![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sudhira on October 5, 2002, at 0:43:15
I was wondering if anyone has information regarding how long it takes to determine whether a stimulant is effective or not.
I'm on a trial of dexedrine spansules (as an augment to ad's) and after 4 days I met with my pdoc and told him that I didn't feel positive about it. I take 10 mg in the morning and I experience physical anxiety and mood drop after 3 or 4 hours. I would really like to try adderall--i've read that even the immediate release form is relatively long-lasting and smooth.
I was advised to increase the dose so I took 20mg in the morning yesterday. I was ok for 3 or so hours (though I didn't experience much mood or attention support) then I felt anxious and awful until early evening. So, perhaps a divided dose?
My pdoc says we shouldn't jump around too quickly, that sometimes the body needs to adjust to a stimulant. How long does this take? I thought one of the advantages of stimulants was that you didn't need to wait weeks to know if it's a match.
I'm annoyed that he's so resistant to letting me try adderall. My instinct tells me it may be a better choice for me and I'd like to see if there's something to it.
I'm not impressed with these spansules so far. Is it likely the effects will be more positve after a few weeks? I'm very skeptical. When something makes me feel more weird than I already do I tend to want to make a change. Call me strange.
Posted by Ippopo on October 5, 2002, at 1:43:12
In reply to dexedrine spansules are weird, posted by sudhira on October 5, 2002, at 0:43:15
Hi There, I'm new to ADD treatments though I've had it a long time. It's funny, I could never understand why I always had to be doing something.
I'm on adderall. All I can tell you is that I take 5mg around 9am and again around noon/1pm. It keeps me moving and focused. My conversations aren't as choppy. I'm not jumping from one subject to another. If I take it later than noon/1pm I won't go to sleep until around 2/3am.
At first it reminded me of the speed(street drugs)I took as a kid. The few times I tried cocaine I liked it. I was able to clean the house at lightening speed. Unfortunately I never knew where I put anything.
Thinking it was like the drugs I did when as a kid, I stopped for a few days. My conversations became choppy and I wasn't focused in anything I did.
I've been taking it for about 4wks.
Does this help at all?
Posted by sudhira on October 5, 2002, at 16:54:58
In reply to Re: dexedrine spansules are weird, posted by Ippopo on October 5, 2002, at 1:43:12
Hi, I was wondering if adderall was effective for you immediately or if you had to wait weeks. Also, why don't you use adderall xr which is supposed to last all day?
Also, is it pretty smooth for you when it wears off? Just curious. Thanks for writing.
> Hi There, I'm new to ADD treatments though I've had it a long time. It's funny, I could never understand why I always had to be doing something.
> I'm on adderall. All I can tell you is that I take 5mg around 9am and again around noon/1pm. It keeps me moving and focused. My conversations aren't as choppy. I'm not jumping from one subject to another. If I take it later than noon/1pm I won't go to sleep until around 2/3am.
> At first it reminded me of the speed(street drugs)I took as a kid. The few times I tried cocaine I liked it. I was able to clean the house at lightening speed. Unfortunately I never knew where I put anything.
> Thinking it was like the drugs I did when as a kid, I stopped for a few days. My conversations became choppy and I wasn't focused in anything I did.
> I've been taking it for about 4wks.
> Does this help at all?
Posted by Jo Ann on October 6, 2002, at 13:17:05
In reply to dexedrine spansules are weird, posted by sudhira on October 5, 2002, at 0:43:15
Hi, I am currently taking spansules twice daily, one at 8 and one at noon. I recently switched from the 5 mg tablets, which I had been taking for almost a year. When I made the recent switch, I experienced no side effects, except I felt a bit sluggish in the morning. When I started the tabs about a year ago, my side effects were minimal, I lost quite a bit of weight, I felt emotionall dull, and for the first few weeks I woke up really early in the morning. My doctor prescribed a low dose Effexor to counteract the side effects that I was experiencing, and since then the two medications have worked very well for me. I take 10-20mgs of dexedine per day, and 75mgs of Effexor which stabilizes the effects that the dexedrine has on my personality and appetite. My grades and mental focus have improved considerably. Maybe you should talk to you doctor about the tablets as opposed to the spansules, at least to start. Its still the same medication, but it may be an easier way to start. Good luck, keep us posted.
Posted by Hattree on October 7, 2002, at 9:18:04
In reply to Re: dexedrine spansules are weird, posted by Jo Ann on October 6, 2002, at 13:17:05
My experience has been different from what your doc says. I think that unlike ADs you get a pretty good idea how you will respond to a pstim within the first week. If it doesn't help your mood, it probably won't. For me there isn't a huge difference between one stimulant and another, but others have different experiences on that one.
Posted by sudhira on October 8, 2002, at 22:00:17
In reply to Re: dexedrine spansules are weird, posted by Jo Ann on October 6, 2002, at 13:17:05
Hi, thanks for writing. I was wondering if you noticed a difference between the tablets and the spansules--are the spansules just as effective for you as the tablets were? and how long do they last for you? I seem to experience rebound symptoms 4 hours after I take dex spansules. It definitely doesn't seem to last all day.
