![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by catmint on March 6, 2003, at 14:11:01
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs?, posted by David Smith on March 6, 2003, at 0:40:31
David,
Thank you very much for your post. I especially enjoyed the power2you website and have bookmarked it.
As for the Eli Lilly provisions, that doesn't suprise me; I became wary of them when I found out that George Bush Sr. was on their board of directors.
If you don't mind me asking what were the drugs that caused the brain tumors?
Hope you are doing well and would enjoy hearing from you again.
Occasionally non-compliant,
::Amy
Posted by catmint on March 6, 2003, at 14:15:29
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » catmint, posted by Ritch on March 6, 2003, at 10:11:02
Mitch,
Thank you for your post. I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.
Are you still at 250 mg. of Depakote? What is it that you take with it again for depression?
Take care,
::Amy
Posted by catmint on March 6, 2003, at 14:25:30
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » catmint, posted by Ron Hill on March 6, 2003, at 12:02:13
Hi Ron,
I'm really happy for you that the NADH is still working. In my experience with natural medicine, the effectiveness will remain if you occasionally stop taking it for a few days every now and then. This is medicinal herbology advice and I'm not certain it would work with medicine that affects neurotransmitters. Just a hunch.
I think the Euros are lucky to have a more progressive health care system. In Britain for example (Colin you might chime in), medicinal herbologist practice like MDs here in the states.Hope to keep hearing from you,
::Amy
Posted by Ron Hill on March 6, 2003, at 14:30:12
In reply to Ron Hill- What a great post! Thanks. (nm), posted by David Smith on March 6, 2003, at 12:19:33
Posted by Ron Hill on March 6, 2003, at 14:48:11
In reply to Ronald......, posted by colin wallace on March 6, 2003, at 13:47:46
Colin,
> I don't think I've come across anyone else who is literally transformed from normal to a half-crazed,deeply depressed hypomanic state when exposed to two or three days of foul, low rolling grey cloud and rain.
Why not pack up your stuff and come visit me? I live in the southwestern corner of Idaho (US state) and we get lots of sunshine, although it typically gets a little cloudy during the fall. If you come, bring you mountain bike and your road bike. I could use a good training partner.
If travel is not practical, have you investigated the possible efficacy of a light box?
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on March 6, 2003, at 14:54:16
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » Ron Hill, posted by catmint on March 6, 2003, at 14:25:30
Amy,
>In my experience with natural medicine, the effectiveness will remain if you occasionally stop taking it for a few days every now and then.
Yeah, I think you're right. I'll keep this in the back of my mind regarding my current supplement. Thanks.
-- Ron
Posted by Ritch on March 6, 2003, at 22:40:22
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » Ritch, posted by catmint on March 6, 2003, at 14:15:29
> Mitch,
> Thank you for your post. I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.
> Are you still at 250 mg. of Depakote? What is it that you take with it again for depression?
> Take care,
> ::AmyHi Amy,
Yes 250mg of Dep. seems to be the "spot". 500mg caused a lot of sleepiness and weight gain. 125mg doesn't work. Maybe 375mg? I've got scripts for 125mg and 250mg in case I need to boost it or reduce it. I'm also taking just .5mg of Klonopin at night and that doesn't seem to aggravate depression and I haven't had ONE panic attack while on that dosage (came close though a few times-whew!). OK.... general anxiety/depression-wise I'm taking a TINY dose of Effexor XR in the mornings. It ranges somewhere between 9-12.5mg (I am counting waxy spheroids here). More than that jacks up my blood pressure big time and messes with my sleep. If I take 25mg or more I get hypomanic (on the spot-two hours post-dosing). BUT, it's the ONLY med that I can take a temporary higher dose of during a major depressive crash that will "snap" me out of it reliably. The last week I have been adding 37.5mg of Wellbutrin to try to clear out the ADHD cobwebs. It is working fairly well. I was starting projects and switching to other ones and not getting anything done and since I restarted it-that issue has cleared considerably. The sense of time passing has changed a LOT (it seems to be slowed greatly), and I can hear detaily things a lot better and the WB hasn't upset my sleep like I thought. I'm also taking fish oil EPA but only about 480-720mg/day. I'm wanting to try and find some Carlson's fishoil (I think Noa takes). So.... I guess you could say that I am on DepaKlonoEffexoMegaButrin. :)
Posted by KrissyP on March 6, 2003, at 23:57:24
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » catmint, posted by Ritch on March 6, 2003, at 10:11:02
Hi Amy, I was just diagnosed with BP in 1999. The only med that has ultimately helped me is Lamictal at 50mg-I was also taking Celexa and Seroquel. Now, I am taking Effexor, Seroquel, Lamictal, and Klonopin-all at night. I have juggled meds endlessly!!!
