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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 13:28:26
In reply to WHOA on the lithium orotate - be careful!!, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 11:55:42
What I told Janelle was that if she is unable to increase her dose of lithium because of side effects lithium orotate might be worth a try. She is still cycling between hypomania and depression. I would never suggest to anyone who is stable on any med to discontinue that med. Janelle is bringing the info I have about lithium orotate to her pdoc who will make the decision.
If he decides to not to go with it,to add it to the lithium she's on, or to replace it-that will be his decision.Paul
Posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 14:29:10
In reply to Re: LITHIUM OROTATE » Paulie, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 13:22:49
>
> >
>>
> Thanks. Now, finding the full-text to reference 24, I see claims about lithium action that are unsubstantiated, and promotional arguments by a guy who sells the stuff. Hmmm....
>
> Note the similarity in hyperlink structure.....Hmmm.....same company.....
>
> http://www.vrp.com/art/269.asp?c=1054576876708&g=Ward%20Dean&k=/srch/warddean.asp&m=/vstyle.css
>
> My BS meter is in the red zone.
>
> LarYes, Dr.Ward Dean is director of research for Vitamin Research Products. Assuming his claims are false on the bio-availibity issue there is a reference to the "Clinical Application of Lithium Orotate" published in 1973 by Dr. HA Nieper.
Superiority of Lithium Orotate
The lithium salt of orotic acid (lithium orotate) improves the specific effects of lithium many-fold by increasing lithium bio-utilization. The orotates transport the lithium to the membranes of mitochondria, lysosomes and the glia cells. Lithium orotate stabilizes the lysosomal membranes and prevents the enzyme reactions that are responsible for the sodium depletion and dehydration effects of other lithium salts. Because of the superior bioavailability of lithium orotate, the therapeutic dosage is much less than prescription forms of lithium. For example, in cases of severe depression, the therapeutic dosage of lithium orotate is 150 mg/day. This is compared to 900-1800 mg of the prescription forms. In this dosage range of lithium orotate, there are no adverse lithium side reactions and no need for monitoring blood serum measurements.17
http://www.vrp.com/art/269.asp?c=1054576876708&g=Ward%20Dean&k=/srch/warddean.asp&m=/vstyle.css
Paul
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 14:52:34
In reply to Re: LITHIUM OROTATE » Larry Hoover, posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 14:29:10
> Yes, Dr.Ward Dean is director of research for Vitamin Research Products. Assuming his claims are false on the bio-availibity issue there is a reference to the "Clinical Application of Lithium Orotate" published in 1973 by Dr. HA Nieper.I can't access that paper, so I can't assess it.
I spent years of my life, under contract, looking at other peoples' published work, assessing their methodology, the evidence gathered, the statistical methods employed, the conclusions arising from the data, the relationship of the work in question with the body of evidence already in existence. A single contract might have me analyzing stacks of papers over a meter in height. My reports were 100's of pages long, and the reference lists were often longer than the report itself. I have some experience in this realm.
Just so we're clear, I am looking for independent corroborative evidence.
Without it, referring to papers written by other members of the same private enterprise as supportive evidence is questionable, at best.
If there are only a handful of papers in existence on a subject, and those are 20 or 25 years old, I'm quite skeptical of somebody making current claims about that information. Moreover, in a subject realm as well-studied as lithium prophylaxis of bipolar disorder, the dearth of evidence for the efficacy of lithium orotate is itself damning.
Feel free to form your own conclusions. You have my opinion.
Lar
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 15:20:42
In reply to Re: WHOA on the lithium orotate - be careful!! » Barbara Cat, posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 13:28:29
Paul,
Have you personally experienced benefit from lithium orotate? If so, could you give us your subjective experience on how it fares with other lithiums? If you haven't had personal experience, do you know of anyone else who has tried it? Is it perhaps the web material only that you're citing? The research papers sound intriguing, and that's how I was temporarily convinced (snookered is more like it) but I have to agree with Larry's biochemical reasoning and with my own experience. It would be helpful to get some first-hand experience besides my own trial which bordered on dangerous.I think that titrating up on Li Orotate while titrating down on Li carbonate is much safer trial than how I did it. Lithium orotate even at double the dose couldn't prevent or pull me out of a manic depressive state. It really was quite ineffective and the fact that the Serenity folks are making these claims bothers me alot. - BarbaraCat
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 19:16:49
In reply to Re: LITHIUM OROTATE » Larry Hoover, posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 14:29:10
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 19:52:49
In reply to Anyone else have THIS KIND of depression ???, posted by Janelle on May 30, 2003, at 19:58:35
Hi Janelle, it's your buddy BarbaraCat. Some questions based on my experience of this kind of depression.
