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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 47. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by chloe on June 13, 2003, at 18:00:14
I have bp2 and have been taking valium 5 bid, for over 15 years I think. It has really low side effects for me, and used to work pretty well for the rage attacks, mixed states.
But it's not working so well now. My pdoc will probably just want to raise the dose. But is Klonopin perhaps a better for balancing out the mood? I can't take any of the traditional stabilizers, I get skin burning and rashes. Lithium, valium and if I have to prn 25mgs Seroquel are my meds.
Might Klonopin be a better benzo? Does it tend to have alot of side effects? Any imput appreciated,
Super Cycling Chloe
Posted by Janelle on June 13, 2003, at 18:38:45
In reply to valium vs klonopin?, posted by chloe on June 13, 2003, at 18:00:14
Hi Chole, I like your name "Super Cycling Chole" -- that happens to be me lately "Super Cycling Janelle"
I also have bp2 and I have been taking KLONOPIN for many, many years - like EONS. In fact, I'm going to taper OFF it because it doesn't work for me anymore. My body has become habituated to it. But do NOT let that discourage you - I had GREAT results with it for a long time.
I can't answer if Klonopin is better for balancing out the mood than Valium, especially because NEITHER of these meds are designed to do that. They are anti-anxiety, (well Klonopin started off as anti-seizure for epilepsy)
You said you can't take ANY of the mood stabilizers - have you tried more than just the one you mentioned? There are quite a few. Just wondering. They can also be combined in LOW doses which might avoid the rashes and burning (that's what the pdoc is trying with me because I can't tolerate high doses - I get other type side effects, so for now I'm on two mood stabilizers at low doses)
Anyway, to answer your question, and this is JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, I would say that it is worth giving Klonopin a try because it is slow acting, smooth, subtle, has a long half-life (lasts all day or should) and I personally had NO side effects from it!
The *average* person might report that it can be SEDATING, real sedating, but you could start off low and slow, and take it at night. Heck, it might help you sleep. I was given a hefty dose once to see if it would put me to sleep and nope! I remained wide awake; very frustrating. I have to use Seroquel for sleep, not as an A-P!
Good luck 2 U!
Posted by chloe on June 13, 2003, at 19:18:01
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » chloe, posted by Janelle on June 13, 2003, at 18:38:45
> Hi Chole, I like your name "Super Cycling Chole" -- that happens to be me lately "Super Cycling Janelle"
Hey, fellow cycler!
>
> I also have bp2 and I have been taking KLONOPIN for many, many years - like EONS. In fact, I'm going to taper OFF it because it doesn't work for me anymore. My body has become habituated to it. But do NOT let that discourage you - I had GREAT results with it for a long time.I had great results with valiums for eons. I wonder if it has pooped out after all this time. We are talking decades, though.
>
> I can't answer if Klonopin is better for balancing out the mood than Valium, especially because NEITHER of these meds are designed to do that. They are anti-anxiety, (well Klonopin started off as anti-seizure for epilepsy)
>
> You said you can't take ANY of the mood stabilizers - have you tried more than just the one you mentioned? There are quite a few. Just wondering. They can also be combined in LOW doses which might avoid the rashes and burning (that's what the pdoc is trying with me because I can't tolerate high doses - I get other type side effects, so for now I'm on two mood stabilizers at low doses)I think I have been on all and combos of all mood stabilizers. I was on depakote, tegretol, trileptal, neurontin, topamax...to name a few. I generally feel blah and anxious at the same time AND have the awful skin rashes and scalp burn. Lithium has been the best for me. But now it seems to be doing nothing. But I am sure if I went off it, I would see that it is infact helping. Just not as much as I need to function!
>
> Anyway, to answer your question, and this is JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, I would say that it is worth giving Klonopin a try because it is slow acting, smooth, subtle, has a long half-life (lasts all day or should) and I personally had NO side effects from it!
>
> The *average* person might report that it can be SEDATING, real sedating, but you could start off low and slow, and take it at night. Heck, it might help you sleep. I was given a hefty dose once to see if it would put me to sleep and nope! I remained wide awake; very frustrating. I have to use Seroquel for sleep, not as an A-P!I am sure Klonopin would put me to sleep. I think I was given it by accident once, and I was knocked out! But I am sure that was a large dose-more than I would take at least to start.
