![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:17:06
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » chloe, posted by Ritch on June 14, 2003, at 10:29:31
> Hi Chloe, Valium tended to make me *very* depressed at times. I don't know why. If I take Klonopin in the daytime I will feel a *little* down but nothing like Valium did to me. If I am really upset, it (Klonopin) tends to have an antidepressant effect or rather an anti-mixed state effect. I've got some hunches that Ativan or Xanax might work even better for me. I've tried them in the past and didn't experience any depression from them. I know that Ativan and Klonopin are the two preferred benzos to help bring down manic reactions (along with other meds). hope this helps some--Mitch
Hi Mitch,
It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
Take care,
Chloe
Posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:20:24
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin?, posted by avid abulia on June 14, 2003, at 13:00:07
> klonopin is (at least amongst my circle of acquaintences) usually taken everyday, and valium is usually taken prn (whether for epilepsy or psych disorders). i should perhaps have also added that, while for me, valium is a good prn drug in low doses, if i do something stupid like drink a beer or something and go into status partial (what i name the <<piss-my-pants-and-go-to-town-and-forget-my-name-for-two-hours syndrome>>) and the psychiatric nuttiness bound to follow that winds me up in a psych unit, 1mg q.i.d. klonopin will get me stable enough to leave pretty tut suite and i can slowly disconinue it over a month and be okay.
>
> ~AAHi AA,
It's interesting that the pdocs didn't choose an AP over klonopin. This gives me hope it could help the agitated mixed states.
Thanks alot
Chloe
Posted by avid abulia on June 14, 2003, at 18:10:20
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:17:06
>
> Hi Mitch,
> It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...
>
> Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
>
> I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
> Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
> Take care,
> Chloe
>chloe--
like any drug, you can get tolerance to benzos. klonopin has a different enough relative affinity for subtypes of benzodiazepine receptors that a direct switch may work, or you may need another kind of tranquilizer for a few weeks to adjust for tolerance, it would very likely depend on you. klonopin has more studies backing its efficacy in mixed states (sorry, the links are not near at hand, i may come back later i can remember through this cloud) x(
also, manic reactions are not uncommon on xanax.
Posted by chloe on June 14, 2003, at 19:15:32
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Chloe, posted by avid abulia on June 14, 2003, at 18:10:20
>
> >
> > Hi Mitch,
> > It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...
> >
> > Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
> >
> > I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
> > Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
> > Take care,
> > Chloe
> >
>
> chloe--
>
> like any drug, you can get tolerance to benzos. klonopin has a different enough relative affinity for subtypes of benzodiazepine receptors that a direct switch may work, or you may need another kind of tranquilizer for a few weeks to adjust for tolerance, it would very likely depend on you. klonopin has more studies backing its efficacy in mixed states (sorry, the links are not near at hand, i may come back later i can remember through this cloud) x(
>
> also, manic reactions are not uncommon on xanax.
>
Thanks Mitch
Posted by Viridis on June 15, 2003, at 0:06:42
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Viridis, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 9:59:31
Hi Chloe,
I take 1 mg Klonopin every morning, and haven't had to increase the dose since I started it two years ago. My pdoc considers this a very small amount and has offered to increase it, but 1 mg works well for me, so I haven't taken him up on this. Many people with severe anxiety do best with a little more.
I do take 0.5 mg Xanax occasionally, if I have a really stressful situation. This works well, and I haven't noticed any interaction between Klonopin and Xanax. I can definitely feel the Xanax taking effect, whereas the Klonopin is very subtle, but extremely effective and long-lasting for anxiety on a day-to-day basis. I recommend it highly.
Posted by Viridis on June 15, 2003, at 0:37:23
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » avid abulia, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:20:24
Hi again Chloe,
I'm very prone to mixed states -- intense depression coupled with severe, obsessive anxiety. The anxiety usually comes first, then the depression spiral. During these times, I am almost completely unable to eat or sleep. I used to experience this several times a year (since I was a child, so we're talking 30+ years). Others in my family have similar problems.
