![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by johnj on May 28, 2003, at 11:02:20
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 9:47:42
Larry,
I have a few questions I would like to ask and hopefully tap you knowledge bank.
I may be wrong, and please correct me, but I detect a slightly negative attitude towards medication from you. I would like nothing else to go supplement solo but do not think it is possible right now. What I do feel is that if I could have had advance knowledge of my panic attack and subsequent depression I believe, granted this would have been 6 months prior knowledge, I would have stood a great chance of preventing it with stress reduction, excercise, and supplements.
I do feel that my way of thinking aided the panic attack and depression. Given this includes my genetics, environment at the time, and my diet problems. The most frustrating part of my illness has been with supplements that have helped at first and then pooped out or whatever. This includes magnesium and fish oil.
What have you decided to do since magnesium stared making you feel groggy? For me, if I replendished Mg I should have seen a continued benefit not insomnia, at least when I stopped the Mg. It is hard to know what the cause or how to use the supplement. For example, does one use Mg for one week a month?(I don't expect you to answer this). Same with fish oil it aided my sleep, but then had some sleep problems on it. I have found I am not the only one this has happened to either. Very furstrating.
Remeron has helped, but I still have not so good days which are directly related to not so good nights. But, to be honest I feel weak that 1. I can't get remission even with drugs, and 2. supplements are not even giving me much relief. Sometimes I think I need to be off all meds and start all over. But, do meds do us damage that is not reversible?(like possible receptor damage with ssri's). I think you alluded to this in regards to benzo's.
Do you have an opinion on why poop out happens and possible remedies? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you appear to know more than my doctors who want to give me med after med. Do you believe the possible dopamine depletion thinking that is out there?
Any opinions or data you have seen in relation to what I have written would be appreciated. Thanks Larry.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 11:48:47
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on May 28, 2003, at 11:02:20
> Larry,
>
> I have a few questions I would like to ask and hopefully tap you knowledge bank.
>
> I may be wrong, and please correct me, but I detect a slightly negative attitude towards medication from you.I don't tolerate meds well. I am Mr. side-effect. For me, they are often like trying to swat a gnat with a sledge-hammer. Meds saved my life. They may well do so again. But past that, I find I can't live with them.
I have a systemic negativity towards medicine as practised in Western society. "Treat 'em and street 'em" means drugs. Go to a doctor. Get a drug. I don't think that's the best way to do things.
When I'm not critically ill, I'm looking for better ways than drugs.
>I would like nothing else to go supplement solo but do not think it is possible right now. What I do feel is that if I could have had advance knowledge of my panic attack and subsequent depression I believe, granted this would have been 6 months prior knowledge, I would have stood a great chance of preventing it with stress reduction, excercise, and supplements.
Extending that thought....do you think it is presently possible to prevent future episodes by using supplements, stress reduction, and exercise as a prophylactic strategy?
What is necessary for that to work is a change in assumptions. Knowing you have options is of benefit, even if those options are not implemented.
> I do feel that my way of thinking aided the panic attack and depression. Given this includes my genetics, environment at the time, and my diet problems. The most frustrating part of my illness has been with supplements that have helped at first and then pooped out or whatever. This includes magnesium and fish oil.
Poop out in that context could be you just got used to it. It's taken me years to fine-tune my personal support system. I'm still tweaking it, every day. I forget to take things. I get bored or busy. But I find myself returning to some supplements over and over again.
Cognitive schemas, the patterns I project onto my world, are also something I've worked very hard at adapting to my reality. Cognitive dissonance, a lack of total congruence between a schema and the real world, can be a major source of distress. And, you may not even be able to figure out what's wrong, even though you know something is. I have no idea just how my supplements interact with my cognition, but I'm feeling better after adjusting both.
> What have you decided to do since magnesium stared making you feel groggy?I just don't take it every day.
>For me, if I replendished Mg I should have seen a continued benefit not insomnia, at least when I stopped the Mg.
