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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 30, 2003, at 11:02:06
Is it me, or does this study make the claim that depressed patients actually have *more* EPA than usual?
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Long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in endogenous depression.Ellis FR, Sanders TA.
The fatty acid composition of the plasma choline phosphoglycerides (CPG) and erythrocyte ethanolamine phosphoglycerides (EPG) were detemined in a series of patients suffering from endogenous depression, a number of patients from the same ward with non-depressive psychiatric disorders, and a number of age- and sex-matched healthy control subjects. A significantly higher proportion of long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids, in particular eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5omega3) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6omega3), was found in the subjects with endogenous depression compared with the controls. This change was reflected to a lesser extent in the erythrocyte EPG. The proportions of the two prostaglandin precursors gamma-dihomolinolenic acid (20:3omega6) and arachidonic acid (20:4omega6) were similar in both groups. The fatty acid composition of the plasma CPG and erythrocyte EPG of a number of subjects from the same ward with non-depressive psychiatric disorders did not differ from that of the healthy controls. It is suggested that the analysis of the fatty acid composition of plasma CPG may be of diagnostic value and could be involved in the pathology of endogenous depression.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 30, 2003, at 11:51:50
In reply to Old fish oil study, posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 30, 2003, at 11:02:06
> Is it me, or does this study make the claim that depressed patients actually have *more* EPA than usual?
Yup. That's what it says. One caveat: these are blood components. Moreover, I've never before seen any study which showed these higher levels in depressives. All other results are quite the contrary.
Lar
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 30, 2003, at 14:16:29
In reply to Re: Old fish oil study, posted by Larry Hoover on January 30, 2003, at 11:51:50
>I've never before seen any study which showed these higher levels in depressives. All other results are quite the contrary.
---------------I thought it was counter to the current thinking. Having seen all the hoopla over Omega3 acids, I did some searches on PubMed and came across that. I couldn't however, find anything that posited why or how the fatty acids in fish oils alleviate depression (or bipolar, etc). What's the pharmacology behind its action? I assume it addresses some deficiency, enabling a normal process to complete. Most of the research focused on it's role in benefitting cancer patients and heart attack victims.
I bought some, regardless, a week ago, and have been taking the recommended dosage on the bottle (though it seems that the optimal dose for EPA is higher than this provides). What aspects of mood should this eventually address? I'm most in need of "clear-headedness" (for lack of a better term) and overall activation (alertness).
Posted by noa on January 30, 2003, at 18:27:13
In reply to Re: Old fish oil study, posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 30, 2003, at 14:16:29
The only thing I've read and understood so far has been about how omega 3's affect cells of the circulatory system in terms of their responsiveness to serotonin. I don't remember the reference, but if I find it, I'll post it. I would love to learn more about the "how", too.
Posted by Creaky_Neurons on January 31, 2003, at 10:33:54
In reply to Old fish oil study, posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 30, 2003, at 11:02:06
my understanding is that most of the conductive material in the brain is composed of fatty acids of the omega series. most of the fats in our western diet are omega6 and do not have the same electroconductive properties of the omega3 series.
so...
you munch on fish oil for a while and these omega3 fats become incorporated into the neurons of the brain. once there, they smoothly propogate various impulses, making whatever catecholamines you've got left work better. turnover of dopamine & serotonin are reportedly higher, but we're still lacking large-scale truthenslabben on all this.
the effect (to me) is not massive, but it is real,
especially when combined with an AD. there are even reports of hypomania.creaked.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 31, 2003, at 16:08:11
In reply to Re: Old fish oil study, posted by Creaky_Neurons on January 31, 2003, at 10:33:54
> the effect (to me) is not massive, but it is real,
> especially when combined with an AD. there are even reports of hypomania.
----------------Interesting. I was wondering something else along those lines... If these fatty acids enhance neural transmission, is it possible that they might exacerbate conditions such as epilepsy?
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 31, 2003, at 16:39:49
In reply to Old fish oil study, posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 30, 2003, at 11:02:06
This is an old study published in 1977.I do not know though how to explain the result.I wonder how many patients were involved? Has anybody any ideas on the matter?
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 31, 2003, at 16:50:05
In reply to Re: Old fish oil study, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 31, 2003, at 16:39:49
> This is an old study published in 1977.I do not know though how to explain the result.I wonder how many patients were involved? Has anybody any ideas on the matter?