Although things aren't perfect, I haven't had a major episode of this kind since starting Klonopin. My pdoc says it has some mood-stabilizing effects, and is impressed with how much it's helped me at what he considers a very low dose. He'd like me to stay with it indefinitely, and considers it very safe when used responsibly.
I find that K is a great antidepressant for anxiety-induced depression/agitation. Xanax is also a mood elevator for me, but more than about 0.5 mg makes me very sleepy, so its dosage is self-limiting in my case, and I use it only as an occasional adjunct.
BTW, fish oil also seems to help; I take about 6-8 g/day, for about 1.2 g EPA (which appears to be the most important component). It's a healthy thing to do anyway, for many reasons (e.g., cardiovascular benefits etc.), so you might consider adding this. I do not find it substitutes for the meds, but does seem to provide a bit of additional stability.
Posted by Ritch on June 15, 2003, at 9:39:23
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:17:06
> Hi Mitch,
> It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...
>
> Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
>
> I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
> Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
> Take care,
> Chloe
>
>
Hi Chloe, when you had your "paradoxical reaction" to Ativan-what exactly happened? Did you get hypo on it? Just wondering because I might ask my pdoc at some point about switching from Klon to Ativan. I was just given a few tabs of Ativan as samples for panic related to flying. It worked really well, but I took my baggage to an obviously wrong place (to MOST people) at the airport and the baggage dudes all laughed at me-it WAS pretty funny.I think you are right about Klonopin "putting the brakes on a mixed-state episode". If I get like that usually 1.0mg/day (up from .5mg/day) for a couple of days will take care of it-just feel a little tired. You might just ask your pdoc for a trial script of clonazepam (and try to get the dose equivalence to your valium right) and swap it out for a while and see how it goes-if it gets worse-switch back. Let us know what happens---take care--- Mitch
Posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:05:19
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Chloe, posted by Ritch on June 15, 2003, at 9:39:23
> Hi Chloe, when you had your "paradoxical reaction" to Ativan-what exactly happened? Did you get hypo on it? Just wondering because I might ask my pdoc at some point about switching from Klon to Ativan. I was just given a few tabs of Ativan as samples for panic related to flying. It worked really well, but I took my baggage to an obviously wrong place (to MOST people) at the airport and the baggage dudes all laughed at me-it WAS pretty funny.
Hi Mitch,
That airport story is funny! Maybe your next trial could be in a less stressful environment.
My Ativan trial (I looked it up) was in 1990. I wrote that I had severe anxiety and activation. I couldn't be still, pacing, etc. It does have a shorter half life than klonopin. So you might notice when it's wearing off if you don't take it regularly.
> I think you are right about Klonopin "putting the brakes on a mixed-state episode". If I get like that usually 1.0mg/day (up from .5mg/day) for a couple of days will take care of it-just feel a little tired. You might just ask your pdoc for a trial script of clonazepam (and try to get the dose equivalence to your valium right) and swap it out for a while and see how it goes-if it gets worse-switch back. Let us know what happens---take care--- MitchThanks-I have an appointment this thursday. So we will see how it goes. I am impressed though, that upping my Valium by 5mgs/day has had little effect on anxiety and mixed states. I am not sedated at all, like I have feared if I am at work, and I still feel so keyed up, like my heart is racing a bit. I wonder if that is related to the thyroid stuff that I can't seem to get an endo appt for! Hopefully thursday I can get a slip to get labs drawn too.
Chloe
Posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:17:54
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin -- mixed states » Chloe, posted by Viridis on June 15, 2003, at 0:37:23
> Hi again Chloe,
>
> I'm very prone to mixed states -- intense depression coupled with severe, obsessive anxiety. The anxiety usually comes first, then the depression spiral. During these times, I am almost completely unable to eat or sleep. I used to experience this several times a year (since I was a child, so we're talking 30+ years). Others in my family have similar problems.
