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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cisco on February 8, 2002, at 22:20:38
Reese:
Please read all you can about this so-called opioid. There is a clear and present danger of SEIZURES! It is an inferior and sadly ineffective drug . Yet, withdrawals from this monster rival that of Heroin.
Buprenorphine has so much going for it, if I were you, I would not settle for that Crap called Ultram. Why are there so many incompetent, fearful Doctors out there!!!!
Just My $.02Cisco
Posted by Elizabeth on February 9, 2002, at 1:22:05
In reply to DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol , posted by cisco on February 8, 2002, at 22:20:38
> Please read all you can about this so-called opioid. There is a clear and present danger of SEIZURES!
I think that's very rare. Like, on the level of serotonin syndrome with SSRIs. The only people who really need to be careful, I think, are those with a history of seizures. I'd be more scared of Demerol than of Ultram.
Yes, it's a weak opioid. But it's just lame -- not seriously dangerous (in general). Taking huge doses would be bad. That's why doctors take the dose recommendation seriously (although I suspect that even that recommendation is very conservative).
Do you want to hear about something even lamer than Ultram? Ultracet! (I'm not kidding. This is real. *sigh*)
-elizabeth
Posted by cisco on February 9, 2002, at 14:45:25
In reply to tramadol not all that bad » cisco, posted by Elizabeth on February 9, 2002, at 1:22:05
Dear Elizabeth:
You're right. I was using scare tactics regarding Tramadol. I wanted to make sure that Reese was aware of the problems associated with this drug.
Utracet! What a lovely name. What a lousy drug. Brilliant - Tramadol and Paracetamol. What will they think of next?
How about Tylecet? Acetaminphen and Paracetamol.Are there like these huge stockpiles of Paracetamol somewhere? Where diabolical chemists are feverishly trying to create new 'Cet' compounds?
I think we will see Tylenol banned some day. Ten million blown out livers can't be wrong!
Cisco
Posted by Kristi on February 9, 2002, at 22:37:26
In reply to DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol , posted by cisco on February 8, 2002, at 22:20:38
> Reese:
>
> Please read all you can about this so-called opioid. There is a clear and present danger of SEIZURES! It is an inferior and sadly ineffective drug . Yet, withdrawals from this monster rival that of Heroin.
You can't possibly be serious?!?! Geez, heroin withdrawal isn't what it's cracked up to be. Sorry for the sarcasm, but you just can't be speaking from experience. Just my 2 cents.
> Buprenorphine has so much going for it, if I were you, I would not settle for that Crap called Ultram. Why are there so many incompetent, fearful Doctors out there!!!!
> Just My $.02
>
> Cisco
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 12:10:59
In reply to Re: tramadol not all that bad, posted by cisco on February 9, 2002, at 14:45:25
> I was using scare tactics regarding Tramadol.
The idea here is to educate others, not to scare them. Please don't exaggerate or over-generalize.
Bob
PS: Any follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by cisco on February 10, 2002, at 21:22:38
In reply to Re: DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol , posted by Kristi on February 9, 2002, at 22:37:26
Dear Christi:
Before you call BS on Ultram withdrawal's, I suggest you do a little research on the subject.
I'll admit that I have never taken Tramadol. I chose NOT to take this medication because the negatives outweighed the Positives.
There is a component to this drug's withdrawal syndrome, that is reportedly more difficult to tolerate than Oxycodone, a schedule II drug that is equipotent to Morphine.
My point is simply that Tramadol's risk/reward profile should be seriously studied by anyone considering it's use.
Cisco
Posted by Kristi on February 10, 2002, at 22:09:01
In reply to Re: DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol , posted by cisco on February 10, 2002, at 21:22:38
> Dear Christi:
>
> Before you call BS on Ultram withdrawal's, I suggest you do a little research on the subject.I have my own experience with stopping it. I never had a single withdrawal symptom..... I'm just saying you really shouldnt say things that could potentially terrify people. Heroin withdrawal? I haven't experienced that one, but please..... anyone out there who is planning on going off........ I did..... I had zero problems. That's my only point...
>
> I'll admit that I have never taken Tramadol. I chose NOT to take this medication because the negatives outweighed the Positives.
>
> There is a component to this drug's withdrawal syndrome, that is reportedly more difficult to tolerate than Oxycodone, a schedule II drug that is equipotent to Morphine.
Now... here I can compare. I was out of work for 3 weeks.... due to oxycodone withdrawal. It was awful, and I didn't take it for very long. Compared to my year of ultram...... I just don't see how you can possibly compare the two..... especially having said you've never taken it.
>
> My point is simply that Tramadol's risk/reward profile should be seriously studied by anyone considering it's use.
