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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2003, at 16:11:06
In reply to Re: please be civil » utopizen, posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2002, at 16:59:12
> PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20021128/msgs/8731.html
Bob
Posted by tancu on January 4, 2003, at 19:29:06
In reply to Re: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2003, at 16:11:06
Hi John. There is certainly a lot of very reasonable, if not profound, insight offerred up here. I expect that you were just exagerating your point when you made the statement about a yr-long coke/heroin binge. I'm sure you realize that such a binge would be impossible, and I hope you will at least consider the possibility that your use of a .25mg of klonipin each evening is hardly comparable to coke and heroin addiction. Perhaps you are being too hard on yourself. Consider this--a 1/4mg of "dust" can settle atop a gold coin in a day. Is the coin now worth less? Can it's luster not be easily restored?
Posted by micky301 on January 4, 2003, at 20:52:25
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » micky301, posted by HIBA on January 4, 2003, at 0:03:20
You are right, there I do not have the answer and If I did I would be happy to give it to you all. I am here to give my viewpoint, and it appeared as though by coincidence mostly everyone here had very little difficulty handling benzo's. I just had to point out that It so happens that my body could not figure itself out after the chemicals in benzodiazepines took hold.
I myself am currently on .5mg of K , 1000mg Fish Oil, Flaxseed oil, and Estradiol.
I will be adding the MAOI Nardil this coming Monday because that is the only drug that has the consistency of good results I am looking for.
Can you explain to me why so many doctors hesitate to prescribe benzos anymore, ive been to a total of 5 pdocs and only one had a favorable attitude towards benzos. Im no doctor, i dont have the answer, but i would hope people with MD's attached to their names do.
Posted by Ritch on January 4, 2003, at 21:43:51
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES » Ritch, posted by harry b. on January 4, 2003, at 15:59:15
> >
> > Hi, are you still taking amitriptyline with your clonazepam? Have you tried any of the SSRI's with clonazepam like Paxil or Zoloft, i.e? If so, have they allowed you to reduce your dosage of K? What does your pdoc want to do as an alternative to clonazepam if you quit it? Sorry for the questions, but am just wondering what your doctor's reasoning is on this issue.. Mitch>
>
> Hi Mitch,
> No, am not taking the amitrip. I do take Parnate, 80mg/day, for depression. My Pdoc's reasoning is that the P should deal with the PA, but I'm unsure of that & damned afraid to find out. Also, I don't think the P would control the facial tics.
>
> I have gone through most of the AD meds available, including the SSRIs. They were no help. I had to virtually plead with my doc to begin treatment with a MAOI, as a lot of docs are reluctant to prescribe them now.
>
> Take care,
> hb
>
>Harry, thanks for responding. My pdoc is reticent to prescribe MAOI's. I am hestitant to take them because of Blood pressure concerns. I suppose I should consider myself fortunate to be panic free (spontaneous panic anyhow) with low dose Klonopin. I have "wigged out" in the recent past and needed 1.5mg of K./day for a few weeks, but I seem to get by OK now on .25-.5mg/day with Depakote and a little Effexor. stay well, Mitch
Posted by harry b. on January 5, 2003, at 0:36:19
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES » harry b., posted by Ritch on January 4, 2003, at 21:43:51
<<My pdoc is reticent to prescribe MAOI's. I am hestitant to take them because of Blood pressure concerns.>>
Rich,
I had the same concerns about MAOIs & BP (see my post). Docs, especially the younger ones, are very reluctant to prescribe the older MAOIs. To date (2yrs+) I have had no BP problems & no hypertensive crisis. The diet is not that restrictive & I've found that I can eat most of the prohibited items in small quantities without consequence. ******I'm NOT advising anyone to do this***** I do stay away from a few foods totally because of what I've read.Your K dosage is low. You should have no problem if you need to stop using it.
Good Luck & Have a Great New Year
hb
Posted by HIBA on January 5, 2003, at 0:51:32
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » HIBA, posted by micky301 on January 4, 2003, at 20:52:25
Hello Micky,
Thanks for your response. The reason why docs still hestitate to deal freely with benzos:
It is upto docs to chose the right medication for the right patient. Some doc see benzos much problematic than antidepressants because of their potential for abuse and dependence, while some are more rational to assess the benefit versus risks ratio and try the benzo route at first. Older antidepressants and newer ones have found to be effective in anxiety disorders,(though not as benzos) but the cost is too high. Whatever pdocs say to you, antidepressants are a life sentence if your disorder is of a chronic nature. That is my experience. Benzos can also be the same, but with a huge difference in the side effect and safety profile. In the case of an overanxious patient, docs usuallly try antidepressant route first hoping that the drug can be withdrawan easily, only to see the same patient a couple of months later in a more disturbed and disorganized state. Then the blame goes to underlying disorders and the possibility of antidepressant induced psychological dependence is conveniently being ignored or unnoticed. Anxiety is often chronic and antidepressants can be a life sentence to such patients, with all those horrible side effects such as memory loss, sexual dysfunction etc. But still some docs vehemently relying on these kind of medications with a frivolous belief that on a bright sunny day before the flood, they can free all their overanxious patients from these chemicals. But if you are unfortunate enough to be categorized in the chronic section, believe me,freedom from medications is not only an illusion, but can be quite unwise also.