BTW, do you know anything about switching Benzos? Do I have to taper off one and start the other? Or can I just switch by taking the equivalent dosage? Thanks so much
>
> Good luck 2 U!Good luck to you, I hope you cycling settles down soon :)
Chloe
Posted by jdgjdg on June 13, 2003, at 20:09:30
In reply to valium vs klonopin?, posted by chloe on June 13, 2003, at 18:00:14
I take klonopin occasionally for ocd symptoms. I only take 1mg when I'm having a panic attack. It works very well to calm me down and puts me to sleep. It does make me feel a little clumsy and "drugged up", but it's a small price to pay when you need to calm down. I wouldn't recommend it if you have to leave the house or drive anywhere. Good luck
Posted by Janelle on June 13, 2003, at 20:15:25
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin?, posted by chloe on June 13, 2003, at 19:18:01
According to my experience, YES, you CAN switch benzo's by going from one equivalent dose to the other. In other words, and this is HYPOTHETICAL only, if 1mg Klonopin = 4 mg Valium, you could go from taking 4mg Valium to taking 1mg Klonopin.
In the hospital, for a short while, I was switched from Klonopin to Ativan, equivalent dosing.
I also remember being in a pdoc's office and that pdoc had a book where she looked up benzo equivalents in order to be able to just switch people, making sure she was giving them equivalent doses.
However, you might want to do an official search on this, as it's only my limited experience that I can tell you.
Posted by avid abulia on June 13, 2003, at 22:26:52
In reply to SWITCHING Benzo's ... » chloe, posted by Janelle on June 13, 2003, at 20:15:25
it sort of depends on you, because the benzodiazepine receptors are fairly complex, with different subtypes having different effects. valium and klonopin are the usual anticonvulsant benzos used in psychiatry (clobazam is usually reserved for extreme cases of refractory epilepsy, as it is very strong and it poops out quickly.) in addition, the different benzos have different tissue affinities as well as relative sub-type affinities-- valium has a greater affinity for the spinal chord and is a better muscle relaxant than klonopin, whereas klonopin is generally regarded as having more of an antimanic effect. it is also more common to see epileptics taking klonopin prophylacively, as opposed to valium which is more often used prn immediately upon getting an aura (not always the case, though, and if anyone out there thinks i am wrong, please correct me) it also induces tryptophan hydroxylase, leading to more serotonin production, but that isn`t always as good a thing as you would think. serotonin is one neurotransmitter that releases corticotropin releasing factor and raises blood cortisol.
i personally do better on valium than klonopin, i got pretty depressed on klonopin. and i realize that i am talking to mostly psych-only cases here, but there are similarities between epilepsy and mental illness.
Posted by Viridis on June 14, 2003, at 5:07:25
In reply to valium vs klonopin?, posted by chloe on June 13, 2003, at 18:00:14
I'd definitely try Klonopin (clonazepam) -- it works very well for me, with no side effects beyond those that I experienced in the first week or so (mild sedation etc.). I didn't react well to Valium; I felt too drugged-out, although I never gave it a decent trial. However, my impression is that Klonopin is more effective than Valium for the average anxiety sufferer.
Klonopin is great for me, and based on the posts here, it seems to rate very highly as an antianxiety med with few side effects for most people who take it. I strongly recommend a trial with it -- just give it a week or two to get over the possible side effects, which were minor for me.
Posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 9:55:29
In reply to Re: SWITCHING Benzo's ..., posted by avid abulia on June 13, 2003, at 22:26:52
> it sort of depends on you, because the benzodiazepine receptors are fairly complex, with different subtypes having different effects. valium and klonopin are the usual anticonvulsant benzos used in psychiatry (clobazam is usually reserved for extreme cases of refractory epilepsy, as it is very strong and it poops out quickly.) in addition, the different benzos have different tissue affinities as well as relative sub-type affinities-- valium has a greater affinity for the spinal chord and is a better muscle relaxant than klonopin, whereas klonopin is generally regarded as having more of an antimanic effect. it is also more common to see epileptics taking klonopin prophylacively, as opposed to valium which is more often used prn immediately upon getting an aura (not always the case, though, and if anyone out there thinks i am wrong, please correct me) it also induces tryptophan hydroxylase, leading to more serotonin production, but that isn`t always as good a thing as you would think. serotonin is one neurotransmitter that releases corticotropin releasing factor and raises blood cortisol.
