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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 24, 2002, at 23:49:39
I am thinking of trying either Nardil or Parnate for my major depression w/ social phobia & possible adhd or bipolar. I am confused as to exactly what the side effects of these two MAOIs are. I know you have to stick to a low tyramine diet.
If you stick to the diet, what are the major side effects of Nardil & Parnate? Are the side effects really that much worse than SSRIs (which cause me insomnia & anorgasmia)?
Are Nardil or Parnate dumb drugs (in other words, can you study & remember college level material for exams when on these medications)? I noticed Parnate is supposed to be somewhat similar to amphetamine. Does it help with adhd or 'attentional/focusing' difficulties? Does Nardil also help with these adhd type symptoms?
Can these two drugs be taken safely with a benzodiazepine such as Klonopin or Ambien for insomnia?
Posted by Ray on January 25, 2002, at 14:05:20
In reply to Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 24, 2002, at 23:49:39
Hi 3 Beer,
> I am thinking of trying either Nardil or Parnate for my major depression w/ social phobia & possible adhd or bipolar. I am confused as to exactly what the side effects of these two MAOIs are. I know you have to stick to a low tyramine diet.
One recent study suggests common etiology between between Social Phobia and Bipolar. AHDH is also common with SP. Parnate often prosexual at low dose. At high dose increased libido, may be some delayed orgasm but usually less than even low dose of some SSRI's. Nardil at high doses often causes some sexual side effects. However we are talking MAX DOSE Nardil, which say with Paxil likely could cause completel anogasmia. Even minimum dose Zoloft and Celexa gave me as much sexual side effects (or more with Celexa) than MAX DOSE Nardil. Unlike SSRI's sexual side effects, with Nardil these diminish in time, so is critical to allow up to 4 months for ALL side effects to disappear or lessen substantially. Insomnia more likely with Parnate, not usually problem with Nardil, just will sleep less hours maybe but enough. Elderpyl low dose prosexual. High dose maybe prosexual. I will switch to it likely in the near future after several years of Nardil, first 2 of 90mg Nardil and later about 3 at 60 with Klonopin (very good tolerability).
Oh - other side effects? Unlikely. Nardil allow up to 4 months that's all.
> If you stick to the diet, what are the major side effects of Nardil & Parnate? Are the side effects really that much worse than SSRIs (which cause me insomnia & anorgasmia)?
As above, Parnate insomnia most common, Nardil (like most other antidepressants) sexual side effects most common.
>
> Are Nardil or Parnate dumb drugs (in other words, can you study & remember college level material for exams when on these medications)? I noticed Parnate is supposed to be somewhat similar to amphetamine. Does it help with adhd or 'attentional/focusing' difficulties? Does Nardil also help with these adhd type symptoms?
No they are definitely NOT. If anything the opposite in my opinion. Initially when raising dose you may feel that way though. A eurphoria effect is frequently noted until stable on a dose.
>
> Can these two drugs be taken safely with a benzodiazepine such as Klonopin or Ambien for insomnia?
Absolutely. I've combined Nardil and Klonopin for several years with excellent results for an otherwise very severe Social Phobia mostly erradicated.
As with K + most other antidepressants, high doses of both usually sedating, but high on one or on the other not necessarily, specially MAOI's, effexor, Wellbutrin, Remeron, Prozac. (ie; NE active meds).
Posted by BK on January 25, 2002, at 17:47:03
In reply to Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 24, 2002, at 23:49:39
> I am thinking of trying either Nardil or Parnate for my major depression w/ social phobia & possible adhd or bipolar. I am confused as to exactly what the side effects of these two MAOIs are. I know you have to stick to a low tyramine diet.
>
> If you stick to the diet, what are the major side effects of Nardil & Parnate? Are the side effects really that much worse than SSRIs (which cause me insomnia & anorgasmia)?
>
> Are Nardil or Parnate dumb drugs (in other words, can you study & remember college level material for exams when on these medications)? I noticed Parnate is supposed to be somewhat similar to amphetamine. Does it help with adhd or 'attentional/focusing' difficulties? Does Nardil also help with these adhd type symptoms?
