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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 6:21:29
In reply to Sleep Patterns and Suggestions » BeardedLady, posted by IsoM on December 2, 2002, at 23:29:03
Iso:
I've thought of your great suggestions. My pdoc called me at 9:45 last night. He KNOWS I go to bed at 9:30, but I was in the bathtub trying to prolong my bedtime!
I have a cold, so I only lasted until ten! And the thought of staying up late does frighten me. But I continue to have that thought. After I see this sleep doc from Hopkins, I'll talk to him about your suggestion.
For now, I've upped my Serzone to 400 (it's similar to Remeron but without the weight gain, and my pdoc says that the low dose of Serzone has similar actions to Bu-spar, which I've asked about and will ask about again if this doesn't resolve itself).
My docs all seem to think there's something else going on allowing breakthrough anxiety. But I can't "feel" it. You know? I don't have that nasty stomach feeling or jumpiness and jitters.
Oh, and my nursing times were weird. I'd go to bed after nursing my daughter at 9:00, and I'd wake up at midnight and three sometimes! But I do believe I formed a habit then. Still, not nursing has been the habit for longer than three weeks, so I don't get the part about waking up.
I loved nursing too. I do miss it. I think I also am sad that I can't have another child due to this sleep problem and all the meds. Maybe turning forty was really traumatic for me and I have to come to grips with it.
Sometimes we think we know ourselves, and we haven't skimmed the surface. Last night, I prayed to God for a friend of mine. (I read three stories about scientific studies that show it helps others to pray for them.) I'm not even sure I believe in God! So I just said I was praying to the idea of a God because believing in the idea often helped people through.
Thanks, Iso. You were my first bud here on PB, and you are still as great as ever.
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 6:25:34
In reply to Re: ? about Ativan and/or Serzone--long, but please » BeardedLady, posted by Ritch on December 2, 2002, at 23:14:11
I only take Serzone at bedtime, and I only take the anxiety dose--300. (I was taking a lower-than-therapeutic dose for about 9 months.)
I thought Sonata was perfect for EMAs, which is why I had such luck with it. I'd wake up after four hours, take one, and sleep another four hours. It's a four-hour pill. I'd wake up exactly--to the minute--four hours after I took it.
EMAs suck. But at least we can fall asleep! I'd think it is worse the other way.
Against my better judgment (and yours), I upped my dose last night on advice of my pdoc (and a reminder that I've done this more than once through the years and have still gone back to 250 mg. after my episodes). We'll see.
Thanks for all your help.
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 6:28:25
In reply to Re: ? about Ativan and/or Serzone--long, but please » BeardedLady, posted by Geezer on December 2, 2002, at 22:16:44
Thanks for the kind words.
I've asked to try Remeron a few times, but my pdoc will not give it to me. He says he doesn't know which would make me more miserable: not sleeping or being fat! He guaranteed me twenty pounds on Remeron, as that's been his experience.
a happily thin (but miserably sleepy sometimes) beardy : )>
Posted by utopizen on December 3, 2002, at 6:29:26
In reply to Re: Sleep Patterns and Suggestions » IsoM, posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 6:21:29
My problem is odd- Effexor has been giving me anorgasmia lately (since I upped to 300-- whenever an SSRI dose changes for me this happens for a few weeks).
So I can't release my tension, literally, which perpetuates anxiety, thinking of things not even about sex, but all as a result from having such tension.
So I'm thinking I have anxiety, ADD (which doesn't help-- Adderall 20mg at 7am still pounds my heart at 2 am) is Serzone right for me? I'm taking Effexor XR 300/day and it does nothing.
Posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 7:57:18
In reply to Re: Sleep Patterns and Suggestions, posted by utopizen on December 3, 2002, at 6:29:26
I would certainly ask about it. Pardon my frankness (though on these boards, most already know!), but my orgasms are terrific. My sex drive isn't all that, but I doubt it has to do with Serzone.
Every body is different. How yours will respond to Serzone is a mystery. I didn't respond at all to Zoloft (maybe because I wasn't depressed; I was anxious), and Trazodone pooped after a month, and Xanax was not helpful for sleep unless I had Trazodone, and Gabitril made me sick.
I think there's a way to taper off Effexor while starting Serzone, so you might not have to suffer any withdrawal. My pdoc did this on a few meds, and I never had a problem with that. My worst Serzone side effect was sleepiness, but we simply moved my pill-popping time to bedtime, and I woke up fine. (I am a little slow going in the morning, but I don't know if this is age or pill; I'd say age, as it seems normal.)
So if Effexor is doing NOTHING, it's certainly worth trying something else.
beardy
Posted by utopizen on December 3, 2002, at 8:48:30
In reply to Maybe » utopizen, posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 7:57:18
While we're being franker than we would be if we were on the couch, I'd like to add I think I could achieve a certain climax rather easily if I had a partner involved. Unfortunately the anxiety is stifling my capacity to relate to the opposite sex, so I remain a 19 year old asexual male. Studying about mitosis in biology takes on a whole new meaning to me. ..
Posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 9:48:16
In reply to Re: Maybe, posted by utopizen on December 3, 2002, at 8:48:30
Oh. Sorry. Nineteen, huh? At forty, it seems like at least two decades away.
I was a virgin until I was 19. I met my husband then, though he wasn't my first or only (or my husband yet). Now I've had the same sex partner for 19 years.
Youth is precious. I'd say to try the Serzone. At worst, I think, it could do nothing at all. At best, it could alleviate your anxiety.
beardy
Posted by Ritch on December 3, 2002, at 13:36:44
In reply to Re: Serzone for mood disorder » Mr Cushing, posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 6:11:02
> I also tend to suffer from stress illnesses that didn't bother me when I smoked. Each time I quit smoking, I got something else. Each time I started back up again, all those things went away. I keep thinking I should start smoking again, as I quit when I learned I was pregnant. I think insomnia waited until I was finished nursing to hit me as the smoke-free stress illness.
Ok, this is way out there, but what about giving a med that effects nicotinic receptors a trial? You can't smoke in your sleep, but perhaps you get a rebound withdrawal effect that reduces acetylcholine more drastically than normal when you smoked and you were in the middle of your sleep. Anyhow, here is a link about galantamine:
http://www.galantamine.cc/articles/galantamine-articles-10.htm
It is a new Alzheimer's drug. When I was smoking I was much more focused and calm.
Posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 14:13:08
In reply to Bizarro shot in the dark suggestion » BeardedLady, posted by Ritch on December 3, 2002, at 13:36:44
That is ingenious, really. I don't know if there's a link or a leap, but it's an interesting prospect. I notice they don't list the side effects on that site. And it's so new. I'd like to see what they're prescribing this for besides Alzheimers.
The manufacturers make it sound like some kind of acid trip! See molecules! Remember nit-picky details of the nit that picked at your sweater! Weird.
I suggested to many that I should start smoking again, and most people think it's a ridiculous proposition, as I would then have to worry about cancer and other respiratory problems. But they all agree that it probably would cancel out the other problems!
Thanks, Mitch. Very interesting. And not stupid at all. Here's to being focused and calm.
beardy
Posted by Ritch on December 3, 2002, at 22:02:32
In reply to Bizarro is right, but... » Ritch, posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 14:13:08
> That is ingenious, really. I don't know if there's a link or a leap, but it's an interesting prospect. I notice they don't list the side effects on that site. And it's so new. I'd like to see what they're prescribing this for besides Alzheimers.
>
> The manufacturers make it sound like some kind of acid trip! See molecules! Remember nit-picky details of the nit that picked at your sweater! Weird.
>
> I suggested to many that I should start smoking again, and most people think it's a ridiculous proposition, as I would then have to worry about cancer and other respiratory problems. But they all agree that it probably would cancel out the other problems!
>
> Thanks, Mitch. Very interesting. And not stupid at all. Here's to being focused and calm.
>
> beardyBefore you reach for an EXPENSIVE tax-ridden pack of smokes, you might be able to stick on a nicotine transdermal patch a couple of hours before you go to sleep....?
Posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 7:12:06
In reply to Re: Bizarro is right, but... » BeardedLady, posted by Ritch on December 3, 2002, at 22:02:32
Won't I addict myself all over again? And isn't smoking just sheer joy? Where's the fun?
Nicotine is a stimulant--unless you're addicted. (It would take me a few days to get addicted.) And I think I would have to patch it up thoughout the day and stop at night.
BTW, I upped my Serzone to 400 mg. and slept fine the first night, but last night I took a 2 mg. Ativan at 2:00 a.m. and slept five additional hours.
I just wish the need for the extra drug would go away already.
beardy
Posted by Ritch on December 4, 2002, at 9:13:38
In reply to Now there's a thought... » Ritch, posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 7:12:06
> Won't I addict myself all over again? And isn't smoking just sheer joy? Where's the fun?
>
> Nicotine is a stimulant--unless you're addicted. (It would take me a few days to get addicted.) And I think I would have to patch it up thoughout the day and stop at night.
>
> BTW, I upped my Serzone to 400 mg. and slept fine the first night, but last night I took a 2 mg. Ativan at 2:00 a.m. and slept five additional hours.
>
> I just wish the need for the extra drug would go away already.