> Hi, I am currently taking spansules twice daily, one at 8 and one at noon. I recently switched from the 5 mg tablets, which I had been taking for almost a year. When I made the recent switch, I experienced no side effects, except I felt a bit sluggish in the morning. When I started the tabs about a year ago, my side effects were minimal, I lost quite a bit of weight, I felt emotionall dull, and for the first few weeks I woke up really early in the morning. My doctor prescribed a low dose Effexor to counteract the side effects that I was experiencing, and since then the two medications have worked very well for me. I take 10-20mgs of dexedine per day, and 75mgs of Effexor which stabilizes the effects that the dexedrine has on my personality and appetite. My grades and mental focus have improved considerably. Maybe you should talk to you doctor about the tablets as opposed to the spansules, at least to start. Its still the same medication, but it may be an easier way to start. Good luck, keep us posted.
Posted by Jo Ann on October 9, 2002, at 20:40:25
In reply to Re: dexedrine » Jo Ann, posted by sudhira on October 8, 2002, at 22:00:17
I have not noticed much difference, but I did switch right when I started school. The spansules seem to have a more subtle effect than the tablets, I would notice a more significant reaction when I took the tabs, like kind of euphoric feeling when I felt really motivated and had all sorts of ideas, but it only lasted a short period of time, and then I'd just feel tired. These spansules seem to give me more balance. I would like to go off them completely over Christmas to see how much difference they really are making, but I still have to discuss that with my doctor. How are you doing? What side effects have you experienced? Just be careful about eating, I went for a few months where I was nearly anorexic, not by choice but my appetite just didn't exist.
Posted by leor on October 9, 2002, at 22:06:58
In reply to Re: dexedrine spansules are weird, posted by Hattree on October 7, 2002, at 9:18:04
Does anyone know of a good website regarding natural treatments for A.D.D.
Thanks
Leor
Posted by IsoM on October 10, 2002, at 8:38:54
In reply to any websites about natural treatments for A.D.D.?, posted by leor on October 9, 2002, at 22:06:58
Here's one about natural supplements for ADHD. I, personally, think it's more of a placebo effect than anything else - the ingredients aren't enough to do much for any problem but hey - it's what you asked for. I'll let you decide; if it helps you, great! This is just one site.
I have ADHD & my diet & supplementation is VERY good but it doesn't make a lick of difference when someone has true ADD. It's a hardwire problem with the brain, not a chemical lack.
Posted by viridis on October 10, 2002, at 12:08:21
In reply to Re: any websites about natural treatments for A.D.D.? » leor, posted by IsoM on October 10, 2002, at 8:38:54
Hi Iso M,
I agree with your assessment that dietary supplements alone are unlikely to be effective for those with true ADD, but I do have a quibble with your statement that "It's a hardwire problem with the brain, not a chemical lack".
Most likely, it is a chemical lack (or excess, or imbalance), involving particular neurotransmitters and/or receptors. But it's the kind of chemical problem that usually requires specific meds, not just more of vitamin X, mineral Y etc. Of course, poor nutrition probably won't help, but spending a lot on questionable supplements is likely to be a waste of money (and time).
Just wanted to clarify, because I suspect that you and I (and many others) would agree that there's a real chemical problem involved.
Posted by sudhira on October 10, 2002, at 15:33:31
In reply to Re: dexedrine, posted by Jo Ann on October 9, 2002, at 20:40:25
I'm doing pretty well, thanks for asking. I haven't lost my appetite and I think it's because I take ad's as well as dexedrine. I'm on Lamictal and celexa. I guess i was hoping for a little extra mood support from the dexedrine. Some people find it adds to the positive effects of their ad.
So far it seems to help me a little with focus but there is a noticeable rebound after 4 or 5 hours. I get all cranky and low. There's been a bit of physical anxiety as well where my body feels kinda stressed and tense. This morning I took 20mgs instead of 10. Doin' ok.
Posted by IsoM on October 11, 2002, at 2:27:36
In reply to Re: any websites about natural treatments for A.D. » IsoM, posted by viridis on October 10, 2002, at 12:08:21
Actually, I should have mentioned that both hardwire & chemical problems are probably responsible for ADD. And there may be much more that's not understood either. I'm sure levels of diff neurotransmitters may be 'abnormal' with those with ADD as compared to 'normal' people. But there's also evidence that people with ADD have lower metabolic activity in certain parts of the brain while doing various mental tasks as compared with those without ADD. There seems to be slight variations in different brain structures too. Not enough is known to really comment on the significance of that yet.
Speaking as someone with ADD, nothing I do, nor any medication I take, has ever made it easier for me to do certain tasks. My understanding & comprehension of difficult & involved concepts is lightning fast & very good. But I cannot, for the life of me, handle or manipulate more than a few "items" in my mind at one time. Lists of ideas or items of any sort are easily shuffled & dropped mentally. I need to visually lay out lists in front of me to work through a problem.
