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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lilsis on October 24, 2002, at 10:10:18
Hey i just got back from the drug counsilor and i was wondering could my depression be caused due to doing xtc and coke because weren`t the two created to help cure depression. anyhelp would be great
Posted by Mr Cushing on October 24, 2002, at 10:37:43
In reply to MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by lilsis on October 24, 2002, at 10:10:18
Damn, bummer... I sent you this answer on your MSN and your Mom responded... bad Mike.......Anyways, my Doctor said when I asked her the same question whether all the stuff I did as a teen could have triggered of my Bi-Polar disorder and this is what she told me.
That the only instances where she found that "street drugs" did anything for a person's mental health is IF the person had a tendency towards psychotic episodes. For example, I have a good friend who's skitzophrenic and whenever he smoked weed, it was bad, he would change, whenever he did anything else... It was best to just stay FAR away from him. Using those drugs could have been what triggered off his situation in the first place.
But for depression, anxiety disorders, and Bi-Polar, she didn't think that any of the drugs that "I" did in the past, and God knows there were LOTS of them, has anything to do with the way I am now. She does think that when you're going through an episode though, or when you're first starting your treatment on a new medication, that you should remain as sober as possible because then they could have adverse reactions.
I'm always VERY open with my Doctor about my Party Lifestyle so I hope that helps.
Posted by linkadge on October 24, 2002, at 11:07:56
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by Mr Cushing on October 24, 2002, at 10:37:43
MDMA selectivly destroys seretonin neurons,
and long term Cocane use can often triggers
psychosis in non psychotic individuals,
hence the term cocane-psychosis. Stay away
from these drugs, they are illegal for a reason.So in short, yes many street drugs can
trigger mental illness. Some people
think that heroin used makes permanant
changes in the brain, and that is why
an user will always crave the drug to some
extentLinkadge
Posted by utopizen on October 24, 2002, at 11:44:05
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by Mr Cushing on October 24, 2002, at 10:37:43
While your doctor is correct in saying drugs can trigger psychotic tendancies, she is incorrect in assuming the tendances must exist to any extent before taking the drug.
I've never heard of cocaine-induced psychosis, but amphetamine psychosis is its own mental disorder, and treated differently than a general psychosis.
If you take enough amphetamine, without enough sleep, I believe an amphetamine psychosis will find you, no matter how mentally stable you were before you took the amphetamine... unless it just so happens a lot of the people who binge the amphetamines happen to be psychotic, which I doubt as statistically realistic.
Also, Ectasy is pretty well-documented on the whole chronic use of it being linked to depression. Likadge is totally right. There is a guy trying to get the FDA to put it as a schedule III (wtf? You'd think Schedule II would be asking a lot!) for PTSD. This guy is pretty out there, and this will probably do more harm than good.
For some reason interviewers never seem to ask Shulgin about this... who knows, maybe it's incorrect. But I have read message posts on the web of ectasy users linking their depression to chronic ectasy abuse.
Then again, it's also simply possible than your depression comes for biochemical reasons unrelated to your drug use. The world will never know, and it's all that greedy owl's fault for eating the tootsie roll pop... greedy owl. I really wanted to know how many licks it took to finish the pop!
> Damn, bummer... I sent you this answer on your MSN and your Mom responded... bad Mike.......
>
> Anyways, my Doctor said when I asked her the same question whether all the stuff I did as a teen could have triggered of my Bi-Polar disorder and this is what she told me.
>
> That the only instances where she found that "street drugs" did anything for a person's mental health is IF the person had a tendency towards psychotic episodes. For example, I have a good friend who's skitzophrenic and whenever he smoked weed, it was bad, he would change, whenever he did anything else... It was best to just stay FAR away from him. Using those drugs could have been what triggered off his situation in the first place.
>
> But for depression, anxiety disorders, and Bi-Polar, she didn't think that any of the drugs that "I" did in the past, and God knows there were LOTS of them, has anything to do with the way I am now. She does think that when you're going through an episode though, or when you're first starting your treatment on a new medication, that you should remain as sober as possible because then they could have adverse reactions.
>
> I'm always VERY open with my Doctor about my Party Lifestyle so I hope that helps.
