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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 16:53:40
In reply to Re: The causes of things, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 16:42:50
Now we get to the heart of the mattter:
"I am constantly ruminating about it.."
Yes, because i dont' know."I am clearly bipolar"
Why clearly? It is not so clear to me.
I may have been transiently bipolar due
to Valium withdrawal."Valium withdrawl isn't going to mimic bp"
You know that is false - it is well documented
that withdrawal from benzos mimics all types
of psychoses, including manic depression."Have you tried to get off lithium and klonopin
and seen what happens...."
Yes to K, but after 17 yrs of K dosing my brain
may have changed. I was able to get off Xanax,
how come that one doesn't count? As for lithium,
i did not really feel anything for 3 months.I am ruminating, because the point here is not
just personal - it means that there is no way
to distinguish one cause from another in mental
illness dx.Squigggles
Posted by IsoM on September 6, 2002, at 17:06:25
In reply to The causes of things, posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 7:01:18
Squiggles, have you ever had a chance to talk in depth with someone else who had withdrawal problems with any benzodiazepines? Compare symptoms & such?
I don't have hard evidence but from anecdotal discussions with others & thinking of how I react too, I believe that long term use of psychotropic meds can alter the brain's chemistry (at least in some people) permanently. If not permanently, at least for many, many months or years.
Seeing that medications do cause some sort of change in the brain (or they wouldn't have any effects, good or bad), I'm wondering if long term use doesn't cause our brains to come to rely on them. If someone who has normal thyroxine levels takes thyroid hormones, their thyroid will become inactive over time, atrophying. Same with insulin & the pancreas. All sorts of compounds, if taken over a period of time, are known to alter our chemistry & function of different organs. Why not psychotropic meds too?
I don't believe you're ruminating over this as suggested. It's only normal for a person to be curious as to cause & effect. It's due to curiousity that medical discoveries are made. To simply accept that something happened without wondering why seems a very boring attitude to take.
Due to biochemical differences in people, I think some may be more sensitive to changes while others could possibly weather chemical assaults with no lasting harm. More & more, we're discovering why the differences & hopefully with drugs will be designed to be more selective for specific problems with the least possible side effects on other body systems.
Posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 19:16:50
In reply to Causes and Medications » Squiggles, posted by IsoM on September 6, 2002, at 17:06:25
Thanks IsoM,
I agree with you entirely. Yes, it is possible
that drugs (psychoactive or not) may, after a long
time of exposure, change a brain state, or even
any other organ for that matter. And yes, I am
willing to accept that I will never be able to
get off Klonopin, or lithium or Synthroid - that
may be so; I am willing to accept that stability
is the best I can get.But, as you seem to understand my point, the question
is (and it is an academic question now, as I do
not believe any dr. would touch my equilibrium and
try to change it after so many years), the question
is ---- can Valium and other benzo w/d, and even
Grave's disease if you like, present to the doctor
as a mental illness -- that is what I am trying to
stress, and apply it to my case as well.If Dr. Goldberg or any other hotshots out there
want to experiment with my dendrites, however ...
i'm willing to donate my sanity for the sake
of science.you know how to reach me :-)
Squiggles
Posted by judy1 on September 6, 2002, at 19:30:47
In reply to The causes of things, posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 7:01:18
I couldn't agree more with IsoM's assessment- the withdrawal of psychotropic drugs mimics just about every illness in the DSM. I also hope you weren't hurt about Zyprexa's responses, I posted on Admin- I felt they were totally inappropriate. May I ask why you hesitate to taper off of lithium? If done very slowly you should have few if no side-effects (been there, done that). I have a very supportive pdoc who is allowing me to taper off my meds (probably will keep klonopin- I do have a serious panic disorder), but I am also going heavy on therapy. Most drugs that treat bipolar are actually treating manic symptoms- so any 'normal' person would feel slowed down, basically have the same responses that a person with bipolar disorder has. hope this helped- judy
Posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 20:13:12
In reply to Re: The causes of things » Squiggles, posted by judy1 on September 6, 2002, at 19:30:47
Judy1,
I take it you are talking to me; about lithium?
I am not sure that my doctor would permit me
to withdraw from my present drug soup; i asked
if i could reduce my lithium dose because sometimes
i feel symptoms of toxicity, and i am told i am
in the safe range; i sort of get the hint that
i am believed to be bipolar and should not mess
with that. With clonazepam, i had no resisistance
really, but also no supervision or assistance -
so i really crashed with a seizure and a stroke
after 18 months or so of horrible withdrawals - i
still am stabilizing. Yeah, yeah, i know some
people think i am exaggerating, but if you felt
that fire in the brain and the lightning strike
cripple you for a month, you would think it was
serious too...Basically, i would have to have support, and i
don't think i have it - i think it scares doctors.
