![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 76 to 100 of 205. Go back in thread:
Posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
In reply to Thank you Ron Hill, posted by kara lynne on April 1, 2003, at 14:12:46
[Kara Lynne to Ron Hill]
> I'd like to thank you for your honest feedback. It's important for me to have a balanced viewpoint of something, especially because I rarely get these miraculous responses and expecting one leads to an inevitable letdown. You don't deny its benefits, but don't promise profound results either. Thanks for reporting.
I agree that expectations can easily lead to letdowns and personally I don't trust anyone's promises about anything.
When I read George Eby's site, I was cautiously somewhat hopeful enough to rouse myself out of my depressive paralysis to take the steps necessary to give it a try BECAUSE when I evaluated my life in terms of the information he presented I could see how it might pertain.
I checked my multi-vit/min and saw that I was taking a not-very-absorbable form of magnesium. I looked at the list of magnesium rich foods and saw I wasn't eating them at all OR I was craving them -- such as peanuts. Then I looked at the list of calcium rich foods as well as the list of foods where the amount of calcium exceeds the amount of magnesium and roughly evaluated just how much calcium I was getting in my diet -- a LOT. I had also had a calcium kidney stone in the past.
Considering more of his information and the rest of my diet, I was drinking multiple cans of aspartame sweetened, caffeinated cola's each day (to stay awake on Zoloft). I was eating plenty of processed foods with glutamates.
Looking at my past, I could identify the times in my life when I was least depressed and they coincided with "healthy eating" times characterized by eating magnesium rich foods such as wheat germ and much less calcium than in my recent diet. I noted too that my past good times and "better times" were very specifically undone by stress, despite my best efforts to remain positive.
So, I tried it and yes, it's been miraculous. Obviously, if one is already getting magnesium in adequate amounts in one's diet, then taking more will not be miraculous.
But for me magnesium is not the end of the story. When I read the books I've mentioned earlier, "Depression Free Naturally", "The Cortisol Connection", "Your Miracle Brain"as well as numerous websites, I realized that the information is out there for me to learn and utilize so that I need not fear becoming depressed again.
The most meaningful psychological book I've read on depression was Richard O'Connor's "Undoing Depression". He has a another book called "Active Treatment of Depression" that's written for professionals also, that people on Amazon say is even better. I ordered it from the library, but by the time I received it I was no longer depressed so I didn't read it. :)
In Undoing Depression, O'Connor, himself a depressive (and psychotherapist) said something I really didn't like hearing but felt I had to face -- that as depressives we get good at doing depression. I began to try to will myself to follow all of his advice. When I was no longer depressed several days after magnesium supplementation, I was elated, incredulous and then I also felt like a fool. This thing that had dominated my life so profoundly as to ruin it, this thing that had so significantly defined me for so many years, this thing that had estranged me from people and meaning in life, this thing that seemed so hideously meaningful in itself, this thing that using all my previous best efforts to "undo" -- had just gone "poof".
When I read George Eby's site the first time, my teeth were grinding and my hackles rose every time he said "Depression is not a disease". "Outrageous", I thought, "He obviously doesn't understand." Now I am the one who understands. And I would say to Richard O'Connor that the BEST and certainly easiest way to undo depression is to change/undo the brain chemistry that CAUSED it.
Of course, magnesium is not the answer for everyone, but perhaps another natural remedy IS. Neurotransmitters in the brain come from required nutrients -- they are created by what we eat/don't eat, drink/don't drink, or in some other way do or take into our bodies (sunlight, excercise, supplements, etc.).
In years past, I had tried St. John's Wort, SAM-e, folic acid, amino acids like tyrosine (which gave me the same negative reaction as Wellbutrin) and anything else I heard about. But I didn't have the benefit when trying those things of what more recent research and certain practitioner's experience have now contributed to the whole picture.
I am convinced today that whether I am depressed or not is entirely my responsibility -- not in terms of what I need to "work on" with "issues" or self-defeating modes of thought and behavior or anything at all psychological. (I think the many tools one learns from good therapy are invaluable, btw, but in my case it's "been there, done that" -- for years.) I believe now that my responsibility to myself regarding depression is entirely dependent on the choices I make about my physical health. That simple.
