![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 14:40:52
Hi,
Before I start a flame war from concerned message board members, let me explain my subject heading...For as long as I can remember, I've been an extremely nervous and "emotionally dead" individual. I usually shy away from situations that require an emotional response, whether that be confronting someone when I feel that I've been victimized (Anger) or being honest with my feelings in an intimate situation (Love). Rather than allow myself to experience such emotions, I can feel my nervousness level skyrocket. As a self-defense mechanism in such situations, I usually become hostile and abrasive to others. Now to the issue of recreational drugs ...
It wasn't until I experimented with ecstasy that I began the process of seeking help. I started researching the drug and looking for medications that could benefit me in much the same way. From that research, I went to my school counselor and requested a prescription for an SSRI (Starting with Paxil). After giving Paxil 4 weeks with little improvement (And quite a few side-effects), I went back and inquired about Effexor XR (Even though my ecstasy research mentioned nothing about the norepinephrine neurotransmitter). Luckily, Effexor has proven to be of some benefit (150 mg's). My sense of pessism towards everything has lifted slightly and my level of nervousness has decreased sharply. I still, however, suffer from a complete lack of motivation. Now on to my question ...
Last week I experimented with crystal methamphetamine. This drug releases huge amounts of dopamine into the brain. The "high" I experienced on this drug was nothing like I've ever felt before. I felt incredibly open (Actually hugging the friends I was with), motivated (To the point of doing homework when I got home), and filled with a sense of happiness and belonging. I'm afraid to talk to my counselor about this since I receive scholarships/free meds/etc. Should I inquire about Wellbutrin? Thanks for your help.
Posted by LynnPerley on July 26, 2002, at 14:56:50
In reply to Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 14:40:52
How can you get meds from a school counselor? Just curious . . . I hope you are being monitored by a qualified physician. As far a crystal meth, avoid it. That stuff is evil. Maybe these "legal" prescription meds we all talk about here have similar effects on the brain, are just as bad, have potential to be addicting, whatever you may say, but the prescription drugs are produced under controlled conditions. Never again will I take a substance that is cooked up in someone's kitchen and is made of poisons added to a legitimate substance. You have *no idea* what stuff could be in the crystal meth you took. Just a thought.
Posted by whitewave on July 26, 2002, at 15:40:07
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ... » MrRatt, posted by LynnPerley on July 26, 2002, at 14:56:50
Crystal meth is made from a process so toxic and dangerous that when a lab exploded during a drug "bust" a DEA agent wearing one of those HAZMAT got some of the by product in his mouth and ran outside under a tree and started scooping dirt in his mouth to try and stop the pain. He died. The tree died too. It doesn't seem like an industry worth supporting. Also had a BP friend who shot crstal meth. He became more isolated and less able to have intimate relationships because those he developed while on the drug became solely related to the drug and the rest of his friends couldn't support his drug use. But to answer your question sure ask about Wellbutrin. Aren't school counseling sessions confidential like ALL other therapy sessions?
Posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:08:32
In reply to Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 14:40:52
You need a proper diagnosis and evaluation. Are you seeing a medical doc ?
Posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 16:32:23
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:08:32
> You need a proper diagnosis and evaluation. Are you seeing a medical doc ?
Yes. The person I'm seeing at school is a psychiatrist. She, in my opinion, is horrible however. She always fails to remember my name or what we discussed in previous sessions. Our meetings never last for more than 15 minutes. I see her more as a prescription pad than a medical doctor. She is, unfortunately, all that is available to me through the university. Is there anyone out there that can relate to my problem of being emotionally disconnected? If so, what medications have you tried?
I realize the hazards of meth use. I also *luckily* don't have an addictive personality.
Posted by velaguff on July 26, 2002, at 16:43:53
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:08:32
Wellbutrin works great for some people who need a stimulant type AD, but don't want or can't get real prescription speed. It didn't work for me. The trouble with meth, you'll never "learn" to act like you're on it, when you're not on it. It just changes your brain chemistry so much, that's unrealistic. I've done it, and would like to feel that way all the time, but we should look for sustainable, long-term strategies. Meth can fry your dopaminergic system, leaving you a permanent bedridden slacker. If you have read any of my windbag posts (I only joined a few days ago), you'll see I'm obsessed with "memantine", an alzheimer's drug that supposedly prevents tolerance to prescription speed (script is better cleaner safer), and to opiates, as well. I think all the bad things about prescriptospeed are due to tolerance. With Memantine & no tolerance buildup wouldn't prescriptospeed be great for depression? AND....weight control? "Diet Pills", in the 1960's sense of the phrase, might once again be viable, only safer and more effective in the long run. I SEE NO REASON WHY DEXEDRINE AND MEMANTINE CAN'T BE COMBINED IN THE SAME CAPSULE. We're becoming a nation of land whales, we shouldn't rule out promising options.
Posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:45:22
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 16:32:23
> I realize the hazards of meth use.
No you don't ! Because you made this statement:
I also *luckily* don't have an addictive personality.
With drugs as strong a meth it does not matter.
Posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 16:56:59
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by velaguff on July 26, 2002, at 16:43:53
My friend got a large prescription for Ritalin filled that she has offered to let me try. I've snorted it before at a party and liked the effects. Have you tried it?
Posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 17:04:26
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:45:22
May I ask what meds you are on and what problems you are treating?
Posted by fairnymph on July 26, 2002, at 18:11:41
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:45:22
> > I realize the hazards of meth use.
>
> No you don't ! Because you made this statement:
>
> I also *luckily* don't have an addictive personality.
>
> With drugs as strong a meth it does not matter.
>
>
I beg to differ. I have used crystal meth on many occasions and have never suffered any negative effects or addiction. Some people can handle recreational drugs, some cannot.People often talk about how addictive opiates are...I have had opiates prescribed to me for over five years for pain and NEVER used them recreationally. I shot heroin once but found it to be a boring experience...
Blame the user not the drug.
Oh, and meth is NOT that much stronger than say, dexedrine. Yeah it's more euphoric but still...the addition of that methyl group does not change the drug THAT dramatically.
To mr.ratt --I think if nervousness is a problem than Wellbutrin might not be the best drug for you. I suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder which is an anxiety disorder as well as depression and I have been taking wellbutrin for two weeks now...I am doing alright now but I BARELY got through the first week and a half of tremendous anxiety. The more stimulating antidepressants are likely to make your anxiety/nervousness worse.
I would suggest that you try upping your effexor dose. I found that effexor worked well but only at doses of 300+ mg daily.
If you still don't find that a higher dose helps, I suggest trying another SSRI, perhaps a more 'stimulating' SSRI like zoloft or prozac before trying wellbutrin.
Just my 2 cents.
~fairnymph
Posted by fairnymph on July 26, 2002, at 18:14:11
In reply to Re: Experimenting ... - To velaguff, posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 16:56:59
If you've done meth then ritalin will be a tremendous disappointment. I find it is very weak and only gives me a headache...no rush no euphoria no stimulation...worthless IMO.
If you are going to do drugs, you are much better off spending your money on more worthwhile substances (such as meth).
Posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 18:36:15
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by fairnymph on July 26, 2002, at 18:11:41
> Oh, and meth is NOT that much stronger than say, dexedrine. Yeah it's more euphoric but still...the addition of that methyl group does not change the drug THAT dramatically.
Not really, it is stronger dose for dose than
d-amphetamine and much longer acting.
Posted by velaguff on July 26, 2002, at 19:58:30
In reply to Re: Experimenting ... - To velaguff, posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 16:56:59
Yes. My MD agreed to allow me to try it about a year ago, but only at 5mg twice daily. He refused to up the dose. As an instantaneuosly acting drug, since I had a month's supply (300mg in all), when I figured out after the first couple of days that 5 mg X 2 was stupidly inadequate, I spent the next couple of days snorting the rest. What's the harm, just something I have to hand. Rit doesn't produce the same euphoria that other "speeds" do, but, when you want to focus on something, I at least found greater powers of concentration. There's considerable mood elevation, just don't expect a "meth" rush. By the way, I'm 44 years old, and was diagnosed with ADD in 1965. In those days, it was a rare diagnosis. I still feel I have "adult" ADD today, but, at his point, I feel it's more a side effect of depression than anything else. To a certain extent, one can outgrow it, people's experience seems to suggest....but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated, maybe just that treatment won't necessarily be needed on a lifetime permanent basis. My depresssion is lifetime, and permanent, and, as yet, remains untreated. Thankfully, I'm smart enough to get through life, in a marginal way, essentially, as a cripple (but a mind is a terrible thing to waste). Some people in my situation end up on the street. They may not have my intellect, but morally, that doesn't make them any less deserving of happiness, or effective treatment.
> My friend got a large prescription for Ritalin filled that she has offered to let me try. I've snorted it before at a party and liked the effects. Have you tried it?
Posted by Terri C. on July 27, 2002, at 11:38:21
In reply to Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 14:40:52
I had a terrible experience on Effexor and did some research about this medication after suffering some serious side effects. At that time, about a year ago, the web page for Effexor listed one of the side effects as drug and alcohol abuse. Just an FYI.