One example is that of a new & complex mathematical problem worked out on a board for a class to follow. I would follow with ease & see where it would lead to, being able to draw conclusions about the results to the delight of my professor. But then when a similar problem would be written out to solve, I couldn't remember the steps in the right order to solve it - there needed to be a 'list' of steps. I needed to have the list of steps beside me till the steps were worn deep into my memory.
Even in small mundane matters, I'm troubled by lists. If I need to buy any more than three items (max) from a store, I need to write it down. Inevitably, I'll remember two or three & forget the others. I cannot keep track of a list of tasks of almost anything to be done without having to write it down. Even now, after having developed excellent coping skills to deal with ADD, I cannot overcome that problem. Evidence of a type of hardwire difference in my brain, I believe. It's something that many with ADD have.
Posted by Jo Ann on October 11, 2002, at 23:48:15
In reply to Re: hardwire vs chemical problems with ADD » viridis, posted by IsoM on October 11, 2002, at 2:27:36
I was just wondering if you had tried any meds, and if so, which ones. I was diagnosed with ADHD about a year ago, and my trouble seems to be identical to yours, and probably many others. The psychological testing that I underwent in order to be diagnosed showed that I was above average in some areas, below in others. There was no medium. I realized at the age of 22 that something was not right, I could understand mathematical concepts without any difficulty, but I could not apply them if my life depended on it. On the other hand, I had no problems writing essays, or doing something that involved creative thinking. I also write everything down, it has to be on a list to be accomplished. I make lists of lists, it is the only way I can stay organized. When I was working full time at a veterinary hospital, I could never understand why I thrived on chaotic days when I had no choice to multi-task, and I was always most efficient during those times. It was the days that the clinic was not busy that I would make mistakes, and have trouble getting things done. Have you experienced this at all? How long ago were you diagnosed? Also, I am trying to cut back my meds with diet, but I find it difficult to obtain useful information. Have you personally tried anything?
Posted by IsoM on October 12, 2002, at 2:45:40
In reply to Re: hardwire vs chemical problems with ADD -- IsoM, posted by Jo Ann on October 11, 2002, at 23:48:15
Jo Ann, I can offer my experiences but how much it will prove helpful to you, I’m not sure. While I have ADHD, I also have narcolepsy & both could contribute to my ‘marshmallow’ brain & mental blahness I often feel.
“I was just wondering if you had tried any meds, and if so, which ones.”I tried Ritalin but disliked the sharp demarcation in mood & mental clarity between doses. It also left me feeling more tired & mentally dull than I used to be when each evening. Dexedrine does a far better job of keeping me alert without such a let-down. I divide my dose up somewhat differently each day though, depending on what sort of tasks I need to do & whether I feel brighter some days than others. Instead of taking a full dose each morning & afternoon, I take part of it in the morning & the rest of the first dose about an hour later. I do the same with the afternoon dose. The rise isn’t as sharp & obvious but the let-down as the dose wears off is much gentler. I often won’t get the mid-day slump between doses this way either.
Some days when my mind is more engaged with mental stimulation, or I have no pressing need to be particularly bright, I’ll skip my afternoon dose. I don’t wish to develop any tolerance to the Dexedrine so it has a weaker effect in the future. I take Celexa too & have for a number of years. I believe it’s helped with impulse control.
Provigl is another med I take. I had originally tried it to help with narcolepsy but it didn’t keep me awake even at the highest dose so I discontinued it. But I’m back on it as the benefits for my ADD, while subtle, are noticable when I don’t take it. It helps with focus &, for me, is a great addition as an antidepressant.
-------------------------“I was diagnosed with ADHD about a year ago, and my trouble seems to be identical to yours, and probably many others. The psychological testing that I underwent in order to be diagnosed showed that I was above average in some areas, below in others. There was no medium.”
I’ve always said that I’d make a great pendulum – I swing from one end to the other, not in mood but skills. I have very strong good areas but strong weak areas too. I’m honestly not sure how much that’s part of ADD. Many people will say the same thing who don’t have ADD but I don’t know if it’s to the extreme degree I (& probably you) have it. I’ve tested at very high in genius IQ but my achievements (ha!) have never matched my so-called capabilities. I feel like a handful of loose gems that should be strung together into a beautiful necklace but with no string able to hold it together. Good qualities but little useful from it.
-----------------------“I realized at the age of 22 that something was not right, I could understand mathematical concepts without any difficulty, but I could not apply them if my life depended on it.”
Ah yes – women often can be VERY good with math, especially with equations & formulas but have much more trouble with using those concepts with word problems. I know I am. Perhaps ADD accentuates the difficulty even more?
------------------------“On the other hand, I had no problems writing essays, or doing something that involved creative thinking. I also write everything down, it has to be on a list to be accomplished. I make lists of lists, it is the only way I can stay organized.”
An ADDer’s place can look like post-it hell – so many bright coloured notes about that we don't even notice them. I use big, bright sheets of paper hung on fridge door handles or in the middle of the bathroom mirror so I’ll notice them. My favourite place to keep important lists & notes are in folders on the commputer (the hard-drive). I lose notes & lists constantly but I’ve yet to misplace the computer. I always know the info can be found in the right folder. I’m thinking of buying a special timer that can be set with 12 different alarms & sounds to help people with ADD keep track of time.