Are you able to sleep OK when you have this kind of depression?
When you're laid out, what's going on in your mind? Do you blame yourself for being lazy, for instance?
Are there any body pains, like muscle or joint pains or stomach pain?
Do you feel sick all over?
How is your elimination?
Is your tongue coated during these times? If so, how would you describe it? (very important question, BTW)
If you force yourself to get up does your energy eventually get better, or are you still pooped out?
If you do force yourself to get up, what are the compelling reasons to do so?
What time of day is best/worst?
Is there anything that relieves it even a little?I've had this kind of depression and it's different from my other kind of depressions which are agitated and anxious. I recall your posting about these kind of symptoms a year ago. I'm wondering if there isn't a physical problem going on in conjunction with your depression. That's my situation, and I recognize some of your symptoms and frustrations. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but if you have something biophysical going on it's going to ambush your attempts at relieving your depression. My thoughts are with you, girlfriend. - BarbaraCat
> Where you LITERALLY stay in bed all day, day after day only getting up to go to the bathroom and maybe eat or probably more likely drink something?
>
> I feel so ALONE in this; but depression manifests itself this way with me - I stay in my bed on and on and on.
Posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 20:42:50
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » McPac, posted by Ron Hill on June 1, 2003, at 17:20:46
Thanks Ron!
I was wondering---would you get VERY irritable with anger outbursts without the lithium? Thanks!
I'd become slightly or moderately hypomanic within the first couple of days. For example, my thoughts would go in several directions in a rapid fire fashion (like quickly changing channels on the TV) and, as a result, I'd finish little or nothing. Or, alternatively, I might hyper-focus on a low priority task while ignoring the urgent ones. Further, I act kind of childish and giddy when I'm hypomanic and I tend to be impulsive and socially inappropriate.Each morning when I wake up I am ever so slightly hypomanic until I take my morning dose of Lithobid. I love the creative ideas I get when I'm hypomanic, but my productivity is low.
If I continued to go for a long period of time without a moodstabilizer (i.e.; lithium), I suspect I would begin to cycle between hypomanic, normal, and depressed mood states.
-- Ron
Posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 21:02:52
In reply to Re: Sorry about the indignation (nm) » Paulie, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 19:16:49
Larry,
I guess lithium orotate won't work after all unless the intake of lithium is what it would be on lithium carbonate. I am usually very skeptical about new products but after reading some info on it, it looked like there may be something to it. Unfortunetly, you have to high blood concentrations, like you said, or it ain't gonna work. Geez, looks like I was wrong. My mistake. Thanks for your input.Paul
Posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 21:14:18
In reply to Re: Anyone else have THIS KIND of depression ??? » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 19:52:49
Does lithium keep "Anger/Terrible temper" problems at bay for you? IF you were to go off of it, would terrible anger/temper/irritability come back big-time? Thanks!
Posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 21:17:45
In reply to Re: Anyone else have THIS KIND of depression ??? » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 19:52:49
I went through the exact type of depressed state that you described only a few months ago......the thing that worked for me was that I increased my lithium......for others, perhaps an anti-dep. would work best...but for me, at least this past time anyway, lithium worked very well...fwiw...take care!
Posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 21:19:40
In reply to Re: Anyone else have THIS KIND of depression ??? » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 19:52:49
"Is your tongue coated during these times? If so, how would you describe it? (very important question, BTW)"
>>>>>>>Are you thinking about the possibility of Candida Albicans Barb?
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 22:29:35
In reply to Barb, Re: Anyone else have THIS KIND of depression, posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 21:14:18
Oh yes. When I get sloppy and forget to take it regularly I become a harpy. Ultra critical, sensitive, and feel very taken advantage of (this is a major issue I'm working on in this lifetime, BTW). You should talk to my husband, poor guy. Then when I get back to my regular dosing things become nice and mellow again. I do not have the flattening of effect like others describe. I guess I'm so volatile naturally that lithium puts me in the normal range. I find also that 2 tablespoons of fish oil is a big factor in the brew. It seems to keep the cell membranes pliable and helps the other meds work more efficiently.
