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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 15:44:57
Which foods increase serotonin?
Can foods ALONE increase the levels as much as meds? Thanks!
Posted by stjames on May 18, 2003, at 19:14:22
In reply to Foods Serotonin, posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 15:44:57
> Which foods increase serotonin?
> Can foods ALONE increase the levels as much as meds? Thanks!Increasing serotonin does not help depression
as it is not caused be a lack of serotonin.
Increasing serotonin can cause serotonin
syndrome.Food contains proteins, made of amino-acids.
Amino-acids are the building blocks for neurotransmitters. However, your body is smart
and limits the amount of amino-acids used to make
neurotransmitters.It would seem we should listen to our bodies, they seem to be saying "Quit theying to increase
Serotonin because all I will do the flush out the excess persursors you are paying good money for".Unless one is homeless, not able to absorb nutrients correctly, or otherwise does not eat regular meals, ones body has all it needs to make
neurotransmitters and flushes quite a bit extra without using these persursors.One serving of meat or eggs contains all the aminos you will need.
Meds do not increase Serotonin, per se, they cause it to be regulated better and cause a complex adjustment of upstream and downstream
systems.
Posted by Bill L on May 19, 2003, at 11:19:24
In reply to Foods Serotonin, posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 15:44:57
Dark chocolate is supposed to increase serotonin. I eat one ounce every day for energy. It does a great job of combatting any tiredness caused by my 20 mg Lexapro. It also reduces blood pressure, reduces cholesterol and fights tooth decay. However, milk chocolate does not have as much of these benefits.
I have done a lot of reading about depression over the years and have never heard of any food at all that can take the place of prescription antidepressants. As good as I feel after eating dark chocolate, there is no way I could stop taking Lexapro as a result.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 10:21:14
In reply to Foods Serotonin, posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 15:44:57
> Which foods increase serotonin?
> Can foods ALONE increase the levels as much as meds? Thanks!The link between food and mood is well established, and I see it as one of the factors within one's control. You will not get a response analogous to antidepressant meds, but every little bit helps, IMHO.
Tryptophan, the twice-removed precursor to serotonin, is one of the amino acids in lower concentration in most protein-containing foods, seldom approaching even two percent of the aminos present.
For tryptophan to enter the brain, it must be taken up by active transporter molecules, as it otherwise cannot pass the so-called blood-brain barrier. The transporter in question, the LNAAT (Large Neutral Amino Acid Transporter) also is responsible for the uptake of four other aminos, and every one of them has a higher affinity for the transporter than has tryptophan.
There is a way to fudge the process a bit, and give tryptophan a better opportunity for uptake into the brain. What you do is eat a high protein meal, and about 45 minutes later, eat something which will promote a burst of insulin (something sweet). The insulin causes muscle fibers to take up many aminos from the blood, except for tryptophan. That gives the circulating tryptophan a much better opportunity for brain uptake.
This mechanism has been suggested as a possible reason for the contented doziness that follows a holiday feast where turkey is the main course. You get a good dose of tryptophan from the turkey, and in the typical scheme of things, you later follow up with a rich dessert course. It has also been suggested as a possible reason for carb-craving in some depressive phases, particularly seasonal affective disorder (SAD).
That said, there are other factors which may make this protein-followed-by-sweets process fail, such as low stomach acidity (inhibiting protein breakdown). I'm just suggesting here that there are always other factors influencing outcomes, so that a negative response to an attempt to regulate mood with food may be a failure for reasons quite apart from the factors you think you're manipulating.
Lar
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:33:02
In reply to Re: Foods Serotonin » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 10:21:14
nm
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:33:40
In reply to Re: Foods Serotonin » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 10:21:14
nm
Posted by samplemethod on May 24, 2003, at 8:54:10
In reply to Re: Foods Serotonin » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 10:21:14
Anyone using somethig with 5-htp to make it effective??
And below...
Very interesting Lar.Would you suggest the 45 min high carb method after taking a 5-htp pill. At the moment my 5-htp doesn't seem to affect me at all.
Some people also say take levodopa with 5-htp and that will work? Can you shed any light on this. I am also wondering if there is some sort of coenzyme for 5-htp to cross the blood brain barrier or have something to do with the the rate limiting step of 5-htp to setotonin (Within the brain). Some sort of hydroxylase.
Anyone using somethig with 5-htp to make it effective?
> > Which foods increase serotonin?
> > Can foods ALONE increase the levels as much as meds? Thanks!
>
> The link between food and mood is well established, and I see it as one of the factors within one's control. You will not get a response analogous to antidepressant meds, but every little bit helps, IMHO.