Maybe you also need to do some research. Sure, I have no doubt some experience withdrawal. But compare it to others...... that's the real research.
>
> Cisco
Posted by cisco on February 11, 2002, at 2:22:59
In reply to Re: DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol » cisco, posted by Kristi on February 10, 2002, at 22:09:01
Dear Kristi:
Alright. I'll try it again, since I'm just not getting through.
I took Effexor for 9 months. I did not renew my prescription, as I did not care to pay my P-Doc the $75.00 'Tip Money' for a Med-Check. Stopping Effexor is no problem for me. Yet there are quite a few people who say stopping Effexor Cold Turkey is not a good thing.
So, just because you have had a good experience with Tramadol, does not invalidate the fact that MANY people experience SEVERE withdrawal symptoms when discontinuing this drug.
And that is on top of the fact that this is a drug with marginal effectiveness as a painkiller. Prescribing it as an anti-depressant, instead of Buprenorphine, borders on the absurd.
That was the topic of the original thread, by the way.
Buprenorphine has real long-term potential. Thousands of people suffering from intractable depression, Chronic Pain, and Opioid Dependency, could benefit from use of this remarkable Drug.
Tramadol, on the other hand, offers low level pain relief, coupled with a high liability for addiction, severe withdrawals, and abstinence syndrome. In addition, Tramadol lowers the seizure threshold for a statistically significant percentage of the population.
That is a lot of risk for a medication that rivals Ibuprofen, or propoxyphene, for pain relief!
If you have no interest in researching Tramadol, that's fine. But I would ask you think twice before you recommend it as safe, relatively benign drug. That is one thing it is not.
That's all I will write on this subject.
Later. Much Later.
Cisco
Posted by Kristi on February 11, 2002, at 2:30:46
In reply to Re: DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol, posted by cisco on February 11, 2002, at 2:22:59
> Dear Kristi:
>
> Alright. I'll try it again, since I'm just not getting through.
>
> I took Effexor for 9 months. I did not renew my prescription, as I did not care to pay my P-Doc the $75.00 'Tip Money' for a Med-Check. Stopping Effexor is no problem for me. Yet there are quite a few people who say stopping Effexor Cold Turkey is not a good thing.
>
> So, just because you have had a good experience with Tramadol, does not invalidate the fact that MANY people experience SEVERE withdrawal symptoms when discontinuing this drug.
>
> And that is on top of the fact that this is a drug with marginal effectiveness as a painkiller. Prescribing it as an anti-depressant, instead of Buprenorphine, borders on the absurd.
>
> That was the topic of the original thread, by the way.
>
> Buprenorphine has real long-term potential. Thousands of people suffering from intractable depression, Chronic Pain, and Opioid Dependency, could benefit from use of this remarkable Drug.
>
> Tramadol, on the other hand, offers low level pain relief, coupled with a high liability for addiction, severe withdrawals, and abstinence syndrome. In addition, Tramadol lowers the seizure threshold for a statistically significant percentage of the population.
>
> That is a lot of risk for a medication that rivals Ibuprofen, or propoxyphene, for pain relief!
>
> If you have no interest in researching Tramadol, that's fine. But I would ask you think twice before you recommend it as safe, relatively benign drug. That is one thing it is not.
>
> That's all I will write on this subject.
>
> Later. Much Later.
>
> Cisco
I must admit..... your response here has made me kind of laugh... and I needed that. Thanks. Where did I ever say it was a safe benign drug? I just didn't believe you should have said it compares to heroin. Relax dude.... there is really no need to take it so personally.
Posted by Elizabeth on February 11, 2002, at 8:56:59
In reply to Re: tramadol not all that bad, posted by cisco on February 9, 2002, at 14:45:25
> You're right. I was using scare tactics regarding Tramadol. I wanted to make sure that Reese was aware of the problems associated with this drug.
Yeah, I know -- just doing a reality check. :-)
I seriously don't think the risk of seizures, in particular, is nearly as bad as you make it out to be. And that's the only serious risk. Tramadol does cause withdrawal symptoms for many people who take it for a long time, but this is subject to a lot of variation -- it's not comparable to withdrawing from heroin (or, for that matter, methadone).
It's *much* easier to convince an American physician to prescribe Ultram than it is to convince them to prescribe a controlled opioid, even a mild one like buprenorphine.
In regard to efficacy, there are quite a few people who may not notice much effect from Ultram for pharmacokinetic reasons. Ultram didn't work for me at all (probably because of said pharmacokinetic reasons), but I don't think it should be demonized. It *does* work for a lot of people, and there have been documented, published cases in which it was used successfully for psychiatric disorders, so prescribing it as an AD is not at all "absurd." It *does* work for a whole lot of people. It's a mild opioid, which means it's not going to have as powerful an effect as fentanyl (or even hydrocodone), but don't be so quick to write it off completely.
