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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Seraph on June 9, 2002, at 3:33:25
I'm currently taking 40 mg of Celexa, and a small pill of Effexor (can't remember the dosage) each morning. I drink occasionally (no bad effect..I'm a lightweight and don't drink much), and every now and then take a Loritab, usually with a little alcohol (no bad effects). I was considering trying MDMA, but am not sure about any severe reasons not to?
P.S. What about with Prozac?
Posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 12:53:03
In reply to Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by Seraph on June 9, 2002, at 3:33:25
The good news is that celexa may reduce the likelihood that a dose of mdma would kill off your serotonin containing neurons: it has some protective effect against mdma induced damage.
The bad news is two-fold: it's still a neurotoxic drug, and with celexa you most likely will not experience as much noticeable effect from mdma as otherwise. It may be a lot less fun.
If you have serotonin neuron death from mdma, you may end up needing a higher dose of celexa to keep you out of depression/anxiety than otherwise.
Trying not to lecture, just trying to pass on what I've read.
kate
-----------------
: Life Sci 2001 Feb 9;68(12):1367-82 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Prior exposure to methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) induces serotonergic loss and changes in spontaneous exploratory and amphetamine-induced behaviors in rats.Harkin A, Connor TJ, Mulrooney J, Kelly JP, Leonard BE.
Department of Pharmacology, National University of Ireland, Galway. andrew.harkin@nuigalway.ie
The substituted amphetamine 3,4 methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) is a popular recreational drug of abuse. Administration of MDA to experimental animals has been shown to induce damage to serotonergic axons and nerve terminals. However, there is a lack of information on whether these treatments can produce any long-term changes in behavioural performance particularly under stressful conditions. In the present study, MDA (7.5 mg/kg; i.p.) was administered twice daily to adult male Sprague Dawley rats for four days. Four weeks following the last dose, spontaneous behaviors of these animals were tracked and scored in a novel "open field" environment using an automated video registration and computer interpretation system. Changes in behavior were observed in MDA treated animals including reductions in exploratory oriented behaviors (locomotion and rearing) and increases in grooming behavior when compared to vehicle treated controls. MDA-treated animals also displayed an enhanced locomotor and stereotyped response to d-amphetamine (12 mg/kg; i.p.). Significant reductions in 5-HT concentrations (20-30%) were observed in the frontal cortex, amygdala, striatum, and hypothalamus as a result of MDA treatment. In addition, [3H] paroxetine binding was reduced by (40%) in the cortex of MDA treated rats indicating that the decrease in 5-HT concentrations were accompanied by a reduction in intact presynaptic 5-HT nerve terminals. Changes in behavioural performance in a novel "open field" environment and following d-amphetamine challenge might be considered as a behavioural model of serotonergic deficit induced by MDA. The findings of this study also suggest that MDA use may increase both the abuse potential, and the propensity to develop psychosis as a result of abusing other psychostimulants such as d-amphetamine.
PMID: 11388689 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 14:41:01
In reply to Re: Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 12:53:03
No wonder they got brain damage...thats the equivalent of swallowing about 8 pills a day all week !!
Posted by oracle on June 9, 2002, at 15:47:42
In reply to Re: Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 12:53:03
> The good news is that celexa may reduce the likelihood that a dose of mdma would kill off your serotonin containing neurons: it has some protective effect against mdma induced damage.
>
> The bad news is two-fold: it's still a neurotoxic drug, and with celexa you most likely will not experience as much noticeable effect from mdma as otherwise. It may be a lot less fun.This only applies to rats, at high doses.
Posted by jonh kimble on June 9, 2002, at 20:06:37
In reply to Re: Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 12:53:03
>and with celexa you most likely will not experience as much noticeable effect from mdma as otherwise. It may be a lot less fun.
yes, from what i hear, ssri use will really reduce the effect that you feel. In fact people i know have said they had no effect at all while on ssri's, while others with them (not on ssri's) were in full force euphoria. dont know why this happens though
p.s. i while ago me and some friends took some mushrooms (2- 3g.) while i was on parnate. i had no effect at all, while they certainly did. i heard something about maoi's causing so much serotonin that psylocybin simply is competing with to many serotonin molecules, hence the lack of effect. anyone else know any thing about this?
jon
Posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 20:15:20
In reply to Re: Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by oracle on June 9, 2002, at 15:47:42
I'm not really against the use of X. Just very cautious. I think anyone should get to use whatever they wish in their own body!
Long term repeated X users do report more subsequent depression than other people. Obviously its hard to know why they used X in the first place: if they had subclinical depression to begin with that would account for the finding entirely. It's hard to experiment on humans once the drug's been classified the way it has.