----------------------“When I was working full time at a veterinary hospital, I could never understand why I thrived on chaotic days when I had no choice to multi-task, and I was always most efficient during those times.”
I function similarly. Perhaps the adrenaline is really pumping keeping dopamine levels up & focus & mental clarity bright. But I always feel washed out & drained mentally the next day if it was intense. I pull right back for desperate need to recharge.
-------------------------“It was the days that the clinic was not busy that I would make mistakes, and have trouble getting things done. Have you experienced this at all?”
Part of my diagnosis was a computer test that measured alertness & accuracy when stimuli & the pace it was presented increased, & when it decreased. I did far better when the pace quickened. My mind sharpens & focus is much better when I feel a degree of pressure or stress. It’s a common problem with ADD with hyperactivity, I was told.
---------------------“How long ago were you diagnosed?”
I was diagnosed 3 1/2 years ago but I had trouble finding a doctor who thought I really needed meds. I got the line “if you’ve gotten by so far at your age, there’s no real need to medicate for it now” so often, I gave up. But I finally have doctor who respects me & believes my problems. Because I’m older & am very intelligent (I know it sounds boastful but I’m only adding it for better understanding), & have developed many good strategies over the years to overcome some of the problems, most didn’t feel I could really have ADHD – even with a diagnosis from a psychologist.
-------------------------“Also, I am trying to cut back my meds with diet, but I find it difficult to obtain useful information. Have you personally tried anything?”
I really think for anybody’s mind to work at its optimal level, a good diet is needed to supply the needed nutrients. While I’ll notice myself not feeling mentally as good when I’ve let my diet slip, I’ve never found anything that made me think that any amount of nutrients could solve ADD. I eat well, make sure I get enough protein (for amino acids), phytonutrients & do take supplemental vitamins & minerals. For me (the way my genetics affect me), I find that I do need extra magnesium & B complex vitamins. My favourite source for them is nutritional yeast flakes. A good diet enables me to feel my best & the supplementation makes sure I get enough that’s not generally there in high enough levels in most foods now.
Posted by viridis on October 12, 2002, at 12:29:47
In reply to Re: hardwire vs chemical problems with ADD -- IsoM » Jo Ann, posted by IsoM on October 12, 2002, at 2:45:40
Hi IsoM and Jo Ann,
It's striking how similar many of your symptoms sound to mine. I have lists and post-it notes everywhere, and can understand concepts very well -- it's just implementing them that can be a problem. Fortunately, I have no trouble with writing and am frequently asked to edit others' reports, manuscripts, etc. -- I can spot a spelling or grammatical error or inconsistency a mile away. In general, I'm often much better at organizing the work of others than mine. I also perform best under pressure, and when lots of things are happening at once. I'm a pretty successful research scientist, so I've managed to get quite far. But it was a huge struggle without medication; often I became frustrated and planned to give up and do something less intellectually challenging.
This is all mixed together with an anxiety disorder and recurring, major depression, so it took quite a bit of trial and error (about 12 years of tries with various ADs and other drugs plus therapy). Fortunately, I now have a mix that's working well. With respect to ADD, Adderall at low dose is very effective (I tried Wellbutrin and experienced awful side effects, and Provigil was OK but just didn't do the trick). The anxiety is almost completely under control with quite low-dose Klonopin and occasional Xanax (which also took care of anxiety-induced depression). Adderall has the added bonus of relieving residual depression (SSRIs, like Wellbutrin, were terrible for me). I take Neurontin as well for additional stability, although I'm not sure it really contributes much.
Re: the hard-wire vs. chemical issue: I don't doubt that there are differences in brain "circuitry" that explain some of the differences ADDers experience in information processing, and various other mental disorders as well. Separating chemical effects from physical structure within the brain is extremely complex, and the two are so intertwined that I'm not sure it's fully possible. My point was that medications can help greatly with the chemical part of the equation (and perhaps even compensate for some structurally-induced difficulties). I doubt that nutritional supplements alone will solve the problems, except in special cases of real vitamin deficiency etc.
That being said, I do take a range of (what I consider) reasonable supplements at moderate doses -- e.g., Sam-e, fish and various other omega 3 oils, ginkgo, a multivitamin and a little extra B, C, and E vitamins. I figure they won't hurt, are likely to contribute to my overall health, and seem to help make me feel better (even if much of this is just placebo effect). I'm also a strong believer in the value of regular exercise, although I don't always manage to get as much as I think I should.
One last point for Iso-M: I gather you live in Vancouver. That's probably my favorite city (it's a tossup with Victoria). I was born in Vancouver and lived in BC when I was young, and I try to get back to visit whenever possible. So, you're really lucky!
All the best,
Viridis
Posted by IsoM on October 13, 2002, at 2:49:22
In reply to Re: hardwire vs chemical problems with ADD -- IsoM, posted by viridis on October 12, 2002, at 12:29:47
The lower mainland around Vancouver IS very beautiful, alright, & I wouldn't want to live anywhere else (in Canada). Unfortunately, the wet fall & winter gets to me. I actually love rain & the misty landscape but the short hours of daylight & the inability to do much outside really gets to me & my mood starts dropping each fall. I know the weather's not so cold or wet that I can't go out - & I do, - but I hate the layers of clothes, having to cover my feet, rain dripping on my head, & not being able to lay or sit on the ground.
