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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Snoozy on May 8, 2003, at 12:32:33
Hi -
I was wondering if anyone here had seen a psychopharmacologist and could share their experience? I thought about consulting one a few years ago, and I'm thinking about it again.
Thanks!
Posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 13:20:09
In reply to Anyone seen a psychopharmacologist?, posted by Snoozy on May 8, 2003, at 12:32:33
I don't think this is a true specility, with a board or certification. So I think one just calls themselves a psychopharmacologist because this is what they are intrested in.
My first pdoc was a psychopharmacologist. Excellent knowlage of meds and neurology
and very willing to discuss this. She took a very complete history. Quite comfortable with meds and
was good about discussing side effects. Willing to try most anything, within reason. "James, I don't care which AD you are on, as long as it works".
Even when meds did not work, she was very intrested in what the effect were as she said this was a big help in understanding my neurology.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2003, at 16:47:08
In reply to Anyone seen a psychopharmacologist?, posted by Snoozy on May 8, 2003, at 12:32:33
My pdoc calls himself a psychopharmacologist. I always thought it just meant he didn't want to talk about anything that wasn't meds, and strictly meds.
Posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 17:24:16
In reply to Re: Anyone seen a psychopharmacologist?, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2003, at 16:47:08
> My pdoc calls himself a psychopharmacologist. I always thought it just meant he didn't want to talk about anything that wasn't meds, and strictly meds.
Actually, Pdocs don't receive training on psychology, behavior, ect.
Posted by jack smith on May 8, 2003, at 18:26:22
In reply to Re: Anyone seen a psychopharmacologist?, posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 17:24:16
> Actually, Pdocs don't receive training on psychology, behavior, ect.
>Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Pdoc just a generic term for a psychiatrist. ALL psychiatrists have basic training in psychotherapy in med school and/or residency--they just don't necessarily perform it or see any worth in it.
If you mean psychopharmacologist, the one I have does have training in psychology and told me, at least, that he was required to perform years of psychotherapy in residency.
Posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 18:51:31
In reply to Pdocs » stjames, posted by jack smith on May 8, 2003, at 18:26:22
> Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Pdoc just a generic term for a psychiatrist. ALL psychiatrists have basic training in psychotherapy in med school and/or residency--they just don't necessarily perform it or see any worth in it.
No, they don't. They are medical docs, medical training has no time for this kind of stuff.
Common misconception.
Posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 18:58:20
In reply to Re: Pdocs, posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 18:51:31
take a look:
http://www.psychologyinfo.com/shrink.htm
It is my understanding this is changing,
but given the length of a mediacal training
JUST to be a medical doc, 8 years, there is not time for training in depth on psychological issues.
Posted by jack smith on May 8, 2003, at 19:34:10
In reply to Re: Pdocs, posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 18:58:20
> take a look:
>
> http://www.psychologyinfo.com/shrink.htm
>
> It is my understanding this is changing,
> but given the length of a mediacal training
> JUST to be a medical doc, 8 years, there is not time for training in depth on psychological issues.Perhaps things have changed since my psychiatrist went to school (the mid '80s). He absolutely did talk therapy in residency after one year of work doing general medicine in residency (psychiatrists are also required to do that). Maybe Dr. Bob knows? But, I don't see how you can draw such a clear cut line between "psychological" and "medical". Psychotherapy at one time was thought to be the only effective "medical" treatment for mental illness. No doubt this was incorrect but I think it is equally incorrect to say that drugs are the only "medical" treatment for mental illness.
Also, there are still PLENTY of PSYCHIATRISTS (yes, MD's) who perform only talk therapy or talk therapy in conjunction with medication. One of the reasons that talk therapy has declined so much in the last decade is that HMO's find it much cheaper to just have psychiatrists throw drugs at people. MOst psychiatrists--with many notable excpetions--these days to me are nothing but glorified pharmacists.
JACK
Posted by jack smith on May 8, 2003, at 19:39:43
In reply to Re: Pdocs, posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 18:58:20
> http://www.psychologyinfo.com/shrink.htm
Where on that website does it say that psychiatrists are not trained in talk therapy????? It specifically says that during residency, they often work in inpatient facilities where no doubt talk therapy goes on.
JACK
PS I think Dr. Bob can easily clear this up. I am POSITIVE that psychiatrists are trained in basic psychological theory regarding talk therapy.
Posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 22:31:58
In reply to Re: Pdocs, posted by jack smith on May 8, 2003, at 19:34:10
> Also, there are still PLENTY of PSYCHIATRISTS (yes, MD's) who perform only talk therapy or talk therapy in conjunction with medication.
Many do, few are trained. Given a PhD takes 6-8
years (Psychology) or a MSW takes 6 years, where people get training in behavior and theory,
how do you suggest this be crammed into to an 8 yr
medical degree ?I can tell you ther is a world of difference between the thearpy a pdoc gives and the kind a Psychologist does.
Tired there always being conflict with you, Jack, so I will not be responding to your posts anymore.
Posted by ace on May 9, 2003, at 0:04:53
In reply to Re: Pdocs, posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 22:31:58
St. James is correct. Psychiatrists nowdays are very much being taught a biological model of mental illness. We are seeing a lot of younger Pdocs being almost exclusively psychopharmacological in orientation. Some of the old ones still do their talk 'therapy' (I'm suprised that havent seen that it doesn't work yet!).
Clinical psychologists yield no power with psychoactive drugs. Nor should they. Their profession, IMO, is one based on fanciful ideas and pseudo-scientific observations. I believe psychology should not be labled a science. Believe me, after studying physics and chemistry at university level, you'll know what science is.
And it aint psychology!Half of the scholars in my uni's psych dpt have the biggest chips on their shoulders - it's like they never got the marks to be study science!
Psychology is a joke. Psychopharmacology is a science. Psychiatrists who practice talk therapy are naive and love the power they yield over their 'patient'. What makes THEM so smart? Who are they to tell you how to run your life?
I am master of my domain and always will be.
I know one will totally disagree with me about my views, but that is great, cause it makes life good that we think differently. Let us all be ourselves, without stepping on any toes. But, at the same time, don't let any toes step on you!
Ace.
Posted by Viridis on May 9, 2003, at 4:07:49
In reply to Re: Pdocs, Psychopharmacologists, and my opinion!, posted by ace on May 9, 2003, at 0:04:53
I really like my pdoc --- he was a GP for years, then trained in psychiatry when he was in his 50s. We usually talk much longer than what he charges for, and it's sort of a mix of therapy and psychopharmacology. But it always comes down to the meds. So, what is he? I'm not sure, but after our discussions he generally adjusts the meds in an appropriate way. This isn't real "therapy" (I've had plenty, and it never helped much) but I feel much better after we talk, and even better with the meds. His "intuition" is very sharp, and he does suggest behavioral modifications as well as drugs.
So, I'm not sure how I'd classify the treatment I'm receiving, but it helps immensely.
Posted by jack smith on May 9, 2003, at 12:10:33
In reply to Re: Pdocs, posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 22:31:58
because I don't recall disagreeing on anything else but, hey, suit yourself.
> Tired there always being conflict with you, Jack, so I will not be responding to your posts anymore.
Posted by JaneB on May 10, 2003, at 15:56:20
In reply to Pdocs » stjames, posted by jack smith on May 8, 2003, at 18:26:22
> > Actually, Pdocs don't receive training on psychology, behavior, ect.
> >
>
> Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Pdoc just a generic term for a psychiatrist. ALL psychiatrists have basic training in psychotherapy in med school and/or residency--they just don't necessarily perform it or see any worth in it.
>
> If you mean psychopharmacologist, the one I have does have training in psychology and told me, at least, that he was required to perform years of psychotherapy in residency.
>
Some pdocs see worth in therapy and even recommend it. They usually refer you to someone they work with.
Posted by JaneB on May 10, 2003, at 15:59:48
In reply to Re: Pdocs, posted by stjames on May 8, 2003, at 22:31:58
>
> I can tell you ther is a world of difference between the thearpy a pdoc gives and the kind a Psychologist does.
>
I agree, I guess. It took my pdoc 2 years to see the significance of clergy abuse on me as a child.
Posted by Geezer on May 10, 2003, at 22:09:51
In reply to Re: Pdocs, Psychopharmacologists, and my opinion!, posted by ace on May 9, 2003, at 0:04:53
> St. James is correct. Psychiatrists nowdays are very much being taught a biological model of mental illness. We are seeing a lot of younger Pdocs being almost exclusively psychopharmacological in orientation. Some of the old ones still do their talk 'therapy' (I'm suprised that havent seen that it doesn't work yet!).
>
> Clinical psychologists yield no power with psychoactive drugs. Nor should they. Their profession, IMO, is one based on fanciful ideas and pseudo-scientific observations. I believe psychology should not be labled a science. Believe me, after studying physics and chemistry at university level, you'll know what science is.