It seems unlike pot and alcohol and stimulants, X hasn't been around long enough to know very well what the long term effects might or might not be: what do people who are 70 who've done it once a month feel like? It's relatively new and that is never a plus.
There are many well known drugs where different species of animals respond to a much different dose. For example, one pill of tylenol will kill a cat, but an equivalent dose would be well tolerated by a human. We do have different chemistry than experimental animals. Whether for X that works in our favor or the other way around is really hard to know. We can all will our brains to science and ask them to check what happened, but it's going to take a while.
Obviously if you've already tried it and found it not to affect your overall happiness/empathy abilities then you've done that experiment and it may well be completely safe for you at the doses you have taken in the past.
Some shrinks advocate it's use in therapy: helps get through bad memories etc and has great utility.
I would guess occasional use is less safe than pot but not as bad as binge drinking every night.
I didn't mean to come across as wholly negative -- as I'm not -- I've never tried it and would love to experience the effects if it were well known to be as safe as aspirin -- but it does scare me and I'm cautious.
kate
Posted by oracle on June 9, 2002, at 23:19:34
In reply to Re: Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 20:15:20
Given all the horror rat studies produce, one would expect, as people have been doing
speed and MDMA since the 60's (and MDMA use was very heavy in the 1980-90's), that
there would be reports of folks very messed up in large numbers. At least there should
be if the rat studies are highly predictive towards human drug users. I also find it absurd
to call something "damage" when the life cycle (and cause and effect) of changes
in microscopic neurology is far from well known in any species.But, but, but.....
I do not have to understand microscopic changes to know that regular high doses of
any amphetamine analogue do reverse AD's. I am not sure if speed like drugs rid the body of AD's, just counteract
the balance the AD's cause, or something else. Moderation in all things. I feel that if one has never done drugs and
is now on meds, now is not the time to try them.I would like to know how much longer we are going to shoot up rats when
the true cause of the neurological damage is known. It was demonstrated
some time ago (and any speed freak has known for 20+ years) that
most of the stims, at levels of abuse signaficantally impair the bodies
ability to rid itself of heat. Your brain is a huge user of blood and has
a lot of heat to dissipate. Since the rats are not at a Rave, they have no cool down room.
Their brains cook themselves, in the name of science. Just to prove the "War on Drugs" is working.
Posted by fairnymph on June 10, 2002, at 0:23:20
In reply to Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by Seraph on June 9, 2002, at 3:33:25
> I'm currently taking 40 mg of Celexa, and a small pill of Effexor (can't remember the dosage) each morning. I drink occasionally (no bad effect..I'm a lightweight and don't drink much), and every now and then take a Loritab, usually with a little alcohol (no bad effects). I was considering trying MDMA, but am not sure about any severe reasons not to?
> P.S. What about with Prozac?You won't be able to feel the effects of the MDMA, I can almost gaurantee you.
Read the following for a more detailed explanation: http://www.bluelight.nu/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=003963
~fairnymph
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 8:17:52
In reply to Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by Seraph on June 9, 2002, at 3:33:25
I had memory problems just from combinations of an AD with a (legal) anti-nausea drug I got in the ER. I wouldn't risk the possibility of long-term damage for one fun night of MDMA, just as I would never have traded in one night of nausea for my memory if I had known the effects.
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 12:31:21
In reply to Re: Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 12:53:03
>Changes in behavior were observed in MDA treated animals including reductions in exploratory oriented behaviors (locomotion and rearing) and increases in grooming behavior when compared to vehicle treated controls.
perhaps they went crazy getting ready for some music and instead just getting fed more pills...
.to be honest it makes me ill to think of a human getting fed that much E without any will to take it or any water or any music....and those little creatures do we really have to do these tests..its horrific..
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 12:40:17
In reply to Re: Antidepressants + MDMA?, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 8:17:52
I went out clubbing on friday..somehow I don't see how I would get my rollerblades on skate through the city to a private warehouse..and lose my head enough to get three hours of great physical workout without the drugs...these ideas just would not occur to me...
Also I notice how my memory improved when the nite was over and meeting new people, I could recall all sorts of aspects about my life relevant to the topics brought up, that I would struggle to remember normally...
How can anyone compare the choices I made to use the drug to have such a great time..compared to the torture those rats went through..
how do you place a value on happiness and the effect it has on your brain...
thanks to those availible altered states I feel just great today, have made friends and got my skating legs back ...
Posted by JohnX2 on June 10, 2002, at 14:41:58
In reply to rats grooming for a good nite out...??, posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 12:31:21
> >Changes in behavior were observed in MDA treated animals including reductions in exploratory oriented behaviors (locomotion and rearing) and increases in grooming behavior when compared to vehicle treated controls.
