![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:32:14
In reply to Re: What about GLA found in Evening Primrose Oil??, posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2003, at 11:59:37
> > How does this relate to the Adelaide study cited above???
> >
> > thanks guys
> > bluedog
>
> I'm not sure what to make of the Adelaide study.
>
> Lar
Thanks LarryIt seems you revived this thread after all. I would however like to link this thread to the following thread that I started down below.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030417/msgs/220599.html
Jaynee has given a link to a useful article on EFA's that I believe also addresses my questions>Would you agree???
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 9:56:32
In reply to Re: Recent article - Thankyou Jaynee » Jaynee, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:19:26
> > http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/CJP/current/haag.pdf
>
> Thankyou JayneeYes, thanks Jaynee.
> I've saved this article to my hard-drive for future reference.
>
> This article confirms my belief and it's apparent that omega-6 acids do NOT actually reduce the effectiveness of fish oil and that that omega-3 and omega-6 do act synergistically in the human body and in the brain.I don't see that the article says that at all. In fact, I think it's silent on the issue. The Adelaide study, and others in lab animals, show unequivocal inhibition of EPA uptake in the presence of linoleic acid. What effect that may have is unclear, but linoleic acid cannot go on to form signalling compounds (the leukotrienes, prostaglandins, et al) as it does not have double bonds separated by six positions, as do the PUFAs arichidonic, dihomogammalinolenic, EPA, DHA.
> However the most important thing is that the RATIOS of omega-6 to omega-3 need to be addressed and too much of either of these EFA's may reduce the effectiveness of the other (ie an imbalance of what the body naturally requires). It's just that in the Western diet the ratio is out of whack and most of us get too much omega-6 and not enough omega-3. I think that the conclusions of the Adelaide study cited above in this thread need to be interpreted in this context and therefore the results should be interpreted with care.The omega6:omega3 ratio is a non-specific comparison between classes or families of fatty acids. The Adelaide study addresses competition between single members of the classes. Linoleate intake is just one factor influencing the fatty acid metabolic parameters. The Adelaide study mentions margarine, but the abstract doesn't provide insight into the form the margarine takes (there are different types). If the margarine is the more typical hydrogenated vegatable oil form, then ingestion of trans-fatty acids becomes an uncontrolled variable. (The only way I'd know what was really going on is to read the whole paper.) That's why I think the rat study I posted shows a more clear picture of the effect; increases in linoleate are associated with decreases in EPA uptake. I don't see what that has to do with GLA.
> I know this issue has come up before on the med board!!
>
> warm regards
> bluedogI'll tack on your reference from the other thread. You said:
"Jaynee has given a link to a useful article on EFA's that I believe also addresses my questions.
Would you agree???"
Frankly, no I don't think so. It answers different question, IMHO. If there's a discrepancy in my thinking, try asking your questions again. The passage of time may have obscured what you're looking to have answered.
Lar
Posted by noa on April 20, 2003, at 10:56:49
In reply to Recent article on essential fatty acids brain, posted by Jaynee on April 19, 2003, at 12:30:23
Thanks for the article, Jaynee.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 11:59:47
In reply to Re: GLA - see Jaynee's response in thread below! » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:32:14
Just meandering through some research about GLA, and found that bone density is correlated to GLA intake.
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids 1995 Jul;53(1):13-9
The effect of different n-6/n-3 essential fatty acid ratios on calcium balance and bone in rats.
