![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 22:30:02
Dr. Heller, a pdoc w/ a site on the web, talks about many ssri users being made WORSE by ssri meds. He says that most of these people have an already overstimulated 5HT1a receptor and when they take an ssri, the ssri acts on all serotonin receptors, including the 5HT1a one. THAT causes WORSENING anxiety and anger/irritability problems for many, he says. He says this repeatedly to people who write in to his site yet I've never heard anyone here mention this. His solution is to slowly add Buspar, which BLOCKS that receptor site and allows the person to take the ssri without getting those side effects. Heck of an idea if it works...that's my question, has anybody here ever successfully added Buspar for that reason and did it work?. Also, is Buspar a good anxiety drug? Sure would appreciate any and all responses!
Posted by ace on June 22, 2003, at 22:49:29
In reply to Calling everybody! This may apply to many here!, posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 22:30:02
> Dr. Heller, a pdoc w/ a site on the web, talks about many ssri users being made WORSE by ssri meds. He says that most of these people have an already overstimulated 5HT1a receptor and when they take an ssri, the ssri acts on all serotonin receptors, including the 5HT1a one. THAT causes WORSENING anxiety and anger/irritability problems for many, he says. He says this repeatedly to people who write in to his site yet I've never heard anyone here mention this.
The SSRIs manafactures are stoopid. I mean, as if OCD, depression, social phobia, GAD ALL come from a deficiency of 5HT- very naive. I think it is only a deficiency with a few (this is why SSRIs are definately not for everyone) a lot of people have a balance problem- too much NE, for example, with two little 5HT, and vice versa.
His solution is to slowly add Buspar, which BLOCKS that receptor site and allows the person to take the ssri without getting those side effects. Heck of an idea if it works...that's my question, has anybody here ever successfully added Buspar for that reason and did it work?. Also, is Buspar a good anxiety drug? Sure would appreciate any and all responses!McPactserosa- I have heard Buspar to be good for anxiety- it takes 1-6weeks to have maximum effect, but it is a good drug from what I've read...Good luck to you dude,
Ace...90mg Nardil.
Posted by Caleb462 on June 22, 2003, at 23:04:18
In reply to Calling everybody! This may apply to many here!, posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 22:30:02
> Dr. Heller, a pdoc w/ a site on the web, talks about many ssri users being made WORSE by ssri meds. He says that most of these people have an already overstimulated 5HT1a receptor and when they take an ssri, the ssri acts on all serotonin receptors, including the 5HT1a one. THAT causes WORSENING anxiety and anger/irritability problems for many, he says. He says this repeatedly to people who write in to his site yet I've never heard anyone here mention this. His solution is to slowly add Buspar, which BLOCKS that receptor site and allows the person to take the ssri without getting those side effects. Heck of an idea if it works...that's my question, has anybody here ever successfully added Buspar for that reason and did it work?. Also, is Buspar a good anxiety drug? Sure would appreciate any and all responses!
Hmm... he says Buspar blocks 5-HT1a. Odd... Buspar is a partial AGONIST at 5-HT1a, so I don't exactly understand his reasoning. I may be missing something?
Posted by Ritch on June 22, 2003, at 23:30:34
In reply to Calling everybody! This may apply to many here!, posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 22:30:02
> Dr. Heller, a pdoc w/ a site on the web, talks about many ssri users being made WORSE by ssri meds. He says that most of these people have an already overstimulated 5HT1a receptor and when they take an ssri, the ssri acts on all serotonin receptors, including the 5HT1a one. THAT causes WORSENING anxiety and anger/irritability problems for many, he says. He says this repeatedly to people who write in to his site yet I've never heard anyone here mention this. His solution is to slowly add Buspar, which BLOCKS that receptor site and allows the person to take the ssri without getting those side effects. Heck of an idea if it works...that's my question, has anybody here ever successfully added Buspar for that reason and did it work?. Also, is Buspar a good anxiety drug? Sure would appreciate any and all responses!
