you tell me what exactly do you take lithium for?
Thanx
Posted by DSCH on August 12, 2003, at 14:13:51
In reply to Anybody use Lithium for this purpose?, posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 13:23:31
McPac,
Am I right in thinking that your interest in substituting something else for your low maintenance dose of lithium is related to the blood histamine results you are getting back from Pfeiffer? For those who haven't picked up the whole story from your discussions with Larry it would help if you summarized their orthomolecular RX for you, your current pharm regimen, and the problems you feel right now. Also, weren't you doing *better* before Pfeiffer?
I was considering going to Pfeiffer, but their breakdown of *everyone* (monopolar depressives, bipolars, ADHD, schizophrenic, etc.) into just four treatment categories strikes me as.... well.... hehehe... I will remain civil. ;-)
Have they advanced beyond this?
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/subtypes.htmI was jazzed about them until I read some of your posts and then saw this page. I look at that, and I see myself crossing boundaries in the chart, both over time and in the particular states I have settled down in. It really smells to me like the result of a very simplistic analysis of their compiled data (which should be AWESOME). They should run that database through a Bayesian neural network and see what kind of non-linear model pops out of it, and find out how much deviation there can be from case to case.
Also: is what's going on on the other side of the blood/brain barrier fully reflected in the blood, urine, and hair?
Sorry if this doesn't help, I just had to vent some of my dissapointment at having my hopes raised and then take a hit. :-(
Posted by jaby on August 12, 2003, at 17:28:06
In reply to Anybody use Lithium for this purpose?, posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 13:23:31
I use Li for the exact thing you speak of. Our situation sounds idenitcal. I take 750mg lithobid each night. This is a "sub-therapeutic dose" for me. Works like a charm. Drop it too much and I'm assured to feel bad again.
Posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 17:51:01
In reply to Re: Anybody use Lithium for this purpose?--MPac, posted by jaby on August 12, 2003, at 17:28:06
Hi Jaby,
"Drop it too much and I'm assured to feel bad again".>>>>>>>>>Exactly HOW would you get if you dropped it too much?
(Is it really just the same way I get---jangly nerves, depressed and scared, unable to eat anything, feeling "hollow", all to a SEVERE degree? Have you ever had anything else work well for that? Seems like something else besides lithium should be able to work for that (why would lithium be the ONLY thing to work for that?) I'm wondering if a benzo (a "nerve" pill) would work??????
Posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 19:32:45
In reply to Re: Anybody use Lithium for this purpose? » McPac, posted by DSCH on August 12, 2003, at 14:13:51
Hi DS!
Am I right in thinking that your interest in substituting something else for your low maintenance dose of lithium is related to the blood histamine results you are getting back from Pfeiffer?
>>>>>>>>>>> No, this has nothing to do w/ Pfeiffer....I've just always used lithium in this way for Soooooo many years that I always wondered if anyone else was using it more as a "nerve stabilizer" than as an anti-manic.
For those who haven't picked up the whole story from your discussions with Larry it would help if you summarized their orthomolecular RX for you, your current pharm regimen, and the problems you feel right now.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I'm a one-finger typist so I try my best to keep things succinct (though I often fail at that, lol)......so here goes: I first went to Pfeiffer in late 2002.......they tested me (hair, blood, urine) and I answered a LOT of their questions (lengthy patient/family history)......they run a LOT of tests to gain insight into the biochemistry of the patient....based on their test findings (and from the info they gather from you), they devise a treatment plan.......with me, they found that I had very high histamine levels...also, I had a zinc deficiency (my copper levels were too high)....also, a condition called pyrroluria (genetic stress disorder that causes you to lose vitamin B6 & zinc (and Pfeiffer says that this then blocks the body from producing serotonin)...(hey, I don't know what to make of all of their theories, I'm just trying to follow their treatment plan and see what happens)....there were other things too (regarding homocysteine)....but, from what I gathered from them, the high histamine was the "biggie" (though they do try to get everything running smoothly, biochemically speaking)
Also, weren't you doing *better* before Pfeiffer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is very difficult to answer.
