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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 14:55:36
Hey all, I could really use some input on something. I'm considering taking dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine to help boost DA and NE and offset my apathy brought on from my SSRI since it tends to slow me down during the first half of the day.
Has anybody noticed an effect from either dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine? Past posters have mentioned a preference for phenylalanine over tyrosine since phenlyalanine can also modulate PEA functioning. But I'd just like to know if either one has actually WORKED and to what degree for the following: Mood effect, Focus, and energy/motivation. Other info like dosing and what times you optimally take them during the day would also be helpful.
I am hoping to combine with a low dose of seleligine for a longer effect. Any thoughts there as well? Thanks in advance for any input.
HK
Posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 16:31:42
In reply to how much help from dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine?, posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 14:55:36
Hi:I have taken these suppliments quite frequently in the past, and they can cause HORRID anxiety and aggitation. I mean..it is *BAD*! I also ended up in the emergency room with major spiked blood pressure. (Even in small amounts.) I've also read of the strong link between phenylalanine intake and cancer.
From the research, I've seen mixed results at all in just *boosting* dopamine, and think you may get some better help from a small amount of Zyprexa (which modulates dopamine..increases in some areas...decreases in others.) I read on here some success with adding a good dose of Buspar also.
Best wishes,
Jay
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 31, 2003, at 16:45:43
In reply to dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine...*Be Careful!!* » hok, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 16:31:42
>
> Hi:
>
> I have taken these suppliments quite frequently in the past, and they can cause HORRID anxiety and aggitation. I mean..it is *BAD*! I also ended up in the emergency room with major spiked blood pressure. (Even in small amounts.)Just to provide a contrasting experience, DLPA has given me focus and clarity, without adverse events.
>I've also read of the strong link between phenylalanine intake and cancer.<spock eyebrow> What link would that be?
Posted by michael73 on January 31, 2003, at 19:43:21
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine...*Be Careful!!* » jay, posted by Larry Hoover on January 31, 2003, at 16:45:43
What do the prefixes dl,l etc signify on some supplements? Is there more than one version of phenylalanine? Michael73
Posted by missliz on January 31, 2003, at 21:19:10
In reply to Re: dl, l ?, posted by michael73 on January 31, 2003, at 19:43:21
The prefixes have to do with slightly different varieties of the same drug. Sometimes this is no biggy, sometimes it's a VERY big deal. I am also curious about about these two supplements and haver heard only extremes about them, either really great things or absolute disasters. I'd do some major google time on them first, or ask my doc if he's a nutrition freindly sort.
Much more importantly, I would absolutely not mix selegiline, which is an MAOI, with an SSRI. I don't care what you heard read whatever, you can fry your brain on that combination. It's called seretonin syndrome and you don't want it to happen to you.For every report of selegiline mixing successfully with an MAOI no no, there are nasty stories that don't get written up. Mostly the SSRI messes.
The easier safer thing to do is more SSRI, or different SSRI, or wash out and go to another class of AD. Selegiline and phenylalanine is documented to work for some people but they weren't mixing it with an SSRI. Which are not all they're cracked up to be. Most of them just paint the inside of your head beige instead of black.
I've been on selegiline and it's cool stuff, but still very much an MAOI and still demanding of your respect as such. This isn't worth becoming a vegetable over.missliz
Posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 21:50:16
In reply to Re: SSRIs + MAOIs- BAD idea, posted by missliz on January 31, 2003, at 21:19:10
thank you for the concern about the MAOI/SSRI coctail. I am well aware of the potential hazard, and I guess I should have mentioned that the selegiline would only be an adjunct option should I choose to switch up my current med combo.
> The prefixes have to do with slightly different varieties of the same drug. Sometimes this is no biggy, sometimes it's a VERY big deal. I am also curious about about these two supplements and haver heard only extremes about them, either really great things or absolute disasters. I'd do some major google time on them first, or ask my doc if he's a nutrition freindly sort.
> Much more importantly, I would absolutely not mix selegiline, which is an MAOI, with an SSRI. I don't care what you heard read whatever, you can fry your brain on that combination. It's called seretonin syndrome and you don't want it to happen to you.For every report of selegiline mixing successfully with an MAOI no no, there are nasty stories that don't get written up. Mostly the SSRI messes.
> The easier safer thing to do is more SSRI, or different SSRI, or wash out and go to another class of AD. Selegiline and phenylalanine is documented to work for some people but they weren't mixing it with an SSRI. Which are not all they're cracked up to be. Most of them just paint the inside of your head beige instead of black.
> I've been on selegiline and it's cool stuff, but still very much an MAOI and still demanding of your respect as such. This isn't worth becoming a vegetable over.