And with that, I am leaving this board. Richard O'Connor also said that "The opposite of depression is not happiness, it's vitality." I wish all of you freedom from whatever pains you and holds you back from vitality and the life of your dreams. :) JL, jlwest@operamail.com
Posted by Ron Hill on April 2, 2003, at 12:19:24
In reply to Re: Magnesium - final thoughts and best wishes, posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
Hi JLx,
> And with that, I am leaving this board.
Why not stick around and help others now and then as time allows?
-- Ron
Posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 13:33:59
In reply to Re: Magnesium - final thoughts and best wishes, posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
Hi Jlx,
I appreciate your information regarding magnesium; I don't mean to diminish the miracle it has been for you--I believe it has been. I just found Ron's post helpful to the way I take in information. I'm happy you have found a way out of depression; I hope I do too.
Posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:16:22
In reply to Re: Magnesium - final thoughts and best wishes, posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
Last night at bedtime, I took a 250 mg. tab of what I bought a week or two ago before reading all the posts. I had the shallowest sleep I've ever had. It was weird and awful.
Here's what the stuff has in it: Magnesium (as magnesium oxide), Microcrystalline cellulose, croscarmellose sodium, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, stearic acid, titanium dioxide, magnesium stearate, hydroxypropyl cellulose, ethylcellulose, povidone, polyethylene glycol, and carnuba wax.
What the hell are all those things? Poison?
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:24:32
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » JLx, posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:16:22
> Last night at bedtime, I took a 250 mg. tab of what I bought a week or two ago before reading all the posts. I had the shallowest sleep I've ever had. It was weird and awful.
That sucks. I'm sorry to hear that.
> Here's what the stuff has in it: Magnesium (as magnesium oxide), Microcrystalline cellulose, croscarmellose sodium, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, stearic acid, titanium dioxide, magnesium stearate, hydroxypropyl cellulose, ethylcellulose, povidone, polyethylene glycol, and carnuba wax.
>
> What the hell are all those things? Poison?Magnesium oxide is very poorly absorbed, compared to other magnesium compounds. It doesn't even qualify as a salt of magnesium. All the other things are binders, with the exception of the titanium dioxide, which is one of the whitest pigments known.
Lar
Posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:43:31
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:24:32
Yes, I knew about the pigment. It's why red takes a billion coats--it has no titanium to make it opaque.
I should go to the health food store and get citrate or glycinate, shouldn't I? And I shouldn't take this again, eh?
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:54:11
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:43:31
> Yes, I knew about the pigment. It's why red takes a billion coats--it has no titanium to make it opaque.
Is that a paint reference???? <spock eyebrow>
> I should go to the health food store and get citrate or glycinate, shouldn't I?
Milk of magnesia (magnesium hydroxide) will do, too. Epsom salts (mag sulphate), the citrate. There are lots of options.
> And I shouldn't take this again, eh?
Unfortunately, a single trial doesn't tell you anything, conclusively. You might have been going to have a bad night for other reasons. You might find that you do better with it in the morning, because of your unique make-up. You are special, ya know.
Posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 17:31:20
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:54:11
> Is that a paint reference???? <spock eyebrow>Uh, yes. <bones eyeroll>
> Milk of magnesia (magnesium hydroxide) will do, too. Epsom salts (mag sulphate), the citrate. There are lots of options.
I think I'll look for the pill form.
> > And I shouldn't take this again, eh?
>
> Unfortunately, a single trial doesn't tell you anything, conclusively. You might have been going to have a bad night for other reasons. You might find that you do better with it in the morning, because of your unique make-up. You are special, ya know.Well, I'm taking it for insomnia. I meant that I shouldn't take the concoction I bought again tonight. Or should I--just for one final night, since I already have it?
beardy : )>
Posted by Caleb462 on April 3, 2003, at 22:28:58
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
You said magnesium hydroxide works too, yet on that guy's site (can't remember his name), he says magnesium hydroxide has poor bioavailability and has no known use other than as a laxative. So what's up?
Posted by johnj on April 3, 2003, at 22:36:55
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:54:11
Hi Larry,
Well I had a great 9 day run with Mg. I think I may have screwed things up just being so happy not to be down anymore. I have had problems working out in the past but I thought the Mg cured that. Last Friday I went to tai chi, then spent Saturday and Sunday outside working. I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping. I wonder what weightlifting does to the brain chemistry? Any idea on what type of doctor could help me with this? We have a university med center close by with an alternative medicine division too.