I found buspar to yes.. lower anxiety somewhat and to boost antidepressant response of SSRI, but it tends to predispose me to anger attacks (I think due to it's metabolite 1-PP). I've been on a little as an experiement the last two weeks and I've stopped it today because of continuing sleep disruption it appears to be causing.
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 0:09:32
In reply to Re: Calling everybody! This may apply to many here!, posted by ace on June 22, 2003, at 22:49:29
Ace, Glad to hear that your Nardil is brilliantly working dude!
You are "The World's Heavyweight Nardil Champion"!
I think you're ready to kick Mike Tyson's asss! (he's been acting a fool again lately).
Also, the serotonin thing.....I know depression has many causes, so many different neurotransmitters (or whatever) are at play...but as for OCD....do you think that serotonin IS the 'biggie' with that condition? Later!!
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 0:52:45
In reply to Re: Calling everybody! This may apply to many here!, posted by Caleb462 on June 22, 2003, at 23:04:18
I found many examples where Dr. Heller says that Buspar allows people to tolerate the ssri's by lowering the 5HT1a receptor (he says Buspar lowers that receptor which helps with anxiety, anger, irritability, etc. that the ssri's make worse! Below is just one example...note his answer!
How Can I Be Treated If SSRI'S Make Me Sick?
QUESTION:Dr. Heller,
I am 37, and I think that I have suffered from anxiety and depression since childhood. At about the age of 30, I was diagnosed by my doctor with GAD and depression. According to my experience and your screening criteria, I think that "fractured happiness" and the inattentive type of ADD are also parts of my overall condition. I have tried almost all of the SSRI's, and generally they let me see what non-depressed, non-anxious thinking was like. What a revelation!
However, side effects have been a big problem. Prozac made me hyper. Paxil made me feel the best, but it also caused a rapid weight gain. Zoloft made me feel wired. Adding Trazodone caused a quick addition of 10 pounds despite a lot of exercise. I tried Wellbutrin with Paxil and Celexa respectively but this did not lessen my side effects. This includes memory glitches that were very disturbing. Currently, I am on Serzone by itself, and it seems to have made my anxiety worse.
Many family members, from both sides, have ADD, depression and anxiety. Are these conditions related to one another? Considering the fact that I have multiple issues, which medications would you suggest for me?
(I have had my thyroid checked on several occasions. It has always been normal.)
ANSWER:
The problem is the GAD and an overactive serotonin 1-A receptor. This is the gene involved in the cognitive generalized anxiety disorder. SSRI's increase most serotonins, including this one. BuSpar lowers that receptor so that SSRI's and stimulants can be taken.
Posted by Caleb462 on June 23, 2003, at 1:00:27
In reply to ACE, Calling everybody! This may apply to many , posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 0:09:32
> Also, the serotonin thing.....I know depression has many causes, so many different neurotransmitters (or whatever) are at play...but as for OCD....do you think that serotonin IS the 'biggie' with that condition? Later!!Well... my thought is, serotonin is the "biggie" in TREATING OCD... but not neccesarilly causation of OCD.
Increasing post-synaptic availability of serotonin over a period of time has been shown to reduce OCD symptoms in many patients - true, however, this does not mean that these patients were suffering from a deficit or imbalance of serotonin activity. It only means that this is one way to treat OCD.
Let me put it to you this way... let's say you have a cut on your arm. You put a Neosporin and a band-aid on it, and it heals. This does not mean that your arm was suffering from a low level of neosporin and band-aids does it?
Anyway, that's my perspective.
P.S. - Because of personal experiences, I also believe the opiod system could be a 'biggie' in treating OCD, if only it was researched. For instance, I'd be very interested in what effect an enkephalinase inhibitor or a delta opiod agonist would have on OCD patients... but this has not yet been tested, and unfortunately, may remain untested.
Posted by ACE on June 23, 2003, at 1:02:29
In reply to ACE, Calling everybody! This may apply to many , posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 0:09:32
> Ace, Glad to hear that your Nardil is brilliantly working dude!
> You are "The World's Heavyweight Nardil Champion"!