>
> missliz
Posted by disney4 on February 1, 2003, at 3:55:20
In reply to dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine...*Be Careful!!* » hok, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 16:31:42
I think many people, and especially pdocs have discounted Buspar, because it takes time to build up. I think it can have very positive effects without all the negative SE's of other pscych meds! From what I have read it can have a modulating effect on Serotonin and boost dopamine and NE in a very mild way. For many it would probably be too mild an affect, but for me it may hit the mark. It is all I have for the time being, because I have had so many failed drug trials due to intolerable SE's. I can't wait for Gepirone ER to hit the market, although Buspar could work better for me.
Posted by viridis on February 1, 2003, at 6:36:09
In reply to how much help from dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine?, posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 14:55:36
I tried phenylalanine (and all sorts of other supplements) before I got back onto prescription meds that finally worked for my anxiety and depression. Phenylalanine seemed to have a definite effect (I can't remember how much I took; it was a pretty "standard" dose, if there is such a thing), but I didn't like it. It was activating, but in an irritating way -- not terrible, but also not pleasant for someone with severe anxiety problems. But I could see how it might be useful for someone without such a strong anxiety component.
BTW, of the many over-the-counter supplements I've tried, the ones that actually seem to benefit me are fish oil and hempseed oil (subtle but seem to help with overall stability; I take 8 g of fish oil/day for a total of about 1.2 g EPA, plus a couple of teaspoons of hempseed oil -- very good in salad dressings); SAM-e (some mild antidepressant action at 800 mg/day); trimethylglycine (TMG, = anhydrous betaine; similar in effects to SAM-e but much cheaper; 1500 mg/day); and L-theanine (an amino acid found in tea; has a definite focusing effect and is worth trying at 100- 200 mg two or three times a day).
With any of these supplements, I'd start at a low dose and see how you react -- the amounts I've listed are just what seem to work for me, and I started each at much lower doses. And, I think I'll try Rhodiola rosea next (cautiously), since some here seem to benefit.
Overall though, the greatest benefits have definitely come from prescription drugs for me; the supplements are just extras now to help smooth things out and (I hope) improve my general health.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 1, 2003, at 7:21:20
In reply to Re: dl, l ?, posted by michael73 on January 31, 2003, at 19:43:21
> What do the prefixes dl,l etc signify on some supplements? Is there more than one version of phenylalanine? Michael73
The d- and l- prefixes stand for dextro- and levo-, meaning right and left, respectively. Some molecules come in three-dimensionally distinct forms, just as a right glove and left glove are identical in all respects, but for their "handedness". In nature, that handedness is really important, and most higher life forms have evolved to use the l- form of amino acids exclusively. So, natural-source amino acids will be the l- version, unless they are from fermentation, where some d- forms are present (just as an example, about 10% of the aminos in beer are d- versions). When humans synthesize amino acids in reaction vessels, there is an equal probability that the l- and d- structures will be created. So man-made aminos are designated d-,l- (which means they are roughly 50% d- and 50% l-). D-,l-phenylalanine (or DLPA) is one example of this.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on February 1, 2003, at 10:01:17
In reply to how much help from dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine?, posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 14:55:36
I did a lot of research on both these supplements before trying them both individually and combination.
Like Viridis I did not like the effect of the DL phenylalinine.....this was merely at a standard 500mg dose...it made me edgy and a little anxious.
I liked the effect of the l-tyrosine. I would take 500mg half an hour to an hour before breakfast on an empty stomach. I don't know if it was placebo or not but it did appear to give me a little bit of a kick start to the day that is probably healthier for you than a cup of coffee. It did not create the edgy feeling that the DL-phenylalanine gave me. Also I used to dissolve the tablet in a glass of water before taking it as I found that this avoided a little stomach irritation that taking the tablet whole would give me first thing in the morning. Other than dissolving better in water than the dl-phenyalinine it also tasted a damn site better.
This is my personal experience only and you may do better on the DL-phenylalanine but I agree with Viridis that for myself who has a an anxiety disorder as my primary diagnosis the l-tyrosine was definitely a better deal. 500mg did the trick for me but sometimes I would also take another 500mg mid afternoon (again on an empty stomach) if I was having a bad day. I still take the l-tyrosine on those mornings when I am feeling like I am going to have a bad day depression wise and it does seem to help somewhat.
