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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 19, 2003, at 13:28:05
Does anyone know anything about Lithium Orotate? It's available web-wide but Serenity is the proprietary product by Dr. Hans Neiper who has a good rep in nutritional circles. The blurb says that orotic acid transports it more effectively into the bb-barrier, less lithium in blood levels are needed, hence less lithium side effects.
I've ordered a bottle 'just to see' and will report on my observations. I'll run out of lithium this weekend, will probably get manic and tweaky. When my Li Orotate order arrives mid-week it will be a fabulous experiment. Just in case, I'm reordering my good old lithium carbonate. Here's a page from their website:
www.findserenitynow.com/product_info_3.html
Posted by Janelle on April 19, 2003, at 13:50:01
In reply to Lithium orotate? Any difference?, posted by Barbara Cat on April 19, 2003, at 13:28:05
Hi Barbara Cat - do you remember me from way back when on here? You and I sent messages across here quite frequently for awhile?!!!
Anyway, I know a little about ithium Orotate - mostly that any product in OROTATE form is the MOST readily/easily absorbed.
I have heard of Dr. Hans Neiper and he sure does have a good rep in nutritional circles.
I didn't know that the orotic (gee that sounds almost like erotic - LOL!) acid transports it more effectively into the bb-barrier - this is VERY IMPORTANT because many of the NON-medicinal supplements do NOT cross the bb-barrier (I tried 5HTP for serotonin/a-d) and it did not work because it did not cross the bb-barrier.
That is great that you have ordered a bottle 'just to see' and I can't wait until you report on your observations.
What dosage of Lithium are you on? I take *only* 450 mg/day because it's al I can tolerate, and I recently augemented it (well pdoc had me to it) with a low dose of Depakote. I have read that this combo is effective in treatment resistant mood swings, which I was having (they were also induced by EffexorXR, but I bet I'd still be having them were it not for the Dep/Lith)
KEEP ME/US posted. If the Lithium Orotate works for you, I just may ask my pdoc about it because I would like to stop feeling like a human drug store with all these meds I'm on.
Thanks for the website and good luck.
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 19, 2003, at 14:03:19
In reply to Re: Lithium orotate? Any difference? » Barbara Cat, posted by Janelle on April 19, 2003, at 13:50:01
Janelle!!
How nice to hear from you again! I've wondered many times how you were doin'. 5-HTP didn't work for me either but L-tryptophan did. At least it definitely helped the muscle aches from fibromyalgia. I had to get it from a veterinary supply on the web because of the bad press it got a few years ago from a contaminated batch.I'll definitely keep you posted. You might have to educate your doc on orotate (yes, I did notice the 'erotic' similarity). Mine sure doesn't have time to keep up with all we're learning here on this board. - BarbaraCat
Posted by Janelle on April 19, 2003, at 20:13:15
In reply to Re: Lithium orotate? Any difference? » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on April 19, 2003, at 14:03:19
Hi Barbara Cat!
I know what you mean about probably having to clue my pdoc in about OROTATE's ... however, HE is very open to natural/alternative therapies (he is a follower of Jon Kabat-Zinn, the Mind-Body Connection guru) AND HE (pdoc) told me that another client of his turned him on to a natural thyroid supplement that he is going to have ME try down the road (I'm currently on Synthroid)!
So, my pdoc will either give me a blank expression when I mention Lithium Orotate or he will acknowledge somehow (nodding his head, saying yes, etc.) that he is familiar with Orotates. I have a feeling he is not, since it was a client not him who discovered the natural thyroid supplement that works!
Please keep me/us posted on how the Lithium Orotate works out for you. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 20, 2003, at 12:41:06
In reply to Pdocs and *natural* supplements ! » Barbara Cat, posted by Janelle on April 19, 2003, at 20:13:15
Hi Janelle,
Interesting that you mention natural thyroid. My thyroid has been low forever and I was on Armour for many years and was doing fine. Since taking lithium, the hypothyroidism has gotten much worse. In fact, that's the main reason I want to try orotate. It's even recommended for low thyroid! My current HMO provider has me on increasing doses of synthetic thyroid and I'm not sure about it. One advantage I've noticed is that I don't get the spikes of jitteriness caused by T3 hitting my bloodstream as I did with Armour. On the other hand, I feel I could use a bit more of that T3 zoom. I have a feeling I'm going to have to take things into my own hands and add a pinch of Armour from my stash in the afternoons.You're very lucky with your doc. Here's another good site with info on cell transporters:
www.arrowheadhealthworks.com/neiper.htm
Posted by Janelle on April 20, 2003, at 20:34:39
In reply to Re: Pdocs and *natural* supplements ! » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on April 20, 2003, at 12:41:06
Hi there BarbaraCat,
Now it's my turn to say interesting that you should mention Armour Thyroid - if a person is going to take natural Thyroid, that is the one to take because it is regulated by the FDA and I believe you have to have a prescription for it?