Claassen N, Coetzer H, Steinmann CM, Kruger MC.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Prostaglandins (PGs) are known to have various effects on bone metabolism. The supplementation of essential fatty acids (EFAs), the precursors of PGs, leads to increased intestinal calcium absorption and calcium balance. It is, however, not known whether increased calcium absorption and calcium balance will enhance the calcium content in bone. Male Sprague-Dawley rats (n = 40) aged 5-12 weeks were supplemented with EFAs. The main dietary EFAs, linoleic acid (LA) and alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) were administered in a ratio of 3:1 as a control group. The conversion of LA to ALA to the PG precursors is slow, with the first step, delta-6-desaturation being rate limiting. Fatty acids beyond this rate-limiting step, gamma-linolenic acid (GLA, n-6) and eicoapentaenioc acid (EPA, n-3), were administered to different groups in the ratios 3:1, 1:1 and 1:3 to explore the impact of different ratios of n-6 and n-3 EFAs. Intestinal calcium absorption (mg/24 h) increased by 41.5% in the 3:1 supplemented group, compared with the control group. The decrease in urinary calcium (mg/24 h) correlated with the increase in n-3 level. The calcium balance (mg/24 h) and bone calcium (mg/g bone ash) increased significantly in the 3:1 (41.5% and 24.7%) group, compared with the control. The increase in bone calcium might be attributed to an EFA-induced increase in circulating PGs. An increased synthesis of PGs acting on target bone cells, as well as changes in membrane fluidity, may underlie these observations.
Bone 1995 Apr;16(4 Suppl):385S-392S
Supplemented gamma-linolenic acid and eicosapentaenoic acid influence bone status in young male rats: effects on free urinary collagen crosslinks, total urinary hydroxyproline, and bone calcium content.Claassen N, Potgieter HC, Seppa M, Vermaak WJ, Coetzer H, Van Papendorp DH, Kruger MC.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Pretoria, Republic of South Africa.
The effect of different ratios of the prostaglandin precursors gamma-linolenic (GLA) and eicosapentaenoic (EPA) acids on bone status in growing rats measured as a function of free urinary pyridinium crosslinks and hydroxyproline levels was investigated. Male Sprague-Dawley rats were weaned onto an essential fatty acid deficient diet and from their fifth week, different groups of rats received a balanced, semisynthetic diet, supplemented with different ratios of GLA:EPA supplied as a mixture of evening primrose oil (EPO) and fish oil (FO). Controls were supplemented with linoleic (LA; sunflower oil) and alpha-linolenic (ALA; linseed oil) acids (3:1) or a commercially available rat chow. Animals were terminated at 84 days and femur length, ash weight, calcium content, free urinary pyridinium crosslinks (Pyd and Dpyd), total hydroxyproline (Hyp), and creatinine levels measured. Free urinary Pyd and Dpyd are good indicators of bone status and they correlated well with Hyp. Pyd and Dpyd excretion were significantly decreased in the higher GLA:EPA dietary groups and correlated well (r = 0.7) with Hyp levels. Concomitantly, bone calcium content increased significantly in the same dietary groups. These results suggest that diet supplementation with relatively high GLA:EPA ratios are more effective in inhibiting bone resorption than LA:ALA.
Also, GLA seems to beneficially affect glucose metabolism. This effect is apparently enhanced by co-administration of alpha-lipoic acid (no abstract for that).GLA apparently promotes leanness on eucaloric diets.
J Nutr 1994 Apr;124(4):469-74
Dietary gamma-linolenic acid-enriched oil reduces body fat content and induces liver enzyme activities relating to fatty acid beta-oxidation in rats.
Takada R, Saitoh M, Mori T.
Department of Animal Nutrition, National Institute of Animal Industry, Ibaraki-ken, Japan.
The objectives of this study were to examine the effects of dietary gamma-linolenic acid-enriched oil extracted from fungi on rat body composition and on the various enzyme activities relating to fat metabolism in the liver. The oil contained 25.3 g gamma-linolenic acid/100 g fatty acids. The levels of gamma-linolenic acid-enriched oil in the diets were 0, 1.5 and 4%, to give 0, 2.88 and 7.68 g gamma-linolenic acid/kg diet. The control diet contained 8% soybean oil. The rats were given free access to these diets for 4 wk. Body weight gain was less in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group, although food intake was similar among the three groups. Absolute and relative carcass fat weights were significantly lower in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group. Carcass protein and water contents were not different among the three groups, although values were slightly greater than controls in gamma-linolenic acid-fed groups when expressed relative to body weight. Plasma total cholesterol and free fatty acid concentrations generally were lower in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group. In the liver, there were no significant differences in activities of malic enzyme and citrate cleavage enzyme among the three groups. However, the activities of carnitine palmitoyl-transferase and peroxisomal beta-oxidation were significantly higher in the gamma-linolenic acid oil-fed groups than in the control group. These results clearly demonstrate that dietary gamma-linolenic acid oil reduces body fat content and facilitates fatty acid beta-oxidation in the liver.