>
> Tryptophan, the twice-removed precursor to serotonin, is one of the amino acids in lower concentration in most protein-containing foods, seldom approaching even two percent of the aminos present.
>
> For tryptophan to enter the brain, it must be taken up by active transporter molecules, as it otherwise cannot pass the so-called blood-brain barrier. The transporter in question, the LNAAT (Large Neutral Amino Acid Transporter) also is responsible for the uptake of four other aminos, and every one of them has a higher affinity for the transporter than has tryptophan.
>
> There is a way to fudge the process a bit, and give tryptophan a better opportunity for uptake into the brain. What you do is eat a high protein meal, and about 45 minutes later, eat something which will promote a burst of insulin (something sweet). The insulin causes muscle fibers to take up many aminos from the blood, except for tryptophan. That gives the circulating tryptophan a much better opportunity for brain uptake.
>
> This mechanism has been suggested as a possible reason for the contented doziness that follows a holiday feast where turkey is the main course. You get a good dose of tryptophan from the turkey, and in the typical scheme of things, you later follow up with a rich dessert course. It has also been suggested as a possible reason for carb-craving in some depressive phases, particularly seasonal affective disorder (SAD).
>
> That said, there are other factors which may make this protein-followed-by-sweets process fail, such as low stomach acidity (inhibiting protein breakdown). I'm just suggesting here that there are always other factors influencing outcomes, so that a negative response to an attempt to regulate mood with food may be a failure for reasons quite apart from the factors you think you're manipulating.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 9:48:42
In reply to Re: Foods Serotonin ANOTHER question, posted by samplemethod on May 24, 2003, at 8:54:10
> Anyone using somethig with 5-htp to make it effective??
5-HTP will be effective on its own (or not, as the case may be). The rate-limiting step in the synthesis of serotonin is the conversion of l-tryptophan to 5-hydroxy-l-tryptophan. Once that is made, it is virtually instantaneously converted to 5-hydroxy-tryptamine (5-HT, or serotonin).
What are recognized as therapeutic doses of 5-HTP and l-tryptophan are, say, 50-100 mg 5-HTP, and 1-3 grams of l-tryptophan. Note, the twenty-fold (or more) difference in dose, not even accounting for the slightly higher molecular weight of 5-HTP.
There ain't no way to make it work better, unless you are nearly totally deficient in B-vitamins.
> And below...
> Very interesting Lar.
>
> Would you suggest the 45 min high carb method after taking a 5-htp pill. At the moment my 5-htp doesn't seem to affect me at all.Can't help you there. Given the physiological fact that 5-HTP is not normally found in the bloodstream, I have no idea just how it gets past the blood-brain barrier. Nevertheless, it does so, despite the relatively small dose. Can't hurt to try it. Let us know how the experiment works (or not).
> Some people also say take levodopa with 5-htp and that will work? Can you shed any light on this.You'd be simultaneously increasing dopamine and serotonin, by increasing intermediate precursors of both. Nothing more than that.
>I am also wondering if there is some sort of coenzyme for 5-htp to cross the blood brain barrier or have something to do with the the rate limiting step of 5-htp to setotonin (Within the brain). Some sort of hydroxylase.
The rate-limiting conversion of 5-HTP to 5-HT is a decarboxylase. A hydroxylase would back-convert 5-HTP to l-tryptophan.
Decarboxylase requires vitamin B-6.
Blood-brain barrier transporters use ATP for energy. Mitochondrial energy-production defects may inhibit that process, and that's what NADH fixes (or enhances).
> Anyone using somethig with 5-htp to make it effective?Try some B-6? Pyridoxine must be activated by liver conversion to pyridoxal-5-phosphate. There are defects in that process, so some people require P5P, rather than pyridoxine. It's hard to find, and friggin' expensive.
I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish, and the questions you're asking (by the way, I love questions). However, you must find ways to determine what aspects of your individual physiology are amenable to manipulation. In other words, you need to do experiments. What works for some will not work for others.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 10:16:20
In reply to Re: Foods Serotonin ANOTHER question, posted by samplemethod on May 24, 2003, at 8:54:10
> Anyone using somethig with 5-htp to make it effective??
Everything you could possibly want to know about 5-HTP....
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/5htp3-4.html
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 11:39:36
In reply to Re: Foods Serotonin ANOTHER question » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 9:48:42
> > Some people also say take levodopa with 5-htp and that will work? Can you shed any light on this.
>
> You'd be simultaneously increasing dopamine and serotonin, by increasing intermediate precursors of both. Nothing more than that.Perhaps you meant cabidopa. It's a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor. By blocking peripheral conversion to serotonin, you'd make more 5-HTP available to the brain. However, the efficacy of 5-HTP without carbidopa is clear.