>
> Can these two drugs be taken safely with a benzodiazepine such as Klonopin or Ambien for insomnia?3 beer
I was on Nardil for several months about fifteen years ago. Initially, I found it to work miraculously. I experienced literally no depression and became extremely social and very comfortable with myself and around others. I also found it to have tremendous cognitive effects. Specifically, my verbal and writing skills increased noticeably.
Side effects including constipation, insomnia, anorgasmia were very pronounced. After about three months it completely pooped-out. I tried it again some years later, but never enjoyed the same benefits that I once had experienced. I never found any other AD to be as efficacious. Good luck and I think its worth a try.
If anyone knows of any substitutes, I'd be most appreciative.
Posted by djmmm on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:29
In reply to Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 24, 2002, at 23:49:39
> I am thinking of trying either Nardil or Parnate for my major depression w/ social phobia & possible adhd or bipolar. I am confused as to exactly what the side effects of these two MAOIs are. I know you have to stick to a low tyramine diet.
>
> If you stick to the diet, what are the major side effects of Nardil & Parnate? Are the side effects really that much worse than SSRIs (which cause me insomnia & anorgasmia)?
>
> Are Nardil or Parnate dumb drugs (in other words, can you study & remember college level material for exams when on these medications)? I noticed Parnate is supposed to be somewhat similar to amphetamine. Does it help with adhd or 'attentional/focusing' difficulties? Does Nardil also help with these adhd type symptoms?
>
> Can these two drugs be taken safely with a benzodiazepine such as Klonopin or Ambien for insomnia?I've been on Nardil for 1.5 years for major depression/social phobia...I went through all the ssris,wellbutrin, effexor, xanax, klonopin and various combos of each. Nardil, not only has allowed me to reach almost 100%, but I have experienced virtually no side-effects (far less than the SSRIS) ...also, I have never changed my diet. I drink beer when I want, eat chocolate when I want, pizza, etc.
I realize that I am in the minority, but I feel that I have to let everyone (that I can) know that MAOIs don't deserve the bad reputation they have been given...I think that a lot of people can benefit from this class of meds, but are afraid to try them because of what they read (mostly perpetuated by people who have never taken a MAOI!)
Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 29, 2002, at 2:54:31
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences?, posted by djmmm on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:29
>
> I've been on Nardil for 1.5 years for major depression/social phobia...I went through all the ssris,wellbutrin, effexor, xanax, klonopin and various combos of each. Nardil, not only has allowed me to reach almost 100%, but I have experienced virtually no side-effects (far less than the SSRIS) ...also, I have never changed my diet. I drink beer when I want, eat chocolate when I want, pizza, etc.
>
> I realize that I am in the minority, but I feel that I have to let everyone (that I can) know that MAOIs don't deserve the bad reputation they have been given...I think that a lot of people can benefit from this class of meds, but are afraid to try them because of what they read (mostly perpetuated by people who have never taken a MAOI!)I totally agree.
I've used Nardil for several years to great benefit.
I get less side effects with it by a longshot across comparable dose ranges compared to Paxil, Celexa, and Zoloft.
To me, only Prozac has been as tolerable as Nardil.
And I too think Nardil is WAY misunderstand.
You correctly point out most of the negative data
heard comes from those with only heresay basis for their comments.
(ie; heard from someone who heard that ...)
Many Dr.s same way, never even prescribed it!
Posted by cirrus6000 on June 10, 2002, at 0:06:16
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences? » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Ray on January 25, 2002, at 14:05:20
I am having the same difficulties as 3Beer effect has been having except I have tried Nardil(Phenelzine) for a month and it left me unable to ejaculate. please help me and tell me how to either stay on Nardil and not experience anorgasmia or whether I should switch to Parnate? Please correspond with me and help me?!?