> Utracet! What a lovely name. What a lousy drug. Brilliant - Tramadol and Paracetamol. What will they think of next?
Well, to play devil's advocate, Ultram at least has *some* effect (its active metabolite is really responsible for most of its effect, I think). I'm not so convinced about paracetamol/APAP.
> How about Tylecet? Acetaminphen and Paracetamol.
*giggle*
> Are there like these huge stockpiles of Paracetamol somewhere? Where diabolical chemists are feverishly trying to create new 'Cet' compounds?
Because in the U.S., that often reduces their Controlled Substance status. Ultram isn't a controlled substance here right now, but the approval of Ultracet signals that it probably will be soon.
> I think we will see Tylenol banned some day. Ten million blown out livers can't be wrong!
As far as I can tell, the principle behind "cet"ing a drug is to make it safer by adding a toxin. (I really don't buy the idea that if someone needs oxycodone for pain control, the APAP in Percocet will make any difference.)
-elizabeth
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 13, 2002, at 8:53:24
In reply to Re: DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol , posted by Kristi on February 9, 2002, at 22:37:26
kristi,
I am currently helping 2 friends get off heroin, and I can assure you that it is a bad as its made out.. they are both going through hell.
Nikki
> > Reese:
> >
> > Please read all you can about this so-called opioid. There is a clear and present danger of SEIZURES! It is an inferior and sadly ineffective drug . Yet, withdrawals from this monster rival that of Heroin.
>
>
> You can't possibly be serious?!?! Geez, heroin withdrawal isn't what it's cracked up to be. Sorry for the sarcasm, but you just can't be speaking from experience. Just my 2 cents.
> > Buprenorphine has so much going for it, if I were you, I would not settle for that Crap called Ultram. Why are there so many incompetent, fearful Doctors out there!!!!
> > Just My $.02
> >
> > Cisco
Posted by Kristi on February 13, 2002, at 11:39:03
In reply to Re: DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol » Kristi, posted by NikkiT2 on February 13, 2002, at 8:53:24
> kristi,
>
> I am currently helping 2 friends get off heroin, and I can assure you that it is a bad as its made out.. they are both going through hell.
>
> Nikki
>
I'm sorry..... that's so tough. Oh, I know it's hell..... that's why I was so shocked when someone compared ultram withdrawal to it. I was offended by that...because I have also seen first hand .... and I believe it's the worst in the world. Please don't think I was minimizing heroin withdrawal.....the opposite!!!!I wish you the best of luck........ and I'm sorry you and your friends are even going thru it . Take care, Kristi
> > > Reese:
> > >
> > > Please read all you can about this so-called opioid. There is a clear and present danger of SEIZURES! It is an inferior and sadly ineffective drug . Yet, withdrawals from this monster rival that of Heroin.
> >
> >
> > You can't possibly be serious?!?! Geez, heroin withdrawal isn't what it's cracked up to be. Sorry for the sarcasm, but you just can't be speaking from experience. Just my 2 cents.
> > > Buprenorphine has so much going for it, if I were you, I would not settle for that Crap called Ultram. Why are there so many incompetent, fearful Doctors out there!!!!
> > > Just My $.02
> > >
> > > Cisco
Posted by LisaG on November 15, 2002, at 10:58:14
In reply to Re: DO NOT EVEN THINK about taking Tramadol, posted by cisco on February 11, 2002, at 2:22:59
Hi!
I really need some good information from someone who has had experience in taking 'Ultracet'. I have severe tension headaches that my doctor seems to think are associated with the fact that I have had Viral Menningitis about 7 times in the past 15 years. I have had 5 spinal taps to determine that I have indeed had menningitis. My problem is that my doctor in Michigan had me on fiorecet w/codiene for about five years and it's the only medication that worked. But, we did try everything else before we found this drug. Anyway, my doctor now in Colorado, has prescribed Indomethacin 50mgs 3x a day as needed? (I don't understand that). Neurontin 100mg capsules 3x's a day for one year, and Ultracet 1 tab 4x's a day for pain. Here is my problem, it's not working. I have had an terrible headache for the last three days and my doctor says that I have to give it time to work. Why do doctors think they are God's and that they know more then their patients when they are trying to figure out what is best for the patient. I have been on Ultercet before and I told him it didn't work for me. But he insist that with the Neurontin, it should work great and it is non habit forming. Could someone please help me. I don't know what to do. Can I change doctors without getting into trouble? If I do change doctors, how will I know that the new doctor won't do the same thing to me. I am pretty upset right now because I am the one who has to suffer with these headaches, while they sit back and say, hmmm...., ok, lets try this one then... etc....
Please help!
Lisa G
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