Took 600 mg on Tuesday and felt pretty good on Wednesday and went to Yoga, but Thursday was ok. I wonder if the Mg I took tipped the balance back somehow. Or maybe all that excercise had a cumulative effect? I will not work out at all for a few days and see what happens. Could it be that cortisol is released when I work out and I am not coming down? I have heard working out raises cortisol and then I have heard working out combats depression and anxiety. Man, is this confusing. I did realize I get my RDA of calcium pretty much in the morning with yogurt, bran, oatmeal and calcium orange juice. I am a little afraid of cutting my milk. Do you see any concerns? I was a big milk drinker, about 2 gallons a week. Again, I read calcium is calming, but Eby's article paints it in a different light. MORE confusion.How do I know how much elemental Mg I am getting? I am thinking of trying the Mg glycinate and malate but the latter is harder to find. Do I need to add boron?
I really had 9 days of bliss. Just living and not worrying about anything. It made me realize that this is biochemical related and can be fixed. Just finding a way of fixing it on a regular basis is the goal. I really want to lower my benzo dose as I feel it makes my thinking sluggish. Maybe I just tried to cram a lost 2 years in that week afraid it would end. One thing I do know is that is wasn't mere placebo. No problems with taking the Mg, almost as constipated as always. Don't know if I need more or less Mg?? What was the most happiness I had those 9 days? Being able to stop myself from snapping at my wife, I was able to say "that's no big deal".
Thanks for listenting Larry. Hope all is well. Let me know how any new supplements are doing with you.
Posted by beardedlady on April 4, 2003, at 5:37:22
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on April 3, 2003, at 22:36:55
I know this post wasn't for me, but I just wanted to respond and couldn't stop myself.
>Last Friday I went to tai chi, then spent Saturday and Sunday outside working. I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping. I wonder what weightlifting does to the brain chemistry?Why does that have to be attributed to anything? It's one night! We all have an unexplained bad night of sleep now and again. Everyone does!
>Any idea on what type of doctor could help me with this? We have a university med center close by with an alternative medicine division too.
> Took 600 mg on Tuesday and felt pretty good on Wednesday and went to Yoga, but Thursday was ok. I wonder if the Mg I took tipped the balance back somehow.Why? What do you mean tipped the balance back? Couldn't it just have been working all this time? And couldn't exercise be the real reason you're feeling better? Or couldn't they be working in concert?
>Or maybe all that excercise had a cumulative effect? I will not work out at all for a few days and see what happens.
Well of course it does!
> Could it be that cortisol is released when I work out and I am not coming down? I have heard working out raises cortisol and then I have heard working out combats depression and anxiety.
I believe cortisol is a stress hormone. You don't usually release it while exercising (I don't think you do anyway) unless you're stressed out about something.
>Man, is this confusing. I did realize I get my RDA of calcium pretty much in the morning with yogurt, bran, oatmeal and calcium orange juice. I am a little afraid of cutting my milk. Do you see any concerns? I was a big milk drinker, about 2 gallons a week. Again, I read calcium is calming, but Eby's article paints it in a different light. MORE confusion.
Every body is different. Don't expect Eby's exact vitamin cocktail to work for you. It sounds like you are getting exactly the results you want, so why don't you give it a little bit of time before you adjust anything?
beardy : )>
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 9:43:09
In reply to Larry, Re: Magnesium Hydroxide, posted by Caleb462 on April 3, 2003, at 22:28:58
> You said magnesium hydroxide works too, yet on that guy's site (can't remember his name), he says magnesium hydroxide has poor bioavailability and has no known use other than as a laxative. So what's up?
I'm thinking purely as a chemist when I say that; it has lower bioavailabity than other salts, but it's got to be better than magnesium oxide.