Now listen to what happened to me and got me into this hypothyroid mess - almost a year ago, I went to a doctor (a pdoc in fact) who specialized in thyroid disorders. He claimed that every illness under the sun was due to low thyroid and did extensive (and expensive!) blood tests with his own narrow range. And just about all his patients came out with LOW/Hypothyroid, including me!
I was VERY skeptical of his practice, I did not care for him as a person, but I was already *out-of-it* and my younger sister, who can be quite forceful, pressured and pushed me to give his program a try. BIG MISTAKE. And from thereonin, I vowed to listen to MY own instincts; even if I'm not feeling up to par.
Anyway, he gave me supplements called Nature-Throid which he said was like Armour, but hypoallergenic. Well, in combination with the psych meds I was on at that time, taking that thyroid supplement caused my thyroid to STOP functioning! My TSH was ZERO and either my T3 or T4 (you'd probably know which one; I don't quite understand thyroid stuff) was way too high, apparently to compensate for the lack of TSH being released. Ack!
I subsequently found out through yet another pdoc who did some research on what I'd been taking that it is NOT regulated by the FDA, so you don't know from pill to pill or bottle to bottle just how much natural thyroid you are getting! I could have (and probably was) getting way too much natural thyroid. Too much of a good thing ...
Prior to going to that so-called thyroid specialist, I ALWAYS tested in the normal range for my thyroid, and I have a feeling that with the LOW dose of Lithium I'm on, I probably will (hopefuly will) test normal after my current pdoc stops the Synthroid on a test/experimental basis and has me go for a thyroid blood test. But we won't get to that for awhile, after we streamline some of my other meds first.
As for you, you indicated that your current HMO provider has you on increasing doses of synthetic thyroid - which one is it - Synthroid, Cytomel or something else? Just curious. And what dose are you up to?
Thanks for your info.
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 20, 2003, at 21:57:40
In reply to Have I got a NATURAL THYROID story 4 U! » Barbara Cat, posted by Janelle on April 20, 2003, at 20:34:39
Hi Janelle,
Hmmm, that doctor wouldn't be Dr. Ross, would it? I had one who sounds exactly like your doc, only he wasn't a pdoc. He put me on thyroid med without even testing me! But it turns out that in my case I was hypothyroid, even tho he gave it to everyone under the sun. I'm currently taking levothyroxine, a synthetic Synthroid at 137.5 micrograms and could easily go to 150. On Armour, before I was taking lithium, my TSH was about 2.5 which is great (even tho my T3 was too high). But since taking lithium it went up to 17 which is bad news. Please forgive me if you already know this, but the lower the TSH value, the more thyroid is in your system cause it's the pituitary that senses if there's enough thyroid floating around. If it senses that there isn't enough, it pumps out Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which tells the thyroid to make more. A high TSH means that the pituitary is kicking the thryoid saying "Hey, you're not producing". Too low a TSH value, like yours was, means you're in the hyperthyroid range, probably because this quack was giving you too much. Too much thyroid med for too long causes the thyroid gland to shut down and leaches out calcium, and can cause osteoporosis and heart problems. What a jerk! I feel like going after him with a staple gun!The natural brands supply all the thyroid hormones and not just T4 like the Synthroids do. Cytomel is synthetic T3. T3 is the active form and most docs believe that T4 will get converted to T3, but that ain't always the case. Some people don't convert well and there's lots of research that says that some T3, especially for depressives, is needed. The only problem is that T3 can cause anxiety and jitters if it gets into the blood stream too fast and can exacerbate manic depression. I think that was what was going on with me for a while, too much T3. Jeez, I wish we could just get scanned instead of these hit or miss cures.
Posted by Janelle on April 21, 2003, at 0:01:41
In reply to Re: Have I got a NATURAL THYROID story 4 U! » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on April 20, 2003, at 21:57:40
Hi BarbaraCat,
Nope, the doc's name wasn't Dr. Ross; it was some French sounding name and he was from overseas.
That sounds worse than what happened to me - your being put on thyroid med with NO testing!
I'm a bit confused by something you said - you said that you are currently taking levothyroxine, a synthetic Synthroid at 137.5 micrograms and could easily go to 150. This implies (at least to dumb me!) that Synthroid is *natural* if what you're taking is a *synthetic* version? Yet Synthroid is a prescription med, which I have always heard is synthetic. So are you taking a synthetic of a synthetic? HELP!
Thanks SOOOOO much for the simple, in English, easy to follow description of thyroid action, specifically the TSH part. I had it backwards! Now I remember however, that when I got into the hands of a competent doctor he told me the basics of what you said and that I was HYPERthroid at that point.