Posted by Viridis on April 20, 2003, at 16:31:21
In reply to Re: Recent article - Thankyou Jaynee, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 9:56:32
I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 17:08:53
In reply to Summary please?, posted by Viridis on April 20, 2003, at 16:31:21
> I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
The take-home message:
GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
Posted by McPac on April 20, 2003, at 21:49:05
In reply to Re: Summary please?, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 17:08:53
"So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together".
>>>>>>Could these other two 'ingredients', when taken with the fish oil, make the fish oil work better for depression/psychiatric conditions? I saw a liquid product that had the omega 3's, 6's & 9's all in it the other night at a health food store...but I was wondering if the 6's & 9's could somehow block or negate the fish oil effects?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 22:23:51
In reply to Lar, Re: Summary please?, posted by McPac on April 20, 2003, at 21:49:05
> "So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together".
>
> >>>>>>Could these other two 'ingredients', when taken with the fish oil, make the fish oil work better for depression/psychiatric conditions?That's a possibility, but general health benefits certainly seem worth it, anyway. GLA apparently enhances neuroplasticity in the hippocampi, which is one the things needed to overcome depression.
>I saw a liquid product that had the omega 3's, 6's & 9's all in it the other night at a health food store...but I was wondering if the 6's & 9's could somehow block or negate the fish oil effects?
The 6's in that product (Udo's Oil?) are almost certainly dominated by linoleic acid. That one blocks some of the benefits of fish oil. I haven't seen anything about adverse interactions with the omega-9's.
I would bet that 99% of people (or more) already get quite enough omega-6's and omega-9's. The specific properties of the omega-6 GLA, and the general lack of it in the diet, make supplementation with it worthwhile. You're better off selecting the fatty acids you supplement than you are taking a blended oil like Udo's.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 22:24:25
In reply to Re: Summary please?, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 17:08:53
> > I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
>
> A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
>
> The take-home message:
> GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
>
>
LarryAm I correct in that the following can be added to your summary????
GLA must be taken TOGETHER with fish oil as GLA taken in isolation in the absence of fish oil is actually pushed down a pathway in the body that promotes it's conversion to INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins.
Larry I also have another question for you:):):).First a bit of background:-
I personally take GLA (as EPO) together with fish oil (6 capsules of 1000mg strength fish oil to give me 6g of fish oil per day which in turn gives me the recommeneded 1g of EPA per day) AND alpha lipoic acid (200mg per day). The EPO capsules I take are 1000mg capsules (cold pressed) that yield 100mg of GLA per capsule.
NOW my question is this:-
In the context of the above how many capsules of my EPO should I take per day. Is one capsule enough (ie 100mg of GLA) or should I take one (or 2 ore more) every time I take my fish oil (I take my fish oil in 3 divided doses of 2 capsules or 2000mg per dose to reach my target dose of 6g)? In other words has any research been done on the correct proportions per day of GLA to EPA and DHA to get the beneficial synergistic effects???
Thanks Larry
regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 22:40:42
In reply to Summary please. GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 22:24:25
> > > I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
> >
> > A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
> >
> > The take-home message:
> > GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
> >
> >
>
>
> Larry
>
> Am I correct in that the following can be added to your summary????
>
> GLA must be taken TOGETHER with fish oil as GLA taken in isolation in the absence of fish oil is actually pushed down a pathway in the body that promotes it's conversion to INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins.Yes, that's true.
> Larry I also have another question for you:):):).
>
> First a bit of background:-
>
> I personally take GLA (as EPO) together with fish oil (6 capsules of 1000mg strength fish oil to give me 6g of fish oil per day which in turn gives me the recommeneded 1g of EPA per day) AND alpha lipoic acid (200mg per day). The EPO capsules I take are 1000mg capsules (cold pressed) that yield 100mg of GLA per capsule.