Mag hydroxide is marketed as an antacid. For that to work, the hydroxide has to be labile (easily moved). The reaction is:
2HCl + Mg(OH)2 --> 2H2O + Mg(Cl)2
The laxative part is due to the fact that both Mg(OH)2 and Mg++ ions are hygroscopic; they draw water to themselves. Now Mg(OH)2 does that very poorly, relative to Mg++ (Mag hydroxide is milk of magnesia, which is milky because it's not a solution. It's a suspension.), making me think that the laxative effect is due to Mg++, which is bioavailable. A lot of people already have milk of magnesia in the house. I suggested it so people don't run around buying expensive supplements if they've got another option available to them.
That's my rationale. I can't find anything in the literature that either supports or refutes my logic.Lar
Posted by johnj on April 4, 2003, at 9:43:17
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » johnj, posted by beardedlady on April 4, 2003, at 5:37:22
>Last Friday I went to tai chi, then spent Saturday and Sunday outside working. I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping. I wonder what weightlifting does to the brain chemistry?
<Why does that have to be attributed to anything? It's one night! We all have an unexplained bad night of sleep now and again. Everyone does!>
Because this has been my pattern for almost 2 years, of which I have stated many times. I excercise, feel ok, but sleep like crap. This time was unique in that I had several days where I physically exerted myself, but slept fine, actually felt like it used to when I would work out and sleep better not worse. This coincided with starting magnesium.
>Any idea on what type of doctor could help me with this? We have a university med center close by with an alternative medicine division too.
> Took 600 mg on Tuesday and felt pretty good on Wednesday and went to Yoga, but Thursday was ok. I wonder if the Mg I took tipped the balance back somehow.<Why? What do you mean tipped the balance back? Couldn't it just have been working all this time? And couldn't exercise be the real reason you're feeling better? Or couldn't they be working in concert?>
See my first response, as in excercise tipping the balance back to before I started Mg. Meaning does the excercise deplete Mg much quicker? They couldn't have been working in concert because the physical exertion didn't start until after I felt better taking Mg.
>Or maybe all that excercise had a cumulative effect? I will not work out at all for a few days and see what happens.
<Well of course it does!>
No, it may not always, if a person's body is recovering. Usually the cumulative effect of excercise is good. My point was what is going on with me that seems to make excercise detrimental to me now?
> Could it be that cortisol is released when I work out and I am not coming down? I have heard working out raises cortisol and then I have heard working out combats depression and anxiety.
<I believe cortisol is a stress hormone. You don't usually release it while exercising (I don't think you do anyway) unless you're stressed out about something.>
Is not excercise a stress on the human body too? Like I said I have seen conflicting information regarding this. I am trying to figure out, from someone like Larry who knows this in more detail, if this is possible in the sense is my body just not combating the cortisol release and what acutally combats this?
>Man, is this confusing. I did realize I get my RDA of calcium pretty much in the morning with yogurt, bran, oatmeal and calcium orange juice. I am a little afraid of cutting my milk. Do you see any concerns? I was a big milk drinker, about 2 gallons a week. Again, I read calcium is calming, but Eby's article paints it in a different light. MORE confusion.
<Every body is different. Don't expect Eby's exact vitamin cocktail to work for you. It sounds like you are getting exactly the results you want, so why don't you give it a little bit of time before you adjust anything?>
I know we are all different and that is why I am asking certain questions. I know this is trial and error, I have been at it for 10 years. The thing I am most confused about is that Eby's website pretty much says Mg and high doses is not a problem and calcium actually caused depression. I have read, just like we all hear about warm milk, it is not all that bad and calcium even relaxes ones nerves. That is why I am more confused right now.
I really didn't appreciate the scolding tone and the use of "!" after every response. I didn't feel your response was supportive. Maybe I am ultrasensitive right now and I apologize if that wasn't your intention since this has been a very defeating week, but I am just trying to make sense of what has happened afterr my brief, but almost perfect 9 days. Something right was happening and then I excercised, maybe too much, and right back down. Maybe I just need a break from the board. Maybe searching for something that is impossible is just a waste of my time. I am just tired of trying. Maybe it is time to just accept depression is the natural state of my brain.
beardy : )>
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 9:46:13
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » johnj, posted by beardedlady on April 4, 2003, at 5:37:22
>> I believe cortisol is a stress hormone. You don't usually release it while exercising (I don't think you do anyway) unless you're stressed out about something.