>
> Although things aren't perfect, I haven't had a major episode of this kind since starting Klonopin. My pdoc says it has some mood-stabilizing effects, and is impressed with how much it's helped me at what he considers a very low dose. He'd like me to stay with it indefinitely, and considers it very safe when used responsibly.
>
> I find that K is a great antidepressant for anxiety-induced depression/agitation. Xanax is also a mood elevator for me, but more than about 0.5 mg makes me very sleepy, so its dosage is self-limiting in my case, and I use it only as an occasional adjunct.
>
> BTW, fish oil also seems to help; I take about 6-8 g/day, for about 1.2 g EPA (which appears to be the most important component). It's a healthy thing to do anyway, for many reasons (e.g., cardiovascular benefits etc.), so you might consider adding this. I do not find it substitutes for the meds, but does seem to provide a bit of additional stability.Thanks this is very useful. I am so glad to see a benzo used when an AP might be prescribed. K is much safer and much less side effects.
Wow, that is alot of fish oil. I did take 1 or 2 capsules for a while, but couldn't stand the "fish burps"! Yack! I do take a tbs of flaxseed oil day, however, I know that has alot of the omega 3-6-9, but I am unsure if it has any EPA. Flaxseed oil is quite palatable, and heart healthy too. Not sure if it helps mood. I hope so, I love it!
Take care,
Chloe
Posted by Viridis on June 16, 2003, at 2:01:28
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin -- mixed states » Viridis, posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:17:54
Hi Chloe,
Another oil that I really like is hemp oil. It has a nice, nutty taste, and is the closest to fish oil you can get from a vegetable source. It's great in salad dressing (can't be heated, so no good for cooking). The best prices I've found are at www.iherb.com (but it is still kind of expensive).
Re: real meds; give Klonopin a try -- at least for a couple of weeks, because you will probably need to get used to it (then no side effects at all, for me at least). Avoid the APs if you can; my impression is that these carry risks that don't occur with benzos. Benzos are great, because despite all the nonsense you see, they're extremely safe,clean meds. It's just that they're off-patent, so too inxpensive to warrant promotion.
Posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 9:43:12
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:05:19
> > Hi Chloe, when you had your "paradoxical reaction" to Ativan-what exactly happened? Did you get hypo on it? Just wondering because I might ask my pdoc at some point about switching from Klon to Ativan. I was just given a few tabs of Ativan as samples for panic related to flying. It worked really well, but I took my baggage to an obviously wrong place (to MOST people) at the airport and the baggage dudes all laughed at me-it WAS pretty funny.
>
> Hi Mitch,
> That airport story is funny! Maybe your next trial could be in a less stressful environment.
> My Ativan trial (I looked it up) was in 1990. I wrote that I had severe anxiety and activation. I couldn't be still, pacing, etc. It does have a shorter half life than klonopin. So you might notice when it's wearing off if you don't take it regularly.
>
> > I think you are right about Klonopin "putting the brakes on a mixed-state episode". If I get like that usually 1.0mg/day (up from .5mg/day) for a couple of days will take care of it-just feel a little tired. You might just ask your pdoc for a trial script of clonazepam (and try to get the dose equivalence to your valium right) and swap it out for a while and see how it goes-if it gets worse-switch back. Let us know what happens---take care--- Mitch
>
> Thanks-I have an appointment this thursday. So we will see how it goes. I am impressed though, that upping my Valium by 5mgs/day has had little effect on anxiety and mixed states. I am not sedated at all, like I have feared if I am at work, and I still feel so keyed up, like my heart is racing a bit. I wonder if that is related to the thyroid stuff that I can't seem to get an endo appt for! Hopefully thursday I can get a slip to get labs drawn too.