I think my TSH is now around 7, does that sound right?
Thank goodness I was only on that unregulated natural thyroid supplement for a few months - I had no idea that too much thyroid med for too long causes the thyroid gland to shut down and leaches out calcium, and can cause osteoporosis and heart problems. EEK.
I do know that the natural brands supply all the thyroid hormones and not just T4 like the Synthroids do, which is why the naturals are supposed to be superior.
I also know that Cytomel is synthetic T3, T3 is the active form and that most docs believe that T4 will get converted to T3, but that is not always the case.
I have heard that some people don't convert well, but was not aware that there's lots of research that says that some T3, especially for depressives, is needed.
Thanks for sharing all that ...!
Posted by Snoozy on April 21, 2003, at 0:24:17
In reply to Verrrry interesting re THYROID ... » Barbara Cat, posted by Janelle on April 21, 2003, at 0:01:41
Janelle! You've been holding out on me - you didn't tell me you were taking Synthroid ;) That's ok, I am too!
Yikes - that's all I can say about the questionable thyroid diagnoses/treatment you and Barbara Cat received. I'm glad you're both finding appropriate treatment. I heartily concur with everything Barbara Cat said, even the staple gun part.
Synthroid and Levothroid are both synthetic thyroxine.
TSH levels, I don't know if the reference ranges are standard, but here's what I can tell you from my own records:
My dr tells me what my uTSH result is (ultra sensitive thyroid stimulating hormone, inversely related to thyroid hormone level). The reference range of normal for this is 0.47 to 5.01. On one of my lab reports, I also see a TSH level, with the reference range being 0.34-5.60.
Again, I don't know if those are standard ranges for all labs or not.
It would be nice if all of our ailments could be blamed on hypothyroidism and cured with a pill with no side effects, but sadly we know that it can never be that easy!
> Hi BarbaraCat,
>
> Nope, the doc's name wasn't Dr. Ross; it was some French sounding name and he was from overseas.
>
> That sounds worse than what happened to me - your being put on thyroid med with NO testing!
>
> I'm a bit confused by something you said - you said that you are currently taking levothyroxine, a synthetic Synthroid at 137.5 micrograms and could easily go to 150. This implies (at least to dumb me!) that Synthroid is *natural* if what you're taking is a *synthetic* version? Yet Synthroid is a prescription med, which I have always heard is synthetic. So are you taking a synthetic of a synthetic? HELP!
>
> Thanks SOOOOO much for the simple, in English, easy to follow description of thyroid action, specifically the TSH part. I had it backwards! Now I remember however, that when I got into the hands of a competent doctor he told me the basics of what you said and that I was HYPERthroid at that point.
>
> I think my TSH is now around 7, does that sound right?
>
> Thank goodness I was only on that unregulated natural thyroid supplement for a few months - I had no idea that too much thyroid med for too long causes the thyroid gland to shut down and leaches out calcium, and can cause osteoporosis and heart problems. EEK.
>
> I do know that the natural brands supply all the thyroid hormones and not just T4 like the Synthroids do, which is why the naturals are supposed to be superior.
>
> I also know that Cytomel is synthetic T3, T3 is the active form and that most docs believe that T4 will get converted to T3, but that is not always the case.
>
> I have heard that some people don't convert well, but was not aware that there's lots of research that says that some T3, especially for depressives, is needed.
>
> Thanks for sharing all that ...!
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 2:21:14
In reply to Lithium orotate? Any difference?, posted by Barbara Cat on April 19, 2003, at 13:28:05
Posted by dingbat on April 21, 2003, at 12:03:32
In reply to Lithium orotate? Any difference?, posted by Barbara Cat on April 19, 2003, at 13:28:05
HI
I've also scoured the Serenity web page and toyed with the idea of trying the product out. I would be very, VERY interested to know if it is helpful for my 'conditions': dysthymia, major depressive episodes, sporadic patches of anxiety, migraine headaches.Cheers, and GOOD LUCK
Dingbat
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 21, 2003, at 13:04:12
In reply to Re: Lithium orotatE? PLEASE LET US KNOW!, posted by dingbat on April 21, 2003, at 12:03:32
Wow, am I finding alot of info on orotates! Not just lithium but calcium, magnesium, zinc, etc. Orotic acid, or B13, according to Dr. Hans Neiper transports the mineral more efficiently into the cell membrane. In my searches I found a very interesting use for calcium orotate - weight loss and cognitive enhancement! Here's a website that has many different fascinating articles on mineral transport.
The article on Orotates for Weight Loss, Cognitive Enhancement and Athletic Performance is especially enlightening. Of course, they do sell products so some discernment is in order.
BTW, Janelle, a TSH of 7 is still too high and in the hypothyroid range. You want to aim for under 3.0 in standard lab test ranges.