In fact, I believe exercise helps to reduce cortisol. Our stress response is designed for dealing with acute, immediate survival situations. Cortisol and adrenaline help make available immediate energy for running for your life. Of course, we have more chronic stressors, and our biological stress response system isn't well suited for that. That is why regular exercise is recommended to help manage our stress. See Robert Sapolsky,PhD., "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers".
>
Posted by jemma on April 4, 2003, at 11:22:21
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 9:46:13
Actually, vigorous exercise increases cortisol in the short term because it puts stress on the body - but not all stress is bad for you. In the long term, exercise helps the body (and mind) to withstand stress, lowering overall cortisol levels.
I went to Mr. Eby's site and I find some things there that concern me. I supplement with magnesium and believe that most of us don't get enough of it. Certainly it helps with sleep, muscle aches, and anxiety. But calcium is even more essential - without enough of it, our bones start to break. I have osteopenia from calcium deficiency, and believe me I'd prefer magnesium deficiency. Calcium also helps with anxiety and sleep. And as a lifelong depressive, I'm walking proof that depression is not caused by too much calcium.
The important thing is to keep the body's vitamins and minerals amply supplied and in balance. I'd be very skeptical of pinning my hopes on any one supplement for a miraculous cure. And it's very easy to bring on deficiency states in one vitamin or mineral by taking megadoses of another. Even vitamin C, though safe in megadoses, has been shown to induce deficiency symptoms in people who suddenly stop megadosing.
- jemma
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 11:35:46
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 9:46:13
> >> I believe cortisol is a stress hormone. You don't usually release it while exercising (I don't think you do anyway) unless you're stressed out about something.
>
> In fact, I believe exercise helps to reduce cortisol. Our stress response is designed for dealing with acute, immediate survival situations. Cortisol and adrenaline help make available immediate energy for running for your life. Of course, we have more chronic stressors, and our biological stress response system isn't well suited for that. That is why regular exercise is recommended to help manage our stress. See Robert Sapolsky,PhD., "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers".
> >I'll just jump in here, and try to address some of the ideas in on message.
John: My simple advice is to go gently. Don't push for results (from exercise). Overexertion will undo the effect of the magnesium. Focus on exertion vs. over-exertion. I wonder if you have something akin to chronic fatigue syndrome, characterized by an exaggerated rebound fatigue following exertion. The only management technique that works is monitoring exertion levels, and limiting over-exertion (truly only assessed in hindsight). In other words, you need to practice assessing your exertion level, and calling it quits *before* you're exhausted.
With respect to cortisol release and exercise. All exercise increases cortisol release. Exercise is used as an experimentally-controlled variable to induce cortisol release, both in man, and laboratory animals. This is an acute response. Stress reduction from exercise is more likely mediated by other hormones released during exertion. These other hormones help to balance out the body's response to cortisol. IMHO, it's the lack of balancing hormones which makes for the cortisol/stress correlation.
Lar
Posted by disney4 on April 4, 2003, at 11:40:49
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by jemma on April 4, 2003, at 11:22:21
Hi Larry,
Could you help me to interpret this article on glycine? I am considering switching to the magnesium glycinate from the magnesium l-lactate (mag-tab slow release) for added help with bipolar disorder and medication withdrawl induced benign myoclonic jerks.
GLYCINE: SYNTHESIS AND UPTAKE
Glycine is the major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brainstem and spinal cord, where it participates in a variety of motor and sensory functions. Glycine is also present in the forebrain, where it has recently been shown to function as a coagonist at the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) subtype of glutamate receptor. In the latter, context glycine promotes the actions of glutamate, the major excitatory neurotransmitter (for a discussion of glycine's role as a coagonist of the NMDA receptor, see Excitatory Amino Acid Neurotransmission). Thus, glycine subserves both inhibitory and excitatory functions within the CNS.Glycine is formed from serine by the enzyme serine hydroxymethyltransferase (SHMT). Glycine, like GABA, is released from nerve endings in a Ca2+-dependent fashion. The actions of glycine are terminated primarily by reuptake via Na+/Cl--dependent, high-affinity glycine transporters. The specific uptake of glycine has been demonstrated in the brainstem and spinal cord in regions where there are also high densities of inhibitory glycine receptors.