>
> perhaps they went crazy getting ready for some music and instead just getting fed more pills...
>
> .to be honest it makes me ill to think of a human getting fed that much E without any will to take it or any water or any music
>....and those little creatures do we really have to do these tests..its horrific..Who do you want to do these tests?
In what capacity do you propose the safety of new
designer drugs be tested? You wanna volunteer? Or maybe
see if a chimp drops dead first?John
Posted by Mr Beev on June 10, 2002, at 17:30:22
In reply to AD's and Recreational Drugs » Seraph, posted by fairnymph on June 10, 2002, at 0:23:20
> Read the following for a more detailed explanation: http://www.bluelight.nu/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=003963
> ~fairnymphI should very much like to thank you for this most informative link! My own experiences, albeit limited, confirm the data
contained therein. I have taken marijuana and/or alcohol with SSRIs without ill effect. I have also taken alcohol with
venlafaxine (Effexor) with no adverse effects. Occasional over-indulgence in alcohol has produced only the usual ill effects
associated with it.I often wonder about caffeine and nicotene interactions....
Best regards,
Mr Beev
Posted by fairnymph on June 11, 2002, at 5:40:02
In reply to Re: AD's and Recreational Drugs » fairnymph, posted by Mr Beev on June 10, 2002, at 17:30:22
Thanks! I wrote that simply because there isn't any data/info like it around....
As for nicotine and caffeine, I am not aware of any antidepressants which can't be combined safely with them. Although, I did get bad headaches from caffeine while I was on reboxetine...
~fairnymph
Posted by Minmaster on June 11, 2002, at 6:04:26
In reply to Re: AD's and Recreational Drugs » Mr Beev, posted by fairnymph on June 11, 2002, at 5:40:02
i have taken X while taking SSRI and it is no fun at all. I took X while I was taking paxil once and celexa once and the presence of SSRI made the X useless. while on SSRI's, I was however able to peak on X but after peaking, I got barely any effects of X. one of those times, i really had a bad trip on X because all night i was waiting for the X to kick in. first time while on paxil i took 3 pills and 2 while on celexa, and that was a total waste of money. I have heard that taking an SSRI after coming down from X however helps prevent brain damage. However, I am now on remeron and I took X on it and that was actually a good trip for the night. however, being used to taking multiple pills because of SSRI, i carelessly dropped 1 and half potent pills while on my remeron and I got really really fuq'd up. however, I was even more messed up when i mixed that with marijuana and an energy drink when i was coming down. although i had a good time that night, what happened to me the coming week was something that scared me pretty bad. a day later, I felt a very weird feeling of X and remeron mixed with weed and energy drink, where I felt my heart beat really fast, and when i smoked out, i was totally wasted, and the dizziness from remeron made me collapse and trip out. i was totally out of it. two days after dropping the X, I had a sudden rush of the X rolling feeling. it would've been fine if i was at the club, but i was at home, alone in my room. that was a bad bad trip. i was very scared and thought i was gonna die. i felt really alone and helpless. now that i think about it, the X i took while on remeron lasted a really long time. it lasted from sat. nite to sunday till noon, and then it went away only to come back on tuesday, but im not sure wut the heck i was feeling that day. i really do believe that taking X a lot will mess up ur capacity to feel happiness. when im on X its great and all, but afterwards, we all know we go through that depressed phase. anyways what i have realized is if you are on any SSRI, the X is gonna be useless, even if u take 2 or 3 pills... other AD's, i dunno, but as far as remeron is concerned, it didnt block the X.
Posted by oracle on June 11, 2002, at 11:52:27
In reply to my personal experience, posted by Minmaster on June 11, 2002, at 6:04:26
> i have taken X while taking SSRI and it is no fun at all.
Most AD's block MDMA. Increasing the dose of MDMA to counter this is asking for trouble.
O
Posted by Tool on June 12, 2002, at 0:05:39
In reply to my personal experience, posted by Minmaster on June 11, 2002, at 6:04:26
my thoughts on this are as follows: taking E while on any antidepressants is useless, period. As a second thought, pure mdma is NEVER in pill form. every pill you've ever bought has been cut with something, and it messes with the effects. I got pure MDMA powder (called "molly" around these parts) from a respectable chemist once, and I took about 140mg of it, and let me tell you, it was a fantastic and mind-numbing trip. It lasted every bit of 8 hours, and it was better than even the first time (now when have you ever heard that before). The comedown was smooth, almost like sobering up from an evening of drinking, and there was no depression after, quite the contrary, I felt happy to simply be alive and breathing for a few days. My point in all this? Pure mdma is far safer than the shit you buy on the street, which is often a cocktail of drugs with some mdma or mda thrown in, but since it's illegal, people will continue to hurt themselves with oddball drug combos. Oh, and doing E while on ssri's is useless. If you do ecstasy while on an maoi, I think you deserve to die for being so dumb.