The only thing I can suggest is that the entire paper needs study, rather than merely the abstract. It would be pure speculation to attempt to explain the published results without considering the methodology and data interpretation. Abstracts can contain errors (like inverting subject group identification) which are obvious when the full paper is read.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 31, 2003, at 17:04:40
In reply to Re: Old fish oil study » Creaky_Neurons, posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 31, 2003, at 16:08:11
> > the effect (to me) is not massive, but it is real,
> > especially when combined with an AD. there are even reports of hypomania.
> ----------------
>
> Interesting. I was wondering something else along those lines... If these fatty acids enhance neural transmission, is it possible that they might exacerbate conditions such as epilepsy?If anything, I'd suggest that fish oil would inhibit epileptic neural transmission. Synapses transmit both excitatory and inhibitory impulses, and epilepsy is arguably the loss of inhibitory signalling, which nonetheless requires a neuron to "fire" to inhibit the next neuron down the line.
The omega-3 fatty acids in the fish oils increase membrane fluidity, which is believed to make neurotransmitter receptors more able to respond to stimuli. DHA in particular has also been found to enhance intra-neuronal signalling strength (i.e. within a neuron with activated receptors), via second-messengers like G-proteins. There is also speculation that chemical products derived from membrane-bound omega-3s are themselves signalling compounds within neurons, affecting gene expression.
I can't think of a reason for omega-3s leading to adverse brain function *in the long term*, though short-term effects like insomnia and mood destabilization are fairly common. There is so much interplay between regulatory systems within the brain that disturbing the balance of one system will invariably require adjustments in others, which do take time to reach balance again.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on February 1, 2003, at 20:44:55
In reply to Re: Old fish oil study, posted by Larry Hoover on January 31, 2003, at 17:04:40
Larry, you mentioned short term mood destabilization and insommnia. Although I
am not experiencing this, is this an effect
of fish oil or omega 3 from flax. Dr. Stoll
said fish oil has powerful mood stabilizing effects, but that there were cases of mania from
flax oil. Is this what you are taking about ?
Fish oil supposidy inhibits signal transduction like lithium. I am confused.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 2, 2003, at 12:16:11
In reply to Can fish oil cause mania ?, posted by linkadge on February 1, 2003, at 20:44:55
> Larry, you mentioned short term mood destabilization and insommnia. Although I
> am not experiencing this, is this an effect
> of fish oil or omega 3 from flax. Dr. Stoll
> said fish oil has powerful mood stabilizing effects, but that there were cases of mania from
> flax oil. Is this what you are taking about ?
> Fish oil supposidy inhibits signal transduction like lithium. I am confused.
> LinkadgeI was really thinking of anecdotal experience. I've seen reports on Babble of mood swings, and I know one person who can't use fish oil because it causes mania in her, yet flax oil is safe and effective. Individual differences make blanket statements inappropriate. I was just trying to warn anyone that adverse or even paradoxical reactions are possible.
Lar
Posted by noa on February 2, 2003, at 13:39:35
In reply to Re: Can fish oil cause mania ?, posted by Larry Hoover on February 2, 2003, at 12:16:11
I have depression without mania, but I can tell yo that for me, I can feel in my body that there is more serotonin action with the fish oil. For me, it shows up as restlessness. So, I can imagine that if fish oil does indeed increase the availablity of serotonin, it could possible cause mania, especially in conjunction with AD medications.
However, it seems Dr. Stoll is studying high doses of EPA fish oil in bipolar disorder, with initial reports indicating that it helps most of the subjects.
Posted by male34 on February 3, 2003, at 14:30:54
In reply to Old fish oil study, posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 30, 2003, at 11:02:06
is fish oil good ar bad for us?
omegas?
Posted by Peter S. on February 3, 2003, at 19:07:15
In reply to Re: Old fish oil study, posted by male34 on February 3, 2003, at 14:30:54
I'm looking for the best and cheapest brand of fish oil. Also the best place to buy. Any ideas on this? Have people noticed a difference in effectiveness between the brands?
thanks!
Posted by comftnumb on February 3, 2003, at 21:10:23
In reply to Fish Oil- best brand Poll, posted by Peter S. on February 3, 2003, at 19:07:15
I use Twinlab Mega Twin EPA. It has 600mg EPA and 240mg DHA per capsule. Also has 63% RDA vitamin e and low cholesterol (12mg). 60 capsules per bottle, cost $16.00 at iherb.com. Here is the link:
http://www.iherb.com/twinepa.html
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