> Does lithium keep "Anger/Terrible temper" problems at bay for you? IF you were to go off of it, would terrible anger/temper/irritability come back big-time? Thanks!
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 22:34:09
In reply to BarbCat, Re: Anyone else have THIS KIND of , posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 21:19:40
That is one possibility. I've got some background in Chinese medicine and there are many illnesses that are diagnosed by the condition of the tongue - coating, shape, size, etc. What I'm looking for is overall toxicity symptoms rather than a specific diagnosis which can be just another symptom of imbalance.
> "Is your tongue coated during these times? If so, how would you describe it? (very important question, BTW)"
>
> >>>>>>>Are you thinking about the possibility of Candida Albicans Barb?
>
Posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 23:44:53
In reply to Re: Sorry about the indignation (nm) » Paulie, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 19:16:49
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2003, at 8:27:01
In reply to No reason for you to be indignant. (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 23:44:53
Paul, I was arrogant and indignant, and I regret having let my temper get the better of me. I'm not better or more authoritative than anybody else, just because I have an academic background. You may not have "seen" what I'm talking about, but I felt it.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 2:45:35
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer?, posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 20:42:50
Hi McPac,
> I was wondering---would you get VERY irritable with anger outbursts without the lithium? Thanks!
I doubt it, but I can't say for sure. However, allow me to tell you what is currently doing an absolutely terrific job treating my dysphoric mood states (irritability to the tenth power, GRRRRRRR!!). 125 mg twice per day of niacin works great! Larry Hoover et al say that niacinamide is even better still, so I plan to do a trial of niacinamide. But I'll tell ya, McPac I am totally amazed at how much difference a B vitamin (B3) can make.
Are you struggling with irritability? If so try 250 - 500 mg/day of niacinamide (or niacin?). Some people take as much as 2000 mg/day, but at the higher doses I would definitely go with the niacinamide as opposed to the niacin since the latter can cause liver problems in the very high dose ranges.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 2:53:44
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 8:51:48
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 2:57:08
In reply to WHOA on the lithium orotate - be careful!!, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 11:55:42
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 3:00:29
In reply to That's OK- read your post to Ron- I'm a believer » Larry Hoover, posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 21:02:52
Posted by Paulie on June 4, 2003, at 9:09:33
In reply to Re: WHOA on the lithium orotate - be careful!! » Paulie, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 15:20:42
Posted by Janelle on June 4, 2003, at 15:54:25
In reply to Re: Anyone else have THIS KIND of depression ??? » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 19:52:49
Hi BarbaraCat - I have been unable to get to an online computer so I had to go back to the previous time period here on PB and found your questions under my post about Depression/Lithium Orotate:
1. Are you able to sleep OK when you have this kind of depression? YES! But only because one of my night-time meds sedates me enough to put me out!
2, When you're laid out, what's going on in your mind? Do you blame yourself for being lazy, for instance? No, I don't blame myself for anything. I either have racing thoughts about all the things I need/want to do but can't which in turn make me anxious or believe it or not, I just zombie out and don't think about anything!
3. Are there any body pains, like muscle or joint pains or stomach pain? NO, knock on wood.
4. Do you feel sick all over? NO, again knock on wood!
5. How is your elimination? Regular, thank you!
6. Is your tongue coated during these times? NO, knock on wood. So, the follo-up question (If so, how would you describe it? (very important question, BTW) doesn't apply!
7. If you force yourself to get up does your energy eventually get better, or are you still pooped out? I cannot even FORCE myself to get up, other than to go to the bathroom and maybe drink something.
8. If you do force yourself to get up, what are the compelling reasons to do so? Just to use the bathroom and get something to drink.
9. What time of day is best/worst? Morning is WORST; evening is BEST. (which I hear is common pattern for depression?)
10. Is there anything that relieves it even a little? NO.
I'm flattered that you remember me posting about similar problems last YEAR! Thanks. So, what PHYSICAL thing(s) do you think might be going on with me?