I know that each benzo affects different receptors. Years ago I had a paradoxical effect to ativan, and became psychotic with Xanax...I have never had a trial of Klonopin. But I do like the idea that it has antimanic qualities. Lately I am just trying to function is a scary, angry, agitated mixed state. AP's have been useful for this, but the side effects (TD/EPS) are too great to take regularly.
Getting more depressed with K is a concern...I have never investigated Cortisol levels. Humm
>
> i personally do better on valium than klonopin, i got pretty depressed on klonopin. and i realize that i am talking to mostly psych-only cases here, but there are similarities between epilepsy and mental illness.I imagine there are similarities between mental illness and epilepsy. A good deal of the meds in the psych arsensal are anti-epileptic.
Thank you and take care,
Chloe
Posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 9:59:31
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » chloe, posted by Viridis on June 14, 2003, at 5:07:25
> I'd definitely try Klonopin (clonazepam) -- it works very well for me, with no side effects beyond those that I experienced in the first week or so (mild sedation etc.). I didn't react well to Valium; I felt too drugged-out, although I never gave it a decent trial. However, my impression is that Klonopin is more effective than Valium for the average anxiety sufferer.
I always wondered why most psych patients are on K rather than V. I have never been offered a trial of it in my long psych career. Always Valium. I am going to ask my pdoc about it next week. Do you take K on a regular basis or prn? I have taken Valium regularly for years. Is this common with K?
Thanks alot,
Chloe
>
> Klonopin is great for me, and based on the posts here, it seems to rate very highly as an antianxiety med with few side effects for most people who take it. I strongly recommend a trial with it -- just give it a week or two to get over the possible side effects, which were minor for me.
Posted by Ritch on June 14, 2003, at 10:29:31
In reply to valium vs klonopin?, posted by chloe on June 13, 2003, at 18:00:14
> I have bp2 and have been taking valium 5 bid, for over 15 years I think. It has really low side effects for me, and used to work pretty well for the rage attacks, mixed states.
>
> But it's not working so well now. My pdoc will probably just want to raise the dose. But is Klonopin perhaps a better for balancing out the mood? I can't take any of the traditional stabilizers, I get skin burning and rashes. Lithium, valium and if I have to prn 25mgs Seroquel are my meds.
>
> Might Klonopin be a better benzo? Does it tend to have alot of side effects? Any imput appreciated,
>
> Super Cycling ChloeHi Chloe, Valium tended to make me *very* depressed at times. I don't know why. If I take Klonopin in the daytime I will feel a *little* down but nothing like Valium did to me. If I am really upset, it (Klonopin) tends to have an antidepressant effect or rather an anti-mixed state effect. I've got some hunches that Ativan or Xanax might work even better for me. I've tried them in the past and didn't experience any depression from them. I know that Ativan and Klonopin are the two preferred benzos to help bring down manic reactions (along with other meds). hope this helps some--Mitch
Posted by avid abulia on June 14, 2003, at 13:00:07
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » chloe, posted by Ritch on June 14, 2003, at 10:29:31
klonopin is (at least amongst my circle of acquaintences) usually taken everyday, and valium is usually taken prn (whether for epilepsy or psych disorders). i should perhaps have also added that, while for me, valium is a good prn drug in low doses, if i do something stupid like drink a beer or something and go into status partial (what i name the <<piss-my-pants-and-go-to-town-and-forget-my-name-for-two-hours syndrome>>) and the psychiatric nuttiness bound to follow that winds me up in a psych unit, 1mg q.i.d. klonopin will get me stable enough to leave pretty tut suite and i can slowly disconinue it over a month and be okay.