Posted by oracle on October 24, 2002, at 11:56:40
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by linkadge on October 24, 2002, at 11:07:56
> MDMA selectivly destroys seretonin neurons,
Actually, the studies show "changes" in rats.
No human studies on structure and MDMA exist.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2002, at 13:58:09
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by oracle on October 24, 2002, at 11:56:40
I would think it would be very likely that psychotropic drugs of any sort (including street drugs and prescribed drugs) might permanently change the wiring in our brains. Along with chronic stress, life experiences, dietary choice, hormonal action, etc. Why would we think otherwise? And while some changes might reverse themselves, others might not. And perhaps even reverseability varies from person to person.
I am currently reading "The Synaptic Self" which argues that nature and nurture both act to wire our brain to respond in certain ways through the same medium, our synapses.
My intuitive feeling would be that any brain insult could cause long lasting changes in a vulnerable individual. I'll wait to finish reading the book to weigh the scientific evidence of my feeling.
Posted by Phil on October 25, 2002, at 7:09:59
In reply to Re: MDMA How you think I got this way!!!!!!!!, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2002, at 13:58:09
We don't read what the average American reads, do we? I have friends that read the usual fare for enjoyment and can't understand why I get my kicks reading, "Psychopharmacology:Pill Shapes, Colors, and Beyond." "Constipation in the 21st Century"
"Beyond Ex Lax" "I Can't Remember if I took My Meds-A Way Out of Hell" "I Used to Have Orgasm's, Now I Have Cramps" "How to Deal with AD Weight Gain-Great Mumu's Throughout History."
"Group Therapy;Those Bastards. A Memoir."Phil
I hope that doesn't end up on the suggested reading list.
Posted by Dinah on October 25, 2002, at 8:55:41
In reply to Re: MDMA How you think I got this way!!!!!!!! » Dinah, posted by Phil on October 25, 2002, at 7:09:59
Posted by djmmm on October 25, 2002, at 13:01:44
In reply to MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by lilsis on October 24, 2002, at 10:10:18
MDMA causes neurotoxicity, and anyone who says otherwise is blatently ignoring 30 years of research.
Although there are no specific MDMA/human studies (regarding Neurotoxicity) that I can think of, there are comparison studies to other ring substituted amphetamines like fenfluramine (pondimin) part of the phen-fen combo.
All of the human studies of Pondimin show conclusively that this drug causes a decrease in serotonin (5-ht) and multiple impairments in 5-HT function, along with dramatic decreases in postmortem tissue levels of 5-HT in numerous brain areas. The MDMA studies, show the exact same "markers"
MDMA was not created as an antidepressant, it was simply developed, like many other chemicals, patented, and then shelved
Posted by utopizen on October 25, 2002, at 13:13:42
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by djmmm on October 25, 2002, at 13:01:44
Shulgrin patented MDMA? I forgot about this one... do you know what year?
Anyway, "neurotoxicity" has a long way to go as a science. A lot of it relies on animal models. In monkeys, methamphetamine shows black areas of killed off white matter at small doses. Geez, let's let the FDA know that this must mean methamphetamine is neurotoxic as therapeutic levels!
Well, luckily we are all wise enough to know this means that meth is neurotoxic in chimps, and don't jump to any conclusions. So unless studies conclusively point to human markers that show neurotoxicity, let's not read too much in to these.
It's interesting you brough up phen. "Phen-phen" actually showed great safety results in animal testing. Only after human trials after it hit the market did we learn of its hyptensive effects. Another reason not to bet your life on animal studies.
People joke about being treated like a guinea pig. But how great is it to risk your life on drugs made by companies that can't tell the anatomical differences between a guinea pig and a human? The two don't always extrapolate out. Heck, reading this point will let anyone realize it's hard enough just to extrapolate from one HUMAN to another human! As Dr. Greek said in Sacred Cows, Golden Geese: The Human Cost of Animal Experiments, multiply these problems by a thousand when you use animal tests.
Posted by oracle on October 25, 2002, at 14:54:35
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by djmmm on October 25, 2002, at 13:01:44
> MDMA causes neurotoxicity, and anyone who says otherwise is blatently ignoring 30 years of research.
I think, rather, you are ignoring that fact that
neurology is in its infancy and we cannot tell
changes from neurotoxicity.