Posted by Terri C. on July 27, 2002, at 11:55:13
In reply to Re: Ritalin, posted by fairnymph on July 26, 2002, at 18:14:11
> If you've done meth then ritalin will be a tremendous disappointment. I find it is very weak and only gives me a headache...no rush no euphoria no stimulation...worthless IMO.
>
> If you are going to do drugs, you are much better off spending your money on more worthwhile substances (such as meth).If you follow the above-noted suggestion, you're bound to eventually experience drug addiction.
>> better off spending your money on more worthwhile substances (such as meth).>>
I'd challenge the writer to define "worthwhile substances." Meth is made by drug dealers who have only one goal...to make a drug as inexpensively as they can and to sell that drug for as much money as they can. As an ex meth addict, I've had meth so good that all I wanted was more, more, more...and meth so bad that my head pounded with pain during every unrelenting hour of being awake. In recovery now for 13 years, I look back and wonder how I lived through it all. I certainly won't advocate to anyone that meth is a "worthwhile substance." Realistically, who really knows but the drug cookers, and can we really trust their testimony?
Posted by colin wallace on July 27, 2002, at 15:05:49
In reply to Re: Ritalin, posted by Terri C. on July 27, 2002, at 11:55:13
I was pretty amazed to discover that effexor, when combined with alcohol, felt VERY similar to ecstasy (without the initial, overwheming rush).Others have reported this too, as I recall. If I drank a beer or two whilst on effexor, and any dance-type music was being played, I'd hardly be able to keep still, and would dance for hours(not that I've indulged in recreational drugs often- too destabilizing for me!)Otherwise though, effexor made me feel pretty rotten.
Perhaps the manufacturers could extend the patent by marketing it as a 'safe' recreational dance drug?? Just add beer.
Posted by oracle on July 27, 2002, at 17:03:44
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by Terri C. on July 27, 2002, at 11:38:21
> I had a terrible experience on Effexor and did some research about this medication after suffering some serious side effects. At that time, about a year ago, the web page for Effexor listed one of the side effects as drug and alcohol abuse. Just an FYI.
As you expressed this it is "junk science" That
1 or 2 persons, while in an Effexor study of 1,000's, abused drugs does not show a relationship between the 2. But it does get reported, just as the "side effects", some very significant, that the folks in the study report while on sugar pills.Effexor, as with most AD's , block MDMA (and analogs) and junk science have turned this into
"Effexor is just like X".
Posted by tim mayo on July 27, 2002, at 21:59:12
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by oracle on July 27, 2002, at 17:03:44
not sure where to start here to throw in my two cents on this. my only real qualifications on this subject are these: a deadhead who understand experimenting with rec. drugs,a recovering alcoholic who no longer experiments with anything recreational and one who was recently placed on adderal. im not sure i ever experimented with anything to medicate myself that i knew of. i know now that was what i was doing, trying to medicate myself. today i know to leave it to someone who really does or at least know how to do it, like a doctor. it just seems to me that if i was poking around into something like meth because it helped me more than adderall than chances are im just using it as an excuse to over medicate myself. i would have to ask myself am i trying to feel 'normal' or not feel at all? just as people tell me we all suffer from some add i feel thats true for depression but i have to find the point for me that is toleable not using rec drugs.
tim
Posted by Jackd on July 29, 2002, at 0:03:20
In reply to Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 14:40:52
You seem like a bright guy. Don't get into Crystal Meth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the list of most addictive substances known to man goes like this: 1.Nicotine 2.Methamphetamine 3.Crack.... You get the idea.
And don't give me bullshit about not having an "addictive personality". It's always the shy nervous ones who find a quick fix for their problems who become raging alcoholics or benzyl alcoholics.
Meth gives you a high so amazing that nothing in real life can compare. I mean, it feels better than that first kiss, that first roller coaster ride, that first time at the stadium. Really it does. How can anything else compare to a powder that can give you all that instantly?
I'm not saying don't use it, or that it's going to do damage from a few times, but I can't tell you how many seemingly normal, whitebread straight edge kids I've seen flicking needles a week after doing meth. But don't take my word for it.
Don't use your experience on meth as a guideline to how you want to feel or what medicine you want to be on. EVERYONE feels how you did on meth. If you want to be dead or in jail quick, or get a random assortment of movement disorders then become a hedonist.
I would stick with the SSRI's and maybe add a stimulant like ritalin or something. Just don't be a pussy and take the easy way out, be a man. Trust me you'd probably never know but I was painfully shy too, and I couldn't even imagine how I'd be now. Hang in there.