~AA
Posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:17:06
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » chloe, posted by Ritch on June 14, 2003, at 10:29:31
> Hi Chloe, Valium tended to make me *very* depressed at times. I don't know why. If I take Klonopin in the daytime I will feel a *little* down but nothing like Valium did to me. If I am really upset, it (Klonopin) tends to have an antidepressant effect or rather an anti-mixed state effect. I've got some hunches that Ativan or Xanax might work even better for me. I've tried them in the past and didn't experience any depression from them. I know that Ativan and Klonopin are the two preferred benzos to help bring down manic reactions (along with other meds). hope this helps some--Mitch
Hi Mitch,
It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
Take care,
Chloe
Posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:20:24
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin?, posted by avid abulia on June 14, 2003, at 13:00:07
> klonopin is (at least amongst my circle of acquaintences) usually taken everyday, and valium is usually taken prn (whether for epilepsy or psych disorders). i should perhaps have also added that, while for me, valium is a good prn drug in low doses, if i do something stupid like drink a beer or something and go into status partial (what i name the <<piss-my-pants-and-go-to-town-and-forget-my-name-for-two-hours syndrome>>) and the psychiatric nuttiness bound to follow that winds me up in a psych unit, 1mg q.i.d. klonopin will get me stable enough to leave pretty tut suite and i can slowly disconinue it over a month and be okay.
>
> ~AAHi AA,
It's interesting that the pdocs didn't choose an AP over klonopin. This gives me hope it could help the agitated mixed states.
Thanks alot
Chloe
Posted by avid abulia on June 14, 2003, at 18:10:20
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:17:06
>
> Hi Mitch,
> It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...
>
> Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
>
> I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
> Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
> Take care,
> Chloe
>chloe--
like any drug, you can get tolerance to benzos. klonopin has a different enough relative affinity for subtypes of benzodiazepine receptors that a direct switch may work, or you may need another kind of tranquilizer for a few weeks to adjust for tolerance, it would very likely depend on you. klonopin has more studies backing its efficacy in mixed states (sorry, the links are not near at hand, i may come back later i can remember through this cloud) x(
also, manic reactions are not uncommon on xanax.
Posted by chloe on June 14, 2003, at 19:15:32
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Chloe, posted by avid abulia on June 14, 2003, at 18:10:20
>
> >
> > Hi Mitch,
> > It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...
> >
> > Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
> >
> > I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
> > Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
> > Take care,
> > Chloe
> >
>
> chloe--
>
> like any drug, you can get tolerance to benzos. klonopin has a different enough relative affinity for subtypes of benzodiazepine receptors that a direct switch may work, or you may need another kind of tranquilizer for a few weeks to adjust for tolerance, it would very likely depend on you. klonopin has more studies backing its efficacy in mixed states (sorry, the links are not near at hand, i may come back later i can remember through this cloud) x(
>
> also, manic reactions are not uncommon on xanax.
>
Thanks Mitch
Posted by Viridis on June 15, 2003, at 0:06:42
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Viridis, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 9:59:31
Hi Chloe,
I take 1 mg Klonopin every morning, and haven't had to increase the dose since I started it two years ago. My pdoc considers this a very small amount and has offered to increase it, but 1 mg works well for me, so I haven't taken him up on this. Many people with severe anxiety do best with a little more.
I do take 0.5 mg Xanax occasionally, if I have a really stressful situation. This works well, and I haven't noticed any interaction between Klonopin and Xanax. I can definitely feel the Xanax taking effect, whereas the Klonopin is very subtle, but extremely effective and long-lasting for anxiety on a day-to-day basis. I recommend it highly.
Posted by Viridis on June 15, 2003, at 0:37:23
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » avid abulia, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:20:24
Hi again Chloe,
I'm very prone to mixed states -- intense depression coupled with severe, obsessive anxiety. The anxiety usually comes first, then the depression spiral. During these times, I am almost completely unable to eat or sleep. I used to experience this several times a year (since I was a child, so we're talking 30+ years). Others in my family have similar problems.
Although things aren't perfect, I haven't had a major episode of this kind since starting Klonopin. My pdoc says it has some mood-stabilizing effects, and is impressed with how much it's helped me at what he considers a very low dose. He'd like me to stay with it indefinitely, and considers it very safe when used responsibly.
I find that K is a great antidepressant for anxiety-induced depression/agitation. Xanax is also a mood elevator for me, but more than about 0.5 mg makes me very sleepy, so its dosage is self-limiting in my case, and I use it only as an occasional adjunct.
BTW, fish oil also seems to help; I take about 6-8 g/day, for about 1.2 g EPA (which appears to be the most important component). It's a healthy thing to do anyway, for many reasons (e.g., cardiovascular benefits etc.), so you might consider adding this. I do not find it substitutes for the meds, but does seem to provide a bit of additional stability.