>
> NOW my question is this:-
>
> In the context of the above how many capsules of my EPO should I take per day. Is one capsule enough (ie 100mg of GLA) or should I take one (or 2 ore more) every time I take my fish oil (I take my fish oil in 3 divided doses of 2 capsules or 2000mg per dose to reach my target dose of 6g)? In other words has any research been done on the correct proportions per day of GLA to EPA and DHA to get the beneficial synergistic effects???
>
> Thanks Larry
> regards
> bluedogThe answer might surprise you. I've seen some research that puts the optimum ratio at 2:1 EPA:GLA. In other words, you'd need five EPO caps. Just to compare, you'd get about the same amount of GLA from 2 grams of borage oil.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 23:21:19
In reply to Re: Summary please. GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? » bluedog, posted by Larry Hoover on April 20, 2003, at 22:40:42
> > > > I haven't read through all of this very carefully, but am I correct in inferring that supplementation with GLA (e.g., from evening primrose oil) appears likely to be beneficial, in addition to use of fish oil?
> > >
> > > A better source is borage oil (near double the percentage of GLA).
> > >
> > > The take-home message:
> > > GLA is anti-inflammatory, helps regulate insulin sensitivity, enhances bone density, promotes hippocampal neuroplasticity, and may be the first word in a child's vocabulary. It works synergistically with fish oil, and with alpha-lipoic acid. So, I'd recommend taking all three (fish oil, borage/evening primrose/black currant seed oil, alpha-lipoic acid) together.
> > >
> > Larry
> >
> > Am I correct in that the following can be added to your summary????
> >
> > GLA must be taken TOGETHER with fish oil as GLA taken in isolation in the absence of fish oil is actually pushed down a pathway in the body that promotes it's conversion to INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins.
>
> Yes, that's true.
>
> > Larry I also have another question for you:):):).
> >
> > First a bit of background:-
> >
> > I personally take GLA (as EPO) together with fish oil (6 capsules of 1000mg strength fish oil to give me 6g of fish oil per day which in turn gives me the recommeneded 1g of EPA per day) AND alpha lipoic acid (200mg per day). The EPO capsules I take are 1000mg capsules (cold pressed) that yield 100mg of GLA per capsule.
> >
> > NOW my question is this:-
> >
> > In the context of the above how many capsules of my EPO should I take per day. Is one capsule enough (ie 100mg of GLA) or should I take one (or 2 ore more) every time I take my fish oil (I take my fish oil in 3 divided doses of 2 capsules or 2000mg per dose to reach my target dose of 6g)? In other words has any research been done on the correct proportions per day of GLA to EPA and DHA to get the beneficial synergistic effects???
> >
> > Thanks Larry
> > regards
> > bluedog
>
> The answer might surprise you. I've seen some research that puts the optimum ratio at 2:1 EPA:GLA. In other words, you'd need five EPO caps. Just to compare, you'd get about the same amount of GLA from 2 grams of borage oil.
>
> Lar
Thanks again Larry {I've lost count of the number of times I've thanked you and but I don't know how else to repay your patience with my questions :):):)}.I'll look at borage oil next time but I've already bought the EPO capsules. You've given the ideal amounts but I suppose that ANY GLA with fish oil is better than none. Right????
Because EPO is actually more expensive in my part of the world than fish oil supplements (see below) I think I'll take one EPO capsule every time I take my 2 fish oil capsules which will give me 3g of EPO to 6g of fish oil (or put another way 300mg of GLA to 1g of EPA) Taking into account cost considerations do you think this is a good compromise???
warm regards
bluedogP.S. (following on from above) Fish oil is cheap in my town. I can purchase 400 1000mg capsules for $24.95 Australian Dollars (I suppose this equates to about $15.00 US Dollars depending on the exchange rate at the time for the 400 capsules). This works out to 6 Australian cents per fish oil capsule. The EPO is actually more expensive and and the price is 400 1000mg capsules for $32.95 Australian Dollars (go figure?)