> Chloe
>
>Chloe, the short half-life (12 hrs?) of Ativan (lorazepam) might be a problem for sure. The only other benzos I've taken chronically previously were chlordiazepoxide (Librium) and Valium and they both last much longer. OTOH, if I just take it at bedtime for sleep, and don't find the rebound anxiety (or rebound hypomania) annoying during the day that would suit me find. Too bad you had that paradoxical reaction-interesting that you didn't have that trouble with *others*. I am wondering about your thyroid situation as well. You may need to get an endocrinologist involved with your pdoc to straighten those out. Let us know how your appt. goes with the pdoc about the Klonopin----good luck---Mitch
Posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 11:21:41
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin -- mixed states, posted by Viridis on June 16, 2003, at 2:01:28
>
> Another oil that I really like is hemp oil. It has a nice, nutty taste, and is the closest to fish oil you can get from a vegetable source. It's great in salad dressing (can't be heated, so no good for cooking). The best prices I've found are at www.iherb.com (but it is still kind of expensive).Hi,
Hemp oil sounds alot like faxseed oil, nutty flavor and you can't heat it. I am assuming it has EPA where FS Oil doesnt? I will look into it. I use Barlean's Flax seed oil. It's unbelievable expensive so I buy 32oz size and store unused in the freezer. I will give you the link if you are interested, though I don't think they sell hemp oil... :http://www.barleans.com/products/oils.html
>
> Re: real meds; give Klonopin a try -- at least for a couple of weeks, because you will probably need to get used to it (then no side effects at all, for me at least). Avoid the APs if you can; my impression is that these carry risks that don't occur with benzos. Benzos are great, because despite all the nonsense you see, they're extremely safe,clean meds. It's just that they're off-patent, so too inxpensive to warrant promotion.Your last sentence is interesting...
Yes, I try to avoid AP's at all costs. I take them only when necessary, about once a week when the suicadal thoughts get out of control or my thinking is so skewed, I can't understand people. I can get very paranoid. But I also have permanent tongue movements and bruxism from use of APs over the years. SOO, I am hoping a "better" benzo might keep me from going up or down so much that I end up in a scary mixed state. I bet my pdoc goes for it and I can give K a try...I'll know on thursday.
Thanks alot,
Chloe>
Posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 11:36:04
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Chloe, posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 9:43:12
> Chloe, the short half-life (12 hrs?) of Ativan (lorazepam) might be a problem for sure. The only other benzos I've taken chronically previously were chlordiazepoxide (Librium) and Valium and they both last much longer. OTOH, if I just take it at bedtime for sleep, and don't find the rebound anxiety (or rebound hypomania) annoying during the day that would suit me find. Too bad you had that paradoxical reaction-interesting that you didn't have that trouble with *others*. I am wondering about your thyroid situation as well. You may need to get an endocrinologist involved with your pdoc to straighten those out. Let us know how your appt. goes with the pdoc about the Klonopin----good luck---Mitch
Hi Mitch,
I think Lorazapam has a half life of about 8-24 hours, depending on how you metabolize it. It also peaks in 3-4 hours. So, like you said, perhaps taking it at night, you could avoid any rebound or crash. I believe, for the "average" user!, it is far less sedating and depressive than librium, valium or klonopin.Do you see you med person soon? I know you are thinking about also adding some lamictal (eventually) to the mix too...
Chloe
Posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 13:16:57
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 11:36:04
> > Chloe, the short half-life (12 hrs?) of Ativan (lorazepam) might be a problem for sure. The only other benzos I've taken chronically previously were chlordiazepoxide (Librium) and Valium and they both last much longer. OTOH, if I just take it at bedtime for sleep, and don't find the rebound anxiety (or rebound hypomania) annoying during the day that would suit me find. Too bad you had that paradoxical reaction-interesting that you didn't have that trouble with *others*. I am wondering about your thyroid situation as well. You may need to get an endocrinologist involved with your pdoc to straighten those out. Let us know how your appt. goes with the pdoc about the Klonopin----good luck---Mitch
>
> Hi Mitch,
> I think Lorazapam has a half life of about 8-24 hours, depending on how you metabolize it. It also peaks in 3-4 hours. So, like you said, perhaps taking it at night, you could avoid any rebound or crash. I believe, for the "average" user!, it is far less sedating and depressive than librium, valium or klonopin.