Posted by djmmm on October 26, 2002, at 10:41:30
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by utopizen on October 25, 2002, at 13:13:42
Merck patented MDMA in 1913...shulgin messed around with it in the 50's (?)
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2002, at 10:56:01
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by utopizen on October 25, 2002, at 13:13:42
> As Dr. Greek said in Sacred Cows, Golden Geese: The Human Cost of Animal Experiments, multiply these problems by a thousand when you use animal tests.
I'd just like to plug the new double double quote feature. But I don't mean to be pushy. Did you deliberately not use it to link to Amazon? If so, I'd be interested in why, over at PBA:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by utopizen on October 26, 2002, at 18:25:53
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by djmmm on October 26, 2002, at 10:41:30
> Merck patented MDMA in 1913...shulgin messed around with it in the 50's (?)
>
>right! Appetite suppressant, I believe, but short-lived. Gosh, I had some faint rememberance of this, but forgot.
Posted by Shawn. T. on October 27, 2002, at 4:26:24
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by utopizen on October 26, 2002, at 18:25:53
Merck actually filed for the MDMA patent in 1912 and received it in 1914. A German chemist, Fritz Haber, first synthesized MDMA in 1891. See http://www.mdma.net/ for a massive dose of MDMA information. I'm currently helping the author with the task of describing the drug's mechanism of action in the brain. I'm eventually going to write a detailed analysis of the connections that recreational drugs have to GABAergic medium spiny neurons in the nucleus accumbens to go along with the report, but I've been sidetracked a bit recently. Note that the report mentions 5-HT2 receptors existing as GABA heteroreceptors in the VTA, although I personally find this claim to be unfounded (I'm currently trying to track down substantial evidence regarding this issue).
As for arguments that MDMA does not have neurotoxic properties in humans, they are in opposition to a significant amount of evidence to the contrary. Arguments have been made that 5-HT2A receptors mediate the neurotoxic effects of MDMA in addition to causing increases in extracellular dopamine. 5-HT1B receptors also mediate the euphoric effects of the drug, but they're not related to neurotoxicity. As far as the actual destruction of serotonin and/or dopamine neurons seen in test animals, massive repeated doses of MDMA are required to achieve these results. The real issue at hand involves damage to serotonergic axon terminals in the brain. This sort of neurotoxicity requires repetitive dosing of above average doses of MDMA. Taking MDMA on a regular basis is not a good idea; the tolerance induced requires higher doses to achieve the same effect, and therein lies the biggest danger. One thing that might not be evident is that the axons can grow back over the span of several weeks. This doesn't mean that more lasting damage is unlikely; serotonergic reinnervation patterns will be altered in a heavy MDMA user's healing brain. I strongly disagree with the notion that regular MDMA use by itself, especially when a person redoses during a single day, will not damage serotonergic axon terminals in the human brain.
As for the exact mechanism at work in MDMA neurotoxicity, the most likely explanation seems to be that excessive oxidation of free intracellular serotonin and/or dopamine plays a key role. My personal theory is that something called the vesicular monoamine transporter-2 (VMAT-2) might be involved. Researchers have found that the inhibition of VMAT-2 by methamphetamine is the primary cause of its neurotoxic effects. MDMA also inhibits VMAT-2 activity, although in a slightly different manner than METH. Decreased VMAT-2 activity caused by MDMA could result in increased levels of free intracellular dopamine and/or serotonin. High levels of intracellular monoamines result in increased oxidation in a neuron. This oxidation causes a rise in the levels of free radicals, which are known to cause cell damage. I'm personally fond of this explanation because it takes into account a key difference between MDMA and the serotonin releasing drug fenfluramine, which does not share a similar neurotoxic profile. The key difference is of course MDMA's effect on VMAT-2. Note that both drugs cause serotonin release from cells, but in a different manner. Given the similarities between METH and MDMA, there seems to be precedence for this sort of argument.
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/300/3/1093
Shawn
Posted by djmmm on October 27, 2002, at 10:15:02
In reply to Re: MDMA HOW YOU THINK I GOT THIS WAY!!!!!!!!, posted by Shawn. T. on October 27, 2002, at 4:26:24
great info, thanks.
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