Posted by Ritch on June 15, 2003, at 9:39:23
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by Chloe on June 14, 2003, at 17:17:06
> Hi Mitch,
> It's funny you mention Ativan and Xanax. They didn't bring me down! I had a paradoxical reaction to ativan, and Xanax made me feel like I could (safely) jump out of my college 8th floor window. I was so sure I could make it!...
>
> Yes, I am sure there are some benzo's that have less of a depressive effect. But it seems that Klonopin could perhaps put the brakes on a mixed state episode? Valium doesn't touch mixed states or severe agitation. However, I wonder if my pdoc is just going to tell me to take more Valium? Can a benzo poop out after decades? I have taken it for so long, do you think switching will be difficul? I feel so anxious already. I don't want to make it worse!
>
> I don't understand it. I was sleeping GREAT, and feeling really calm, with little distorted thinking and agitation until about a month ago. Now things have shifted in a really negative way.
> Ugh, sorry to bore you. I guess I really don't like summer...(even though the weather has been extremely cool and raw).
> Take care,
> Chloe
>
>
Hi Chloe, when you had your "paradoxical reaction" to Ativan-what exactly happened? Did you get hypo on it? Just wondering because I might ask my pdoc at some point about switching from Klon to Ativan. I was just given a few tabs of Ativan as samples for panic related to flying. It worked really well, but I took my baggage to an obviously wrong place (to MOST people) at the airport and the baggage dudes all laughed at me-it WAS pretty funny.I think you are right about Klonopin "putting the brakes on a mixed-state episode". If I get like that usually 1.0mg/day (up from .5mg/day) for a couple of days will take care of it-just feel a little tired. You might just ask your pdoc for a trial script of clonazepam (and try to get the dose equivalence to your valium right) and swap it out for a while and see how it goes-if it gets worse-switch back. Let us know what happens---take care--- Mitch
Posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:05:19
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Chloe, posted by Ritch on June 15, 2003, at 9:39:23
> Hi Chloe, when you had your "paradoxical reaction" to Ativan-what exactly happened? Did you get hypo on it? Just wondering because I might ask my pdoc at some point about switching from Klon to Ativan. I was just given a few tabs of Ativan as samples for panic related to flying. It worked really well, but I took my baggage to an obviously wrong place (to MOST people) at the airport and the baggage dudes all laughed at me-it WAS pretty funny.
Hi Mitch,
That airport story is funny! Maybe your next trial could be in a less stressful environment.
My Ativan trial (I looked it up) was in 1990. I wrote that I had severe anxiety and activation. I couldn't be still, pacing, etc. It does have a shorter half life than klonopin. So you might notice when it's wearing off if you don't take it regularly.
> I think you are right about Klonopin "putting the brakes on a mixed-state episode". If I get like that usually 1.0mg/day (up from .5mg/day) for a couple of days will take care of it-just feel a little tired. You might just ask your pdoc for a trial script of clonazepam (and try to get the dose equivalence to your valium right) and swap it out for a while and see how it goes-if it gets worse-switch back. Let us know what happens---take care--- MitchThanks-I have an appointment this thursday. So we will see how it goes. I am impressed though, that upping my Valium by 5mgs/day has had little effect on anxiety and mixed states. I am not sedated at all, like I have feared if I am at work, and I still feel so keyed up, like my heart is racing a bit. I wonder if that is related to the thyroid stuff that I can't seem to get an endo appt for! Hopefully thursday I can get a slip to get labs drawn too.
Chloe
Posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:17:54
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin -- mixed states » Chloe, posted by Viridis on June 15, 2003, at 0:37:23
> Hi again Chloe,
>
> I'm very prone to mixed states -- intense depression coupled with severe, obsessive anxiety. The anxiety usually comes first, then the depression spiral. During these times, I am almost completely unable to eat or sleep. I used to experience this several times a year (since I was a child, so we're talking 30+ years). Others in my family have similar problems.
>
> Although things aren't perfect, I haven't had a major episode of this kind since starting Klonopin. My pdoc says it has some mood-stabilizing effects, and is impressed with how much it's helped me at what he considers a very low dose. He'd like me to stay with it indefinitely, and considers it very safe when used responsibly.
>
> I find that K is a great antidepressant for anxiety-induced depression/agitation. Xanax is also a mood elevator for me, but more than about 0.5 mg makes me very sleepy, so its dosage is self-limiting in my case, and I use it only as an occasional adjunct.