I would recommend giving both these supplements a go but would start with the L-tyrosine first. Neither of these supplements will do you any harm at standard doses (500-1000mg) and you'll never know if they will work for you unless you give them a try.
best wishes
bluedog
Posted by Shawn. T. on February 1, 2003, at 14:16:09
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine - my experience » hok, posted by bluedog on February 1, 2003, at 10:01:17
Posted by missliz on February 1, 2003, at 15:27:45
In reply to Re: SSRIs + MAOIs- BAD idea » missliz, posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 21:50:16
I'm glad to hear that- people mail order stuff and screw themselves over horribly. Selegiline gets held out as a 'wonder supplement", usually as deprenyl, and I've heard some real horror stories from residents in the program where I'm treated.
I took selegiline, 15 mg a day, for six months and thought it pretty swell stuff. The only mood stabilizers that really work for me without side effect havoc are Tegretol/ Trileptal, which are really dicey with MAOIs so I had to choose the Trileptal.
The cheapest easiest way to juice up your PEA levels is aerobic exercise- not a lecture, a fact. They did the double blind yada controlled yada yada studies in England, and did a big control group of Normals ;) with it. Exercise raises PEA levels in severly depressed people to normal or plus normal quickly, and even a nice walk will do this. I don't have a reference handy, but as a cross country MT bike racer for a lot of years I know it to be true. I've been severely injured and laid up for a few years and a LOT sicker, I miss the exercise fix terribly. It's hard to get started, but if you can get the habit going it works better than more medication. Like fish oil, but a different stink (hahhahhah! couldn't resist!)Actually, theres a study showing regular moderate exercise to be superior to Paxil, too.
Just a thought.missliz
Posted by wingedcat on February 1, 2003, at 18:34:12
In reply to how much help from dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine?, posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 14:55:36
I have had a great effect in a short amount of time from DLPA + low dose Deprenyl. See my post here...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030130/msgs/138787.html
Just be sure never to combine any Opiate (Demerol, Vicodin) with the Deprenyl. I put a little card next to my driver's license and I think I'm going to get a ID bracelet too.
You should stop the SSRI for a few weeks before starting Deprenyl or any MAOI. But in my opinion, SSRI's don't do s**t anyway ;) Especially if you're the kind of person that's helped out by a stimulant, which I am.
DLPA has to be taken on an empty stomach. I take 400 mg upon awakening and more later if I feel I need it. Deprenyl (pill form) has to be taken with food, so I take 2.5 - 5 mg with breakfast. I'm still experimenting with the dosage. Some days I feel I need more and some days less but I've taken up to 5 mg with breakfast + 2.5 mg with lunch with no ill effects.
Posted by wingedcat on February 1, 2003, at 18:44:50
In reply to how much help from dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine?, posted by hok on January 31, 2003, at 14:55:36
I should add that I do have anxiety that can be very severe. However, I've found that my anxiety is actually lessened by stimulants. The Deprenyl + DLPA is no exception... I'm feeling a lot less anxious. At 7.5 mg Deprenyl I started to feel TOO wound up, as in not being able to sit still and trouble falling asleep. No anxiety though. So with me, that is the max dose, although you may be different.
I do notice a slight "high" with this. It is nice, in my opinion. It's like a slight pleasant tingling... and when I eat chocolate it's like WOW so I assume it's the PEA! This is important in my case because it is taking away any desire to do stimulants like amphetamines :)
Posted by bluedog on February 1, 2003, at 20:23:26
In reply to Re: how much help from dl-phenylalanine or l-tyrosine? » hok, posted by wingedcat on February 1, 2003, at 18:44:50
Because everyone has such different experiences with these supplements. (Dl-PHe or L-tyr).
It's really not that much different from the different experiences people have with the various AD meds:).The only thing you can do is give them a go to find out what your personal reaction to these supplements is!!
good luck
bluedog
Posted by hok on February 2, 2003, at 17:47:49
In reply to HOK - I'll bet your confused!!!, posted by bluedog on February 1, 2003, at 20:23:26
all this feedack's been great.
I just picked up some tyrosine at the local health food store. I'm going to give it a go at 500-1000 mg a day for a week to see how it goes. The clerk there was saying to me that he suffers from some fatigue issues and NADH also helped, so I might also try that. Anybody use them in combo?
Think I'll wait on the dl-phenylalanine until I see how the tyrosine goes.
Thanks for the input everybody.
Posted by wingedcat on February 3, 2003, at 0:24:30
In reply to Re: going to start with the tyrosine first, posted by hok on February 2, 2003, at 17:47:49
NADH is really good stuff, I tried the under the tongue brand from GNC. The only problem with that is that it's a little expensive, ordering online might be cheaper. The reason I like phenylalanine better than tyrosine is because it's a step closer to the neurotransmitter. It might, however, provide some other benefits... like some people have reported better benefits from straight tryptophan as opposed to 5htp.
Whatever you pick, I hope it works for you :)
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