Posted by fairnymph on July 29, 2002, at 20:37:40
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by Jackd on July 29, 2002, at 0:03:20
> You seem like a bright guy. Don't get into Crystal Meth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the list of most addictive substances known to man goes like this: 1.Nicotine 2.Methamphetamine 3.Crack.... You get the idea.
You are wrong. Opiates are more addictive that amphetamines. Stimulants can be very psychologically addictive but their physical addiction potential is low. Cocaine/crack is not at all physically addictive, btw.
Alcohol is more physically addictive than meth and kills more people....do you ever drink?
>
> And don't give me bullshit about not having an "addictive personality". It's always the shy nervous ones who find a quick fix for their problems who become raging alcoholics or benzyl alcoholics.I'm not the shy nervous type so I can't comment. Regardless, I doubt it's possible to generalize so broadly...
> Meth gives you a high so amazing that nothing in real life can compare. I mean, it feels better than that first kiss, that first roller coaster ride, that first time at the stadium. Really it does. How can anything else compare to a powder that can give you all that instantly?
You are wildly exaggerating. MDMA may compare a bit to a first kiss...but that's where the drug/real life comparisons stop. Yeah, meth is great fucking high...but it's not the best thing ever. And if you think it is, you haven't experienced life fully.
>
> I'm not saying don't use it, or that it's going to do damage from a few times, but I can't tell you how many seemingly normal, whitebread straight edge kids I've seen flicking needles a week after doing meth. But don't take my word for it.A WEEK? For chrissake, take your goddamn propaganda elsewhere. You remind me of the DARE cop who told me that he saw a some guy on 'angel dust' (ie pcp) "take his eyeballs out with his own hands". Scare tactics are lame.
>
> Don't use your experience on meth as a guideline to how you want to feel or what medicine you want to be on. EVERYONE feels how you did on meth.This part at least is true. You can't be on meth all the time and nor should you be...you need to know how to deal with life in other ways.
> If you want to be dead or in jail quick, or get a >random assortment of movement disorders >then become a hedonist.Guess what, not EVERYONE who does drugs goes to jail or dies or develops parkinsons...in fact most people don't! So stop spewing out this kind of nonsense..
> I would stick with the SSRI's and maybe add a stimulant like ritalin or something. Just don't be a pussy and take the easy way out, be a man. Trust me you'd probably never know but I was painfully shy too, and I couldn't even imagine how I'd be now. Hang in there.
This advice is alright...though I still despise ritalin. I don't think he is a 'pussy' though for being shy.
Posted by Terri C. on July 30, 2002, at 22:37:44
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by oracle on July 27, 2002, at 17:03:44
This was the Effexor manufacturer's "junk science" and was rated as "frequent" and not "rare," which would support that more than one or two people were reporting this experience. Regardless, it was posted in the Effexor manufactuer's website and was confirmed and documented as valid information regarding the medication.
Not a 'dis' on Effexor, just an attempt to share authentic information.
Posted by BekkaH on July 30, 2002, at 23:08:50
In reply to Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by MrRatt on July 26, 2002, at 14:40:52
I hate taking drugs of any kind, but right now I need them for my depression and cognitive problems. I hope I can do without drugs someday, but I don't know whether that's possible. I can understand how college-aged kids might want to experiment with recreational drugs once or twice, but after all the years I've spent on medicines for my depression, I have a really hard time understanding how anyone would want to take drugs on a regular basis if they don't absolutely have to take them.
Posted by Jackd on July 30, 2002, at 23:19:26
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ... » Jackd, posted by fairnymph on July 29, 2002, at 20:37:40
Hmmm... though your post deems little dignity for response, I will attempt to educate you.
> You are wrong. Opiates are more addictive that amphetamines. Stimulants can be very psychologically addictive but their physical addiction potential is low. Cocaine/crack is not at all physically addictive, btw.When I say addictive, I mean addictive psychologically/physiologically. They kind of go hand in hand. And btw, I didn't just pull that out of my ass, empiracally that really is the list of most addictive substance for humans.
> Alcohol is more physically addictive than meth and kills more people....do you ever drink?Physically, yes, but all things considered it is not nearly as addictive. And I drink quite heavily and am able to stop for months. Meth heads who I have been close friends with keep doing it compulsively until, as I said, they die or go to jail. Again, I have witnessed it, I'm not telling stupid urban legends or myths like "I knew a guy who knew a guy.... etc". If their is no trust between us than why even bother debating?
> I'm not the shy nervous type so I can't comment. Regardless, I doubt it's possible to generalize so broadly...
Isn't that how people relate and live their lives? Generalizing? If I really need to explain that you need to open your eyes. Oh yeh, and I was being sarcastic...