>
> BTW, fish oil also seems to help; I take about 6-8 g/day, for about 1.2 g EPA (which appears to be the most important component). It's a healthy thing to do anyway, for many reasons (e.g., cardiovascular benefits etc.), so you might consider adding this. I do not find it substitutes for the meds, but does seem to provide a bit of additional stability.Thanks this is very useful. I am so glad to see a benzo used when an AP might be prescribed. K is much safer and much less side effects.
Wow, that is alot of fish oil. I did take 1 or 2 capsules for a while, but couldn't stand the "fish burps"! Yack! I do take a tbs of flaxseed oil day, however, I know that has alot of the omega 3-6-9, but I am unsure if it has any EPA. Flaxseed oil is quite palatable, and heart healthy too. Not sure if it helps mood. I hope so, I love it!
Take care,
Chloe
Posted by Viridis on June 16, 2003, at 2:01:28
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin -- mixed states » Viridis, posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:17:54
Hi Chloe,
Another oil that I really like is hemp oil. It has a nice, nutty taste, and is the closest to fish oil you can get from a vegetable source. It's great in salad dressing (can't be heated, so no good for cooking). The best prices I've found are at www.iherb.com (but it is still kind of expensive).
Re: real meds; give Klonopin a try -- at least for a couple of weeks, because you will probably need to get used to it (then no side effects at all, for me at least). Avoid the APs if you can; my impression is that these carry risks that don't occur with benzos. Benzos are great, because despite all the nonsense you see, they're extremely safe,clean meds. It's just that they're off-patent, so too inxpensive to warrant promotion.
Posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 9:43:12
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by Chloe on June 15, 2003, at 22:05:19
> > Hi Chloe, when you had your "paradoxical reaction" to Ativan-what exactly happened? Did you get hypo on it? Just wondering because I might ask my pdoc at some point about switching from Klon to Ativan. I was just given a few tabs of Ativan as samples for panic related to flying. It worked really well, but I took my baggage to an obviously wrong place (to MOST people) at the airport and the baggage dudes all laughed at me-it WAS pretty funny.
>
> Hi Mitch,
> That airport story is funny! Maybe your next trial could be in a less stressful environment.
> My Ativan trial (I looked it up) was in 1990. I wrote that I had severe anxiety and activation. I couldn't be still, pacing, etc. It does have a shorter half life than klonopin. So you might notice when it's wearing off if you don't take it regularly.
>
> > I think you are right about Klonopin "putting the brakes on a mixed-state episode". If I get like that usually 1.0mg/day (up from .5mg/day) for a couple of days will take care of it-just feel a little tired. You might just ask your pdoc for a trial script of clonazepam (and try to get the dose equivalence to your valium right) and swap it out for a while and see how it goes-if it gets worse-switch back. Let us know what happens---take care--- Mitch
>
> Thanks-I have an appointment this thursday. So we will see how it goes. I am impressed though, that upping my Valium by 5mgs/day has had little effect on anxiety and mixed states. I am not sedated at all, like I have feared if I am at work, and I still feel so keyed up, like my heart is racing a bit. I wonder if that is related to the thyroid stuff that I can't seem to get an endo appt for! Hopefully thursday I can get a slip to get labs drawn too.
> Chloe
>
>Chloe, the short half-life (12 hrs?) of Ativan (lorazepam) might be a problem for sure. The only other benzos I've taken chronically previously were chlordiazepoxide (Librium) and Valium and they both last much longer. OTOH, if I just take it at bedtime for sleep, and don't find the rebound anxiety (or rebound hypomania) annoying during the day that would suit me find. Too bad you had that paradoxical reaction-interesting that you didn't have that trouble with *others*. I am wondering about your thyroid situation as well. You may need to get an endocrinologist involved with your pdoc to straighten those out. Let us know how your appt. goes with the pdoc about the Klonopin----good luck---Mitch
Posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 11:21:41
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin -- mixed states, posted by Viridis on June 16, 2003, at 2:01:28
>
> Another oil that I really like is hemp oil. It has a nice, nutty taste, and is the closest to fish oil you can get from a vegetable source. It's great in salad dressing (can't be heated, so no good for cooking). The best prices I've found are at www.iherb.com (but it is still kind of expensive).Hi,
Hemp oil sounds alot like faxseed oil, nutty flavor and you can't heat it. I am assuming it has EPA where FS Oil doesnt? I will look into it. I use Barlean's Flax seed oil. It's unbelievable expensive so I buy 32oz size and store unused in the freezer. I will give you the link if you are interested, though I don't think they sell hemp oil... :http://www.barleans.com/products/oils.html
>
> Re: real meds; give Klonopin a try -- at least for a couple of weeks, because you will probably need to get used to it (then no side effects at all, for me at least). Avoid the APs if you can; my impression is that these carry risks that don't occur with benzos. Benzos are great, because despite all the nonsense you see, they're extremely safe,clean meds. It's just that they're off-patent, so too inxpensive to warrant promotion.Your last sentence is interesting...