I've noticed with quite a few ADDers a real aversion to the sensation of restriction that clothing gives. Many seem to be overly sensitive to tactile sensations, among other senses. Every tag has to be cut from clothes & I'll often rip something off 'cause it makes my skin crawl. I feel imprisoned by clothes most of the time. Curious if you & Jo Ann feel like that too?
Have a couple more questions for both of you too. Hoping the idea of an ADD coach might help, I read as much on the concept as I could & found that most involve contact through emails or phone. That method wouldn't help me at all. I find I need face-to-face mental stimulation to really motivate me. If something is very enjoyable or something I love to do, motivation is no problem & I can hyperfocus & maintain interest to stick to it for ages. But in anything where interest tends to flag (even if I don't dislike it), I could really use someone else around to make it more interesting. I love bouncing ideas off someone else. I really thrive on the mental & emotional stimuli another brings to a task. Are either of you like that too? I don't drain someone but can inspire as much as be inspired. It just keeps my arousal & focus strong to have someone else about. I'm also far less likely to start nodding off to sleep with someone around (who's not dreary or boring).
Another problem I have is the seemingly inability to get started at doing something (inertia) but once started, the unawareness of time passing & when noticed, not wanting to stop until finished. Similar with either of you there too? That's where another person would come in very handy for jump-starting me & then applying the brakes. Just someone's presence helps without having to force me.
Viridis, how do you manage to specialise as you have to become a research scientist? Haven't you felt like you were missing out on other areas of interest to you? Even at my age, I still have trouble deciding exactly what I want to do. There's too many unrelated subjects that I find equally exciting & hate missing out on anything. Throughout my life, all these personailty profile tests, Holland tests & others that try to zero in on a person's strong points & interests, have consistently said I should be a scientist, but a bachelor's wouldn't make me more than a glorified lab flunky. When I searched for the jobs I could get with my degree, I was horrified to realise how boring they were! And I'm not young enough to try for years & years to do more. Besides, the only areas of science that I don't like as much (but loved when young) is physics. And it's not just the sciences I love, it's history, archaeology, English, both literature & subjects like etomology, & so many other subjects that I love to read & learn about. How did you ever curtail your interests in other fields to pick a speciality in one? I'm really serious about this question as so many ADDers have trouble sticking to just one thing.
Posted by leor on October 13, 2002, at 13:17:28
In reply to ADD characterisitcs: ??? for both Jo Ann + Veridis, posted by IsoM on October 13, 2002, at 2:49:22
A few words about A.D.D. coaches:Throughout the 2001-2002 academic year I had weekly consults with a wonderful woman who was formerly the head of special services for the University of Guelph, here in Ontario. Truly, these were some of the most empowering experiences I've had. Since early childhood I had been aware that I had A.D.D. and thus a unique, outside-the-box way of thinking. Still, try as I did, I could not grasp how to merge the form of my thnking with the functions of my life Carol
guided me as I discovered how to dillegently anylase my actions and thoughts so as to better master myself in the long term. For example: I had long dealt with my poor reading concentration by focussing in as intensely as possible on the material. A good general strategy, perhaps, but a disastrously wrong one for an ADDer. Carol and I created a profile of my reading
abilites and disabilites and then designed a multi-modal approach for me to apply: quickly scan the reading, demarcate the areas important to me, formulate questions to assess those areas, and then lastly attack it. This was but one of many common and not so common sense strategies that she revealed to me. I doubt that I could have found many of them had I flew solo.From my expereince, North American public educational system discriminate in favor of left-brained visual learners. If your brain is wired for any of the other six learning styles, you are out of luck. Without appropriate outside intervention, an ADDer will go through life using thinking techniques that are somewhat ill-fitting and so be slowed or (G-d forbid) even barred from achieving to their full potential.
I am comfortable communicating through orality alone and so could get by having my consultations with Carol over the phone (I live in Ottawa, Carol in Guelph. The two cities are seven hours away). For those who want someone local for face to face meeting, my suggestion is to plug into the network of A.D.D support organizations and resource institutions and than search out someone in your area.
A web search online and a look at the yellow pages can often turn up some introductory some leads. If a particular contact or organization whom you call does not have anyone to recommend I would suggest asking them if they know of anyone who might know of anyone. Eventually you'll score a hit.Unfortunately, many A.D.D. coaches do their advertising by word of mouth, so that tracking them down becomes a time-consuming quest. There is an upswing to this situation, though, which is that word-of-mouth is often a good gauge of a person's professional caliber (after all people won't recommend someone unless they think highly of them).
Best of luck in your journeys and please do not hesitate to write back should you have any further questions.
Blessings.
Leor
P.S. If you happen to know of any good list serves especially for people with A.D.D, I'd love to know hot to get in on them. Thanks.