The experimental method can be a problem in and of itself. You want to try and manipulate one variable at a time, so you can start to get a sense of cause and effect (I know correlation is not causation, but I think our brains are hard-wired to believe that it is). But it may be that, for example, magnesium works a certain way *if, and only if* it's combined with one or more other substances. You'll never know that if you just manipulate magnesium.
>It is hard to know what the cause or how to use the supplement. For example, does one use Mg for one week a month?(I don't expect you to answer this).
Maybe that works for *you*. Your experience is more important than the rationale you use to guide your experience.
>Same with fish oil it aided my sleep, but then had some sleep problems on it. I have found I am not the only one this has happened to either.
I'm wondering about antioxidant status, in conjunction with the fish oil. Poly-unsaturated fatty acids are the raw materials for a vast array of signalling compounds, like prostaglandins, leukotrienes and other cytokines, and so on. Many of those are formed by oxidation. And, maybe if you've been deficient for a period of time, your body has ramped up a variety of enzyme concentrations to make do while deficient. If you suddenly increase the raw materials for those enzymes, product concentration skyrockets before feed-back inhibition can shut the enzymes down.
One trial of a nutrient may not be conclusive.
> Very furstrating.
Yup. Frustrating, even. <grin>
> Remeron has helped, but I still have not so good days which are directly related to not so good nights. But, to be honest I feel weak that 1. I can't get remission even with drugs, and 2. supplements are not even giving me much relief.There's one of those schemas! Look at how your thinking has affected how you feel.
>Sometimes I think I need to be off all meds and start all over. But, do meds do us damage that is not reversible?(like possible receptor damage with ssri's). I think you alluded to this in regards to benzo's.
I wasn't meaning that benzos damage you. They don't fix what's really wrong, and the progression of the disease may continue, even with medication.
If you find substances that potentiate your meds, then maybe you can decrease your med dose. As you gain a new equilibrium, perhaps you find that certain side effects have also diminished, increasing a sense of wellness. That may allow you to employ other potentiating strategies more effectively (e.g. exercise). Depending on drugs as the "fix" is narrow-minded.
> Do you have an opinion on why poop out happens and possible remedies? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you appear to know more than my doctors who want to give me med after med. Do you believe the possible dopamine depletion thinking that is out there?
It's entirely possible that poop-out occurs because of unique stresses placed on the biochemistry, which may create wholly new problems over time. That's one *theory*. It's a schema.
Another theory is that your body has innate set-points that it will tend towards, and given enough time, up-regulation and down-regulation and all that will get you back to the set-point (which may be, unfortunately, depressed). That's another schema.
Now, note how these schemas can affect decisions. Which is open-ended (comparatively), and more conducive to hope?
> Any opinions or data you have seen in relation to what I have written would be appreciated. Thanks Larry.
>
> johnjI'm glad to tell you about my schemas. I'm unique. My body's unique. My brain's unique. And so, my schemas must be unique. My thoughts aren't proof of anything. Your experience is.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 15:04:24
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover, posted by JackT on May 27, 2003, at 7:21:01
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for your informative post.
>
> I've been shopping at pharmacies, grocery stores, and Target, but haven't tried Walmart. At the particular stores I visited, I could find MgO abundantly and found MgCl only at Target.
>
> I've give Wal-mart a try.Jack, if you are still not finding what you want, the mail-order firm I use is called Hilife Vitamins and Herbs, at:
http://www.hilife-vitamins.com/index.html
Solgar at 40% off, Nature's Way at 50% off.
Use the Search function, or just browse by manufacturer.Lar
Posted by johnj on May 28, 2003, at 17:36:55
In reply to Re: questions » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 11:48:47
Lar,
As always you kindly answer my questions.
<I don't tolerate meds well. I am Mr. side-effect. For me, they are often like trying to swat a gnat with a sledge-hammer. Meds saved my life. They may well do so again. But past that, I find I can't live with them.>
I don't tolerate them either. I am finding as I have aged side effects abound. They saved my life too, but have limited my recovery at times. I should have went off when I was recovered and looked at other ways to keep myself healthy.