I don't blame them.Squiggles
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 20:14:09
In reply to Re: The causes of things, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 16:26:04
> I think your problem is inability to think clearly.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or their experiences or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
Dinah
Posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:45:00
In reply to The causes of things, posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 7:01:18
> I may never know. It's been about 20 yrs
> since i've been dx'd BP. It was sudden and
> during grduate studies stress. The thing is,
> I had been taking Valium erratically for
> jitters at exams and such; I was not watching
> the dose so much or the time, or if I tried
> to stop suddenly - it was a popular drug then
> and I think my dr. just gave it to me as needed;
>
> It has been suggested to me that what presented
> as bipolar symptoms was infact withdrawal from
> Valium. I just don't know how to tell if this
> is true or false, but it certainly suggests
> that I may have just been taking all these
> meds for so long, and have gone through so many
> iatrogenic misadventures, for nothing. That,
> infact - the severe depression, anxiety, insomnia,
> rapid switch of one idea to another, anxiety
> attacks, all over a period of about a year,
> and ultimate breakdown - were all the result
> of withdrawal. It's conceivable.
>
>
> I am trying to find a criterion to know. Part of
> the problem is I cannot stop the drugs now because
> I have been taking them too long (e.g. Klonopin
> w/d almost killed me and I had to reinstate);
> and there is no way my dr. wants me off lithium
> (esp. with the Synthroid balance at stake).
>
> So, I was trying to think of a way to know;
> for example, whether a normal person taking
> lithium would feel the same way a bipolar one
> would - or at least during a Valium withdrawal
> (hypothetical), and then just get used to the
> drug;
>
> If you have any medical detective experience
> or suggestions, please let me know. It's something
> of a puzzle to me. I suppose at the end of the day
> it may not matter - what the cause was, if I am stable now,
>
> Thanks
>
> Squiggles
>squiggles, what i really think Zyprexa Numb Tongue was telling you is that he thinks you have creme doughnut filling for a brain. Maybe an AP would help.
Posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:47:06
In reply to Re: Please be civil » ZyprexaNumbTongue, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 20:14:09
> > I think your problem is inability to think clearly.
>
> Please don't jump to conclusions about others or their experiences or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
>
> DinahOne thing Ive always noticed about psychobabble is its a place oriented more for female posters. Dr. Bob has made it this way too. See above how the females always stick together.
Psychobabble is discriminatory to male depressives and male posters.
BC
Posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:52:16
In reply to The causes of things, posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 7:01:18
> I may never know. It's been about 20 yrs
> since i've been dx'd BP. It was sudden and
> during grduate studies stress. The thing is,
> I had been taking Valium erratically for
> jitters at exams and such; I was not watching
> the dose so much or the time, or if I tried
> to stop suddenly - it was a popular drug then
> and I think my dr. just gave it to me as needed;
>
> It has been suggested to me that what presented
> as bipolar symptoms was infact withdrawal from
> Valium. I just don't know how to tell if this
> is true or false, but it certainly suggests
> that I may have just been taking all these
> meds for so long, and have gone through so many
> iatrogenic misadventures, for nothing. That,
> infact - the severe depression, anxiety, insomnia,
> rapid switch of one idea to another, anxiety
> attacks, all over a period of about a year,
> and ultimate breakdown - were all the result
> of withdrawal. It's conceivable.
>
>
> I am trying to find a criterion to know. Part of
> the problem is I cannot stop the drugs now because
> I have been taking them too long (e.g. Klonopin
> w/d almost killed me and I had to reinstate);
> and there is no way my dr. wants me off lithium
> (esp. with the Synthroid balance at stake).
>
> So, I was trying to think of a way to know;
> for example, whether a normal person taking
> lithium would feel the same way a bipolar one
> would - or at least during a Valium withdrawal
> (hypothetical), and then just get used to the
> drug;
>
> If you have any medical detective experience
> or suggestions, please let me know. It's something
> of a puzzle to me. I suppose at the end of the day
> it may not matter - what the cause was, if I am stable now,
>
> Thanks
>
> Squiggles
>
You have been pondering this same crap for years, even when you were a regular on ASDM youd post this idea. Im sick of hearing about it. If you dont think you are bipolar, then by all means GO OFF YOUR LITHIUM for a few months and see what happens!!!! Its the only way to find out. maybe you wont crash, maybe you will become manic and need to be hospitalized. But one way or the other you will find out and your curiosities/ruminations will be settled once and for all.That would be much better off than constantly asking others on a message board what you should do. Nobody here knows what you should do, we arent doctors. Stop asking for such specific advice online. Get a clue.