> You are wildly exaggerating. MDMA may compare a bit to a first kiss...but that's where the drug/real life comparisons stop. Yeah, meth is great fucking high...but it's not the best thing ever. And if you think it is, you haven't experienced life fully.It's all relative, and besides, I was exaggering to make a point.
> A WEEK? For chrissake, take your goddamn propaganda elsewhere. You remind me of the DARE cop who told me that he saw a some guy on 'angel dust' (ie pcp) "take his eyeballs out with his own hands". Scare tactics are lame.
Propaganda? You sound like the over-typified cynical rebellious narrowminded youths so humorously stereotyped in films. Again, this was actual first hand experience, take it or leave it. I mean, honestly, if that had been your experience, wouldn't you want to share it with other would-be meth users as incredulous as it would sound?
> This part at least is true. You can't be on meth all the time and nor should you be...you need to know how to deal with life in other ways.
I sense bias and hostility throughout your reply, whereas I was simply sharing information and words of caution as a benevolent more experience individual. I have dabbled with all sorts of drugs, from the tame to the mind blowing, and seen both worlds, where as you obviously seem stuck or inclined to lean in just one.All I have to say is, have you honestly ever met a casual meth user? Do you know what drug is sweeping small towns in the country leaving ashes of murder, theft and voilence? Don't believe me? Read some statistics. Do some homework before naively huffing and puffing with your infantile assumptions and misconceptions.
> Guess what, not EVERYONE who does drugs goes to jail or dies or develops parkinsons...in fact most people don't! So stop spewing out this kind of nonsense..
I didn't say everyone, I was making a point. Do you know how to properly try to persuade or write persuasively? I don't mean misleading. From my personal experiences, my friends' experiences and friends of friends' experiences, and news articles and stories and statistics, I have come to these conclusions. What do you know? Really. You think I'm going to come out here to scare people? Have you ever been to NA meetings in San Diego, LA, small towns in AZ or TN? You are so naive.
You haven't even experienced enough to make anything close to an opinion, so why object mine? That's just plain ignorance, and it's almost laughable if it wasn't so dispicable.
> This advice is alright...though I still despise ritalin. I don't think he is a 'pussy' though for being shy.
Hahahahaha. When did I ask you if you liked ritalin...? Are you somehow twisting this thread into relating to you or directed toward you somehow? Does the universe revolve around you?
I NEVER said he was a pussy for being shy. Jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth again. I simply said "Don't be a pussy and take the easy way out". How you would interpret that as you did is beyond me and speaks volumes about your intellect and emotional intelligence.
Stick to watching MTV and vehemently hating government restrictions without knowing why. Or better yet, read some books, meet some more people, and figure out that there's more out there than your little world.
Posted by oracle on July 30, 2002, at 23:39:36
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ... » oracle, posted by Terri C. on July 30, 2002, at 22:37:44
> This was the Effexor manufacturer's "junk science" and was rated as "frequent" and not "rare," which would support that more than one or two people were reporting this experience. Regardless, it was posted in the Effexor manufactuer's website and was confirmed and documented as valid information regarding the medication.
>
> Not a 'dis' on Effexor, just an attempt to share authentic information.
>
>I do not find this in the monograph so it remains misquoted junk science. What "effexor site" are you talking about ?
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 31, 2002, at 8:07:03
In reply to Re: Experimenting with recreational drugs ..., posted by Jackd on July 30, 2002, at 23:19:26
> Yeah, meth is great fucking high...but it's not the best thing ever. And if you think it is, you haven't experienced life fully.
> take your goddamn propaganda elsewhere.
> stop spewing out this kind of nonsense
>
> fairnymphYour opinions may differ, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down or use language that could offend others:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
----
> your post deems little dignity for response
> And btw, I didn't just pull that out of my ass
> You sound like the over-typified cynical rebellious narrowminded youths so humorously stereotyped in films.
> I sense bias and hostility throughout your reply
> Do some homework before naively huffing and puffing with your infantile assumptions and misconceptions.
> Do you know how to properly try to persuade or write persuasively?... What do you know? Really.... You are so naive.
> You haven't even experienced enough to make anything close to an opinion, so why object mine? That's just plain ignorance, and it's almost laughable if it wasn't so dispicable.
> Are you somehow twisting this thread into relating to you or directed toward you somehow? Does the universe revolve around you?
> Stick to watching MTV and vehemently hating government restrictions without knowing why. Or better yet... figure out that there's more out there than your little world.
See above.
> I was being sarcastic
> I was exaggering to make a point.
And please don't be sarcastic or exaggerate, either.
Bob
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