Posted by IsoM on October 13, 2002, at 14:39:52
In reply to Some words about the beneifts of A.D.D. coaching » IsoM, posted by leor on October 13, 2002, at 13:17:28
It's not the strategies part I have difficulty with, Leor, but the motivation to stick to something till it's completed. Large projects aren't so bad as they're much more involved & interesting. It's the ordinary, everyday, mundane tasks that need looking after but are so boring to do alone that I find hard.
My profs were quite surprised at the strategies I'd developed over the years (I was in my late 40s when I went back to university). The way you were helped to read - that's how I read anything other than light reading. I didn't have help but it simply came together & seemed the obvious way to handle it. When I studied or was in class, I did it through ears, eyes, & hands. I'd listen as the prof spoke, had my text opened to the appropriate spot, highlighters on hand, & wrote in my notes in the book too. But I'd also be writing in my note book with references to what page in the text book it came from, diagrams, etc & then Harvard styled my notes later at home. Maybe it seemed a lot to do but for me, it was quick & easy & the only way for info to stay with me & let me find what I wanted later.
My organizational skills are actually VERY good but I'm even better at disorganizing things without even being aware I'm doing it. Some one can't just say "pay attention to what your hands are doing" as I've tried & tried. But when I'm busy doing things, my mind racing ahead, I'm totally unaware of what I do with what's in my hands. I will go through motions, not knowing I just did something, because it's something repetitive (putting things away, picking up one thing & dropping another, etc) that my "kinetic memory" does without conscious awareness.
Think of walking. Your kinteic memory has you putting one foot in front of the other, moving about obstacles, going up & down stairs, without having to consciously waste thinking ability on how to walk. I do that with so many things, that when I want to find something later, I can remember where I put it, or even if I had been using something that's very ordinary. Hence, my remarkable ability to disorganize. I can plan out & organize for anyone else with ease as it's not ME that'll be disorganizing for them too.
I'll really try to make myself aware of what's going on & counter it, but as soon as the pace increases or outside distractions increase, zip - all awareness is gone & I didn't even know it left. I've yet to figure out something that will consistently help there. All strategies are short-term & temporary.
And motivation is a BIG problem with mundane tasks. For example, strangely, I'd rather clean the whole kitchen in one fell swoop (even if it took all day) than stack & do dishes as they're dirtied. But with someone about, mundane tasks don't seem so dreary.
I seem to be smack in the centre of left & right brain thinking. Neither is stronger than the other so I didn't find the way schools approached learning to be a problem. Possibly because of my equally strong right brain thinking, it's enabled me to be logical, yet creative, in overcoming most differences in learning styles?
I guess what I'm saying is that it's not so much an ADD coach I need as an ADD pep squad (or just one person) following me about. Guess I wish I could have my own personal secretary to look after valuable, but boring, things.
Posted by IsoM on October 13, 2002, at 14:47:18
In reply to Some words about the beneifts of A.D.D. coaching » IsoM, posted by leor on October 13, 2002, at 13:17:28
I hope this doesn't sound snotty but any ADD groups I've gone to, I felt nothing in common with them. No conection. It was like no one could see simple coping strategies that helped but they would discount or not even entertain the ideas. They would go on about the same silly things over & over. Too often, it seemed more like a group whine. I don't feel much in common with the average housewife or mother or most others there.
I know not all are like that, but feel enough time was wasted already in looking, & don't wish to drive far & wide to find another similar one. I don't enjoy the group thing either - have no connection with most (if not all).
Posted by leor on October 14, 2002, at 13:51:51
In reply to Re: Some words about the beneifts of A.D.D. coaching » leor, posted by IsoM on October 13, 2002, at 14:39:52
I can certainly relate to your difficulties. I think the title of my favourite A.D.D. guide ‘driven to disrtraction' hits the nail on the head. The ADDer is driven, as if by some demon externally manipulating them. Would that I could have realized this sooner! Being an intellectual l type I reckoned that motivation was an attiudinal, rather than biochemical issue, and so set about to empowering myself to think around my difficulties. The only result from this approach was the deepening of my sense of shame over failing to achieve my potential.RESEARCH
At a certain point in my journey, even forced me to reach the conclusion that I good do much to advance my treatment by researching my A.D.D. As good as my psychitrist is he has over 100 other patients to attend to, with the result being that some leads in our search for appropriate treatment have to be left dangling.One of the first A.D.D. books that read was ‘Healing A.D.D' by Dr. Daniel G. Amen. In it he presents his own A.D.D. typology in which there are six varieties of the disorders. I found this book to be indispensable when it came to categorizing my symptoms and assessing what treatments are available for them (both natural and medicinal). Also, helpful was the online A.D.D. assessment and reference information found on a website called mindfixers.org.
Though the results of the assessment are surely not 100% accurate diagnoses of my condition, they have provided my doctor and I with hypotheses to work with. In testing them out, through studying my medical history for corroboration, and trying medication, we have learnt a great deal about the nature of my condition. All this benefits was derived despite the fact that I have been treated for A.D.D. on and off for 15 years! (The field of research is still in its infancy, with new discoveries being made each year).
Finally, I have benifited from working with a psychiatrist who specializes in treating adult A.D.D.