So when a long-term therapy is needed, it is wise to chose the safest route. Though not innocuous, benzos are much superior to antidepressants in their safety profiles. They are safer than medicines like aspirin and penicillin. Even decades after their introduction, the controversy over benzos is roughly concentrated on their potential for abuse and dependence. Nothing more to blame. Benzophobics are frequently echoing the same thing. Dependence and withdrawal. That's all. But can't we accept a slight medical dependence in order to function normally? Can't we accept benzo dependence much favourable than a much problematic antidepressant dependence?
HIBA
Posted by FredPotter on January 5, 2003, at 14:28:45
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » syringachalet, posted by johnj on January 3, 2003, at 15:24:03
"only you can cure you" reminds me of when I was very ill and unable to help myself. My health worker turned up because I'd failed to turn up to an appointment. She said, "I can help you but I can't rescue you". I sighed and thought, "quoting from a behaviourist book isn't going to help".
Posted by johnj on January 5, 2003, at 15:58:07
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by FredPotter on January 5, 2003, at 14:28:45
8
Posted by comftnumb on January 5, 2003, at 23:47:44
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » micky301, posted by HIBA on January 5, 2003, at 0:51:32
Ever since I started taking 2mg Klonopin a day in late October my libido has been very low. I have blamed this on a prohormone (1-AD) I started taking at the same time as Klonopin. One of the side effects of 1-AD is decreased libido. However, this side-effect disappears once you stop taking the prohormone.
I stopped taking 1-AD 6 weeks ago but my libido is still shit. I can still perform sexually but the level of arousal is extremely low. I'm starting to think that Klonopin may be playing a role.
Has anyone else experienced low libido on Klonopin. It doesn't seem to be a listed side-effect, so I have been reluctant to mention this to my psychiatrist as of yet.
I can't come up with any other explanation as to why my libido has decreased so much. Thanks in advance!!!
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 5, 2003, at 23:52:31
In reply to Re: Can Klonopin or other benzo cause libido loss?, posted by comftnumb on January 5, 2003, at 23:47:44
Yes it can definately lower libido. Maybe you could try lowering the dose a smidge and see if things improve.
Also it can cause weight gain which you rarely hear about either.
It's still an imperfect world.
Posted by HIBA on January 6, 2003, at 22:48:13
In reply to Re: Can Klonopin or other benzo cause libido loss?, posted by comftnumb on January 5, 2003, at 23:47:44
This is a rare side effect of klonopin. Excessive sedation could be the reason. In such cases, lowering the dosage will help. If sedation is no more needed switching to librium will often solve the problem. Tranxene is another option.
While I was on klonopin, there was no problem with libido on a low dosage (1 mg a day). When I made an increase I had some problems with libido, which resolved over time. (As we know tolerance to the sedative effects often occur and I think that made the difference). Benzodiazepines have no direct adverse effects on sexual function, but the excessive sedation will always dampen libido. Fine tuning of dosage will usually restore the normal desire. Good luck,
HIBA
Posted by Joanie on January 7, 2003, at 13:36:07
In reply to Re: Can Klonopin or other benzo cause libido loss?, posted by comftnumb on January 5, 2003, at 23:47:44
Yes! Yes! Yes! It makes me numb like you and have a total lack of desire. I've noticed if I don't use it for a few days, I have a little desire starting to come back to me.
Posted by worrier on January 11, 2003, at 19:15:35
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » micky301, posted by HIBA on January 5, 2003, at 0:51:32
Just wanted to say that I think you summed things up quite well. I am curious as to why the whole benzo topic gets everyone so emotional. I thought we were here to help each other if we can or at least support each other. I'm sure benzos are not the answer for everyone. I am equally sure they are the answer for some. I happen to be one who has been saved by them. SSRIs brought me to the point of considering suicide and absolutely knowing I would either die or go completely insane. But I would never tell anyone that SSRIs are not the answer. The answer is whatever you as a unique individual can find to get you through. I wish I didn't need any meds, but I most obviously do and think I probably always will. Many of us probably fall into that category. Let's not judge each other based on how our brains respond to a particular chemical. Best wishes to all, worrier.