<I have a systemic negativity towards medicine as practised in Western society. "Treat 'em and street 'em" means drugs. Go to a doctor. Get a drug. I don't think that's the best way to do things.>
I totally agree, I just wish I had a pdoc that was interested in all approaches.
<Extending that thought....do you think it is presently possible to prevent future episodes by using supplements, stress reduction, and exercise as a prophylactic strategy?>
Yes, and I just wish I knew what was happening when I work out and why I end up with insomnia no matter what I do. I have long thought it may be the TCA, but only way to tell is to go off it. Maybe if I stay on the remeron I can realize this challenge.
<What is necessary for that to work is a change in assumptions. Knowing you have options is of benefit, even if those options are not implemented. >
I had looked at the non-traditional medicine approach and even some therapy, but I find myself not seeking them out for fear they won't help. Sounds dumb, and I know it is not rational, but hard to get moving.
<Cognitive schemas, the patterns I project onto my world, are also something I've worked very hard at adapting to my reality. Cognitive dissonance, a lack of total congruence between a schema and the real world, can be a major source of distress. And, you may not even be able to figure out what's wrong, even though you know something is. I have no idea just how my supplements interact with my cognition, but I'm feeling better after adjusting both.>
So very true Larry, after getting a dose of reality due to the remeron I was shocked, and saddened at how my thinking can get so distorted. This is a big battle for me.
Just thought I would reply to a few things in your post. I like the way you think. You have given me plenty of nuggets to chew on and I apprecite it. Thanks for sharing. :)
johnj
Posted by McPac on May 28, 2003, at 20:00:15
In reply to Re: Mg? How you making out finding it? » JackT, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 15:04:24
Another poster said that fish oil interferes with magnesium's (and I think other minerals') absorption...what do you think? thanks!
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 22:25:37
In reply to Lar, Re: Mg? How you making out finding it?, posted by McPac on May 28, 2003, at 20:00:15
> Another poster said that fish oil interferes with magnesium's (and I think other minerals') absorption...what do you think? thanks!
I can't think of a reason for that happening.
Posted by Caleb462 on May 28, 2003, at 22:38:54
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on May 28, 2003, at 11:02:20
> Do you have an opinion on why poop out happens and possible remedies? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you appear to know more than my doctors who want to give me med after med. Do you believe the possible dopamine depletion thinking that is out there?
>I'll weigh in on the "dopamine depletion" issue. "Depletion" is definitely the WRONG word. This would imply that SSRIs cause the actual amount of dopamine in the brain to decrease, which they don't. What they do, however, is inhibit dopamine release.
This is because of a certain serotonin receptor, called 5-HT2c. 5-HT2c exists in the brain to control the flow of dopamine. 5-HT2c receptors are located on dopamine-containing neurons, and when these receptors are activated by serotonin, the neuron will be inhibited from releasing dopamine. When one takes SSRIs, a greater than normal activation of 5-HT2c receptors occurs, and thus a greater than normal inhibition of dopamine release. Problems such as sexual dysfunction, apathy, etc. stem from this.
Posted by johnj on May 29, 2003, at 8:26:19
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool!, posted by Caleb462 on May 28, 2003, at 22:38:54
Hi Larry
I wonder if TMG or Enada could be used for this? Any ideas? I don't take an ssri, but remeron does have a sexual side effect for me. But, I can live with that for the time being. I am just curious. Thanks
Johnj
Posted by colin wallace on May 29, 2003, at 9:18:46
In reply to Is their a solution to this? Larry H ?? » Caleb462, posted by johnj on May 29, 2003, at 8:26:19
> Hi Larry
>
> I wonder if TMG or Enada could be used for this? Any ideas? I don't take an ssri, but remeron does have a sexual side effect for me. But, I can live with that for the time being. I am just curious. Thanks
>
> JohnjJohnny Boy,
Sorry to hear about your floppiness :)
On a similar theme, I've just started taking5mg NADH on alternate days, to supplement the 20mg Prozac I also take on alternate days.(along with my 250mg Lamictal).