And ya know I DO wonder what long term effects they are doing to my body-that is why I always say "LESS IS BETTER"-BUT some need to take a lot to satabilize. Wouldn't it be awesome if yes, people with BP could take just 1 med and maybe 1 other instead of all this BS in combining this to help that, yada yada yada??? Right now, I just take as little as possible if I am able to function. I hate meds. But it's what I need right now, at this time in my life to function.
May I ask what dosage of Lamictal you are taking? When do you take it? Do you take any other meds? Your diagnosis?
Hope this isn't too much to ask:-)
I would love to hear back.
Thanks, Kristen
-------------------------------------------------
How many BPs have been successfully treated long term? Do most of us keep juggling medications endlessly?
Does anyone worry what these drugs are doing to our bodies? Are side effects like nausea and headache a precursor for something worse later in life? What about the inert ingredients in all those pills?
All of us just tolerate all those annoying side effects like headaches, weight gain, and worst of all sexual dysfunction, just 'cause depression sucks so bad.Still have blurred vision and headaches from Lamictal, but hey, I'm not depressed.
Amy
Posted by KrissyP on March 7, 2003, at 0:03:33
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » catmint, posted by Ron Hill on March 6, 2003, at 12:02:13
Ron, I agree with this>>>"My experience is that the hypomanic side of my BPII disorder has been successfully treated long-term but the depressive side has been more problematic"
May I ask what you found effective treatment for YOUR atypical depressive phase??? I would appreciate it-Ron you have some great things to say here Could you advise me? I especially like the glass 1/2 full and keep filling-just what I needed to hear Thank you:-)
All the best, Kristen-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Hey Amy,
My experience is that the hypomanic side of my BPII disorder has been successfully treated long-term but the depressive side has been more problematic. As you know, I currently think that I have found an effective treatment for my atypical depressive phase. But it might poop-out, and if it does I'll have to go back to the drawing board. Unfortunately, given the current state-of-the-art in the field of psychiatry, systematic trial-and-error is the best we have. Not willy-nilly trial-and-error, but systematic trial-and-error. What are our alternatives? Live in the pain of depression all our lives? I don't think so!
Instead, I keep a daily "med diary" so I can keep a record of my responses to various meds, supplements, exercise, social influences, and etc. My diary is not elaborate; I don't have time for that. Just the facts, as Joe Friday would say. Bottom line: Keep track of your daily responses to your medications so that you have data that help you to conduct an educated trial-and-error and not just keep juggling medications endlessly. A good medication (or medication combo) is out there for you Amy. Your job, with the help of your pdoc, is to find it.
Yeah, I'm somewhat concerned about these issues. Nobody knows all of the possible long-term effects. But the worry may cause more health problems than the medications themselves. And actually, some meds are thought to be neuroprotective; lithium falls into this category.
The "Kindly Theory" is fairly well accepted. It holds that the more times a BP patient cycles, the worse the disease becomes. If this is true, early-on mood stabilization may actually help to prevent some of the worsening of the mental health disorder with age.
My hunch is that when you conclude the on-going upward titration of your Lamictal and stabilize at a particular dose, then the side effects will subside. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's my hunch.
Best Wishes, Amy. Remember, the glass is half-full, not half-empty. Keep looking for ways to fill the glass even fuller.
-- Ron
Posted by KrissyP on March 7, 2003, at 0:06:49
In reply to Ronald......, posted by colin wallace on March 6, 2003, at 13:47:46
Hi, Col-hang in there buddy!
What does you or anyone think about me continuing the Lamictal and dropping down to 37.5 of the Effexor???? I am thinking about this, after I have read many posts on how effective Lamictal is in BP. I only take 50mg now.
Anyone? Please.
Thanks, Kristen:-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hey Ron,
As a quick point of interest,after a week at 300mg of Lamictal, the AD effect has returned strongly, and the mood curves are much less 'jagged'(if there were such a thing as a jagged curve).