Posted by irwind on January 22, 2004, at 22:59:29
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » HIBA, posted by worrier on January 11, 2003, at 19:15:35
Is it ok for some one to take benzos for life. do you know of any one who is doing it. i consider the analagy of insulin dependence as in the case of diabetese. i am considering benzos for anxiety and insomnia. there are so many benzos and what is the best worst when it comes to the issue of developing tolerance.
Posted by theo on January 23, 2004, at 9:36:17
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by irwind on January 22, 2004, at 22:59:29
The new Xanax XR provides once daily dosing (half life closer to Klonopin) cutting down on overuse and even discontinuing when and if you need to. My doctor likes this better than Klonopin because it doesn't seem to make people as sluggish and acts more as an AD also.
Posted by Cyrus on January 24, 2004, at 12:35:03
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by irwind on January 22, 2004, at 22:59:29
> Is it ok for some one to take benzos for life. do you know of any one who is doing it. i consider the analagy of insulin dependence as in the case of diabetese. i am considering benzos for anxiety and insomnia. there are so many benzos and what is the best worst when it comes to the issue of developing tolerance.
On them 15 yrs here. Ones with a long half life seem best. With regular Xanax (short half life)it's tough to deal with the "on" again "off" again effects. I alway discuss this topic with my PDoc.
He doesn't see any problem as long as dose is kept as low as necessary. I have never had tolerance develop with valium or librium. Doses of these feel exactly the same as the first time I took them. And yes I dreaded filling the prescription the first time. Just have to respect them.
Forget about alcohol with these, imo. Both effect CNS. Can be quite dangerous to combine.
Posted by Jaynee on January 24, 2004, at 13:13:36
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by Cyrus on January 24, 2004, at 12:35:03
Posted by ian33 on January 24, 2004, at 20:44:20
In reply to The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 25, 2002, at 23:48:30
I think that your comparison with heroin is wrong. Heroin makes you feel 1000% times better than Klonopin and is much much harder to get off. It all depends on the person . I weaned off zanax, which is more addictive than Klonpin. It took nine months but so what? My brother came off of 120 mgs of Oxycontin and 1200 mgs of nuerontin in 10 days. People stop heroin at home . If you can't stop it may be because you have really bad anxiety or you maybe pay too much attention to your symproms as I do.I'm not just saying this bc I take Klonopin but bc I have bad anxiety and I stopped Zanaz which is much worse
Posted by ian33 on January 24, 2004, at 20:46:26
In reply to For some they are (nm), posted by Jaynee on January 24, 2004, at 13:13:36
Yes , I agree.
Posted by irwind on January 25, 2004, at 1:14:45
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by Cyrus on January 24, 2004, at 12:35:03
i am seriously considering benzos as an option for my insomnia problems. i read something in one of the posts previously where some one was clarifying something about benzos and medication in general for psychiatric ilnesses. it said finding the right dose and medication that works for you is a tricky thing and has destroyed lives but the ILLNESS ITSELF IS THE MAJOR REASON FOR DESTROYING LIVES. the second part of the sentence which i have typed in caps. just screamed out at me. it is so true. i personally believe meds dont destroy lives and can only help a person live hi/her life more comfortably, make him a more functional person - basically improve quality of life. i have some concerns about benzos i will be happy if someone can clarify these questions for me. I am aware that people develop tolerance during the course of medication. please some one tell me how often does the dose need to be upped.
i mean i heard some where after a while the whole thing settles down and you really wont need to keep increasing the dose after a particular point.
can any one tell me any thing about my above concern. i mean like how many times approximately will the dose need to be upped before the dose wont need to be altered. one more thing like i am considering this option for long term use may be even life. so what if it mean i have to do it, i will it is probably better than coping without it (benzos that is). is there any serious down side to it. i would like to know.
thanks in advance.
Posted by Tiss on January 25, 2004, at 10:42:51
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » Cyrus, posted by irwind on January 25, 2004, at 1:14:45
This is obviously a very controversial issue but one that I wish would be settled among the medical community but probably never will be. First, have you tried other meds like the SSRI's? They are supposed to be good for anxiety and depression. THey make me manic as all get out so they are out for me. What about the mood stabilizers such as lithium, lamictal,etc? Sometimes they work too. I would say exhaust all options before going the benzo route.I am 47 and have tried so many meds that it's unbelievable and that is how I came to start using the benzos to help me. However, I use them only as directed and am careful with them however I know I'm still dependent on them and it will be hard getting off of them. Are you working with a psychiatrist? That is another thing I would do. GP's can be great but do not in general have a great understanding of psychiatric illnesses. If you do decide to go the benzo route you might try the new Xanax XR (extended release)-once a day dosing that releases the meds slowly throughout the day so the need for taking a bunch of pills and going through 'mini'withdrawals is reduced. Good luck. ALthough the benzos have given me better quality of life I still feel guilty every day about taking them! I wish they made a pill for guilt! Good luck, Tiss
Posted by silmarilone on January 25, 2004, at 20:35:00
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by Tiss on January 25, 2004, at 10:42:51
The reason there is so much pushing of SSRI's etc over benzo's is that there are no new benzo's out there making billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical companies. They will always push newer meds, because that's where the money is. SSRI's and other meds are much worse for you than benzos, from what I've read.