Re the Serenity product. It's much more expensive than other lithium orotates available. They say that their product is enterically coated and bypasses the destruction by stomach acids, is more bioavailable and blah blah. I've ordered a bottle and guess I'll do a comparison by ordering the half as expensive NCI brand (supposedly Dr. Neiper's brand) for the following month. I'm already starting to feel edgy and tweaky from my standard lithium carbonate withdrawal. But on with the Cause to explore better roads to mental equilibrium!
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 20:04:33
In reply to Orotates » dingbat, posted by Barbara Cat on April 21, 2003, at 13:04:12
> Here's a website that has many different fascinating articles on mineral transport.
Good information. Thanks for the link.
> I'm already starting to feel edgy and tweaky from my standard lithium carbonate withdrawal.Barb, why did you let yourself run out of lithium carbonate before your shipment of lithium orotate arrives? You know as well as I do that some research shows it can be risky to discontinue lithium because, in some cases, the lithium does not seem to work as well second time around.
-- Ron
Posted by Janelle on April 21, 2003, at 21:38:55
In reply to Orotates » dingbat, posted by Barbara Cat on April 21, 2003, at 13:04:12
BarbaraCat -
I must admit, I really have no clue what my TSH is, for some reason 7 popped into my mind, but it could well be lower - I don't have access to my most recent thyroid test, but I will get ahold of it and check. I hope and pray it's not 7, and is LOWER but not too low. I do know that it is within the normal range - and this is the standard range, not that wacko doctor's narrow range. I dumped him months ago.
Posted by dingbat on April 21, 2003, at 23:32:48
In reply to Orotates » dingbat, posted by Barbara Cat on April 21, 2003, at 13:04:12
Thanks for posting Barbara Cat - you mentioned that you had found info on other orotates and mentioned magnesium. There's been a lot posted of late about the benefits of magnesium for depression, anxiety, etc. Do you have any particular info on magnesium orotate products or website addresses?
Thanx
Dingbat
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 22, 2003, at 1:59:23
In reply to Re: Orotates and Supplements Link » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 20:04:33
Thanks for your concern, Ron. It's a weird tale. When we were gone recently for 2 weeks finishing up my late Mom's estate stuff we had a cat sitter. I figured she'd find out I was taking lithium (humans snoop, we do), would think I was dangerous and would not sit for our cats again. So I hid a few bottles of meds in a 'safe place'. So safe that I can't remember where I hid them. My first real taste of a genuine senior moment. I had a few on hand, ordered some more and want to try the orotate version. I'm feeling a little edgy and crabby, but OK. I think the nortriptyline is saving my bipolar butt, if indeed I am really bipolar. Now I have to go make nice to my husband whose head I almost bit off earlier. It's not just lack of lithium. Sometimes he really is a jerk.
> Barb, why did you let yourself run out of lithium carbonate before your shipment of lithium orotate arrives? You know as well as I do that some research shows it can be risky to discontinue lithium because, in some cases, the lithium does not seem to work as well second time around.
>
> -- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 22, 2003, at 2:06:05
In reply to More about MAGNESIUM OROTATE?, posted by dingbat on April 21, 2003, at 23:32:48
There was some mention of Mg orotate at the www.lifelink.net address and a few other sites, and also about magnesium aspartate. It seems that these various mineral transports target different cellular points of access and act a little differently depending on the means of transport. Probably the best thing would be to do a Google search on it. Let us know what you find.
> Thanks for posting Barbara Cat - you mentioned that you had found info on other orotates and mentioned magnesium. There's been a lot posted of late about the benefits of magnesium for depression, anxiety, etc. Do you have any particular info on magnesium orotate products or website addresses?
> Thanx
> Dingbat
Posted by noa on April 22, 2003, at 7:39:59
In reply to TSH » Barbara Cat, posted by Janelle on April 21, 2003, at 21:38:55
Janelle, do get the lab results. Let us know. "Within Normal Limits" is not alwasys normal for everyone.
Posted by Barbara Cat on April 22, 2003, at 11:16:11
In reply to Re: TSH, posted by noa on April 22, 2003, at 7:39:59
I haven't tried this one myself but plan to. You get a bottle of liquid iodine from a pharmacy. Get a Q-tip and paint a 1" square on an inner thigh. If the iodine is significantly absorbed, i.e., brown color turns much lighter, then body doesn't have enough metabolically active iodine which is needed to make thyroxine. If this is the case, paint different areas of inner thighs, inner upper arm areas each 24 hours until iodine stays the same color indicating that enough has been absorbed. I read this in a few alternative medicine sources and perhaps higher blood levels of iodine might not be the whole picture, but it would be interesting, eh?
This is the end of the thread.
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