Recently, two glycine transporters have been cloned and shown to be expressed in the CNS as well as in various peripheral tissues (11, 19). These glycine transporters are members of the large family of Na+/Cl--dependent neurotransmitter transporters, and both share approximately 50% sequence identity with the GABA transporters discussed above. The deduced amino acid sequence of both cDNAs predicts the typical 12 transmembrane domains characteristic of these transporters. The two glycine cloned transporters have been named GLYT-1 and GLYT-2 in the order that they were reported (11). These transporter cDNAs are transcribed from the same gene and are quite similar in their 3¢ nucleotide sequences. They differ in their 5¢ noncoding regions as well as in the first 44 nucleotides of their coding sequence. Expression of GLYT-1 and GLYT-2 yield transporters with similar kinetic and pharmacological properties. Interestingly, however, the distribution of GLYT-1 and GLYT-2 transcripts measured by in situ hybridization are different. GLYT-1 mRNA also closely parallels the distribution of the glycine receptor. These data suggest that GLYT-1 is primarily a glial glycine transporter whereas GLYT-2 is primarily a neuronal transporter. The mapping of both glycine transporter mRNAs, as well as the glycine receptor subunit mRNAs, confirm the importance of this neurotransmitter in the brainstem and spinal cord, but support a more widespread distribution in supraspinal brain regions than was previously suspected.
Posted by JLx on April 4, 2003, at 11:42:33
In reply to Re: Magnesium - final thoughts and best wishes » JLx, posted by Ron Hill on April 2, 2003, at 12:19:24
> Hi JLx,
>
> > And with that, I am leaving this board.
>
> Why not stick around and help others now and then as time allows?
>
> -- RonHi Ron,
Well, I thought that I had said all I have to say, but it seems I am still learning more so here I am back again. :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 12:01:28
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by jemma on April 4, 2003, at 11:22:21
>I have osteopenia from calcium deficiency, and believe me I'd prefer magnesium deficiency. Calcium also helps with anxiety and sleep. And as a lifelong depressive, I'm walking proof that depression is not caused by too much calcium.
There are two simultaneous and opposing processes occurring in bone tissue, mineral deposition by osteoblasts, and mineral dissolution by osteoclasts. If you're magnesium deficient, you're going to get an increase in osteoclast activity, as the biggest and most accessible store of magnesium in the body is bone. This leads to osteopenia and osteoporosis, even in the presence of adequate dietary calcium. This is identifiable by high blood calcium levels despite evidence of bone porosity. Unfortunately, the high blood calcium levels shut down the active uptake of both calcium and magnesium, exacerbating the magnesium deficiency. One of the leading causes of magnesium deficiency is.....magnesium deficiency.
I'm not suggesting you're wrong, or anything like that. It's just that bone calcium loss has to be assessed in the context of a number of other parameters. Dietary calcium intake is just one variable to consider.
Posted by jemma on April 4, 2003, at 12:21:54
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 12:01:28
> >I have osteopenia from calcium deficiency, and believe me I'd prefer magnesium deficiency. Calcium also helps with anxiety and sleep. And as a lifelong depressive, I'm walking proof that depression is not caused by too much calcium.
>
> There are two simultaneous and opposing processes occurring in bone tissue, mineral deposition by osteoblasts, and mineral dissolution by osteoclasts. If you're magnesium deficient, you're going to get an increase in osteoclast activity, as the biggest and most accessible store of magnesium in the body is bone. This leads to osteopenia and osteoporosis, even in the presence of adequate dietary calcium. This is identifiable by high blood calcium levels despite evidence of bone porosity. Unfortunately, the high blood calcium levels shut down the active uptake of both calcium and magnesium, exacerbating the magnesium deficiency. One of the leading causes of magnesium deficiency is.....magnesium deficiency.
>
> I'm not suggesting you're wrong, or anything like that. It's just that bone calcium loss has to be assessed in the context of a number of other parameters. Dietary calcium intake is just one variable to consider.
>Hi Larry -
Actually, in my case, I was deficient in calcium, due to hypercalcuria caused by my undiagnosed ndi. I supplement with both calcium and magnesium now, but in balance. My post was in reaction to the Eby site which seems to me excessively anti-calcium.
- jemma
Posted by beardedlady on April 4, 2003, at 12:40:42
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » beardedlady, posted by johnj on April 4, 2003, at 9:43:17
I'm sorry, John. I wasn't scolding.