Feels good so far- oddly, it tended to stupefy me before I began Prozac, but now (months later) it feels a lot smoother and more subtle.My seratonin levels must have been pitiably low prior to Prozac, now things feel much more in synch.
I definitely believe NADH to be capable of fending off SSRI apathy (to some extent at least),although sorting out sexual side effects would be too good to be true....but who knows???Col.
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2003, at 9:29:03
In reply to Is their a solution to this? Larry H ?? » Caleb462, posted by johnj on May 29, 2003, at 8:26:19
> Hi Larry
>
> I wonder if TMG or Enada could be used for this? Any ideas? I don't take an ssri, but remeron does have a sexual side effect for me. But, I can live with that for the time being. I am just curious. Thanks
>
> JohnjI quit using Remeron for just that reason, John. Sorry, I don't know of a remedy.
Lar
Posted by johnj on May 29, 2003, at 11:04:38
In reply to Re: Is their a solution to this? Larry H ?? » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2003, at 9:29:03
I am wondering if the dysfunction would be better if I dropped the TCA? Just have to try and see I guess. However, at this point in time I might have to live with the dysfunction. Last time I went off remeron I had to bump my benzo up due to anxiety/sleeplessness.
I am told the sleeplessness is a symptom of depression/anxiety. I would hate to have to drop the remeron and bump up my benzo. Until now things were always set off by something environmental, but this the last year or so the only thing really bothering me is work stress. Confustion reigns right now. Too bad cymbalta is not out yet as I would like to give it a try.Larry what is your take on benzo's? I am on tranzene but I would like to see if maybe konopin is better for me. I am a little scared to try it. Have you ever tried buspar? Maybe I should wait for xanax XR. Do you have any opinions about benzo's contributing to depression?
The empowering you discussed makes me realize I need to find my way to help myself.
Thank you. take care
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2003, at 12:00:04
In reply to Re: Is their a solution to this? Larry H ?? » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on May 29, 2003, at 11:04:38
> Larry what is your take on benzo's?I use temazepam every night. I have major insomnia, but that's one of the core symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome.
>I am on tranzene but I would like to see if maybe konopin is better for me. I am a little scared to try it.
Clonazepam has mood stabilizing effects not found in other benzos. I'd have to look up the details. I've wanted to try it, but my p-doc just won't give it to me. Don't know why.
>Have you ever tried buspar?
Nope.
>Maybe I should wait for xanax XR. Do you have any opinions about benzo's contributing to depression?
Only in so far as I don't think they treat the underlying pathology, as I was saying yesterday. I don't think they're destructive. They're just the quintessential example of symptom management.
> The empowering you discussed makes me realize I need to find my way to help myself.
> Thank you. take care
> johnjSometimes you don't even realize the choices you've got, ya know? And just coming to the understanding that you do have choices is more than half the battle. When you get there, you're already "over the hump".
Some aphorisms that have helped me....
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why they call it the present."
"You can't think your way into a new way of acting, but you can act your way into a new way of thinking."
....which has a corrollary in, "If you keep on doing what you always did, you'll keep on getting what you always got."
....and another one in, "Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results, is a true measure of insanity."
....which underlie my belief that you have to "do the experiment".
I'm glad you like what I have to say. Thanks for letting me know that.
Lar
Posted by samplemethod on May 29, 2003, at 12:57:45
In reply to Re: Is their a solution to this? Larry H ?? » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2003, at 12:00:04
Even though I'm new, I value your contributions to this board a great deal.
Thanks Lar
>
> > Larry what is your take on benzo's?
>
> I use temazepam every night. I have major insomnia, but that's one of the core symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome.
>
> >I am on tranzene but I would like to see if maybe konopin is better for me. I am a little scared to try it.