> I think you're ready to kick Mike Tyson's asss! (he's been acting a fool again lately).
> Also, the serotonin thing.....I know depression has many causes, so many different neurotransmitters (or whatever) are at play...but as for OCD....do you think that serotonin IS the 'biggie' with that condition? Later!!Mcpacster...dude, Mike Tyson is a clown- and if he is looking for trouble me and Nardil will drum his butt into the ground!
With the neurotransmitter deal...short answer: no. I don't actually think there is such a thing as 'OCD' which has the same aeitiology (cause) in everybody (ie lack of serotonin). Instead I think the concept/syptoms of OCD, although being similiar in many, results from unspecified changes in brain chemistry. For instance, two people have 'OCD'- 1 has an excess of noradrenalin and a little less dopamine than is needed, and also too much serotonin. The other person has too little serotonin, and too much noradrenalin. See what I mean...however maybe similiar neurotransmitters are involved- due to the similarities, but even then I think people have difference causing this thing OCD. The SSRIs cause potent serotonin re-uptake- if the problem was really serotonin everyone would be cured! Just my opinion.
By the way I'm looking into Buspar or Reboxetine befor Zyprexa for my OCD.
You rule McPacster!
PS- two questions
1. how long have you had OCD- what age did it start?
2. Have you ever used an antipsychotic? ever would?
Ace,
Nardil Man!- Heavyweight Champ #1!!
Posted by Caleb462 on June 23, 2003, at 1:06:25
In reply to Caleb/Others, Re: Calling everybody! , posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 0:52:45
> I found many examples where Dr. Heller says that Buspar allows people to tolerate the ssri's by lowering the 5HT1a receptor (he says Buspar lowers that receptor which helps with anxiety, anger, irritability, etc. that the ssri's make worse! Below is just one example...note his answer!
>
>
> How Can I Be Treated If SSRI'S Make Me Sick?
> QUESTION:
>
> Dr. Heller,
>
> I am 37, and I think that I have suffered from anxiety and depression since childhood. At about the age of 30, I was diagnosed by my doctor with GAD and depression. According to my experience and your screening criteria, I think that "fractured happiness" and the inattentive type of ADD are also parts of my overall condition. I have tried almost all of the SSRI's, and generally they let me see what non-depressed, non-anxious thinking was like. What a revelation!
>
> However, side effects have been a big problem. Prozac made me hyper. Paxil made me feel the best, but it also caused a rapid weight gain. Zoloft made me feel wired. Adding Trazodone caused a quick addition of 10 pounds despite a lot of exercise. I tried Wellbutrin with Paxil and Celexa respectively but this did not lessen my side effects. This includes memory glitches that were very disturbing. Currently, I am on Serzone by itself, and it seems to have made my anxiety worse.
>
> Many family members, from both sides, have ADD, depression and anxiety. Are these conditions related to one another? Considering the fact that I have multiple issues, which medications would you suggest for me?
>
> (I have had my thyroid checked on several occasions. It has always been normal.)
>
>
>
> ANSWER:
>
> The problem is the GAD and an overactive serotonin 1-A receptor. This is the gene involved in the cognitive generalized anxiety disorder. SSRI's increase most serotonins, including this one. BuSpar lowers that receptor so that SSRI's and stimulants can be taken.
>
>Again, I just don't see his logic. Buspar's effect is basically the same as an SSRI - just much much much more selective. Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 1:33:41
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling everybody! , posted by Caleb462 on June 23, 2003, at 1:06:25
"BuSpar lowers the genetically elevated 5HT1 receptor that causes persistent worry, and is aggravated by SSRI's. Those with post traumatic stress disorder appear to have an elevated 5HT-2 receptor that can be worsened by BuSpar and also need Remeron, usually only for a few months".
>>>>>>>>>>One more (of many) examples of where Doc Heller says that Buspar lowers 5HT1a site (that's his quote, I chopped off the person's lengthy question just to save space)
Caleb "Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?"