Either go off your lithium and give it a trial. Or shut up. Zyprexa Numb Tongue was right, youd probably benefit from an atypical anti-psychotic. Your thinking is "fuzzy" to put it best. An AP can help that
BC
Posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 20:53:33
In reply to Re: doughnut filling for a brainsquiggles, posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:45:00
Well, i don't want to brag or anything
but you ought to know that my brain
is not so full of cream filling, or
milles feuilles as we would say here
in Quebec, that i don't recognize some
of that American Apple Pie coming my
way from EricLostBoyinNC. Guess he
has found his way into my meninges. Just
stay away from the dura mater, Eric.Squiggles
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 21:00:00
In reply to Re: The causes of things, posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:52:16
Ok, we can do this for the rest of the weekend if you like. It's not hard to reregister. I hope you choose not to do that. It's a waste of time for both of us. You admitted on Admin that you were Lost Boy by referring to an email made to him as being made to you.
So now I'm blocking you for an extra period of time. Please don't reregister. If you have any complaints you can take them up with Dr. Bob when he gets back.
Dinah
Posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 21:20:43
In reply to Re: The causes of things, posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:52:16
No need to requote my whole message every
time you write to me - it does get repetitious
and takes up bandwidth;Eric :-) - my favourite antagonist
Squiggles
Posted by Ta'Bitha on September 7, 2002, at 6:29:57
In reply to Re: The causes of things » Behavioral Control, posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 21:20:43
Squiggles, remember how when you were 9 years old and the boy who liked you best was the one who teased you the most? Somehow that comes to mind here.
Just a thought,
Tabitha
Posted by Squiggles on September 7, 2002, at 7:43:17
In reply to Re: The causes of things » Squiggles, posted by Ta'Bitha on September 7, 2002, at 6:29:57
Awe shucks,
and i hoped he was a famous neurosurgeon
who would take me to his laboratory for
brain experimentation, which would win
him the Nobel Prize :-)Squiggles
Posted by Tabitha on September 7, 2002, at 16:28:40
In reply to Re: The causes of things » Ta'Bitha, posted by Squiggles on September 7, 2002, at 7:43:17
clearly he's interested in your brain. after all he compared it to a sweet yummy substance :)
Posted by judy1 on September 7, 2002, at 18:31:48
In reply to Re: The causes of things » judy1, posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 20:13:12
A couple of things- yes i was writing about lithium, and yes i understand how difficult it is to find a pdoc to help you taper down once you get the bipolar label. It took me 2 years to find a shrink that would, but i did- and it was the best possible thing that happened to me. (One thought- maybe telling your present shrink that you want to get off lithium and try something different like depakote,etc.- but not actually doing it. I realize how deceptive that is, but sometimes they-pdocs- back you into corners with meds). as far as seizures, of course i believe you, i've had 3 grand mals myself. Are you still having them? If so, i would hope you are under the care of a neurologist. take care, judy
Posted by Squiggles on September 7, 2002, at 19:17:04
In reply to Re: The causes of things » Squiggles, posted by judy1 on September 7, 2002, at 18:31:48
Thanks Judy1 for your concerned suggestions;
No i do not have seizures anymore; i had one
i think or stroke or both, during the clonazepam
withdrawal. I reinstated and no longer have
that but i do have hyperpyrexic symptoms;
it would be nice
to know what would have happened had i not
reinstated, but the situation was urgent and
it looked bad.I appreciate your craftiness, regarding getting
off lithium, but there is a factor that would
require the cooperation of my pdoc; besides
moral reasons, there is the role of Synthroid
to consider - Synthroid without lithium would
very likely give me a heart attack as it acts
like speed, and is given to counteract the effects
of lithium.So, i would only do it under the supervision of
my dr. or another one who he approves of.Squiggles
Posted by judy1 on September 8, 2002, at 21:07:41
In reply to Re: The causes of things » judy1, posted by Squiggles on September 7, 2002, at 19:17:04
I had no idea that Synthroid acted like that, is that a common side-effect? Best of luck in finding a supportive pdoc- judy
Posted by Squiggles on September 9, 2002, at 7:00:28
In reply to I understand... » Squiggles, posted by judy1 on September 8, 2002, at 21:07:41
Synthroid is given to long-term lithium
takers when their thyroid becomes underactive.
Mine is now operating at 15% of original
capacity. So, Synthroid is given to supplement
that loss which is lithium induced.One of the effect of lithium is hypothyroidism.
So, if you keep the Synthroid dose steady,
and you remove the lithium, one would expect
the thyroxine level to sore - resulting in
hyperthyroidism, or even thyroid storm. That's
pretty serious.In order for me to do any kind of experimental
tinkering, having this delicate balance between
lithium and thyroxine (Synthroid is the artificial
variation) i would DEFINITELY have to be under
the care of a doctor to do it.I don't believe my doctor wishes to upset
that balance.That;s what i meant.