There are TOO damn many variables to figure out...here's what I mean...when I went there, I had multiple problems...I have been treated for years for major depression (probably bipolar), OCD, anxiety (the usual load of crap that us Babblers deal with).....I was taking low-dose lithium, Zoloft and low-dose Remeron (for terrible chronic insomnia)......soooo, Pfeiffer puts me on my individualized nutrient treatment plan (LOTS of vitamins, minerals, etc.) to try to straighten out my biochemistry.......(they don't make you buy your supps from them, that's up to you).......now, I wasn't feeling too good right at the time I went to them....I was taking too puny a dose of lithium (even for me), various ssri's had always caused anger problems (Prozac made me NUTZ!) and I wanted off my Zoloft because that was causing bad anger as well....anyway, I started taking my nutrient therapy and DILIGENTLY (NEVER missed a dose) kept taking it.....for a long while I felt VERY, VERY lethargic (had to be from the nutrient plan, nothing else had changed...my body has adjusted much better now)......so I took the supps every day for about 7 months, then less than 2 months ago I returned there for my follow-up testing.......the results came back that my histamine level had RISEN from 129 to 186! I was not happy....one nurse said, "well, it's a different season"....yes, true, the first time I tested was in October, the 2nd in late June, so my allergies were much worse at that time of year, perhaps that was a valid reason why the level went the wrong way.....my pyrroluric condition improved, my zinc level fell further (go figure) but my zinc-copper ratio had improved.....I was mostly disappointed about the histamine level though......but, if the question is "Did I feel Worse after Pfeiffer than before?".....stay with me now.....VARIABLES, VARIABLES, too many damn variables make anything hard to figure out....while at Pfeiffer, I told one nurse that I strongly hypothesized that Zoloft was causing me VERY terrible anger and that it would be hard to tell if Pfeiffer's plan was helping because this terrible anger was OVERRIDING everything! I have since DITCHED the Zoloft (it lifted my moods greatly but anger side effect was TOO bad).....what I did was increase the Remeron and made it my anti-dep AND ocd med (though it packs a milder AD "punch"; Remeron seems like a weak AD to me), and I still take my puny lithium dose (it may need raised a bit).......I'm looking for a mood-LIFT (quite a few options)..........I still get "mini" anger spells, definitely not as bad as with Zoloft but I'm wondering WHAT causes that! Happens all of a sudden, my face will actually get hot, like "flushed" feeling, it's a "feeling" that just arises quickly, I can tell it's something from "inside" me.....don't know if raising lithium could help (or hurt) that.....could be one of these MANY supps also???.......it will be nice to see IF I ever get this histamine level WAY DOWN, what kind of an effect that might have.....I was pretty damn hyper when I went to Pfeiffer and THAT is one thing that has been much better, for whatever reason....my body seems to have been "calmed", my brain is another matter!......I was considering going to Pfeiffer, but their breakdown of *everyone* (monopolar depressives, bipolars, ADHD, schizophrenic, etc.) into just four treatment categories strikes me as.... well.... hehehe... I will remain civil. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, they try to straighten out whatever biochemical imbalances you have...don't worry about "treatment categories"
I was jazzed about them until I read some of your posts and then saw this page. I look at that, and I see myself crossing boundaries in the chart
>>>>>>>>> It's harder to treat somebody who has multiple imbalances (like me) and more difficult imbalances (lowering histamine alone can be a real PAIN!!!! I'm going to stick this out w/ Pfeiffer for some time and see where it all pans out!
They should run that database through a Bayesian neural network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yeah, I just hope they don't have some dolt, sitting in their lab and trying to decipher my results with his Captain Crunch Decoder Ring!
Also: is what's going on on the other side of the blood/brain barrier fully reflected in the blood, urine, and hair?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there is still a good deal of "guess work" going on, at Pfeiffer and everywhere else also....no one's got all the answers
Sorry if this doesn't help, I just had to vent some of my dissapointment at having my hopes raised and then take a hit. :-(
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey, I would NOT discourage you from going to Pfeiffer! It's NOT a magical, come-and-be-cured place for everybody....I'm SURE they HAVE helped a LOT of folks.....for me, I'll give them a shot.....in some ways it has already been worth my going there....TAKE CARE!!!! (You got this one-finger typist to type ALL this!?! Now I've got to go and soak my poor finger! lol)
Posted by DSCH on August 12, 2003, at 20:20:14
In reply to DSCH, Anybody use Lithium for this purpose?, posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 19:32:45
I understand what you mean about too many things going on at once.
On my own initiative, last week I started taking B-complex time relased once a day, and two capsules of DLPA along with my pemoline pill twice a day (1600 mg DLPA/day, 75 mg pemoline/day). I have started having bouts of energy and lucidity interrupted by lethargic and foggy periods after meals. I think its sugar and carbs and their effect on blood insulin levels, but why would that be happening now? Never noticed getting knocked down by sugar before.
Thanks for stressing your finger. I'll give Pfeiffer another look. Take care.
Posted by jaby on August 13, 2003, at 10:22:29
In reply to Jaby, Anybody use Lithium for this purpose?--MPac, posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 17:51:01
It's pretty mcuh just as you say. It has always seemed that I had GAD/depression, but I have responded best to mood stabilizers so I have a BPII diagnosis. If I drop the Li the anxiety comes back in a hurry (depression too). Neurontin has helped me tremendously (3000mg/day), and lamictal a little after it helped tremendously initially.
Posted by Blake G on August 13, 2003, at 22:34:02
In reply to Re: Anybody use Lithium for this purpose? » McPac, posted by DSCH on August 12, 2003, at 14:13:51
McPac,
Methylation/histamine-tendencies and pyroluria presence are just one aspect of many in their treatment protocol. The total treatment comes from the 90-150 laboratory tests done on each patient. These tests include (neurotransmitter levels, routine chemistries, minerals and vitamins, toxic elements, liver enzymes, food sensitivities, histamine, microorganism markers, digestive and absorptive function, immune function, amino acid analysis, fatty acid analysis, organic chemicals, hormone levels, etc.) The total treatment plan is based on individual chemical imbalances not health symptoms or what ever categories a person may fall into.