>>>>>>>>> no, that's not what he means dude, he says that ssri's raise the 5HT1a site that causes those problems for some and that Buspar lowers (he even said "blocks" in some responses) that site....later!
Posted by Caleb462 on June 23, 2003, at 1:37:48
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling everybody! , posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 1:33:41
> "BuSpar lowers the genetically elevated 5HT1 receptor that causes persistent worry, and is aggravated by SSRI's. Those with post traumatic stress disorder appear to have an elevated 5HT-2 receptor that can be worsened by BuSpar and also need Remeron, usually only for a few months".
>
> >>>>>>>>>>One more (of many) examples of where Doc Heller says that Buspar lowers 5HT1a site (that's his quote, I chopped off the person's lengthy question just to save space)
>
> Caleb "Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?"
>
> >>>>>>>>> no, that's not what he means dude, he says that ssri's raise the 5HT1a site that causes those problems for some and that Buspar lowers (he even said "blocks" in some responses) that site....later!
>
>
>Well, Buspar is a partial agonist at 5-HT1a... and so perhaps could block serotonin from getting to that site. However, that makes no difference since buspar itself acts like serotonin by ACTIVATING the 5-HT1a site. 5-HT1a receptors will respond in the same manner after repeated treatment to either an SSRI or Buspar. I'm no expert... I could be wrong, but what he's saying doesn't seem to make any sense.
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 1:59:05
In reply to Re: ACE, Calling everybody! This may apply to many » McPac, posted by ACE on June 23, 2003, at 1:02:29
By the way I'm looking into Buspar or Reboxetine befor Zyprexa for my OCD.
>>>>>>Ace, I don't think the Reboxetine is a good idea(?)...I posted about the Reboxetine before mainly for depression folks....I'm afraid that Reboxetine raises norepinephrine and I've read that most ocd'ers already have too high of NE levels.....maybe try the fish oil Ace...I take it (not sure about ocd effect because I take other supps and it's hard to tell 'what does what' sometimes.....fish oil is great for MANY things, incl. overall health, so many health benefits, it's a great supp for EVERYBODY to take!
PS- two questions
1. how long have you had OCD- what age did it start?
>>>>>>>>> Had it about 25 yrs....started to get bad in my early teens (went from very, very, very mild 'tendencies' to unbearable PURE HELL ocd VERY shortly after a bad head injury...I KNOW that played a HUGE part in all of my probs, incl. ocd....ohhhhh, if only that head injury had never happened, I really think that many of my probs would have either never happened OR they would have been MUCH milder forms...that injury changed my life forever, ALL of my problems started VERY shortly right after that.
2. Have you ever used an antipsychotic? ever would?
>>>>>>>I was put on 1 or 2 of them MANY years ago (teens) totally unnecessarily and for incorrect, wrong diagnosis....terrible reaction to one.......I have a "tic" problem...it's not very bad now, not really noticeable now, however at times it has been bad (when a med makes it worse)...anyway, the AP's could well have caused this...hard to say for sure because ocd'ers and tics often go together....but I don't want any part of AP's myself though.....
Ace,
Nardil Man!- Heavyweight Champ #1!!>>>>>>>>>>>Ace, you are TOO COOL which is why YOU RULE!!!!!!!!
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 2:02:35
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling everybody! , posted by Caleb462 on June 23, 2003, at 1:37:48
I have no idea myself Caleb...I don't know that biochemistry stuff that well.....I wonder what Larry Hoover would think about all this....calling the "Hoovermeister" if you are out there Lar!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take care Caleb!
Posted by ace on June 23, 2003, at 2:55:17
In reply to ACE, Calling everybody! This may apply to many, posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 1:59:05
Posted by McPac on June 23, 2003, at 22:22:42
In reply to McPAC IS ONE COOL CAT!!!!! (nm) » McPac, posted by ace on June 23, 2003, at 2:55:17
(nm)
Posted by Sebastian on June 23, 2003, at 23:15:35
In reply to Calling everybody! This may apply to many here!, posted by McPac on June 22, 2003, at 22:30:02
I think its a good idea. Instead of buspar I take Zyprexa with it, works great for me!