That said, this has corresponded to a few days of blue skies.I'm positive that if I lived somewhere with a more temperate climate,I'd do just fine on Lamictal by itself.
I don't think I've come across anyone else who is literally transformed from normal to a half-crazed,deeply depressed hypomanic state when exposed to two or three days of foul, low rolling grey cloud and rain.Imagine what I go through when it lasts for months on end!It's crippling.
I'm at a complete loss as to how to tackle this(can't see lithium helping, as the mania is always dysphoric.)
Seeing my YDNP tomorrow, so I'll see what 'bright' ideas he comes up with.
Col.
Posted by KrissyP on March 7, 2003, at 0:09:19
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » David Smith, posted by catmint on March 6, 2003, at 14:11:01
Amy, you are occassionally non-compliant too?
So I'm not alone? Did I miss the power2you website?? Where can I get there:-)?
Any reply would be helpful.
Thank you, Kristen-------------------------------David,
Thank you very much for your post. I especially enjoyed the power2you website and have bookmarked it.
As for the Eli Lilly provisions, that doesn't suprise me; I became wary of them when I found out that George Bush Sr. was on their board of directors.
If you don't mind me asking what were the drugs that caused the brain tumors?
Hope you are doing well and would enjoy hearing from you again.
>Occasionally non-compliant,
::Amy
Posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 10:37:29
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » Ron Hill, posted by KrissyP on March 7, 2003, at 0:03:33
Hi Kristen,
> May I ask what you found effective treatment for YOUR atypical depressive phase?
I'm in the sixth week of a trial of the over-the-counter supplement called Enada NADH for the treatment of the atypical depressive side of my BPII disorder. So far the results are truly remarkable. Time will tell regarding its long-term effectiveness. I also take 600 mg/day of Lithobid for the hypomanic side of my disorder.
Here are some links to read about this supplement. If you decide to try it, get back to me and I'll tell you about the particular dosing schedule that I have found most effective in my case.
-- Ron
http://www.healthwell.com/hnbreakthroughs/mar98/nadh.cfm?path=hwhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=8101444&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9247090&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9013405&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/substances_view/1,1525,10047,00.html#Cautions
http://www.nadh.com/site7/SYSact20.htm#Top
http://www.nadh.com/site7/RSdprs05.htm#Top
http://www.smart-drugs.com/article-JamesSouth-NADH.htm
http://www.nadh-priceinfo.org/
http://qualitycounts.com/fpnadh.html
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3118/T/Both/
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/powersearch2.cfm (Note: enter “NADH” as keyword)
Posted by KrissyP on March 7, 2003, at 14:01:18
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression » KrissyP, posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 10:37:29
Hi Ron, things that help me with my atypical depression as part of my bipolar II are a lot of times trying to change my thinkning, or taking 1mg of Klonopin. These both help, but the changing the attitude part is tougher.
As far as Enada NADH, at this time, I have no interest in even finding out what that does. I just need to stick with the meds I am on, work with them, and be patient, as well as to continue to read up on my personal struggles and how to deal.
I am so glad that this helps YOU, though.
Ya know, I am keeping your post:-)
because I may be interersted tomorrow-(part of the bipolar moddiness speaking-no doubt)
Is that okay? I am kinda curious now. I appreciate the info, can I get back to you after I do some research???
All the best,
Kristen:-)
Hi Kristen,
>
> > May I ask what you found effective treatment for YOUR atypical depressive phase?
>
> I'm in the sixth week of a trial of the over-the-counter supplement called Enada NADH for the treatment of the atypical depressive side of my BPII disorder. So far the results are truly remarkable. Time will tell regarding its long-term effectiveness. I also take 600 mg/day of Lithobid for the hypomanic side of my disorder.
>
> Here are some links to read about this supplement. If you decide to try it, get back to me and I'll tell you about the particular dosing schedule that I have found most effective in my case.