You sounded like you were doing very well. You had one night when you didn't sleep so well, and then you were better again. I was merely pointing out that it's okay to have a bad night surrounded by good ones and to leave your particular cocktail alone and give it time to assess it.
My exclamation marks stand for enthusiasm, not scolding. I'm sorry you took it that way. I'm also sorry I posted. I shouldn't have.
I just see this tendency to overanalyze (and yes, I think it's overanalysis, not simply analysis) everything and to be impatient because we have wasted so much time already. We dwell on every twitch and zing, trying to pin the blame on our med or yesterday's toast. Most of the time it seems to be just our bodies behaving the way bodies do.
I just wanted to encourage you to relax and give it some time because you seemed to be doing so well.
I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings.
beardy
Posted by Ron Hill on April 4, 2003, at 13:11:09
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on April 3, 2003, at 22:36:55
John,
> I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping.
Please give me a little more detail regarding your sleep problems. Do you have trouble falling asleep when you first lie down or do you fall asleep initially but then wake up in the middle of the night and can't go back to sleep?
When you're having trouble getting to sleep, is your body tired but your brain is going full steam? In other words, do you lay in bed ruminating thoughts over-and-over in you mind?
When you finally get to sleep, do you sleep soundly or do you merely doze near the edge of consciousness?
For what its worth, increases in the intensity of my exercise program causes sleep problems for me until I become accustom to the higher level of activity. In my case, I have always attributed this to an increase in endorphins which (according to my theory) causes some hypomania. But this is just my layman's explanation that I use to make sense out of my world. It comes in handy while I am laying sleepless in my bed becoming more angry by the minute ruminating about the fact that my inability to get to sleep is going to make me very unproductive and uncomfortable the next day.
If I had not been lifting weights on a regular basis, and then lifted at 6 pm, it’s almost guaranteed that I would have a difficult time getting to sleep. I have to ramp up my exercise program gradually and consistently over an extended period of time.
John, I know your situation is more complicated than the one I've described, but it may have some applicability. I have a hunch that ATP is involved either directly or indirectly in your exercise related problems.
-- Ron
Posted by JLx on April 4, 2003, at 13:48:15
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on April 3, 2003, at 22:36:55
Hi Johnj,
> Well I had a great 9 day run with Mg. I think I may have screwed things up just being so happy not to be down anymore.I know how tempting it is to think that way, but I think it's wrong. Why should happiness screw up anything?
>I have had problems working out in the past but I thought the Mg cured that.
What I've found to be true after magnesium was the answer to depression is that to STAY in a good place, I have to pay attention to many other factors. Making sure I'm not too acidified by my high protein/low carb diet is the latest. I was feeling "less well" a couple days and when I looked back trying to determine what was what and did some more nutrition reading, I recalled I was drinking lemon juice in water and cinammon tea (both alkalizing) before. So I made myself some vegetable broth (yuck!) and have been drinking both lemon juice in water, apple cider vinegar and cinammon tea throughout the day and it's worked. Or maybe it was also the potassium in those foods that helped. Can you tell if there's anything else besides the added exercise you've been doing differently just recently? How about glutamates in your diet? That was a previous bugaboo for me.
>I wonder what weightlifting does to the brain chemistry?
Here's an article about cortisol, DHEA and exercise. MAKING YOUR HORMONES WORK FOR YOU IN ACHIEVING YOUR FITNESS GOALS http://www.drdebe.com/fitness.htm
Another similar: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3532/adrenalarticlegolan.htm
"Excess cortisol without the protective effects of adequate DHEA levels becomes destructive. Protein synthesis is inhibited and protein breakdown occurs. Numerous dysfunctions can occur in:
The nervous system: poor memory, poor concentration, cognitive disturbance, sleep disturbance, irritability and sometimes depression."
>Any idea on what type of doctor could help me with this? We have a university med center close by with an alternative medicine division too.
There should be someone there, I would hope, otherwise orthomolecular medicine practitioners, naturopaths, nutritionists, or even some more mainstream physicians who advertise a "holistic" approach might be able to help. Here's the "Find a Practitioner" page from WholeHealthMD. http://whmdpraclookup.wholehealthpro.com/startform.asp?Session_ID=General Here's one on orthomolecular centers: http://www.orthomed.org/links/centres.htm There are search pages on other health sites.