>
> Clonazepam has mood stabilizing effects not found in other benzos. I'd have to look up the details. I've wanted to try it, but my p-doc just won't give it to me. Don't know why.
>
> >Have you ever tried buspar?
>
> Nope.
>
> >Maybe I should wait for xanax XR. Do you have any opinions about benzo's contributing to depression?
>
> Only in so far as I don't think they treat the underlying pathology, as I was saying yesterday. I don't think they're destructive. They're just the quintessential example of symptom management.
>
> > The empowering you discussed makes me realize I need to find my way to help myself.
> > Thank you. take care
> > johnj
>
> Sometimes you don't even realize the choices you've got, ya know? And just coming to the understanding that you do have choices is more than half the battle. When you get there, you're already "over the hump".
>
> Some aphorisms that have helped me....
>
> "Yesterday is history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why they call it the present."
>
> "You can't think your way into a new way of acting, but you can act your way into a new way of thinking."
>
> ....which has a corrollary in, "If you keep on doing what you always did, you'll keep on getting what you always got."
>
> ....and another one in, "Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results, is a true measure of insanity."
>
> ....which underlie my belief that you have to "do the experiment".
>
> I'm glad you like what I have to say. Thanks for letting me know that.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by McPac on May 29, 2003, at 18:33:18
In reply to Re: Is their a solution to this? Larry H ?? » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2003, at 9:29:03
" I don't take an ssri, but remeron does have a sexual side effect for me."
>>>>>>> Remeron doesn't cause sexual side efects for most people, correct? I've read that sometimes it is actually prescribed to help improve SSRI-induced "floppiness", lol,......I'm taking it and so far it seems to help.....does that mean it has 'anti-droop' characteristics for me, lol.
Posted by Caleb462 on May 29, 2003, at 18:53:51
In reply to john/Larry, Re: Is their a solution to this? , posted by McPac on May 29, 2003, at 18:33:18
> " I don't take an ssri, but remeron does have a sexual side effect for me."
>
> >>>>>>> Remeron doesn't cause sexual side efects for most people, correct? I've read that sometimes it is actually prescribed to help improve SSRI-induced "floppiness", lol,......I'm taking it and so far it seems to help.....does that mean it has 'anti-droop' characteristics for me, lol.This is true, Remeron usually lacks sexual side effects, and for some folks (like my girlfriend) reverses SSRI-induced sexual side effects. So apparently, john, their is something else going on other than 5-HT2c activation. I would think NADH could help with this. And of course there are plenty of prescription meds that would likely help.... ritalin, mirapex, viagra, dexedrine, requip, etc.
Posted by mattdds on May 29, 2003, at 20:10:49
In reply to Re: Is their a solution to this? Larry H ?? » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2003, at 12:00:04
Larry,
All this (your post) sounds very CBT'ish. I am curious as to your take on CBT. Do you have any formal CBT-type therapy under your belt? Or do you use CBT self help techniques? Or not a "believer"? It often seems your posts have embedded CBT suggestions in them, haha. I enjoy reading them.
I myself am a big enthusiast of CBT, and think it is the most underutilized tool in psychiatry. It relieved about 80% of my generalized anxiety, 100% of my depression and 100% of anticipatory anxiety secondary to panic attack symptoms.
Klonopin helps with residual derealization that I can't seem to shake, and I am currently experiencing what I feel is a good response to Mg supplementation (seems to help with MVP-like symptoms that overlap a lot with panic, e.g. palpitations, random sympathetic discharge, insomnia. It also seems to "smooth" out my moods, like a mild mood stabilizer. I'm also pretty sure it augments my Klonopin. Recently, I've reduced my dose a bit, as my old dose is making me sedated! Time will tell. As for now, I'm getting more and more convinced.)
But I digress, my question was about CBT. What's your take?
Thanks,
Matt
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why they call it the present."
"You can't think your way into a new way of acting, but you can act your way into a new way of thinking."