Regarding the signs and symptoms on my subtypes page, don't let that put you off. Everyone has symptoms from different groups. This is because there are many many factors (physical or psychological) which influence each of these factors. They are simply a general finding. For example William Walsh writes that 75% of under-methylated persons have inhalant/seasonal allergies. There are also over laps between subtypes, etc.
The Pfeiffer Treatment Center protocol for mental health conditions is among the most individualized out there. You raise a good point about "what's going on on the other side of the blood/brain barrier". Blood & hair levels are not a perfect representation. In the case of zinc the Pfeiffer Center uses a combination of serum levels, red blood cell levels, hair levels and clinical symptoms of deficiency. This is still not perfect, but it's the best that is currently available.
Regards, Blake G
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/> McPac,
>
> Am I right in thinking that your interest in substituting something else for your low maintenance dose of lithium is related to the blood histamine results you are getting back from Pfeiffer? For those who haven't picked up the whole story from your discussions with Larry it would help if you summarized their orthomolecular RX for you, your current pharm regimen, and the problems you feel right now. Also, weren't you doing *better* before Pfeiffer?
>
> I was considering going to Pfeiffer, but their breakdown of *everyone* (monopolar depressives, bipolars, ADHD, schizophrenic, etc.) into just four treatment categories strikes me as.... well.... hehehe... I will remain civil. ;-)
>
> Have they advanced beyond this?
> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/subtypes.htm
>
> I was jazzed about them until I read some of your posts and then saw this page. I look at that, and I see myself crossing boundaries in the chart, both over time and in the particular states I have settled down in. It really smells to me like the result of a very simplistic analysis of their compiled data (which should be AWESOME). They should run that database through a Bayesian neural network and see what kind of non-linear model pops out of it, and find out how much deviation there can be from case to case.
>
> Also: is what's going on on the other side of the blood/brain barrier fully reflected in the blood, urine, and hair?
>
> Sorry if this doesn't help, I just had to vent some of my dissapointment at having my hopes raised and then take a hit. :-(
>
>
Posted by DSCH on August 14, 2003, at 9:40:34
In reply to Re: Anybody use Lithium for this purpose?, posted by Blake G on August 13, 2003, at 22:34:02
> McPac,
Blake, you were directing this at me, not McPac. :-)
> Methylation/histamine-tendencies and pyroluria presence are just one aspect of many in their treatment protocol. The total treatment comes from the 90-150 laboratory tests done on each patient. These tests include (neurotransmitter levels, routine chemistries, minerals and vitamins, toxic elements, liver enzymes, food sensitivities, histamine, microorganism markers, digestive and absorptive function, immune function, amino acid analysis, fatty acid analysis, organic chemicals, hormone levels, etc.) The total treatment plan is based on individual chemical imbalances not health symptoms or what ever categories a person may fall into.
>
> Regarding the signs and symptoms on my subtypes page, don't let that put you off. Everyone has symptoms from different groups. This is because there are many many factors (physical or psychological) which influence each of these factors. They are simply a general finding. For example William Walsh writes that 75% of under-methylated persons have inhalant/seasonal allergies. There are also over laps between subtypes, etc.
>
> The Pfeiffer Treatment Center protocol for mental health conditions is among the most individualized out there. You raise a good point about "what's going on on the other side of the blood/brain barrier". Blood & hair levels are not a perfect representation. In the case of zinc the Pfeiffer Center uses a combination of serum levels, red blood cell levels, hair levels and clinical symptoms of deficiency. This is still not perfect, but it's the best that is currently available.
>
> Regards, Blake G
> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/Thanks, Blake. I was really speaking all too quickly and jumping to conclusions. The phenomena I have experienced have convinced me that an othormolecular approach has the potential to be very powerful.
Adding B-complex and DLPA to my pemoline resulted in clearing up a lot of brain static, but as soon as that happened I became extremely sensitive to sugar and starch intake (excessive insulin swings that I wasn't noticing until my brain got jolted out the doldrums?). Yesterday I got overstimulated with a protein-rich breakfast, pemoline, and DLPA and tried inositol (which I had just bought from a store that day based upon the beneficial suppliment list for under-methylated persons... that category best describes what I was like before I noticed my adult suite of problems). The resulting experience was quite remarkable, I would appreciate it greatly if you could have a look at the three posts I made yesterday starting with this one:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030812/msgs/250584.html
I have read that inositol helps to prevent diabetic nerve damage. That, combined with my new sensitivity to sugar and starch gives me the ominous notion that I might have been advancing into Type II diabetes unawares. I am quite overweight and have noticed some numbness in my left hand a month or two ago and it is present in my family history (paternal grandfather).
Suggestions for what I should do until I can arrange for a visit to Pfeiffer TC?
Posted by Blake G on August 15, 2003, at 0:46:53
In reply to I take that back! » Blake G, posted by DSCH on August 14, 2003, at 9:40:34
Hi again. I'm happy to continue this conversation, although I would prefer to do it via email. You can get my email off the 'About Me' page on my site.
Regards, Blake G
This is the end of the thread.
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