Yes, I try to avoid AP's at all costs. I take them only when necessary, about once a week when the suicadal thoughts get out of control or my thinking is so skewed, I can't understand people. I can get very paranoid. But I also have permanent tongue movements and bruxism from use of APs over the years. SOO, I am hoping a "better" benzo might keep me from going up or down so much that I end up in a scary mixed state. I bet my pdoc goes for it and I can give K a try...I'll know on thursday.
Thanks alot,
Chloe>
Posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 11:36:04
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Chloe, posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 9:43:12
> Chloe, the short half-life (12 hrs?) of Ativan (lorazepam) might be a problem for sure. The only other benzos I've taken chronically previously were chlordiazepoxide (Librium) and Valium and they both last much longer. OTOH, if I just take it at bedtime for sleep, and don't find the rebound anxiety (or rebound hypomania) annoying during the day that would suit me find. Too bad you had that paradoxical reaction-interesting that you didn't have that trouble with *others*. I am wondering about your thyroid situation as well. You may need to get an endocrinologist involved with your pdoc to straighten those out. Let us know how your appt. goes with the pdoc about the Klonopin----good luck---Mitch
Hi Mitch,
I think Lorazapam has a half life of about 8-24 hours, depending on how you metabolize it. It also peaks in 3-4 hours. So, like you said, perhaps taking it at night, you could avoid any rebound or crash. I believe, for the "average" user!, it is far less sedating and depressive than librium, valium or klonopin.Do you see you med person soon? I know you are thinking about also adding some lamictal (eventually) to the mix too...
Chloe
Posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 13:16:57
In reply to Re: valium vs klonopin? » Ritch, posted by chloe on June 16, 2003, at 11:36:04
> > Chloe, the short half-life (12 hrs?) of Ativan (lorazepam) might be a problem for sure. The only other benzos I've taken chronically previously were chlordiazepoxide (Librium) and Valium and they both last much longer. OTOH, if I just take it at bedtime for sleep, and don't find the rebound anxiety (or rebound hypomania) annoying during the day that would suit me find. Too bad you had that paradoxical reaction-interesting that you didn't have that trouble with *others*. I am wondering about your thyroid situation as well. You may need to get an endocrinologist involved with your pdoc to straighten those out. Let us know how your appt. goes with the pdoc about the Klonopin----good luck---Mitch
>
> Hi Mitch,
> I think Lorazapam has a half life of about 8-24 hours, depending on how you metabolize it. It also peaks in 3-4 hours. So, like you said, perhaps taking it at night, you could avoid any rebound or crash. I believe, for the "average" user!, it is far less sedating and depressive than librium, valium or klonopin.
>
> Do you see you med person soon? I know you are thinking about also adding some lamictal (eventually) to the mix too...
> Chloe
Chloe, I'm holding with Depakote 250mg ER + Klonopin .5mg HS, and a microdose of Effexor in the AM, and added 3.75mg buspirone last visit as an experiment for GAD sx and to boost the Effexor (without needing to increase it). It made my early morning awakening WORSE when I took it at bedtime. Switched to taking it only first thing in the AM. That has helped some. I will give it a full two-three weeks and if there isn't a clear trend towards improving sleep (startup effects?), it is going to get ditched. Then perhaps we'll talk about the possible lorazepam switch. I have a feeling that using low-dose lorazepam as a sleeper will work better than the clon. and I will have more energy the next day. Lamictal? I don't want to tinker with that idea until this upcoming spell is fully over with (when I'm stable in the fall). I'm already gaining weight and having carb craving, YUCK!
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