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 8:19:25
In reply to Re: GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? Thanks » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 23:21:19
> Thanks again Larry {I've lost count of the number of times I've thanked you and but I don't know how else to repay your patience with my questions :):):)}.Your manners won't let you not thank me. I understand.
> I'll look at borage oil next time but I've already bought the EPO capsules. You've given the ideal amounts but I suppose that ANY GLA with fish oil is better than none. Right????
Yes. If you'll recall the dose-ranging study of ethyl eicosapentaenoate (E-EPA) that determined that 1 gram/day of EPA was better than 2 grams/day, you can see that it may be possible to get too much (or it could mean that you need the DHA in fish oil too). Similarly, a dose-ranging study of GLA found that too much had little effect. In other words, there seems to be a dose ceiling, beyond which the benefits seem to taper off. That ceiling was somewhere between 2 and 4 grams/day of GLA.
> Because EPO is actually more expensive in my part of the world than fish oil supplements (see below) I think I'll take one EPO capsule every time I take my 2 fish oil capsules which will give me 3g of EPO to 6g of fish oil (or put another way 300mg of GLA to 1g of EPA) Taking into account cost considerations do you think this is a good compromise???
>
> warm regards
> bluedogAbsolutely. You'll certainly obtain benefits from both oils (though you may not see the benefits literally).
> P.S. (following on from above) Fish oil is cheap in my town. I can purchase 400 1000mg capsules for $24.95 Australian Dollars (I suppose this equates to about $15.00 US Dollars depending on the exchange rate at the time for the 400 capsules). This works out to 6 Australian cents per fish oil capsule. The EPO is actually more expensive and and the price is 400 1000mg capsules for $32.95 Australian Dollars (go figure?)
If you realized just how many evening primrose seeds gave up their future for each capsule of oil, you may find your surprise diminishing.
Lar
Posted by noa on April 21, 2003, at 12:16:34
In reply to Re: GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 8:19:25
I read about the research that found 1 gram of EPA effective, but not 2 grams. But when I found positive effect from the fish oil, my pdoc suggested I take more, based on his experience with other patients. And it turned out that I definitely felt increased improvement with more fish oil, despite what the study says. If I remember correctly, it was a small study, and I am sure more research is needed about fish oil anyway.
I now take about 2 tablespoons a day of fish oil, which gives about 4800 mg of EPA.
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 13:44:37
In reply to Re: Yes but..., posted by noa on April 21, 2003, at 12:16:34
> I read about the research that found 1 gram of EPA effective, but not 2 grams. But when I found positive effect from the fish oil, my pdoc suggested I take more, based on his experience with other patients. And it turned out that I definitely felt increased improvement with more fish oil, despite what the study says. If I remember correctly, it was a small study, and I am sure more research is needed about fish oil anyway.
>
> I now take about 2 tablespoons a day of fish oil, which gives about 4800 mg of EPA.As chance would have it, I take the same brand of fish oil as Noa (i.e.; Carlson). I have experimented with my dose over the past year or so that I have been taking fish oil and, like Noa, I find added benefit as I increase the daily dose above and beyond the 1 g/day of EPA level.
I currently take three teaspoons (i.e.; one tablespoon) which contain 2400 mg EPA, 1500 mg DHA, and 900 mg of "other omega-3 fatty acids". I think I'd experience further benefits by taking even more, but this stuff is kind of spendee.
I've been buying the Carlson fish oil at a local nutritional store and I like to give them my business because they have a very helpful and knowledgeable staff. However, they charge $19.90 (US) for the 200 ml bottle. At my current three teaspoon dose, it costs me $1.50 per day. I'd like to increase the dose, but I think I need to shop around on the internet for a more competitive price.
Bottom line: For me, more is better.
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 14:46:14
In reply to Re: I experience results similar to Noa's., posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 13:44:37
> > I read about the research that found 1 gram of EPA effective, but not 2 grams. But when I found positive effect from the fish oil, my pdoc suggested I take more, based on his experience with other patients. And it turned out that I definitely felt increased improvement with more fish oil, despite what the study says. If I remember correctly, it was a small study, and I am sure more research is needed about fish oil anyway.