Posted by fairnymph on June 12, 2002, at 15:09:22
In reply to Re: my personal experience, posted by Tool on June 12, 2002, at 0:05:39
" I got pure MDMA powder (called "molly" around these parts) from a respectable chemist once, and I took about 140mg of it, and let me tell you, it was a fantastic and mind-numbing trip. It lasted every bit of 8 hours, and it was better than even the first time (now when have you ever heard that before)."
Sorry, but unless you have bipolar or are taking a MAOI, you did NOT have MDMA. Possibly you had MDA, or something else...
MDMA lasts 3-5 hours in effects, NOT 8 hours.
And yes, I have had pure MDMA.
~fairnymph
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2002, at 0:06:20
In reply to Re: my personal experience » Tool, posted by fairnymph on June 12, 2002, at 15:09:22
> Sorry, but unless you have bipolar or are taking a MAOI, you did NOT have MDMA. Possibly you had MDA, or something else...
>
> MDMA lasts 3-5 hours in effects, NOT 8 hours.This sort of thing is subject to a lot of interindividual variation. It's not unheard of that, for whatever reason, a drug's effect lasts longer for some particular person than it does for most people. I've encountered this sort of thing before; the cause may be pharmacokinetic.
(I can assure you that a person who took MDMA with an MAOI would not describe the experience as "wonderful," assuming that they were alive afterwards to describe it! :-) )
> And yes, I have had pure MDMA.
Pure? I know few who can say that! Where'd you get it? I guess when it was legal it was easier to get, but I don't know how great the quality was even then.
On another note, I read through your drug interactions web site, and there really are quite a few errors. I commend you for taking the time and effort to write the page, and I'm sure you want people to be getting accurate info, right? Anyway, I can point out the mistakes I found, if you'd like. I think it's a well written and well designed page overall, it's just that some of the information is wrong.
-elizabeth
Posted by omega man on June 15, 2002, at 21:09:44
In reply to Re: rats grooming for a good nite out...?? » omega man, posted by JohnX2 on June 10, 2002, at 14:41:58
It just hit me what these creatures go through..its pretty cruel..I just got to the stage where I can eat meat again, because I know the cows are happy and never see the end coming..
now I'm beginning to wonder if the same consideration is given to the mental lives of rats..with the same sensitivity about meat eating creeping into my head about whether the drugs I take were designed with the maximum consideration to the design of experiments that minimize the discomfort of rats by breeding lines of creatures resistant to pain so the resultant cancers don't hurt them etc etc......
we would rather pay more to make sure this was the case...
would'nt we ?
Posted by JohnX2 on June 15, 2002, at 22:07:09
In reply to Re: treating rats properly.. » JohnX2, posted by omega man on June 15, 2002, at 21:09:44
> It just hit me what these creatures go through..its pretty cruel..I just got to the stage where I can eat meat again, because I know the cows are happy and never see the end coming..
>
> now I'm beginning to wonder if the same consideration is given to the mental lives of rats..with the same sensitivity about meat eating creeping into my head about whether the drugs I take were designed with the maximum consideration to the design of experiments that minimize the discomfort of rats by breeding lines of creatures resistant to pain so the resultant cancers don't hurt them etc etc......
>
> we would rather pay more to make sure this was the case...
>
> would'nt we ?Some good points.
I don't know, its a trade off. Where to draw the line.... Spend more money to decrease pain and
suffering in rats, or use these same funds to increase R&D which may ultimately decrease pain and
suffering in people...John
Posted by JonW on June 15, 2002, at 23:05:52
In reply to Re: treating rats properly.. » omega man, posted by JohnX2 on June 15, 2002, at 22:07:09
I have to say I'm bothered if animals are used to test things like eyeliner or something, but I think it's justified when researching a new treatment for something like bipolar disorder.
If these same tests could be done so that the animals experience no pain without any repercussions to the research then I definitely vote for that! However, I absolutely support the idea that it's OK to induce as much pain as is necessary in rats to get the results for the research & development of new drugs -- only if this method is likely to do so sooner, of course. And might I say, such a decision should only be regarded as altruistic.
From Hell,
Jonp.s. It turns out we should have been worshiping these rats as god... who knew?! ;-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 16, 2002, at 16:07:59
In reply to Re: treating rats properly.. » JohnX2, posted by JonW on June 15, 2002, at 23:05:52
> I have to say I'm bothered if animals are used to test things like eyeliner or something, but I think it's justified when researching a new treatment for something like bipolar disorder.
There's nothing wrong with discussing the use of animals to test things, but it should continue over at Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
Bob
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