>
> Do you see you med person soon? I know you are thinking about also adding some lamictal (eventually) to the mix too...
> Chloe
Chloe, I'm holding with Depakote 250mg ER + Klonopin .5mg HS, and a microdose of Effexor in the AM, and added 3.75mg buspirone last visit as an experiment for GAD sx and to boost the Effexor (without needing to increase it). It made my early morning awakening WORSE when I took it at bedtime. Switched to taking it only first thing in the AM. That has helped some. I will give it a full two-three weeks and if there isn't a clear trend towards improving sleep (startup effects?), it is going to get ditched. Then perhaps we'll talk about the possible lorazepam switch. I have a feeling that using low-dose lorazepam as a sleeper will work better than the clon. and I will have more energy the next day. Lamictal? I don't want to tinker with that idea until this upcoming spell is fully over with (when I'm stable in the fall). I'm already gaining weight and having carb craving, YUCK!
Posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 20:13:21
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » chloe, posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 13:16:57
> Chloe, I'm holding with Depakote 250mg ER + Klonopin .5mg HS, and a microdose of Effexor in the AM, and added 3.75mg buspirone last visit as an experiment for GAD sx and to boost the Effexor (without needing to increase it). It made my early morning awakening WORSE when I took it at bedtime. Switched to taking it only first thing in the AM. That has helped some. I will give it a full two-three weeks and if there isn't a clear trend towards improving sleep (startup effects?), it is going to get ditched. Then perhaps we'll talk about the possible lorazepam switch. I have a feeling that using low-dose lorazepam as a sleeper will work better than the clon. and I will have more energy the next day. Lamictal? I don't want to tinker with that idea until this upcoming spell is fully over with (when I'm stable in the fall). I'm already gaining weight and having carb craving, YUCK!
Hi Mitch,
It seems all the rules that held true during the spring, emotionally, no longer apply, at least for me. Could some of the increased E.M waking also have to do with the increased amount of daylight? I awaken as soon as the sun emerges over the horizon, and now that's about 4:58 am UUGH! In the winter I can sleep til 10 am without stirring once. That is a gift!Yes, I would wait on the lamictal too. Lamictal is a biggy. You have to wait a long to hit therapeutic dose, and you do have to be on the look out for major side effects.
Hey one K question: How long does it take to kick in? I took 5 mg Valium prn yesterday (6pm) and felt nothing at all, no help. But today I have felt so fluish and tired, hard to move. I do have terrible hayfever, so it could be that...Or do you think it could be hangover effect? How long does Klonopin take to work generally? Any hangover effects?
Thanks
Chloe
Posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 23:43:42
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 20:13:21
> Hi Mitch,
> It seems all the rules that held true during the spring, emotionally, no longer apply, at least for me. Could some of the increased E.M waking also have to do with the increased amount of daylight? I awaken as soon as the sun emerges over the horizon, and now that's about 4:58 am UUGH! In the winter I can sleep til 10 am without stirring once. That is a gift!OK, I always used to have trouble with the sun waking me up too early as well in late Spring and early Summer. So, I got blackout material and put it over my windows and set my alarm clock for the same time every day (9AM). I think it has helped somewhat. But I think it just makes it easier AFTER an early-morning awakening to get BACK to sleep to get another hour or two in so I'm not as sleep deprived. I don't think it *prevents* an EMA. When I get an EMA, it is nearly a full hour before the light is increased. The birds start in early as they can. I remember when I was in college the first time and didn't have an air conditioner (so windows were open all the time with fans running), and the birds would start doing their thing just before the sun came up. I can hear them now through closed windows in the mornings-do you think the *sound* of the birds chirping (crickets-whatever) is filtering in while I am tring to sleep, maybe triggering a subconscious wake reaction?