>
> -- Ron
>
>
> http://www.healthwell.com/hnbreakthroughs/mar98/nadh.cfm?path=hw
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=8101444&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9247090&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9013405&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/substances_view/1,1525,10047,00.html#Cautions
>
> http://www.nadh.com/site7/SYSact20.htm#Top
>
> http://www.nadh.com/site7/RSdprs05.htm#Top
>
> http://www.smart-drugs.com/article-JamesSouth-NADH.htm
>
> http://www.nadh-priceinfo.org/
>
> http://qualitycounts.com/fpnadh.html
>
> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3118/T/Both/
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12385067&dopt=Abstract
>
> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/powersearch2.cfm (Note: enter “NADH” as keyword)
>
>
>
Posted by ShelliR on March 7, 2003, at 15:54:56
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression » Ron Hill, posted by KrissyP on March 7, 2003, at 14:01:18
<If you decide to try it, get back to me and I'll tell you about the particular dosing schedule that I have found most effective in my case.>
I'd really like to know your dosing, if you don't mind. I think I'm going to try NADH.
Thanks,
Shelli
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 7, 2003, at 16:19:46
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression » KrissyP, posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 10:37:29
> Here are some links to read about this supplement. If you decide to try it, get back to me and I'll tell you about the particular dosing schedule that I have found most effective in my case.
>
> -- RonRon, I'm really interested in hearing about your experience with this supplement, and your dosing schedule. I'm particularly intrigued by the evidence that this may help to overcome some of the burdensome symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 18:52:02
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression » KrissyP, posted by ShelliR on March 7, 2003, at 15:54:56
Hi Shelli
> I'd really like to know your dosing, if you don't mind. I think I'm going to try NADH.
Please remember that I’m in the early stages (sixth week) of this Enada NADH trial, so these results should be treated as preliminary in nature. Here’s what I have experienced so far.
I started out taking 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation (EnadAlert NADH). I felt my atypical depression (low motivation, anergy, anhedonia, hypersomnia) and dysphoric mood states (extreme irritability) begin to lift within thirty seconds after placing the sublingual tablet under my tongue. Within three days, my depression and dysphoric mood states were in complete remission. It snapped me out of a three-month-long deep depressive cycle that I just could not pull myself out of.
After ten days, however, this dose (and formulation) induced irritability. So I switched to the enteric-coated Enada NADH “down-the-hatch” formulation. I took one of the 5 mg tablets per day. The irritability immediately stopped and the remarkable AD benefits continued.
However, four weeks into the trial I began to get VERY sleepy about four hours after my dose. Therefore, I skipped my dose for two days. The sleepiness went away on the first skipped day and the positive benefits remained.
For the past two weeks, I have been experimenting with my dosing schedule to find the optimal maintenance dosage for my body. When using 5 mg tablets, the schedule that seems to work best for me is to take 5 mg on day one, skip days two and three, and repeat the sequence starting on day four. When I tried skipping three days, my dysphoric mood states and low motivation begin to reappear on the third skipped day. I ordered some 2.5 mg tablets and they arrived yesterday. My plan is to try 2.5 mg every other day starting tommorrow.
Ray Sahelian, M.D., in his book titled "Mind Boosters: A Guide to Natural Supplements that Enhance Your Mind, Memory, and Mood", recommends taking no more than 2.5 mg two or three times per week. His main concerns regarding higher doses are the potential for building a tolerance to NADH and that the medical community doesn't know a lot about this stuff yet. My preliminary assessment is that I'll probably end up taking about 2.5 mg three times per week as a maintenance dose. Time will tell with regard to the dose and whether this stuff has any long-term efficacy.
This may have been more information than you wanted. I can get a little long winded. Knowing what I know now, I would have started by taking 5 mg/day of the enteric-coated product for a week or so to get a kick start, and then I’d titrate down to 2.5 mg every other day. But everyone is unique so your mileage (and dosage) may vary.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 19:27:01
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression, posted by Larry Hoover on March 7, 2003, at 16:19:46
Larry,
> Ron, I'm really interested in hearing about your experience with this supplement, and your dosing schedule. I'm particularly intrigued by the evidence that this may help to overcome some of the burdensome symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome.
A week or so ago, I began to write a post to you regarding the possibility that Enada NADH might be worth your time to look into for treatment of your CFS. I deleted it for concern that I might come across as being presumptuous.
As far as my experience with the supplement goes, I'll route you to the post I left for Shelli higher up in this thread:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030306/msgs/206934.html
I'm sure you've seen the study posted on PubMed regarding this topic, but I'll post the link along with a couple others. Probably nothing that you've not already seen.