Sebastian
Posted by rod on June 24, 2003, at 10:18:07
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling everybody! , posted by Caleb462 on June 23, 2003, at 1:37:48
> > "BuSpar lowers the genetically elevated 5HT1 receptor that causes persistent worry, and is aggravated by SSRI's. Those with post traumatic stress disorder appear to have an elevated 5HT-2 receptor that can be worsened by BuSpar and also need Remeron, usually only for a few months".
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>One more (of many) examples of where Doc Heller says that Buspar lowers 5HT1a site (that's his quote, I chopped off the person's lengthy question just to save space)
> >
> > Caleb "Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?"
> >
> > >>>>>>>>> no, that's not what he means dude, he says that ssri's raise the 5HT1a site that causes those problems for some and that Buspar lowers (he even said "blocks" in some responses) that site....later!
> >
> >
> >
>
> Well, Buspar is a partial agonist at 5-HT1a... and so perhaps could block serotonin from getting to that site. However, that makes no difference since buspar itself acts like serotonin by ACTIVATING the 5-HT1a site. 5-HT1a receptors will respond in the same manner after repeated treatment to either an SSRI or Buspar. I'm no expert... I could be wrong, but what he's saying doesn't seem to make any sense.
>
I think you are right, this doesn't seem to make sense.
Base on my personal opinion:
Both, Buspar and the ssris, downregulate (desensitization) the 1a receptor by stimulating this site, through different mechanisms (direct or by blocking the reuptake pump). Progolnged stimulation causes downregulation.
But the huge digfference ist that the ssris cause a disruption in dopamine efflux at the beginning of treatment and Buspar is also a D2 Agonist (its acting like dopamine; not blocking)
So I think the reason why Buspar is good for ssri induced anxiety, at the beginning of treatment, is because Buspar somewhat compensates the decreased dopamine efflux by directly stimulation this site (d2).
thats my personal opinion.Roland
Posted by rod on June 24, 2003, at 10:28:43
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling everybody! , posted by rod on June 24, 2003, at 10:18:07
> > > "BuSpar lowers the genetically elevated 5HT1 receptor that causes persistent worry, and is aggravated by SSRI's. Those with post traumatic stress disorder appear to have an elevated 5HT-2 receptor that can be worsened by BuSpar and also need Remeron, usually only for a few months".
> > >
> > > >>>>>>>>>>One more (of many) examples of where Doc Heller says that Buspar lowers 5HT1a site (that's his quote, I chopped off the person's lengthy question just to save space)
> > >
> > > Caleb "Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?"
> > >
> > > >>>>>>>>> no, that's not what he means dude, he says that ssri's raise the 5HT1a site that causes those problems for some and that Buspar lowers (he even said "blocks" in some responses) that site....later!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Well, Buspar is a partial agonist at 5-HT1a... and so perhaps could block serotonin from getting to that site. However, that makes no difference since buspar itself acts like serotonin by ACTIVATING the 5-HT1a site. 5-HT1a receptors will respond in the same manner after repeated treatment to either an SSRI or Buspar. I'm no expert... I could be wrong, but what he's saying doesn't seem to make any sense.
> >
>
>
> I think you are right, this doesn't seem to make sense.
> Base on my personal opinion:
> Both, Buspar and the ssris, downregulate (desensitization) the 1a receptor by stimulating this site, through different mechanisms (direct or by blocking the reuptake pump). Progolnged stimulation causes downregulation.
> But the huge digfference ist that the ssris cause a disruption in dopamine efflux at the beginning of treatment and Buspar is also a D2 Agonist (its acting like dopamine; not blocking)
> So I think the reason why Buspar is good for ssri induced anxiety, at the beginning of treatment, is because Buspar somewhat compensates the decreased dopamine efflux by directly stimulation this site (d2).
> thats my personal opinion.
>
> Rolandwell, I really thought Buspar acts like an agonist, but I re-checked this and it turned out to be wrong. It acts like an antagonist (blocker). So just forget my above post. sorry.