>I will not work out at all for a few days and see what happens.
Isn't the conventional wisdom for weight lifting every other day as a rule?
>Again, I read calcium is calming, but Eby's article paints it in a different light.
I think he's right with calcium=excitotoxin but the key word is "excessive", though determiing how much is excessive for each one of us may be another story. Article on excitotoxins: http://smart-drugs.net/ias-excitotoxins.htm Brief comment from USC Neurosurgery Dep't http://uscneurosurgery.com/glossary/n/excitatory%20neurotransmitter%20excitotoxin.htm:
"Excitatory neurotransmitters normally stimulate the release of calcium which in normal concentrations, is necessary for normal enzymatic and metabolic activities within neurons. Excessive excitatory neurotransmitter release stimulates excessive calcium release. Abnormally high concentrations of calcium cause increased activity of enzymes and metabolic processes that destroy structural and functional proteins that can lead to cell death."
Dr. Blaylock, who wrote the book "Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills" is a neurosurgeon. I haven't read his book yet. Had you been ingesting aspartame, MSG, or other forms of glutamates the night you couldn't sleep?
> How do I know how much elemental Mg I am getting? I am thinking of trying the Mg glycinate and malate but the latter is harder to find.
I just ordered Carlson's magnesium glycinate from The Vitamin Shoppe, as they have the best price I've seen so far.
Although I have had some days where I too was worried that my new "cure" was going to be short-lived, now after nearly 6 weeks I feel much more confident that I can determine what I need to do differently to keep feeling good. Hang in there. :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 15:05:05
In reply to Re: Magnesium » Larry Hoover, posted by jemma on April 4, 2003, at 12:21:54
> Hi Larry -
>
> Actually, in my case, I was deficient in calcium, due to hypercalcuria caused by my undiagnosed ndi. I supplement with both calcium and magnesium now, but in balance. My post was in reaction to the Eby site which seems to me excessively anti-calcium.
>
> - jemmaDoh! Sorry, I forgot about your special circumstances. I responded "generically".
Sometimes, when the science gets complicated, Eby and others will attempt to simplify things. What's lost in the process can be meaningful and important. I agree that making calcium a villain in depression is conditional.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 15:15:19
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone Larry Hoover, posted by disney4 on April 4, 2003, at 11:40:49
> Hi Larry,
>
> Could you help me to interpret this article on glycine?Frankly, I don't think that article really offers much useful information. Maybe the following abstract is more to the point?
J Clin Psychopharmacol 1999 Dec;19(6):506-12
Beneficial effects of glycine (bioglycin) on memory and attention in young and middle-aged adults.
File SE, Fluck E, Fernandes C.
Psychopharmacology Research Unit, United Medical and Dental Schools of Guy's and St Thomas' Hospitals, Guy's Hospital, London, United Kingdom. sandra.file@kcl.ac.uk
The N-methyl D-aspartate receptor complex is involved in the mechanism of long-term potentiation, which is thought to be the biological basis of learning and memory. This complex can be manipulated in a number of ways, one of which is through the strychnine-insensitive glycine receptor coagonist site. The effects of Bioglycin(Konapharma, Pratteln, Switzerland), a biologically active form of the amino acid glycine, were therefore studied in healthy students (mean age, 20.7 years) and middle-aged men (mean age, 58.9 years) with tests that measured attention, memory and mood, using a double-blind, randomized, crossover design. Compared with the young group, the middle-aged group had significantly poorer verbal episodic memory, focused, divided, and sustained attention; they also differed in their subjective responses at the end of testing. Bioglycin significantly improved retrieval from episodic memory in both the young and the middle-aged groups, but it did not affect focused or divided attention. However, the middle-aged men significantly benefited from Bioglycin in the sustained-attention task. The effects of Bioglycin differed from those of other cognitive enhancers in that it was without stimulant properties or significant effects on mood, and it primarily improved memory rather than attention. It is likely to be of benefit in young or older people in situations where high retrieval of information is needed or when performance is impaired by jet lag, shift work, or disrupted sleep. It may also benefit the impaired retrieval shown in patients with schizophrenia, Parkinson's disease, and Huntington's disease.
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