-- Ron
http://www.nadh.com/fatigue/Cfs205.htm
http://www.immunesupport.com/news/nadh.htm
Posted by Beastress on March 7, 2003, at 20:03:31
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression, posted by Larry Hoover on March 7, 2003, at 16:19:46
Hi Larry,
I've been following Ron Hill's posts with a great deal of interest as I have had some pretty CFS-like symptoms continuing after ceasing Effexor. I had read about NADH for CFS and considered trying it. For what its worth after 3 days (at 2.5 mg), the muscle knots and pain are almost gone, the fogginess is abating, and I have a bit more energy than I've been used to after the last 6 months. This is really hopeful this soon after trying it---I hope it continues. I'm watching Mr. Hill to see how it works out for the longer term.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 7, 2003, at 20:18:59
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for CFS? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 19:27:01
> Larry,
> A week or so ago, I began to write a post to you regarding the possibility that Enada NADH might be worth your time to look into for treatment of your CFS. I deleted it for concern that I might come across as being presumptuous.
Presumptuous? I am always grateful to anyone offering support and suggestions. It's taken a long time for me to "tease out" the different aspects of my various disorders. I think CFS may be more problematic to treat than any of the rest. I'm happy to hear that this worked for you.
> As far as my experience with the supplement goes, I'll route you to the post I left for Shelli higher up in this thread:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030306/msgs/206934.htmlSo, I get the impression that there may be two phases to treatment: acute and maintenance. Early on, you're needing a higher dose to overcome a general deficit in ATP formation (and perhaps, dopamine synthesis), while later on you need to supplement at lower doses to maintain the benefits without tipping towards excess.
> I'm sure you've seen the study posted on PubMed regarding this topic, but I'll post the link along with a couple others. Probably nothing that you've not already seen.
>
> -- Ron
>Anecdote from someone with a scientific approach means as much to me as published material, due to the possibility of bias. Thanks.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 7, 2003, at 20:43:41
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression » Larry Hoover, posted by Beastress on March 7, 2003, at 20:03:31
Posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 21:53:23
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for CFS?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 7, 2003, at 20:18:59
> So, I get the impression that there may be two phases to treatment: acute and maintenance. Early on, you're needing a higher dose to overcome a general deficit in ATP formation (and perhaps, dopamine synthesis), while later on you need to supplement at lower doses to maintain the benefits without tipping towards excess.
Yeah, that's my read on it too, Larry. We'll have to see what happens in the longer term.
-- Ron
Posted by KrissyP on March 8, 2003, at 1:31:50
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression » KrissyP, posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 10:37:29
Ron,
I think at this point because of my mania, the part that said "NADH is now available as a dietary supplement for people whose lifestyle demands increased energy, vitality and mental activity". I have enough of that component already.
Thnaks for your kindness
--A very frustrated Kristen
Posted by Ron Hill on March 8, 2003, at 9:31:52
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression, posted by KrissyP on March 8, 2003, at 1:31:50
Kristen,
> I think at this point because of my mania, the part that said "NADH is now available as a dietary supplement for people whose lifestyle demands increased energy, vitality and mental activity". I have enough of that component already.
I absolutely agree with you. Enada NADH is not what you need at this point. Some additional mood stabilization, on the other hand, might very well be of benefit to you.
-- Ron
Posted by ShelliR on March 8, 2003, at 10:27:24
In reply to Re: Enada NADH for BP II Atypical Depression » ShelliR, posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2003, at 18:52:02
> Hi Shelli
>
> > I'd really like to know your dosing, if you don't mind. I think I'm going to try NADH.
>Thanks so much Ron; that's good stuff for me to know. More is not necessarily better.
Shelli
Posted by David Smith on March 9, 2003, at 15:24:57
In reply to Re: Do Psych meds really work long term for BPs? » David Smith, posted by catmint on March 6, 2003, at 14:11:01
Catmint-
Thank you for the support.
Sorry I don't have that info.
Two of the people were neighbors
( a mother and daughter) and the other
was my cousin and at the time,
I was too grief stricken to ask questions.
ALL of the instances involved very long term usage.Who knows? Maybe it wasn't the drugs
which induced the tumors. It could have been
a result of their "illness."
Thanks again,
dave
This is the end of the thread.
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