Thanks,
your friend,
Janelle
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 0:53:47
In reply to BarbCAT: answers 2 your questions: » Barbara Cat, posted by Janelle on June 4, 2003, at 15:54:25
Hi Janelle,
I was wondering about something like possible fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue or some other possible viral based metabolic condition, but from your answers it doesn't sound like a physical condition is the culprit. The only other thing that came to mind was low thyroid, but I recall that you had some tests done and it came back in the normal range. If you did have a low thyroid you'd feel no energy totally bagged feeling all the time, along with cold hands and feet and constipation. Also, to be laid out flat like you are due to a thyroid condition, your blood levels would probably show it. Sometimes you can have a low thyroid even if the tests don't pick it up, but not with the extreme symptoms that come and go as you describe.There's probably some physical component involved cause everything is interrelated, but it sounds like atypical depression to a T. One other thing came to mind just now. If you go through periodic times of extreme stress, or you did go through extreme - I'm talking major stress - previously, it can clobber your adrenal system and once that happens its hard to restore things. But your symptoms really sound like atypical depression without any other physical crap to deal with, which is a blessing.
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:26:56
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » McPac, posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 2:45:35
Hi Ron,
Are you also taking B complex? You probably know this cause you seem well versed in nutrition but all the same, just taking B3 could cause an imbalance. You know, B3 is used in the synthesis of dopamine as in tyrosine -> phenylalanine -> dopamine with thyroid precursor thrown in along the way, so maybe niacin is helping you to metabolize dopamine for a lift? I'm going to increase my niacinamide cause I could use some thyroid and dopamine beefing up.There's also something I recall about B6 being real important for serotonin synthesis, but interfers with some other synthesis, you're not supposed to take it at the same time as something else, but I don't remember. Anyway, gotta balance those B vitamins. - BCat
> I doubt it, but I can't say for sure. However, allow me to tell you what is currently doing an absolutely terrific job treating my dysphoric mood states (irritability to the tenth power, GRRRRRRR!!). 125 mg twice per day of niacin works great! Larry Hoover et al say that niacinamide is even better still, so I plan to do a trial of niacinamide. But I'll tell ya, McPac I am totally amazed at how much difference a B vitamin (B3) can make.
>
> Are you struggling with irritability? If so try 250 - 500 mg/day of niacinamide (or niacin?). Some people take as much as 2000 mg/day, but at the higher doses I would definitely go with the niacinamide as opposed to the niacin since the latter can cause liver problems in the very high dose ranges.
>
> -- Ron
>
Posted by Ron Hill on June 5, 2003, at 11:17:55
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:26:56
Hey Barbara,
> Are you also taking B complex? You probably know this cause you seem well versed in nutrition but all the same, just taking B3 could cause an imbalance.
Yeah, I’m aware of what you’re talking about and I take a B-100 complex daily.
> You know, B3 is used in the synthesis of dopamine as in tyrosine -> phenylalanine -> dopamine with thyroid precursor thrown in along the way, so maybe niacin is helping you to metabolize dopamine for a lift?
I was unaware of this role that B3 plays in the production of dopamine. However, I'm convinced that B3 is doing an incredible job treating my irritability by improving serotonin production (as opposed to dopamine). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), if the body does not absorb adequate amounts of B3 from the diet, the body will manufacture in own supply of B3. However, it is a costly manufacturing process in that it uses up 60 tryptophan molecules for every one B3 molecule produced. Therefore, by supplying my body with plenty of B3, a large reservoir of tryptophan can now be used for the production of additional serotonin. I believe that it is this increased production of serotonin that is erasing the irritability (flash rage, sever impatience, etc).
I love the increased motivation, drive, and focus that comes with improved dopamine pathway functioning. For example, Enada NADH increases the production of dopamine and I love it. However, if my dopamine levels get out ahead of my serotonin levels, I get irritable (GRRRRRRRRR!). This is my naive and immature pharmacological explanation which may or may not have any semblance of fact. But what I do know is when I raise serotonin levels (using SSRIs, 5-HTP, etc) the irritability subsides. And now B3 is doing this for me without the adverse side effects of the SSRIs.
-- Ron
Posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:40:36
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:26:56
Any bipolars here ever went off their mood stabilizers? If so, did ANGER, TEMPER, IRRITABILITY and AGITATION problems return?
Do most bipolars have terrible anger/temper/irrit. problems as part of their illness?
I'm trying to determine whether my anger/temper problems are due to a possible bipolar condition OR if it's caused by taking ssri's! Thanks!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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