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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
They INDUCE a chemical imbalance.
Just thought I would share.
Posted by viridis on March 1, 2003, at 14:26:04
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
It depends on what your problem is and which AD you're using. For some, they do correct an imbalance very well; for others they make it worse or introduce new problems. I seem to fall into the second category (at least with the ADs I've tried) but I know others who have had great success with SSRIs etc.
Posted by sienna on March 1, 2003, at 14:39:14
In reply to Re: Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalan » Caleb462, posted by viridis on March 1, 2003, at 14:26:04
Zoloft has worked wonders for me.
Posted by SLS on March 1, 2003, at 15:11:08
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
> They INDUCE a chemical imbalance.
>
> Just thought I would share.
Thanks for sharing.This is, of course, absolutely true in many cases - perhaps all cases. I would speculate that it is the brain's attempt at re-regulating itself in opposition to this new drug-induced imbalance that produces the normalization of function that becomes the antidepressant response.
- Scott
Posted by Jack Smith on March 1, 2003, at 16:14:07
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
If you feel better as many people do when they use AD's, then who cares?
You are healthier if you are not depressed. Period. Medical fact. Not interested in anti-medication propaganda. Save it for the Church of Scientology.
Just thought I'd share.
Jack
Posted by fachad on March 1, 2003, at 16:23:21
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
How do you know that?
Are you saying that you have a complete and accurate understanding of the brain, neurochemestry, and the brain/mind relationship?
Without that knowledge, I don't think anyone can say with any degree of certainty whether or not ADs fix chemical imbalances, or whether or not they create chemical imbalances.
The limit of our knowledge is determined by experience. The only rational, empirically based assertion we can make about ADs is that in some cases people report relief from emotional distress after taking them for some time, and that in studies where both active ADs and inactive placebos are used, the ADs do better (sometimes only a tiny bit better) than placebos. It's also reasonable to say that some people report various unintened and sometimes unpleasent effects from taking ADs, although they also report these same side effects from taking a placebo.
Posted by stjames on March 1, 2003, at 18:15:36
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
> They INDUCE a chemical imbalance.
>
> Just thought I would share.However it works, it has worked well for me
for over 20 years.
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2003, at 18:56:04
In reply to Re: Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by stjames on March 1, 2003, at 18:15:36
Sometimes these drugs improve mood enough
that the brain can ballence itself. Just
like glasses to not correct your eyes, but
only your vision,of course if a drug doesn't work for you
its probably not correcting anything.Linkadge
Posted by KrissyP on March 1, 2003, at 22:51:07
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
Effexor-XR has done wonders for me
Posted by jay on March 2, 2003, at 4:00:54
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
These horrible mental illness states have been traced back as far back as history was recorded, so they are not some 'fad' or 'drug company made' illness. Once in time primates had to fear many things in their environment, and death was near always. That same predisposition to fear has likely carried itself in the gene pool over history, so we are stuck with these genes set for ultra-hyper-sensitivity that expresses itself in many, many ways. This has likely manifested itself into all forms of mental illness, from depression to bipolar to schizophrenia. There exists no known culture or race of humans who do not know some form of mental illness. It also exists in the animal kingdom quite vastly. Dogs, cats, rats, horses, etc, etc, etc, etc, can easily exhibit various forms of mental illness, often through the one of the most common examples in humans, which is self-injury.Those are facts, using evidence-based science. Environmental factors can, and often do *trigger* at various rates, mental illness through genetic predisposition. It is a fact, mental illness does and has existed as far back as we have recorded. Medications don't just alter chemicals, they alter physical elements of brain size, volume, and many physical characteristics which many scientists suggest may cause some kind of alteration on a genetic expression level, especially when used over time. What they don't know is if the alteration is permanent. But, with genetic manipulation, this may change. There are not a lot of answers with the science of genetics, but with the advance of the Human Genome Project, we are working our way towards genetic medical applications, and it may not be for a few lifetimes yet, but we may be able to intercept some of the many possible genetic interactions and sequences that may predispose us to some of the symptoms of various mental illnesses. No, there won't be just "one" or a *sequence of* simple discoverys, as they say it is likely a large interactions of the 30,000 genes in human DNA.
Jay
Posted by Katia on March 2, 2003, at 17:01:49
In reply to Antidepressants work great for some people, posted by sienna on March 1, 2003, at 14:39:14
How long have you been on Zoloft? i'm on my sixth week or so and I'm not so sure about it yet. How long did it take to kick in for you?
Thanks.
> Zoloft has worked wonders for me.
Posted by ace on March 2, 2003, at 21:01:46
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
Posted by sienna on March 2, 2003, at 21:24:58
In reply to Re: Antidepressants work great for some people » sienna, posted by Katia on March 2, 2003, at 17:01:49
How long have you been on Zoloft? i'm on my sixth week or so and I'm not so sure about it yet. How long did it take to kick in for you?
Thanks.