> >
> > I now take about 2 tablespoons a day of fish oil, which gives about 4800 mg of EPA.
>
> As chance would have it, I take the same brand of fish oil as Noa (i.e.; Carlson). I have experimented with my dose over the past year or so that I have been taking fish oil and, like Noa, I find added benefit as I increase the daily dose above and beyond the 1 g/day of EPA level.
>
> I currently take three teaspoons (i.e.; one tablespoon) which contain 2400 mg EPA, 1500 mg DHA, and 900 mg of "other omega-3 fatty acids". I think I'd experience further benefits by taking even more, but this stuff is kind of spendee.
>
> I've been buying the Carlson fish oil at a local nutritional store and I like to give them my business because they have a very helpful and knowledgeable staff. However, they charge $19.90 (US) for the 200 ml bottle. At my current three teaspoon dose, it costs me $1.50 per day. I'd like to increase the dose, but I think I need to shop around on the internet for a more competitive price.
>
> Bottom line: For me, more is better.
>
> -- RonI am glad you guys weighed in with your personal experiences. I always had two serious problems with the ethyl-eicosapentaenoate study: 1)They assumed a substantial equivalence between ethyl-eicosapentaenoate and fish oil; 2)They tested a derivative of fish oil that was patentable.
The first concern seems to have been substantiated by your individual experiences. There is more in fish oil than just EPA, and I would be majorly surprised to discover that none of the rest had any activity, let alone synergistic effects with EPA.
The second concern is the money-making scam. You can't patent fish oil, and I'm sceptical of the motives of any researcher employing a patentable derivative in clinical trials.
I would never accuse the authors of the dose-ranging study of E-EPA of falsifying data, but it does seem that there are limitations to the generalizability of their findings. The ethyl ester of eicosapentaenoic acid seems to be less effective than is fish oil.
Lar
Posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:42:58
In reply to Re: I experience results similar to Noa's., posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 13:44:37
$14.99 a bottle (if you buy the 4-pack special)
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 22:08:37
In reply to Ron Hill Re: I experience results similar to, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:42:58
Posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 23:07:48
In reply to Re: Thank you kindly for the link. (nm) » McPac, posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 22:08:37
nm
Posted by noa on April 22, 2003, at 7:34:53
In reply to Ron Hill Re: I experience results similar to, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:42:58
Posted by noa on April 22, 2003, at 7:37:26
In reply to Re: FO vs. E-EPA Ron and noa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 14:46:14
Thanks, Larry, for those insights.
I guess I am also wary of drawing too many conclusions from the research as it is still early in the research process--few studies, still small, etc.
But I enjoy your help in interpreting information.
I'm still "digesting" the info on the synergy between the GLA and EPA/DHA etc. It's getting complicated! But I'll reread your posts and "absorb" it in time.
Thanks. Hope you are continuing to feel healthier!
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 22, 2003, at 9:19:45
In reply to Re: FO vs. E-EPA Ron and noa, posted by noa on April 22, 2003, at 7:37:26
> Thanks, Larry, for those insights.
>
> I guess I am also wary of drawing too many conclusions from the research as it is still early in the research process--few studies, still small, etc.
>
> But I enjoy your help in interpreting information.
>
> I'm still "digesting" the info on the synergy between the GLA and EPA/DHA etc. It's getting complicated! But I'll reread your posts and "absorb" it in time.
>
> Thanks. Hope you are continuing to feel healthier!I'm feeling better, thanks. Except, the last thing I want to do is overwhelm people with information. That serves no purpose, ya know?
Can I help you with anything?
Lar
P.S. Here's an abstract about the GLA/lipoic acid synergy:
Diabetologia 1998 Apr;41(4):390-9
Effects of alpha-lipoic acid on neurovascular function in diabetic rats: interaction with essential fatty acids.Cameron NE, Cotter MA, Horrobin DH, Tritschler HJ.
Department of Biomedical Sciences, University of Aberdeen, Scotland, UK.