I dont know how it works.
Posted by Caleb462 on June 24, 2003, at 13:17:30
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling; Correction » rod, posted by rod on June 24, 2003, at 10:28:43
> > > > "BuSpar lowers the genetically elevated 5HT1 receptor that causes persistent worry, and is aggravated by SSRI's. Those with post traumatic stress disorder appear to have an elevated 5HT-2 receptor that can be worsened by BuSpar and also need Remeron, usually only for a few months".
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>One more (of many) examples of where Doc Heller says that Buspar lowers 5HT1a site (that's his quote, I chopped off the person's lengthy question just to save space)
> > > >
> > > > Caleb "Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?"
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>>>>> no, that's not what he means dude, he says that ssri's raise the 5HT1a site that causes those problems for some and that Buspar lowers (he even said "blocks" in some responses) that site....later!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, Buspar is a partial agonist at 5-HT1a... and so perhaps could block serotonin from getting to that site. However, that makes no difference since buspar itself acts like serotonin by ACTIVATING the 5-HT1a site. 5-HT1a receptors will respond in the same manner after repeated treatment to either an SSRI or Buspar. I'm no expert... I could be wrong, but what he's saying doesn't seem to make any sense.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I think you are right, this doesn't seem to make sense.
> > Base on my personal opinion:
> > Both, Buspar and the ssris, downregulate (desensitization) the 1a receptor by stimulating this site, through different mechanisms (direct or by blocking the reuptake pump). Progolnged stimulation causes downregulation.
> > But the huge digfference ist that the ssris cause a disruption in dopamine efflux at the beginning of treatment and Buspar is also a D2 Agonist (its acting like dopamine; not blocking)
> > So I think the reason why Buspar is good for ssri induced anxiety, at the beginning of treatment, is because Buspar somewhat compensates the decreased dopamine efflux by directly stimulation this site (d2).
> > thats my personal opinion.
> >
> > Roland
>
> well, I really thought Buspar acts like an agonist, but I re-checked this and it turned out to be wrong. It acts like an antagonist (blocker). So just forget my above post. sorry.
> I dont know how it works.I believe the idea is that it primarily blocks pre-synaptic D2 receptors, therfore increasing DA release.
Posted by rod on June 24, 2003, at 14:27:51
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling; Correction, posted by Caleb462 on June 24, 2003, at 13:17:30
> > > > > "BuSpar lowers the genetically elevated 5HT1 receptor that causes persistent worry, and is aggravated by SSRI's. Those with post traumatic stress disorder appear to have an elevated 5HT-2 receptor that can be worsened by BuSpar and also need Remeron, usually only for a few months".
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>One more (of many) examples of where Doc Heller says that Buspar lowers 5HT1a site (that's his quote, I chopped off the person's lengthy question just to save space)
> > > > >
> > > > > Caleb "Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?"
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> no, that's not what he means dude, he says that ssri's raise the 5HT1a site that causes those problems for some and that Buspar lowers (he even said "blocks" in some responses) that site....later!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, Buspar is a partial agonist at 5-HT1a... and so perhaps could block serotonin from getting to that site. However, that makes no difference since buspar itself acts like serotonin by ACTIVATING the 5-HT1a site. 5-HT1a receptors will respond in the same manner after repeated treatment to either an SSRI or Buspar. I'm no expert... I could be wrong, but what he's saying doesn't seem to make any sense.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think you are right, this doesn't seem to make sense.
> > > Base on my personal opinion:
> > > Both, Buspar and the ssris, downregulate (desensitization) the 1a receptor by stimulating this site, through different mechanisms (direct or by blocking the reuptake pump). Progolnged stimulation causes downregulation.
> > > But the huge digfference ist that the ssris cause a disruption in dopamine efflux at the beginning of treatment and Buspar is also a D2 Agonist (its acting like dopamine; not blocking)
> > > So I think the reason why Buspar is good for ssri induced anxiety, at the beginning of treatment, is because Buspar somewhat compensates the decreased dopamine efflux by directly stimulation this site (d2).