Posted by LJH on June 12, 2002, at 11:43:36
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences? » djmmm, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 29, 2002, at 2:54:31
10 years ago I started the maze of anti depressant drug therapy. It took over a year to finally wind up with the first generation anti depressant - Nardil. It worked fine for the depression for about 3 years. I did have to watch the diet carefully. I noticed significant blood pressure problems, blurred vision, dizziness, passing out, etc., if I wandered off the diet in any manner. After 3 years, I found myself falling into severe depression again associated with suicidal tendencies. My Dr. explained that the human body changes, and, at my age at the time, hormonal changes were occuring too which would cause Nardil to lose its effectiveness. He also explained the same is true for ANY drug taken for any longterm duration for treatment of any disease. After being weaned off the Nardil, I again found myself in the maze of anti-dressant search and destroy. I moved to a new area and changed Dr. The new Dr tried several medicines used to treat epileptics. These also did not work. We then went to Parnate. It worked for about 2 1/2 years and now it has pooped out. I am currently weaning from it (unmedicated) and will be trying effexor. I try to keep somewhat but not overwhelmingly informed of available treatments. I guess the only good thing about all of this is there is always hope that a drug will help, if but for a while. Then, by the time you have to find another, someone has introduced another new medication which we get to be guinea pigs for. I don't expect to ever be on the same medication for life but as long as there is something new to try, I am not giving up my committment to become healthy and to try to stay healthy.
Posted by cirrus6000 on June 12, 2002, at 22:25:30
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences?, posted by LJH on June 12, 2002, at 11:43:36
have you tried serzone? did you experience any ejaculatory difficulties while on Nardil or Parnate b/c i was on Nardil for a month and boy it sucked i could get it up but couldn't finish the job so i quit that so now i'm thinking i'll give parnate a try
Posted by gypsea on August 20, 2002, at 18:36:34
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences? » djmmm, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 29, 2002, at 2:54:31
> >
> > I've been on Nardil for 1.5 years for major depression/social phobia...I went through all the ssris,wellbutrin, effexor, xanax, klonopin and various combos of each. Nardil, not only has allowed me to reach almost 100%, but I have experienced virtually no side-effects (far less than the SSRIS) ...also, I have never changed my diet. I drink beer when I want, eat chocolate when I want, pizza, etc.
> >
> > I realize that I am in the minority, but I feel that I have to let everyone (that I can) know that MAOIs don't deserve the bad reputation they have been given...I think that a lot of people can benefit from this class of meds, but are afraid to try them because of what they read (mostly perpetuated by people who have never taken a MAOI!)
>
> I totally agree.
>
> I've used Nardil for several years to great benefit.
> I get less side effects with it by a longshot across comparable dose ranges compared to Paxil, Celexa, and Zoloft.
> To me, only Prozac has been as tolerable as Nardil.
> And I too think Nardil is WAY misunderstand.
> You correctly point out most of the negative data
> heard comes from those with only heresay basis for their comments.
> (ie; heard from someone who heard that ...)
> Many Dr.s same way, never even prescribed it!
>For the past 11 years Nardil has proven most effective against my generalized anxiety, and the diet hasn't been a problem. I do, however, suffer from insomnia and anorgasmia. For me these side effects come and go. But, what a bitch it is to take so long to ejaculate! I'm lucky that girls put up with me. Sure, it's great for the first hour, but nobody's looking for marathon sex every night. And, if I don't finish the job, it can be downright painful! Can anyone suggest a remedy?
Posted by gypsea on August 20, 2002, at 18:36:54
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences? » djmmm, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 29, 2002, at 2:54:31
> >
> > I've been on Nardil for 1.5 years for major depression/social phobia...I went through all the ssris,wellbutrin, effexor, xanax, klonopin and various combos of each. Nardil, not only has allowed me to reach almost 100%, but I have experienced virtually no side-effects (far less than the SSRIS) ...also, I have never changed my diet. I drink beer when I want, eat chocolate when I want, pizza, etc.
> >
> > I realize that I am in the minority, but I feel that I have to let everyone (that I can) know that MAOIs don't deserve the bad reputation they have been given...I think that a lot of people can benefit from this class of meds, but are afraid to try them because of what they read (mostly perpetuated by people who have never taken a MAOI!)