Elevated oxidative stress and impaired n-6 essential fatty acid metabolism contribute to defective nerve conduction velocity (NCV) and perfusion in diabetic rats, which may be corrected by free radical scavenger and gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) treatments. Alpha-lipoic acid (LPA) has antioxidant actions and both LPA racemate (racLPA) and GLA treatments produced benefits in clinical neuropathy trials. The aims were to study LPA action on neurovascular function in diabetic rats and to investigate potential interactions for co-treatment with GLA and other essential fatty acids. After 6 weeks of diabetes, 2 weeks of racLPA treatment corrected 20% sciatic motor and 14% saphenous sensory NCV deficits. The ED50 for motor NCV restoration was approximately 38 mg kg(-1) day(-1). racLPA also corrected a 49% diabetic deficit in sciatic endoneurial blood flow. R and S-LPA enantiomers were equipotent in correcting NCV and blood flow deficits. Treatment of diabetic rats with low doses (20 mg kg(-1) day(-1)) of racLPA and GLA, while having modest effects on their own, showed evidence of marked synergistic action in joint treatment, completely correcting motor NCV and blood flow deficits. This was also noted for the novel compound, SOC0150, which contains equimolar proportions of LPA and GLA (ED50 9.3 mg kg(-1) day(-1), containing 3.5 mg LPA). NCV effects also showed marked synergism when racLPA:GLA ratios were varied over a 1:3-3:1 range. In contrast, a compound containing LPA and the n-3 component, docosahexaenoic acid, showed similar activity to LPA alone. Thus, LPA-GLA interactions yield drug combinations and compounds with an order of magnitude increase in efficacy against experimental diabetic neuropathy and are worthy of consideration for clinical trials.
And here's one of the easier to understand ones that demonstrate that GLA suppresses the artery-damaging pathology in atherosclerosis:Adv Exp Med Biol 1999;469:485-91
Modulation of atherogenesis by dietary gamma-linolenic acid.
Fan YY, Ramos KS, Chapkin RS.
Faculty of Nutrition, Texas A&M University, College Station 77843, USA.
Data from our in vitro studies indicate that macrophages isolated from mice fed GLA-enriched diets inhibit vascular SMC proliferation via a PGE1-cAMP dependent mechanism. Since SMC proliferation is one of the main events implicated in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis (Ross, 1993), this anti-proliferative effect observed by dietary GLA is noteworthy. In vivo studies have established that dietary GLA is capable of retarding the atherosclerotic lesion formation in ApoE knock out mice, an animal model that develops atherosclerosis similar to humans (Reddick, 1994). We propose that dietary GLA has the potential to inhibit SMC proliferation leading to retardation of atherosclerotic lesion formation, and therefore favorable modulation of the atherogenic process.
Posted by pelorojo on April 22, 2003, at 14:43:06
In reply to Re: more more on GLA » noa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 22, 2003, at 9:19:45
Well, not to overly contort this but - I'm taking CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid - Tonalin) for some support in my attempt to lose weight. So...am I countering the effects of the pricey chi-chi fish oil I'm taking (Omegabrite)?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 22, 2003, at 15:48:42
In reply to What about CLA?, posted by pelorojo on April 22, 2003, at 14:43:06
> Well, not to overly contort this but - I'm taking CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid - Tonalin) for some support in my attempt to lose weight. So...am I countering the effects of the pricey chi-chi fish oil I'm taking (Omegabrite)?
This is a murky subject.....I can't find anything on point. One of the common CLA isomers inhibits three desaturation enzymes, so it's important that you are taking preformed long-chain omega-3s. You might want to add in some GLA for good measure.
It's possible that CLA inhibits bone deposition, but whether that's significant is another question I can't answer. CLA blocks PGE2 formation, so it definitely has anti-inflammatory properties.
There's no clear answer (that I could find). Sorry.
Lar
Posted by pelorojo on April 22, 2003, at 16:37:26
In reply to Re: What about CLA?, posted by Larry Hoover on April 22, 2003, at 15:48:42
Posted by joebob on July 15, 2003, at 14:32:01
In reply to Re: GLA MUST be taken with fish oil? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 8:19:25
This is the end of the thread.
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