Squiggles
Posted by cybercafe on September 9, 2002, at 14:34:28
In reply to The causes of things, posted by Squiggles on September 6, 2002, at 7:01:18
> I may never know. It's been about 20 yrs
> since i've been dx'd BP. It was sudden and
> during grduate studies stress. The thing is,
> I had been taking Valium erratically for
> jitters at exams and such; I was not watching
> the dose so much or the time, or if I tried> I am trying to find a criterion to know. Part of
i always ask my doc -- "so hey... what makes you think i'm bipolar"
he's the expert out there -- and you have access to his opinion ... why let such a valuable resource pass you by ?
Posted by Squiggles on September 9, 2002, at 14:47:47
In reply to Re: The causes of things, posted by cybercafe on September 9, 2002, at 14:34:28
Gosh!
You're brilliant - why didn't i think of that;
well, the thing is (i will ask - your idea
is good), thing is, after trying to get off
Rivotril (just one of the drug soup ingredients)
and almost killing myself with that stroke thing,
i cannot imagine what it would be like if
my dr. said "yeah, maybe it was Valium w/d",
and try to get off Lithium and Synthroid.I think it can't be done. I think my brain
is changed now permamently - at least i am
very much afraid of doing it without assistance;
after all, i may have succeeded with Rivotril
had i been given Valium to do it with; but
i get the impression, that my doctor does not
want to meddle into such a mess - i don;t blame
him.Squiggles
Posted by cybercafe on September 10, 2002, at 3:53:14
In reply to Re: The causes of things » cybercafe, posted by Squiggles on September 9, 2002, at 14:47:47
> You're brilliant - why didn't i think of that;
> well, the thing is (i will ask - your idea
> is good), thing is, after trying to get off
> Rivotril (just one of the drug soup ingredients)
> and almost killing myself with that stroke thing,
> i cannot imagine what it would be like if
> my dr. said "yeah, maybe it was Valium w/d",
> and try to get off Lithium and Synthroid.if i have no clue what to do i usually try to get more information ...... information as to why you were diagnosed, information as to what happens to people when they try to go off whatever med
i wonder if it would be possible to try going off one med really really slowly.... like decrease your dose by 5% every 4 months.... stay at one level for an extended period of time and see how you react ... keep good journal records of sensitive situations and how you react to them reactive thoughts/thinking/behaviour/physical feelings
how worried you are would determine how much documentation and how slow you go ......
obviously this should only be done after talking to your doc right?? if i found something that worked for me i wouldn't want to risk blowing it .....
> I think it can't be done. I think my brain
> is changed now permamently - at least i am
> very much afraid of doing it without assistance;
> after all, i may have succeeded with Rivotril
> had i been given Valium to do it with; but
> i get the impression, that my doctor does not
> want to meddle into such a mess - i don;t blame
> him.yep i wouldn't do it without assistance... even if i thought a doc was dead wrong i would be very hesitant to go against him/her because i think it's really important to have a good relationship with a doc --- especially when it's almost impossible to get a new one (how long is the waiting period out east? ... here you're looking at 3 months i think)
Posted by Squiggles on September 10, 2002, at 7:24:00
In reply to Re: The causes of things, posted by cybercafe on September 10, 2002, at 3:53:14
I don't want to jeopardize my good relationship
with my doctor. I think i have been lucky to
have the constant, and cooperative relationship;
and YES here in Quebec you are lucky to have
a doctor at all now as someone who knows your
case for so long.But that is not the point - the point is whether
i need to be on these drugs at all. I think
as you say, i can only ask and suggest, and
really ultimately rely on advice, which i may
(in my neurotic arrogant way) question.Well, everybody wants certainty, right?
Squiggles
Posted by judy1 on September 10, 2002, at 12:31:08
In reply to Re: The causes of things » cybercafe, posted by Squiggles on September 10, 2002, at 7:24:00
But that is not the point - the point is whether
i need to be on these drugs at allYou are absolutely correct- and that is why, despite my list of very impressive labels (including bipolar), I left my shrink who wouldn't help me taper and went through the dozen others until I found this one. I think there is a growing movement of shrinks (especially in California) who question the validity of the DSM (which is put out by the pharm industry) and question how psychotropic meds work (which nobody really knows). Unless you are a danger to yourself or others you have the right to question, to insist that the doctor- who works for you- assist you in achieving the goals you want, which in your case is to be tapered off. Ok :-), off the soapbox, I do this on a fairly regular basis because it's a hot button for me. take care, judy
Posted by Squiggles on September 10, 2002, at 15:06:51
In reply to Re: The causes of things » Squiggles, posted by judy1 on September 10, 2002, at 12:31:08
Thanks again Judy. I hope to be able
to contribute in return.Maybe it's just California dreaming -
who knows I may advertise myself as
a guinea pig to the lowest bidder.Squiggles
This is the end of the thread.
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