> Zoloft has worked wonders for me.Katia,
I think it took a couple months to fully kick in. Im on 100mgs. I went to 150 and it aggravated my psychotic symptoms so went back down. Theres a study that shows thatmore people do better around 100 mgs then at 150. I dont have any real side effects from it. Im pretty active but that didnt keep Zyprexa from putting weight on me, but Zoloft
hasnt put weight on me at all. I had tried
paxil but had headaches and other side effects. I would wait a little longer to see if it works for you. Sometimes it does take a couple months. How are you feeling now?Sienna
Posted by Katia on March 2, 2003, at 22:03:40
In reply to Re: Antidepressants work great for some people, posted by sienna on March 2, 2003, at 21:24:58
I am really really tired all the time and I sleep late. (which isn't a bad thing altogether as I normally am an insomniac). But I would like a normal sleeping pattern for once in my life!! I will give it a least two months, esp. b/c I've only been at 100mg for almost two weeks. We'll see....thank you so much for replying. and by the way, what a beautiful name you have!
Katia> How long have you been on Zoloft? i'm on my sixth week or so and I'm not so sure about it yet. How long did it take to kick in for you?
> Thanks.
> > Zoloft has worked wonders for me.
>
> Katia,
> I think it took a couple months to fully kick in. Im on 100mgs. I went to 150 and it aggravated my psychotic symptoms so went back down. Theres a study that shows thatmore people do better around 100 mgs then at 150. I dont have any real side effects from it. Im pretty active but that didnt keep Zyprexa from putting weight on me, but Zoloft
> hasnt put weight on me at all. I had tried
> paxil but had headaches and other side effects. I would wait a little longer to see if it works for you. Sometimes it does take a couple months. How are you feeling now?
>
> Sienna
Posted by ace on March 2, 2003, at 22:08:20
In reply to Who cares? » Caleb462, posted by Jack Smith on March 1, 2003, at 16:14:07
Posted by Caleb462 on March 2, 2003, at 23:44:49
In reply to Re: Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by SLS on March 1, 2003, at 15:11:08
> This is, of course, absolutely true in many cases - perhaps all cases. I would speculate that it is the brain's attempt at re-regulating itself in opposition to this new drug-induced imbalance that produces the normalization of function that becomes the antidepressant response.
Thank you. I think you are the only person who understood my post.For the record, I was not saying anything good or bad about the drugs, was simply stating objective fact.
Posted by sienna on March 3, 2003, at 12:25:07
In reply to Re: Antidepressants work great for some people » sienna, posted by Katia on March 2, 2003, at 22:03:40
Hi Katia,
My sleep is messed up too, but not because of the zoloft. I have always had hard time going to bed and a hard time getting up in the mornign. Yeah if you arent haveing any other side effects waiting it out is a good idea. I really hope it works for you. I really have found it practically unnoticeable except that I have really boosted my mood even in the face of some fairly stressful stuff.
Oh, and thanks for saying my name is beautiful. I like yours too. =)
Sienna
Posted by ace on March 3, 2003, at 19:31:44
In reply to Re: Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 2, 2003, at 23:44:49
Hey Caleb!,
I hope I didn't sound rude, but that sort of comment DOES indeed come out of the Church of Scientology a lot!I think they do in fact fix chemical imbablances (NOT always perfectly of course), but I see your point. A year and a half ago I woulf have agreed 100% but from personally experience we will have to agree to disagree. Anyhow, would would this site be without disagreement!!
Take Care,
Ace.
Posted by Shawn. T. on March 3, 2003, at 22:28:39
In reply to Anti-depressants do not fix a chemical imbalance., posted by Caleb462 on March 1, 2003, at 14:03:46
I think that it's obviously important to separate the issue of whether or not antidepressants actually help people from the issue of how they affect "chemical imbalances." I think that antidepressants may correct the dysregulation of neurotransmitters/neuromodulators, but the antidepressant used and the person in question make all the difference.
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI's) increase extracellular levels of serotonin. So if you want to make the claim that SSRI's are directly correcting an imbalance in serotonin levels, you have to show that depressed people taking them exhibit low serotonin activity without these drugs. Studies have shown that from 29% to 35% of people with depression fall in the low serotonin activity subgroup. Note that dopamine turnover may also be decreased in a portion of this subgroup. So, if the dopamine correlation is ignored, roughly 29% to 35% of people with depression who are taking an SSRI are directly correcting a chemical imbalance.
What about drugs that solely inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine (like reboxetine or Strattera) or drugs that inhibit the reuptake of both norepinephrine and serotonin (like Effexor or duloxetine)? I have no data on the percentage of people with unipolar depression that exhibit high or low norepinephrine activity, but all of the data that is available points to a trend toward higher norepinephrine activity in a subgroup of patients. Information on the interaction between this subgroup and selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors is unavailable, so I'm not quite sure how these drugs would affect someone with high norepinephrine activity. TCA's that inhibit the reuptake of both norepinephrine and serotonin do decrease norepinephrine turnover in responders with previously high norepinephrine activity, but this is a trend seen with serotonin reuptake inhibitors in general.
If SSRI's decrease norepinephrine turnover in people with high norepinephrine activity coupled with normal serotonin activity, do they not still correct an imbalance? The argument here clearly must involve the question of whether or not the imbalance in serotonin activity that is created as a result of correcting norepinephrine dysregulation is justified. Increased serotonin activity can certainly lead to side effects, so the answer to this question will remain up to the experiences of the individual taking the drug.
I won't delve into dopamine, but rest assured that dopamine dysregulation occurs in a subgroup of people with unipolar depression. Again, the real answer to the question of "chemical imbalance" depends on the drug and the person taking the drug. If you desire references, see http://www.neurotransmitter.net/serotonindepression.html or
http://www.neurotransmitter.net/nedepression.html
Shawn
This is the end of the thread.
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