....which has a corrollary in, "If you keep on doing what you always did, you'll keep on getting what you always got."
....and another one in, "Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results, is a true measure of insanity."
....which underlie my belief that you have to "do the experiment".
Posted by colin wallace on May 30, 2003, at 3:56:13
In reply to john/Larry, Re: Is their a solution to this? , posted by McPac on May 29, 2003, at 18:33:18
> " I don't take an ssri, but remeron does have a sexual side effect for me."
>
> >>>>>>> Remeron doesn't cause sexual side efects for most people, correct? I've read that sometimes it is actually prescribed to help improve SSRI-induced "floppiness", lol,......I'm taking it and so far it seems to help.....does that mean it has 'anti-droop' characteristics for me, lol.When I was taking Remeron, my gut grew so fat I couldn't even reach my pecker if I wanted to...
Posted by Ron Hill on May 30, 2003, at 10:55:09
In reply to Re: john/Larry, Re: Is their a solution to this? » McPac, posted by colin wallace on May 30, 2003, at 3:56:13
> When I was taking Remeron, my gut grew so fat I couldn't even reach my pecker if I wanted to...
Or did you just sit to pee when you were on Remeron? :-)
-- Ron
Posted by JackT on May 30, 2003, at 11:25:15
In reply to Re: Mg? How you making out finding it? » JackT, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 15:04:24
Lar,
I haven't had a chance to go to Wal-Mart yet. I'll try there first this week-end and then the on-line store you recommended.
I've got another question for you. What is your take on d-phenylalanine as a precursor to phenylethylamine? Do you suspect it would work as a mild anti-depressant?
I have been looking for something that would make me feel good again. Between the GAD, social phobia, and the benzos, I just don't enjoy life. I go through the motions everyday but I'm always mildly depressed (nothing clinical). I've been considering Nardil, mainly because of Ace, selegiline (although my current pdoc won't prescribe it) and mirapax (sp?). Do you have any guidance of drugs or supplements with a lasting dopamine boost or other mood-lifting mechanisms? I'm willing to try almost anything if it looks promising. Maybe this is an impossible question to answer and I probably have asked it before. Anyway, it doesn't hurt to keep probing.
Jack T.
Posted by colin wallace on May 30, 2003, at 11:52:25
In reply to Re: It must have been hard to use the urinal, huh? » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on May 30, 2003, at 10:55:09
Posted by Squiggles on May 30, 2003, at 11:56:30
In reply to I used incontinence pants (?!!!) (nm) » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on May 30, 2003, at 11:52:25
I wonder if this is considered uncivil?
Hmmm.
Squiggles
Posted by colin wallace on May 30, 2003, at 12:13:55
In reply to Re: I used incontinence pants (?!!!) » colin wallace, posted by Squiggles on May 30, 2003, at 11:56:30
> I wonder if this is considered uncivil?
>
> Hmmm.
>
> SquigglesSorry,
Maybe not uncivil, but granted, a little tasteless.Apologies, kisses, hugs and much grovelling..
Col*****
Posted by Ron Hill on May 30, 2003, at 14:03:53
In reply to Re: Mg? How you making out finding it? » Larry Hoover, posted by JackT on May 30, 2003, at 11:25:15
Hi Jack,
> Do you have any guidance of drugs or supplements with a lasting dopamine boost or other mood-lifting mechanisms?
May I jump in? Larry can tell you better than I, but have you looked into Enada NADH? It works well for me except it can cause irritability. I was able to solve the irritability problem by adding 250 mg/day of TMG and 250 mg/day of niacin.
When I first started taking Enada NADH 18 weeks ago, I took 10 mg/day of the sublingual product ENADAlert NADH during the acute treatment phase for my atypical bipolar depression. The results were immediately remarkable. However, within a week or so the 10 mg/day dose was too much and, therefore, I began titrating the dose in the downward direction. I currently take 2.5 mg twice a week of the enteric coated "down-the-hatch" Enada NADH tablets as a maintenance dose. If you want more detail, just ask.