>
> beardy
Yes, you would re-addict yourself to nicotine unfortunately. I know some people (family members too), who quit smoking, but they now chew tobacco (blech), and they are still hooked big time, and they don't seem to understand that. I really am wandering about the nicotinic receptor drugs now. If they indirectly boost acetylcholine to provide *more* alertness during the day, then at nighttime there should be a rebound *decline* of acetylcholine (I think it drops anyhow SO you can get to sleep naturally). Perhaps an anticholinergic agent at bedtime would do the trick--try any Benadryl?Mitch
Posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 9:25:57
In reply to Re: Now there's a thought... » BeardedLady, posted by Ritch on December 4, 2002, at 9:13:38
When this happened more than four years ago, I took benedryl on the advice of my pharmacist. I took it at nine. At 11:00, I was in the emergency room--flying. They pumped me full of valium and sent me home. I fell asleep from midnight to five. And then I was wired again and hysterical.
Thanks for the thoughts. I'd rather just have a smoke, frankly, than do any of this. I really do believe that smoking cessation caused this.
I can say that because it caused dermititis, which went away when I started back up again; reflux, which went away a year later when I started back up again; TMJ--with the worst headaches known to man, which went away as soon as I started smoking again.
I'm reasonably sure that the stress of childbirth and multiple deaths of beloved family members was simply too much to take without a cigarette. That will be the topic of today's therapy session.
To smoke or not to smoke,
that is the question.
Whether 'tis rational in the mind to suffer
the panic and anxiety of incurable insomnia
or to take Marlboros against the sea of troubles
and by smoking end them. To smoke, to sleep--
no more--and by smoking say we end
the headaches and the billion stress illnesses
that cessation is heir to.beardy
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 4, 2002, at 10:00:09
In reply to Benedryl » Ritch, posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 9:25:57
Beardy, I think your insomnia problem is a little bit too bad for Benadryl to do anything. Sure, MDs always say to try Benadryl. I used to have my night table drawers full of different over the counter sleeping aids. I haven't found one that worked.Once I was so desperate for sleep that I drank about a whole bottle of NyQuil (you know, the big F'ing Q) and just laid there all night with a really strong buzz.
So you can try it, but I'll doubt if it will work.
Posted by utopizen on December 4, 2002, at 10:39:24
In reply to Re: Benedryl, posted by Mr Cushing on December 4, 2002, at 10:00:09
All OTC night aids are Benadryl.
Read the active ingredient.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2002, at 11:00:29
In reply to Benedryl » Ritch, posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 9:25:57
I think that you might need to get your depression under control to beat the insomnia. I'm having an upsurge of depression right now, and early morning awakenings are becoming part of my normal day. Usually 3am for me. Then I just lie there feeling miserable unless I knock myself out with Klonopin, and sometimes even then. Even when I sleep it's off and on, feeling like I'm not sleeping at all, although my husband tells me I'm snoring so I must be.
Perhaps a more effective antidepressant would do more good than a sleeping agent, although I realize they feed each other. I'd start one myself if I weren't relatively confident that my moods never last long enough for an antidepressant to start to work.
Good luck with finding a solution. Insomnia is rotten, especially the sort that doesn't come with hypomania. I'm not even up posting and working while I'm awake, just feeling miserable.
Dinah
Posted by Ritch on December 4, 2002, at 13:27:43
In reply to Benedryl » Ritch, posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 9:25:57
> When this happened more than four years ago, I took benedryl on the advice of my pharmacist. I took it at nine. At 11:00, I was in the emergency room--flying. They pumped me full of valium and sent me home. I fell asleep from midnight to five. And then I was wired again and hysterical.
>
> Thanks for the thoughts. I'd rather just have a smoke, frankly, than do any of this. I really do believe that smoking cessation caused this.
>
> I can say that because it caused dermititis, which went away when I started back up again; reflux, which went away a year later when I started back up again; TMJ--with the worst headaches known to man, which went away as soon as I started smoking again.
>
> I'm reasonably sure that the stress of childbirth and multiple deaths of beloved family members was simply too much to take without a cigarette. That will be the topic of today's therapy session.
>
> To smoke or not to smoke,
> that is the question.
> Whether 'tis rational in the mind to suffer
> the panic and anxiety of incurable insomnia
> or to take Marlboros against the sea of troubles
> and by smoking end them. To smoke, to sleep--
> no more--and by smoking say we end
> the headaches and the billion stress illnesses
> that cessation is heir to.
>
> beardyCool poem! Interesting (and scary) paradoxical reaction to the Benadryl.... I was actually interested in what your pdoc would say or what your experiences were with it previously (just a suggestion). Many people who are and have been heavy smokers tend to have dopamine dysfunction of some kind. I used to smoke 3 to 3 1/2 packs a day for many years. Perhaps if you drank coffee or tried a stimulant at bedtime you would sleep (given your paradoxical reaction to a sedative/antihistamine).?---Mitch
Posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 13:34:20
In reply to Re: Benedryl » BeardedLady, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2002, at 11:00:29
> I think that you might need to get your depression under control to beat the insomnia.