> > > thats my personal opinion.
> > >
> > > Roland
> >
> > well, I really thought Buspar acts like an agonist, but I re-checked this and it turned out to be wrong. It acts like an antagonist (blocker). So just forget my above post. sorry.
> > I dont know how it works.
>
> I believe the idea is that it primarily blocks pre-synaptic D2 receptors, therfore increasing DA release.
maybe, I looked at a previous thread:
"Buspar: dopamine agonist or antagonist? (Eliz?)"
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030624/msgs/236668.htmlI really have no real clue how this drug works. I dont even know what *partial* agonist means. I dont think it stands for the selectivity towards a specific receptor subtype. maybe the answer lies within this term. the poeple from the mentioned thread also dont really know whats going on.
Posted by McPac on June 24, 2003, at 17:02:21
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling; Correction, posted by rod on June 24, 2003, at 14:27:51
Posted by Caleb462 on June 24, 2003, at 22:24:31
In reply to Re: Caleb/Others, Re: Calling; Correction, posted by rod on June 24, 2003, at 14:27:51
> > > > > > "BuSpar lowers the genetically elevated 5HT1 receptor that causes persistent worry, and is aggravated by SSRI's. Those with post traumatic stress disorder appear to have an elevated 5HT-2 receptor that can be worsened by BuSpar and also need Remeron, usually only for a few months".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>One more (of many) examples of where Doc Heller says that Buspar lowers 5HT1a site (that's his quote, I chopped off the person's lengthy question just to save space)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caleb "Perhaps he means that adding Buspar will quicken the process of 5-HT1a desensitization. Yes, that is probably what he means... I guess?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> no, that's not what he means dude, he says that ssri's raise the 5HT1a site that causes those problems for some and that Buspar lowers (he even said "blocks" in some responses) that site....later!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, Buspar is a partial agonist at 5-HT1a... and so perhaps could block serotonin from getting to that site. However, that makes no difference since buspar itself acts like serotonin by ACTIVATING the 5-HT1a site. 5-HT1a receptors will respond in the same manner after repeated treatment to either an SSRI or Buspar. I'm no expert... I could be wrong, but what he's saying doesn't seem to make any sense.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think you are right, this doesn't seem to make sense.
> > > > Base on my personal opinion:
> > > > Both, Buspar and the ssris, downregulate (desensitization) the 1a receptor by stimulating this site, through different mechanisms (direct or by blocking the reuptake pump). Progolnged stimulation causes downregulation.
> > > > But the huge digfference ist that the ssris cause a disruption in dopamine efflux at the beginning of treatment and Buspar is also a D2 Agonist (its acting like dopamine; not blocking)
> > > > So I think the reason why Buspar is good for ssri induced anxiety, at the beginning of treatment, is because Buspar somewhat compensates the decreased dopamine efflux by directly stimulation this site (d2).
> > > > thats my personal opinion.
> > > >
> > > > Roland
> > >
> > > well, I really thought Buspar acts like an agonist, but I re-checked this and it turned out to be wrong. It acts like an antagonist (blocker). So just forget my above post. sorry.
> > > I dont know how it works.
> >
> > I believe the idea is that it primarily blocks pre-synaptic D2 receptors, therfore increasing DA release.
>
>
> maybe, I looked at a previous thread:
> "Buspar: dopamine agonist or antagonist? (Eliz?)"
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030624/msgs/236668.html
>
> I really have no real clue how this drug works. I dont even know what *partial* agonist means. I dont think it stands for the selectivity towards a specific receptor subtype. maybe the answer lies within this term. the poeple from the mentioned thread also dont really know whats going on.I've always been a bit confused by the term myself. Here is a definition I found -
Partial agonist = a compound which possesses affinity for a receptor, but unlike a full agonist, will elicit only a small degree of the pharmacological response peculiar to the nature of the receptor involved, even if a high proportion of receptors are occupied by the compound.
This is the end of the thread.
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