Posted by Alexander on January 26, 2004, at 10:11:27
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by silmarilone on January 25, 2004, at 20:35:00
na na na,
we don't know that, yet. Give it another 10 years.But benzos, while in my opinion a very useful tool has its very devastating disadvantages. ...and I am not talking about tolerance. I am talking of your short-term memory going down the drain.
I believe we must always weigh pro vs. contra, and what we must keep in mind, at all times, is to quality of life, that is to regain quality of life.
My 50 cents
> The reason there is so much pushing of SSRI's etc over benzo's is that there are no new benzo's out there making billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical companies. They will always push newer meds, because that's where the money is. SSRI's and other meds are much worse for you than benzos, from what I've read.
>
>
Posted by scottlaen on January 26, 2004, at 17:32:08
In reply to The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 25, 2002, at 23:48:30
> This drug is seriously one of the most addictive drugs known to man.
- This is a load of crap. Caffeine and Cigarettes are much more addictive. Also - I think you need to distinguish between addictive and habit-forming. While there are some physical withdrawal associate w/all Benzodiazepines, they are not nearly as severe as the drugs you claim are easier to get off of.
I believe I could go through a year long combined cocaine and heroin binge, while still taking my usual nightly dose of clonazepam of course, walk away from the narcotics, and still be at the pharmacist counter the next day awaiting the refill of my beloved/wretched clonazepam RX!
-Lol- if you didn't OD first from your cocaine and heroin binge
Eight years and counting people, with the slightest decrease in my dosage resulting in a sleeplessness night filled with feelings of hell related symptoms.
- Hmm- did you ever think that the medicine was actually effective in treating your condition? Benzodiazepines are safe, have the least side effects, and are the most effective medications for treating many different diseases/conditions including epilepsy, anxiety, panic disorder, and insomnia
Maybe it's just your mental malfunction returning when you mess w/your dosage.
> Any fool on this board who claims clonazepam is not addictive, since it has a relatively long half life, should return their pharmacology degree which was mailed to them. Valium has a long half life, Clonazepam does NOT! This stuff is INCREDIBLY ADDICTIVE!!!!!
wrong- Clonazepam has a very long half-life compared to others in it's class, making it one of the least addictive. Valium has a SHORTER half life, and Xanax has one of the shortest, making it wear off in an hour or even less, making you want to take it more frequently.
Do yourself and the world a favor, stay on your meds- that's why they exist.
Posted by tedar on January 26, 2004, at 18:24:18
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by Alexander on January 26, 2004, at 10:11:27
> na na na,
> we don't know that, yet. Give it another 10 years.
>
> But benzos, while in my opinion a very useful tool has its very devastating disadvantages. ...and I am not talking about tolerance. I am talking of your short-term memory going down the drain.
>
> I believe we must always weigh pro vs. contra, and what we must keep in mind, at all times, is to quality of life, that is to regain quality of life.
>
> My 50 cents
>
> > The reason there is so much pushing of SSRI's etc over benzo's is that there are no new benzo's out there making billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical companies. They will always push newer meds, because that's where the money is. SSRI's and other meds are much worse for you than benzos, from what I've read.
> >
> >
>
>
There is a lot of truth to what you say about the Pharma companies positioning the SSRIs so high, that Benzos have been forced to take a second and third treatment choice.Itwasn't realized until several years after, the extent of sexual dysfunctin the SSRIS caused, as well as apathy, withdrawals and mania etc. But the benzos had picked up such a bad rap, largely because of poor prescribing decisions in the 70s and 80s, that The consumer could easily be manipulated into believing that the SSRIs had to be the ultimate panacea.
Arguably one could say that the Benzos are better drug choices for many patients thsn the SSRIs, as their effects are predictable and impressive,patients actually rarely abuse the Benzos, and the question of major tolerance seems to be controversial, as many psych experts have noted that a majority of their patients, when they reach their most optimal dose, almost never continue to have to increase it.One could argue that the Benzos offer maybe a better path to the future, research wise, than the SSRIs, as much of the current thought points to the Gaba system as potentially offering the best approach route toward future treatment of mood disorders, because they influence not just Serotonin, but seem to influence dopamine and Norepinephrine chemistry as well
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