>
> I totally agree.
>
> I've used Nardil for several years to great benefit.
> I get less side effects with it by a longshot across comparable dose ranges compared to Paxil, Celexa, and Zoloft.
> To me, only Prozac has been as tolerable as Nardil.
> And I too think Nardil is WAY misunderstand.
> You correctly point out most of the negative data
> heard comes from those with only heresay basis for their comments.
> (ie; heard from someone who heard that ...)
> Many Dr.s same way, never even prescribed it!
>For the past 11 years Nardil has proven most effective against my generalized anxiety, and the diet hasn't been a problem. I do, however, suffer from insomnia and anorgasmia. For me these side effects come and go. But, what a bitch it is to take so long to ejaculate! I'm lucky that girls put up with me. Sure, it's great for the first hour, but nobody's looking for marathon sex every night. And, if I don't finish the job, it can be downright painful! Can anyone suggest a remedy?
Posted by action_jackson on August 26, 2002, at 23:45:58
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences? » kregpark@yahoo.com, posted by gypsea on August 20, 2002, at 18:36:54
Hi there -
Wow I was checking out my old mailbox "Kregpark" for first time in months - but timing was OK - only missed msg by 1 week...
Side effects with Nardil?
Are you at a high dose?
If so - one idea is to lower dose and add low Klonopin. Also - at low and medium dose Nardil augmentation is probably more feasible. You will find this idea unpopular - but very low dose stimulants are not necesarrily contraindicated - eg; ritalin. I couldn't recommend - but in such a combo - which can be very effective both in efficacy and as prosexual / proenergy - I think a low to medium dose Nardil with low dose stimulant is preferable ... Klonopin augments nicely with all low to medium dose MAOI's nicely also ...Simply going down from high Nardil to medium dose though - and adding Klonopin - I think that can be an excellent strategy (was for me!) - Klonopin often increases libido, does not retard ejaculation as so many meds either ...
Later,
Ray .... now ....
Chad http://www.socialfear.com/
Posted by timidly on January 26, 2003, at 22:34:14
In reply to Re: Nardil (phenelzine) or Parnate MAOI experiences?, posted by action_jackson on August 26, 2002, at 23:45:58
> Hi there -
>
> Wow I was checking out my old mailbox "Kregpark" for first time in months - but timing was OK - only missed msg by 1 week...
>
> Side effects with Nardil?
>
> Are you at a high dose?
> If so - one idea is to lower dose and add low Klonopin. Also - at low and medium dose Nardil augmentation is probably more feasible. You will find this idea unpopular - but very low dose stimulants are not necesarrily contraindicated - eg; ritalin. I couldn't recommend - but in such a combo - which can be very effective both in efficacy and as prosexual / proenergy - I think a low to medium dose Nardil with low dose stimulant is preferable ... Klonopin augments nicely with all low to medium dose MAOI's nicely also ...
>
> Simply going down from high Nardil to medium dose though - and adding Klonopin - I think that can be an excellent strategy (was for me!) - Klonopin often increases libido, does not retard ejaculation as so many meds either ...
>
> Later,
>
> Ray .... now ....
>
> Chad http://www.socialfear.com/
>
Combining stimulants with MAOIs has helped me tremendously - currently taking 120 mg Nardil and 60 mg Ritalin. One of the factors that contributed to my Pdoc trying the combination was that a side effect of the the Nardil kept my blood pressure rock solid at 120/80, eliminating the need for my anti-hypertension meds. When I started the combination of Nardil and Ritalin my vital signs were monitored every 15 minutes for 4 hours, and every 4 hours for the entire period of ritalin dosage increase. The potential dangers of the combination deserves respect and serious consideration (as do the diet restictions). Personally I adhere to the diet and OTC med restrictions extremely rigorously. I will never play russian roulette by trying beer, pizza, et.al to "find out" if my system can handle it. Even if remote, the potential consequence of death is not one I'm willing to gamble with.
From the "for whatever it's worth" department.
This is the end of the thread.
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