> And it aint psychology!
>
> Half of the scholars in my uni's psych dpt have the biggest chips on their shoulders - it's like they never got the marks to be study science!
>
> Psychology is a joke. Psychopharmacology is a science. Psychiatrists who practice talk therapy are naive and love the power they yield over their 'patient'. What makes THEM so smart? Who are they to tell you how to run your life?
>
> I am master of my domain and always will be.
>
> I know one will totally disagree with me about my views, but that is great, cause it makes life good that we think differently. Let us all be ourselves, without stepping on any toes. But, at the same time, don't let any toes step on you!
>
>
> Ace.Hi Ace,
I am not here to disagree, infact, I do agree with most of what you have stated. Psychologists are social scientists - psychology is a social science. Psychopharmacology is a medical practice (although a poor excuse at that). I recently went to a psychologist phd. and after an intake interview was told I was psychologically abused as a child. He went on to say that more than 99% of the people seen by psychologists, for depression, have been abused in there childhood, psychologicaly, physically, sexually, yadda, yadda, yadda. A statement like that is completely ludicrous. I would bet at least one half of the people he sees have "Woody Allen" syndrome (neurotics).
When you really think about it, psychiatry is based on psychology. There is no scientific proof (or scientific testing - even the double blind studies are flawed) for anything - all the evidence is anecdotal. The pdocs and psychologists help each other out with cross referrals. Sooo, if you have a sever mental disorder see a medical doctor, if you want to pay somebody to discuss "relationships" and "issues" see the psychologist. In my case a visit to the psychologist was akin to going to a chiropractor for open heart surgery. I'll stick with the pill rollers.
Geezer
Posted by stjames on May 11, 2003, at 2:43:18
In reply to Re: Pdocs, Psychopharmacologists, and my opinion!, posted by ace on May 9, 2003, at 0:04:53
> St. James is correct.
> Psychology is a joke.Thanks, but I highly disagree with
the second statement.Folks, I alsways get flack when I make this point.
How many years does it take to understand human
behavior and learn to art of thearpy ? Several, I suspect.It takes 8 years to be a doc, just a regular doc,
All Pdocs do this first, and they do not work on specility stuff during this 8 years. Then a few years of specility. There they learn the meds, how to Dx, treat, and I feel not enough neurology. Remember ER ? Docs work 24 hr shifts.
There is no way to fit 2 years of behavior science, concepts of thearpy, ect into this.I am not saying there is no connection between mind and body. I am saying it is unreasonable and unrealistic to ask a medical doc to be a trained behavior expert, also.
All the Pdoc's I have seen in 20 yrs made this clear. They are OK for a crisis but not for long term issues. However, I do know many do feel they have to give thearpy because often the HMO or $$ means they are all the patient has.
Some do try to give real psychothearpy. Some do take additional training, some are MD's and MSW's or PhD's. But a one semester cource in psychology does not an expert make.
You don't ask the plumber to fix the wiring in the bathroom, just because the bathroom is mostly
pipes and drains.I will agree that many are well served by the "supportive thearpy" Pdocs give. When the
psychological problems are not ingrained and what
problems exist are medical in orgin a Pdoc will do. Problems that are long term, in psychology, are real bears to deal with. They require a behavior and psychology expert. An expert with
years of specific training.I also understand that people want one stop shopping & it is a pain to open up to 2 people.
I count myself lucky that my primary doc is also an allergist and an ostiopath. I lucked out, I used to have to see all 3 as years of steriod use
for allergies stripped some bone. What luck, and cheaper, too.So, I would say if you are seeing a Pdoc for thearpy conserning long trem psychological issues, the question to ask is "What training
do you have in this" and "Medical School" is not
an answer that indicates a doc is qualified to do this.
Posted by judy1 on May 11, 2003, at 22:38:37
In reply to Anyone seen a psychopharmacologist?, posted by Snoozy on May 8, 2003, at 12:32:33
I have seen a psychiatrist who also had a degree in pharmacology and specialized in meds- he was very knowledgeable but I have a low tolerance for side-effects so I take minimal meds-(but I certainly would recommend someone like this if you have had success with medications and have a complex disorder(s). My present pdoc spent extra years taking therapy courses in addition to the 8 years (Gestalt, etc.) and I get both therapy and meds from him. hope this helped-judy p.s. also saw a neuropsychologist which was interesting :-)
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