I've upped my Serzone dose to the therapeutic depression dose (400 mg.). It's an AD, so it's supposed to work on that. I've never been depressed, however, so I've never had to take it for that. Actually, just saw my therapist and he agrees that I'm only depressed because I'm not sleeping. Vicious circle.
>I'm having an upsurge of depression right now, and early morning awakenings are becoming part of my normal day.
I'm sorry for you. What time is bed time? Mine is 10, now, so I sleep for about four hours before I wake. Then I do the same as you, only with Ativan.
Oh, therapist said that so many of his clients right now are suffering and have been suffering unusual depression for the past two months. No one can pinpoint reasons, so they don't seem situational. He said it's the worst wave of depression he's seen in a long time.
>Even when I sleep it's off and on, feeling like I'm not sleeping at all, although my husband tells me I'm snoring so I must be.
Same here.
> Perhaps a more effective antidepressant would do more good than a sleeping agent, although I realize they feed each other.
I'll be getting a second opinion soon from the leading sleep doctor here. I don't know why he wasn't my first opinion when all this started.
Thanks, Dinah. Best of luck. You have really seemed a changed person (in a good way) lately. Whatever you're doing seems to be working for you, at least from the superficial place I sit.
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 14:43:36
In reply to Re: Benedryl, posted by Mr Cushing on December 4, 2002, at 10:00:09
But I reserve the stuff for when I'm sick, as my head tingles the next day!
beardy
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 4, 2002, at 15:41:09
In reply to Nyquil--one adult dose does it for me! I'm toast! » Mr Cushing, posted by BeardedLady on December 4, 2002, at 14:43:36
lol... really? Damn... I guess my insomnia was REALLY bad. I could gobble those things down like candy, and even though they would give me a killer buzz, I'd still sit there and watch infomercials all night because my head just wouldn't shut up.
Posted by Tabitha on December 5, 2002, at 1:07:11
In reply to Re: Nyquil--one adult dose does it for me! I'm toast!, posted by Mr Cushing on December 4, 2002, at 15:41:09
Lately I've been using Seroquel for sleep. My insomnia is the anxious, can't-shut-off-my-brain kind. The Seroquel just stops the little worry motor in its tracks, and I lie there for a few blissful minutes then fall asleep. Ahhhh. I sleep thru the night but feel a little groggy the next day.
Posted by justyourlaugh on December 5, 2002, at 11:17:08
In reply to Re: Seroquel... ZzzzzzZzzzzzZzzzz, posted by Tabitha on December 5, 2002, at 1:07:11
hi tab-
i want to increase my seroquel at night.
how much are you on?
i am worried about not hearing the kids if they get up at night.
cant feel too groggy in the am either-
it worked so much better a few weeks ago.
can one easily become dependant?
thanks
jyl
Posted by Tabitha on December 6, 2002, at 23:26:24
In reply to Re: Seroquel... ZzzzzzZzzzzzZzzzz » Tabitha, posted by justyourlaugh on December 5, 2002, at 11:17:08
I only take one of the tiny pills. I'm not so sure it's the answer for me though, last night it didn't work so I took an Ambien on top of it. Maybe it only helps when it's purely anxiety keeping me awake.
I do sleep like the dead on it-- when the alarm went off this morning I dreamed about an alarm clock going off for a long time instead of waking up.
Posted by Mal on December 7, 2002, at 4:11:54
In reply to Frank » utopizen, posted by BeardedLady on December 3, 2002, at 9:48:16
Beardy, I hope you are blissfully sleeping this morning. Sorry to hear you have had trouble for a couple of months now. I woke this morning at 2:30, and look what time it is! Agh! Luckily I don't have to work today... If you are rebuilding your email address book, I am at mal010771 at yahoo dot com. I'd love to hear how your "Midlife Crisis" piece is coming... You take care!! MAL
Posted by BeardedLady on December 7, 2002, at 11:56:05
In reply to Sleeping » BeardedLady, posted by Mal on December 7, 2002, at 4:11:54
Hi, Mal. Nice to hear from you.
Sleeping is still not going. Last night was the first night in EVER that I can remember when I couldn't fall asleep. I took 400 mg. Serzone at 10:00, and I was still up at 11:15. I kept jerking my leg--I'd dream I was falling in a hole and wake up. Once that happened twice, I couldn't get my body to relax. Anyway, took an Ativan (2mg) at 11:40, and I slept until 7:10. So I got the sleep. And I'm not feeling tooooooooo depressed due to the Serzone increase. But I really need to get to the bottom of this.
Maybe I should be off Serzone and just use Ativan for sleeping.
I don't feel like dicking with this stuff, ya know? It's been working, with only minor glitches and adjustments, for so many years. Something has to be going on inside my head. I don't know what.
Thanks for asking. And check your mail!
beardy
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