Here are some of the links discussing Enada NADH:
http://www.healthwell.com/hnbreakthroughs/mar98/nadh.cfm?path=hw
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=8101444&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9247090&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9013405&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/substances_view/1,1525,10047,00.html#Cautions
http://www.nadh.com/site7/SYSact20.htm#Top
http://www.nadh.com/site7/RSdprs05.htm#Top
http://www.smart-drugs.com/article-JamesSouth-NADH.htm
http://www.nadh-priceinfo.org/
http://qualitycounts.com/fpnadh.html
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3118/T/Both/
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/powersearch2.cfm (Note: enter “NADH” as keyword)
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:51:04
In reply to Re: Mg? How you making out finding it? » Larry Hoover, posted by JackT on May 30, 2003, at 11:25:15
> Lar,
>
> I haven't had a chance to go to Wal-Mart yet. I'll try there first this week-end and then the on-line store you recommended.
>
> I've got another question for you. What is your take on d-phenylalanine as a precursor to phenylethylamine? Do you suspect it would work as a mild anti-depressant?What I like about it is it's something in your control. It's effect may be subtle, perhaps more noticeable. But you're using your body's machinery the way it was intended to be used, ya know?
L-phenylalanine can get streamed two way....towards PEA, or towards dopamine. D-phenylalanine can only go to PEA. Moreover, it suppresses diversion of L-PA from going towards PEA. So, I generally recommend DLPA, the racemic mixture of d-,l-phenylalanine. Can't hurt. Might help. Take on an empty stomach. Some time that day, make sure you get some B-complex, to make sure the old enzymes are all fired up.
> I have been looking for something that would make me feel good again. Between the GAD, social phobia, and the benzos, I just don't enjoy life. I go through the motions everyday but I'm always mildly depressed (nothing clinical). I've been considering Nardil, mainly because of Ace, selegiline (although my current pdoc won't prescribe it) and mirapax (sp?). Do you have any guidance of drugs or supplements with a lasting dopamine boost or other mood-lifting mechanisms? I'm willing to try almost anything if it looks promising. Maybe this is an impossible question to answer and I probably have asked it before. Anyway, it doesn't hurt to keep probing.
>
> Jack T.There are lots of ideas. Ron mentioned NADH. It directly contributes to dopamine activity. Niacinamide can be soothing (anxiolytic), and also contributes to NADH downstream. Magnesium should have a calming effect, but as many people have noted, there are substantial differences in dose-response. Moreover, magnesium can potentiate (make it seem like you took a higher dose of) your benzos. Be a little cautious. Selenium has been shown to increase measures of well-being even in "normal" people, but also in depressed ones. Fish oil has a general mellowing/resiliency effect for a lot of people. Vitamin C gives some people mental clarity, and we're just getting reports of the same thing from vitamin E. Alphalipoic acid is another antioxidant with psychotropic activity.
There are many things you can try, but just take it slow. You didn't get sick in one day, so it's best to patiently try things, see how they fit in (or not). Go off something, try it again later, to see if the effect is the same. We're talking lifestyle changes here.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 17:22:42
In reply to Larry, your take on CBT? » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on May 29, 2003, at 20:10:49
> Larry,
>
> All this (your post) sounds very CBT'ish. I am curious as to your take on CBT. Do you have any formal CBT-type therapy under your belt? Or do you use CBT self help techniques? Or not a "believer"? It often seems your posts have embedded CBT suggestions in them, haha. I enjoy reading them.I'm glad somebody does. I hate to sound like I'm preaching. Without any feedback, it's awfully hard to "read the audience".
Yes, my posts often contain CBT-based ideas. I can't believe that HMOs, for example, will pay for drug after drug, but not cover CBT to any great extent (if at all). I think attitude problems underly a large number of medication failures. A pill can't fix stinkin' thinkin'.