Peripheral serotonin increase is probably not a good thing. Carcinoid tumours can pump out serotonin, and many of the symptoms arise from that. And, as I understand it, the heart valve damage caused by the combination therapy phen-fen was due to serotonin increases in cardiac muscle.
> >I am also wondering if there is some sort of coenzyme for 5-htp to cross the blood brain barrier or have something to do with the the rate limiting step of 5-htp to setotonin (Within the brain). Some sort of hydroxylase.
> The rate-limiting conversion of 5-HTP to 5-HT is a decarboxylase. A hydroxylase would back-convert 5-HTP to l-tryptophan.I don't know why I said "rate-limiting", above. Just delete that bit. The converting enzyme is a decarboxylase.
Posted by Caleb462 on May 24, 2003, at 14:08:03
In reply to Re: 5-HTP information » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 10:16:20
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/5htp3-4.html"It easily crosses the blood-brain barrier"
It does??? Well, damn, now I'm confused. So 5-HTP CAN cross the BBB and CAN be an effective AD? I thought it was all just hype.
That begs the question, if supplemented 5-HTP can cross the BBB, then could supplemented serotonin itself cross the BBB? It shouldn't be possible, but neither should 5-HTP's crossing, right?
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 14:23:08
In reply to Re: 5-HTP information - Larry, posted by Caleb462 on May 24, 2003, at 14:08:03
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/5htp3-4.html
>
> "It easily crosses the blood-brain barrier"
>
> It does??? Well, damn, now I'm confused. So 5-HTP CAN cross the BBB and CAN be an effective AD? I thought it was all just hype.
>
> That begs the question, if supplemented 5-HTP can cross the BBB, then could supplemented serotonin itself cross the BBB? It shouldn't be possible, but neither should 5-HTP's crossing, right?I hesitate to draw conclusions, absent further information. The 5-hydroxylation changes the electron density sufficiently, I'd surmise, that 5-HTP has little affinity for the tryptophan transporter. Yet, there's convincing evidence that 5-HTP does get into the brain. Empiricism has to win out over rationalization; the stuff gets into the brain somehow.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 14:53:37
In reply to Re: 5-HTP information - Larry, posted by Caleb462 on May 24, 2003, at 14:08:03
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/5htp3-4.html
>
> "It easily crosses the blood-brain barrier"
>
> It does??? Well, damn, now I'm confused. So 5-HTP CAN cross the BBB and CAN be an effective AD? I thought it was all just hype.
>
> That begs the question, if supplemented 5-HTP can cross the BBB, then could supplemented serotonin itself cross the BBB? It shouldn't be possible, but neither should 5-HTP's crossing, right?When I look at studies such as the following one, I'm left with two hypotheses: a) 5-HTP uptake into the brain is an active process, by some as yet unidentified transporter (which may not work as well in depressives); b) 5-HTP uptake is a passive process, but the blood-brain barrier has different characteristics in depressives than in healthy people (potentially reducing the ability of all manner of substances to access the brain compartment).
There is no doubt the stuff gets into the brain. And, there's no doubt it does so by a different process than tryptophan, as the presence of other amino acids in the blood has no effect of 5-HTP uptake. PET studies (not referenced here) have shown radiolabelled serotonin and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA, the metabolite of serotonin after it is "broken down" by monoamine oxidase) are present in the brain after dosing by radiolabelled 5-HTP.
In any case, and going back to a question first posed by samplemethod, pyridoxine taken with 5-HTP increases serotonin formation (in monkeys).
Acta Psychiatr Scand 1991 Jun;83(6):449-55
Low brain uptake of L-[11C]5-hydroxytryptophan in major depression: a positron emission tomography study on patients and healthy volunteers.
Agren H, Reibring L, Hartvig P, Tedroff J, Bjurling P, Hornfeldt K, Andersson Y, Lundqvist H, Langstrom B.
Department of Psychiatry, University Hospital, Uppsala, Sweden.
The precursor of serotonin, L-5-hydroxytryptophan (L-5-HTP), was radiolabelled with 11C in the beta-position, yielding [beta-11C]serotonin after decarboxylation, allowing positron emission tomography studies of L-5-HTP uptake across the blood-brain barrier. We studied 8 healthy volunteers and 6 patients with histories of DSM-III major depression, 2 with repeated examinations after clinically successful treatment. We report a significantly lower uptake of [11C]5-HTP across the blood-brain barrier in depressed patients, irrespective of phase of illness. The findings emphasize that serotonin is involved in depressive pathophysiology and support earlier suggestions that the transport of 5-HTP across the blood-brain barrier is compromised in major depression.
This is the end of the thread.
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