Currently I am taking the drugs dexedrine and effexor. The former has amplified my mental focus. The latter helps keep my mind from getting ‘overfocused' or ‘stuck' on certain thoughts. Since my mind can now easily do gear shifting, I can follow through with a task I set for myself without facing a barrage of interruptions, as was formerly the case.
Hope this has been of some assistance,
Blessings.
Leor
> It's not the strategies part I have difficulty with, Leor, but the motivation to stick to something till it's completed. Large projects aren't so bad as they're much more involved & interesting. It's the ordinary, everyday, mundane tasks that need looking after but are so boring to do alone that I find hard.
>
> My profs were quite surprised at the strategies I'd developed over the years (I was in my late 40s when I went back to university). The way you were helped to read - that's how I read anything other than light reading. I didn't have help but it simply came together & seemed the obvious way to handle it. When I studied or was in class, I did it through ears, eyes, & hands. I'd listen as the prof spoke, had my text opened to the appropriate spot, highlighters on hand, & wrote in my notes in the book too. But I'd also be writing in my note book with references to what page in the text book it came from, diagrams, etc & then Harvard styled my notes later at home. Maybe it seemed a lot to do but for me, it was quick & easy & the only way for info to stay with me & let me find what I wanted later.
>
> My organizational skills are actually VERY good but I'm even better at disorganizing things without even being aware I'm doing it. Some one can't just say "pay attention to what your hands are doing" as I've tried & tried. But when I'm busy doing things, my mind racing ahead, I'm totally unaware of what I do with what's in my hands. I will go through motions, not knowing I just did something, because it's something repetitive (putting things away, picking up one thing & dropping another, etc) that my "kinetic memory" does without conscious awareness.
>
> Think of walking. Your kinteic memory has you putting one foot in front of the other, moving about obstacles, going up & down stairs, without having to consciously waste thinking ability on how to walk. I do that with so many things, that when I want to find something later, I can remember where I put it, or even if I had been using something that's very ordinary. Hence, my remarkable ability to disorganize. I can plan out & organize for anyone else with ease as it's not ME that'll be disorganizing for them too.
>
> I'll really try to make myself aware of what's going on & counter it, but as soon as the pace increases or outside distractions increase, zip - all awareness is gone & I didn't even know it left. I've yet to figure out something that will consistently help there. All strategies are short-term & temporary.
>
> And motivation is a BIG problem with mundane tasks. For example, strangely, I'd rather clean the whole kitchen in one fell swoop (even if it took all day) than stack & do dishes as they're dirtied. But with someone about, mundane tasks don't seem so dreary.
>
> I seem to be smack in the centre of left & right brain thinking. Neither is stronger than the other so I didn't find the way schools approached learning to be a problem. Possibly because of my equally strong right brain thinking, it's enabled me to be logical, yet creative, in overcoming most differences in learning styles?
>
> I guess what I'm saying is that it's not so much an ADD coach I need as an ADD pep squad (or just one person) following me about. Guess I wish I could have my own personal secretary to look after valuable, but boring, things.
Posted by viridis on October 15, 2002, at 3:01:22
In reply to ADD characterisitcs: ??? for both Jo Ann + Veridis, posted by IsoM on October 13, 2002, at 2:49:22
Hi IsoM,
Funny you should mention the sensitivity to tactile stimuli. I've always been "itchy" -- not because of allergies, or skin conditions, etc.; I'm just hypersensitive to certain touch sensations. For example, I can't stand the feeling of wool against my skin -- I can even feel a wool sweater through a shirt, or a wool blanket through a sheet. I can't avoid the urge to scratch at any minor irritation.
I also know what you mean about hyperfocusing on things that interest you, yet drifting off when things aren't interesting. I can get incredibly into some projects, whereas other minor tasks take me forever to finish, because I keep getting distracted. It does often help to have someone to interact with to keep me on target; it just depends on how interesting and important the subject is. And often, a prod from someone (e.g., a report is overdue, etc.) will get me rolling on something, and wondering why it took me so long to get around to it if it turns out to be pretty simple.
There are a lot of contradictions -- my office can be a mess and I may forget to pay my bills, yet I'm meticulous about documenting lab work, labelling tubes with every possible piece of information in two places, etc. It all depends on what I consider interesting and important, and this can vary quite a bit from day to day or week to week. If a book doesn't grab my attention early on, I'll forget about it and drift off, but if I get into it I'll often read the whole thing in one sitting. I can't just watch TV -- I have to be reading, doing something on the computer, or whatever at the same time, just tuning in to the TV when something especially interesting comes on.
Re: careers: I tried some different paths before getting into research; I was an English major for a while, thought about starting my own business, had various hobbies, etc. But I've always been fascinated with biology, and many of my hobbies have involved nature, keeping animals, growing plants, etc. So, I followed my instincts and eventually got a PhD. I often thought about quitting -- between anxiety, depression, and attention problems, it was frequently very difficult without the right medications. But I did manage to get through, and finally I'm pretty balanced with the right combination of meds. The key was finding a treatment that doesn't make me more anxious, or dull me out, or make me lose interest in the things that fascinate me.