> Hey one K question: How long does it take to kick in? I took 5 mg Valium prn yesterday (6pm) and felt nothing at all, no help. But today I have felt so fluish and tired, hard to move. I do have terrible hayfever, so it could be that...Or do you think it could be hangover effect? How long does Klonopin take to work generally? Any hangover effects?
> Thanks
> Chloe
>
Benzos always "kicked-in" right away for me-no matter which ones they were. It might take more or less depending on the symptoms that were being treated. I wonder if your troubles have to do with your thyroid status and that until you get that figured/straightened out the BZD's are a secondary issue??
Posted by chloe on June 17, 2003, at 14:29:07
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » chloe, posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 23:43:42
> > Hi Mitch,
> > It seems all the rules that held true during the spring, emotionally, no longer apply, at least for me. Could some of the increased E.M waking also have to do with the increased amount of daylight? I awaken as soon as the sun emerges over the horizon, and now that's about 4:58 am UUGH! In the winter I can sleep til 10 am without stirring once. That is a gift!
>
> OK, I always used to have trouble with the sun waking me up too early as well in late Spring and early Summer. So, I got blackout material and put it over my windows and set my alarm clock for the same time every day (9AM). I think it has helped somewhat. But I think it just makes it easier AFTER an early-morning awakening to get BACK to sleep to get another hour or two in so I'm not as sleep deprived. I don't think it *prevents* an EMA. When I get an EMA, it is nearly a full hour before the light is increased. The birds start in early as they can. I remember when I was in college the first time and didn't have an air conditioner (so windows were open all the time with fans running), and the birds would start doing their thing just before the sun came up. I can hear them now through closed windows in the mornings-do you think the *sound* of the birds chirping (crickets-whatever) is filtering in while I am tring to sleep, maybe triggering a subconscious wake reaction?Hi Mitch,
I have no idea what is that makes up awaken for no good reason. I just blame it on this time of year. Perhaps it more complicated...
>
>
> > Hey one K question: How long does it take to kick in? I took 5 mg Valium prn yesterday (6pm) and felt nothing at all, no help. But today I have felt so fluish and tired, hard to move. I do have terrible hayfever, so it could be that...Or do you think it could be hangover effect? How long does Klonopin take to work generally? Any hangover effects?
> > Thanks
> > Chloe
> >
>
>
> Benzos always "kicked-in" right away for me-no matter which ones they were. It might take more or less depending on the symptoms that were being treated. I wonder if your troubles have to do with your thyroid status and that until you get that figured/straightened out the BZD's are a secondary issue??Yes, thyroid definitely has to be addressed too. I think my pdoc will get an earful about that from me on thursday. I am so angry that she continues me on a med (T3) that she doesn't even monitor..GRRR. But that seems like SOP for checking labs. Monitoring Li once a year or less seems to be the norm now. I remember when it was once a month! I know my thryoid should be checked more than every 8 months, esp. when the values are off!! I am going to get this worked out...thanks for the reminder.
Chloe
>
Posted by Ritch on June 17, 2003, at 23:24:58
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by chloe on June 17, 2003, at 14:29:07
Posted by chloe on June 19, 2003, at 17:37:58
In reply to Let us know how your appt. goes.... (nm) » chloe, posted by Ritch on June 17, 2003, at 23:24:58
Hi
The appointment went ok. My pdoc agreed that a trial of clonazapam would be good. She said there are lots of studies proving Klonopin useful for anxiety, mixed states, rage, but little with Valium (probably because it can be so abused). So it was hard for her to truly know which works better. But she said if I were try a benzo for the first time now, Klonopin would probably the first choice. So I am trying 1 mgs clonaz. in place of my 5 of valium tonight, then after a week switch my am dose of V to clonaz, etc. She said a goal of 2-3 mgs seemed reasonable.