I am a true believer in CBT. I have a degree in psych, I take part in CBT therapy (as a patient), and I employ self-taught/borrowed "self-help" CBT almost every thought I have. Seriously.
> I myself am a big enthusiast of CBT, and think it is the most underutilized tool in psychiatry. It relieved about 80% of my generalized anxiety, 100% of my depression and 100% of anticipatory anxiety secondary to panic attack symptoms.
OK, I won't preach to you. This is for the rest of the audience. <wink>
What convinced me that cognition has a powerful effect on therapeutic response flows from my own experience. Some years ago now, although I had been released from hospital, I was still very very depressed. My days, my endless stream of days, went something like this. Sleep for 10-12 hours. Get up, walk down the hall, and lie on the couch all day. Maybe open a can and eat straight from the can. Maybe not. Maybe bathe. Maybe not. Go back to bed.
I called this period my "couch days". I spent so much time on the couch (really a futon on a frame), that I had actually created a "Larry-shaped dent" in the damn thing. There it was, that dent, tangible evidence of my inability to function. All I could think about was all the things that needed doing, that weren't getting done. I just couldn't manage to do anything.
Then one day, I had an epiphany. I have no idea where it came from, but it felt heaven-sent. I saw that I had been consuming myself with guilt and self-reproach. I went to the couch for rest, I had assumed, but I got no rest there. I tortured myself, instead.
The day of the epiphany, I saw that Larry-shaped dent in a new way. It was the couch preparing to cradle me. And as I let myself down into that space, I let it hold me. And I emptied my mind of my worries, and let myself rest. And again, the same thing, the next day. I never had another couch day again.
I draw on all kinds of sources. Buddhism has been really helpful. I had a hard time grasping the idea that spiritual growth required adversity, at first. But then I began to see why. If life isn't a struggle, you have no reason to change, to grow.
Here's a contrast of the Buddhist/Western perception. Your house catches fire, and before the firetrucks can arrive at the scene, it burns to the ground. Everybody is safe, but you've lost everything.
Western response? Probably something like: devastated.
Buddhist response: absolute joy.Now, how can the same event inspire such different responses? Cognition.
Here's a symbolic representation. Most people believe that an event triggers an emotional response, a feeling.... i.e. E --> F
But that's not the way it works at all. You interpret the event before you feel.
E + I --> F
Your cognition, which can respond instantaneously when needed, will interpret events, and then trigger emotions consistent with the interpretation. You can't do anything about E. That's reality. You've no control over reality. And feelings arise from cognitive "templates", beliefs, attitudes, assumptions, memories, social norms, all that stuff, so you really can't do much to change them *directly*. The only way at the feelings is through deciding on using new interpretations. The only thing I can change is "I".
It takes effort to become aware of cognition, but once that skill is learned, it's with you forever. I feel very empowered whenever I consciously choose a new cognitive schema.
> Klonopin helps with residual derealization that I can't seem to shake, and I am currently experiencing what I feel is a good response to Mg supplementation (seems to help with MVP-like symptoms that overlap a lot with panic, e.g. palpitations, random sympathetic discharge, insomnia. It also seems to "smooth" out my moods, like a mild mood stabilizer. I'm also pretty sure it augments my Klonopin. Recently, I've reduced my dose a bit, as my old dose is making me sedated! Time will tell. As for now, I'm getting more and more convinced.)
Experiments will do that, whereas reading leaves a tad more doubt.
That's where "You can't think your way into a new way of acting, but you can act your way into a new way of thinking." fist in.
> But I digress, my question was about CBT. What's your take?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
>
> "Yesterday is history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why they call it the present."
>
> "You can't think your way into a new way of acting, but you can act your way into a new way of thinking."
>
> ....which has a corrollary in, "If you keep on doing what you always did, you'll keep on getting what you always got."
>
> ....and another one in, "Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results, is a true measure of insanity."
>
> ....which underlie my belief that you have to "do the experiment".CBT is a wonderful tool.
Lar
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