What I do is tedious at times, but it is quite diverse -- my days range fom lab work, to writing, to teaching, to supervising students, to PR, to endless meetings, committee responsibilities, etc. I also get to travel a reasonable amount (sometimes to pretty exotic places), and have a lot of flexibility with my schedule. Some days I'll work 18 or even 24 hours, but unless I have a meeting, appointment, etc., I can show up the next day when I want.
Although I'm "specialized" in a sense, biology is an incredibly diverse field, and I'm involved in all sorts of projects -- too many, really, to be able to keep up with all of them. Some get done, others don't pan out or fall by the wayside, but overall it's quite rewarding. I keep saying that I'll scale back, but then something new and interesting comes along...
Really, it seems that a fairly high proportion of my colleagues (including some of the most successful and/or interesting) have some degree of ADD. I'm not sure ADD is all bad -- maybe it's just another way of seeing the world, often finding more to interest you than the average person does. Fortunately, my ADD seems to be only moderately severe, and medication that helps me focus a bit better without taking away my interest in life has been a great help (Adderall, plus Klonopin for anxiety). I doubt I'll ever be the super-organized, always-on-time type, but I'm not sure if I'd want to be.
I do envy you living in Vancouver. I really enjoy wet weather, although I can sympathize about the clothes etc. -- I hate being in wet clothes. Sometimes I think I'll retire in the Okanagan (where I spent a lot of time when I was young), or in a drier part of the island. I do enjoy visiting BC when I get the chance, and still miss it, although it's been years since I lived there.
Anyway, time to stop writing -- it's 2:30 in the morning and I still have at least an hour's worth of work left that I brought home to meet a deadline tomorrow (I intended to get it done earlier, but got distracted...). It's been great talking with someone who shares so many similarities!
All the best,
Viridis
Posted by IsoM on October 15, 2002, at 17:33:03
In reply to Re: ADD characterisitcs: ??? for both Jo Ann + Ver » IsoM, posted by viridis on October 15, 2002, at 3:01:22
Need an assistant, a Muse, even a lackey? I read your post & sighed wistfully. It sounds almost ideal (except for the endless meetings). Mind you, it took you a long time to get to that point but you finally reached it. I got derailed years ago when I was young & first started university. Going back in my late forties, I found if I wanted to do anything even remotely to my liking, I was going to need a PhD - not likely for a number of reasons. But that hasn't curbed my love & enthusiasm for biology. For the couple of years I went back, biology was my out & out favourite. I found biology labs were a gas - I loved them. The younger students called me the experimental queen as I had done lots of similar experiments on my own previously. And my narcolpesy never kicked in during the labs as my interest was so high.
I really can't express how wonderful what you do sounds to me. And I know about the ADD tendencies among your collegues - our biology head was my prof for some courses; she & I used to have long interesting conversations in her office. She, too, has ADD traits with one sister having it full-blown. It's probably why I found her classes so to my liking. Besides her being around my age, her style was a wonderful adaptation to her own ADD traits & it fitted me perfectly. Some students were disconcerted by her seemingly sudden switches in topics but it was perfect for me & I had no trouble following her.
I do agree that ADD can be a blessing too. I honestly wouldn't want to be like most are but only look for ways to improve my weak points of ADD. It seems to me that most of the really creative types are people with high intelligence plus ADD. Like you, some areas are a total mess but I'm a perfectionist with other areas. It HAS to be done correctly (like proper labelling & careful notes). I'm probably deluding myself but I like to think I'm only a perfectionist in what really counts.
If you have the time & the inclination, I'd love to correspond with you about biology interests & the idiosyncrasies of ADD. It's unusual for me to find anyone with the zeal & enthusiasm I have for life sciences (outside of a university setting).
isomorphix at hotmail dot comEven as a child, I was digging up ant nests, studying them; picking aparts flowers & plants, attempting to graft plants on to one another; studying mosquito larvae in old stumps on our property. I was the weird little girl taking apart clocks or anything I could get my hands on in an attempt to understand things better, or just sitting in trees for hours watching the world. I watched a National Geographic special once about a biologist who studied the unique environment of the different stratums of the rain forest canopies. She'd sit in the upper levels, taking notes, observing interactions, taking sapmples, & other related tasks. It was such a *wonderful* three dimensional world she inhabited. I literally had tears rolling down my face as I watched it. It reached something deep in my heart that spoke to me of the blissful times I enjoyed as a child.
Strangely, I'm the only one in my family that ever took an interest in these things & I never got any encouragement with my interests. My siblings are totally unlike me & still regard me strangely. Sorry for such a long post rattling on like this.
Posted by viridis on October 18, 2002, at 0:47:42
In reply to Re: how I envy you... » viridis, posted by IsoM on October 15, 2002, at 17:33:03
Hi Iso,
I'll drop you a private note soon (when I get a free moment -- this week has been crazy!).
I look forward to talking,
Viridis
Posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 2:49:10
In reply to Note to IsoM » IsoM, posted by viridis on October 18, 2002, at 0:47:42
This is the end of the thread.
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