I am glad she was willing to make a change.She did NOT want to change my 5mcgs T3 until I see the endo she has lined up for me. Though she has not been able to get me an appointment for over 2 months, and my pdoc is the chief of psych. in the hospital. I don't see why I can't see someone else...But apparently this endo is very good with thyroid and female hormone issue (which maybe alot of my problem. I have amazing irregular and difficult period cycles). So I have to stick it out with the T3, but I do have a lab slip to get Li, TSH, T3 and T4 checked, yeah! So at least we won't be in the dark where I stand physically.
My pdoc didn't really have any other ideas of how to calm my cycling. Though she does hope TMS will be FDA approved, and will be available soon. She says since ECT was so useful for me, TMS maybe something helpful to me. It's worth investing, I guess... So, I have to just keep taking the lithium, and specks of doxepin and T3 and hope that the clonazapam has a more powerful effect of agitation and irritability without making me too depressed! Any thoughts Mitch?
Well, I guess that is it in a nut shell
Chloe
Posted by pseudonym on June 20, 2003, at 0:53:58
In reply to My med appointment-not alot of options, posted by chloe on June 19, 2003, at 17:37:58
Lets do some math here. You're quadrupling your benzo dose by going from 5mg V to 1mg K.
5mg Valium is equal to .25mg K, and you're doing directly to 1 on your way to 2 or 3? Perhaps a lateral move would be more advised, such as going to .25 mg K twice a day, which would only be doubling your dose.
Posted by Chloe on June 20, 2003, at 12:27:20
In reply to Re: My med appointment-not alot of options, posted by pseudonym on June 20, 2003, at 0:53:58
> Lets do some math here. You're quadrupling your benzo dose by going from 5mg V to 1mg K.
>
> 5mg Valium is equal to .25mg K, and you're doing directly to 1 on your way to 2 or 3? Perhaps a lateral move would be more advised, such as going to .25 mg K twice a day, which would only be doubling your dose.Hi,
My pdoc didn't think that .25 mgs of K was going to be equal to 5 V since I have been on V for 15 or more years. She thought since I was well habituated to V, that I could easily switch 5 V for 1 K. Perhaps this is too much, but I took 1 K last night and I am not zonked or hungover. My only minor complaint is a mild headache.
Bottomline, I believe my pdoc thinks the crossover charts for V and K are too low. Maybe because of their long halflives? I don't know. But thanks for pointing this out. And if it's I start feeling zoned out or crumby I will have a good idea why!
Chloe
Posted by Maxime on June 20, 2003, at 16:49:02
In reply to Re: My med appointment-not alot of options » pseudonym, posted by Chloe on June 20, 2003, at 12:27:20
Other than Lithium, have you tried any of the other mood stabilisers out there?
Max
Posted by Chloe on June 20, 2003, at 17:01:19
In reply to Re: My med appointment-not alot of options-Chloe, posted by Maxime on June 20, 2003, at 16:49:02
> Other than Lithium, have you tried any of the other mood stabilisers out there?
>
> MaxYes, literally all--depakote, tegratol, trileptal, topamax, Lamictal, neurontin...blah, blah on it goes. Most stabilizers give me terrible skin and scalp pain-like I am on fire. Some worked ok, but the side effects are just intolerable. Lithium is the best so far...But it's "pooping out" a bit in the cycling area which is very difficult.
I hope Klonopin can settle things down a bit. Perhaps it's unlikely. But as I said, I have few options left.
Chloe
Posted by Maxime on June 20, 2003, at 17:35:18
In reply to Re: My med appointment-not alot of options-Chloe » Maxime, posted by Chloe on June 20, 2003, at 17:01:19
Never say never! Who knows, Klonopin may be the one.
I have been on every mood stabiliser and anti-psychotic. I am trying Lamictal now and if doesn't work then I am left with Trileptal. It's scary when you feel like you have are running out of things to try.
Also, maybe when pregabalin comes out it would be worth you trying.
Hang in there.
Max
Posted by Emme on June 20, 2003, at 22:12:26
In reply to My med appointment-not alot of options, posted by chloe on June 19, 2003, at 17:37:58
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.