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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 30, 2002, at 14:03:38
I've been taking Klonopin 1 mg 3x per day for daytime social anxiety for a long time now, but I am thinking of switching to a different benzo, since I'm somewhat dissapointed with Klonopin's anxiolytic effects. For anti-anxiety/anxiolytic Klonopin does not seem to work nearly as well 2-3 Beers does.
Here are the three I was thinking of switching to-
Ativan (lorazepam)- One book I have says this is "the most potent of the available benzodiazepines".
Tranxene T (clorazepate dipotassium)- "Anxiolytic with actions, uses, & interactions qualitatively similar to those of Ativan but with fewer unwanted side effects, e.g. sedation." This has an onset of 1 hr but a duration of 24 hours, but it looks like it might metabolize to the same metabolite as Valium. Is Tranxene T (immediate release) a strong benzo like Ativan or Klonopin or a weak one like Valium?
Xanax (alprazolam)-
"associated with significantly less drowsiness. Has antidepressant as well as anxiolytic actions".
Are any of these three (Ativan, Tranxene, or Xanax) better than Klonopin for daytime anxiety/social phobia or closer to the 3 Beer Effect i've been searching for?
(I take Ambien 10 mg for sleep, so their sleep-inducing properties aren't important to me).Alcohol easily seems to be the best anxiolytic ever created-i've never found anything even remotely close.
3 Beers.................
Posted by DiscoPuppy on May 30, 2002, at 15:01:56
In reply to Ativan vs Tranxene vs Xanax vs Klonopin???, posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 30, 2002, at 14:03:38
I'll drink to that.
I've taken Xanax, Ativan AND Klonopin and I can say that out of the three, the Ativan was most effective in terms of helping me with my anxieties (social, and otherwise).
The problem with Xanax was that I couldn't take it during the day. I work in an environment where I have to be alert, so I can't be dosing off as I do when I am taking Xanax.
Klonopin just kinda made me very spacey. It took a lot longer to process information in my head. Also, I get very clumsy on it - total loss of coordination.
I do not have these problems with Ativan. I feel very confident and talkative with this ready-to-take-on-the-world attitude.
If you're interested in other side facts, which may or may not make a difference in your situation, I am also taking 300mg Wellbutrin bid. My doctor may switch me to a stimulant.
Puppy
Posted by gheld on May 30, 2002, at 21:03:15
In reply to Ativan vs Tranxene vs Xanax vs Klonopin???, posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 30, 2002, at 14:03:38
Yep. Alcohol is the quickest and best for me too, for a few hours; then I get a rebound effect with anxiety worse than before I drank. I find the short term benefit is not worth the long term rebound, which usually happens in the middle of the night with me. I'm talking about serious drinking, not a couple of glasses of wine.
Posted by Katalina on May 31, 2002, at 12:23:13
In reply to Ativan vs Tranxene vs Xanax vs Klonopin???, posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 30, 2002, at 14:03:38
I take klonopin prn, which I have deemed to be daily at least .5 mgs. twice a day. I find it helps mellow me out, although I do feel a little sedated/spacey on it. I would be interested in Xanax, and have taken it a couple times recreationally in the past (with a few drinks) but have doubts about whether my pdoc will prescribe on a regular basis.
Anyway, question for you 3Beers . . . I like to imbibe on 4-6 beers or 3-4 margaritas a couple of nights a week when I go out. I find taking an Adderall and a klonopin with the few drinks to be the best "loosening up" combo around. Somtimes I wonder though if I'm defeating the effects of taking meds (was on Effexor, switching to Celexa) drinking as frequently as I am (I know it's not a whole lot, but I can definitely tell I'm building a tolerance to alcohol). I only weigh a 100 lbs or so and seem to be able to drink as fast if not faster than others and not feel all that buzzed.
How often to you have a few beers? Is it infrequent or more of a daily thing? Just curious. I know I should try to cut back. I definitely don't have a problem drinking, I'm just out enjoying myself after being couped up with two toddlers all day for the past 3 years.
Katalina
Posted by JonW on May 31, 2002, at 13:06:21
In reply to Tolerance to Alcohol (3 Beers), posted by Katalina on May 31, 2002, at 12:23:13
> Anyway, question for you 3Beers . . . I like to imbibe on 4-6 beers or 3-4 margaritas a couple of nights a week when I go out. I find taking an Adderall and a klonopin with the few drinks to be the best "loosening up" combo around. Somtimes I wonder though if I'm defeating the effects of taking meds (was on Effexor, switching to Celexa) drinking as frequently as I am (I know it's not a whole lot, but I can definitely tell I'm building a tolerance to alcohol). I only weigh a 100 lbs or so and seem to be able to drink as fast if not faster than others and not feel all that buzzed.
Hi Katalina,Klonopin + Adderall + Alcohol would loosen anyone up! :) I'm not sure it's the best thing to be doing while trying to cure a mental illness, though. Here's a quote from Dr. Goldberg's list of ways to speed recovery from depression:
"4. Totally abstain from the use of alcohol and recreational drugs. . Alcohol and street drugs both induce depression and prevent antidepressants from working effectively. If you must drink, limit your intake of alcohol to not more than three units of alcohol PER WEEK. (A unit of alcohol is a 12 oz. bottle of beer, a 4-oz. glass of wine, or a 1-1/2 oz. shot of whisky.) Totally avoid the use of street drugs."
You can see the rest of his tips here:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.hints.html
I'm not saying you have a problem with addiction or anything but you might want to look up "alcoholism" on the internet just to see if you identify in any way.
Good Luck,
Jon
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 31, 2002, at 14:19:05
In reply to Tolerance to Alcohol (3 Beers), posted by Katalina on May 31, 2002, at 12:23:13
I personally haven't drank since Sept 11th of last year but I do think the definition of alcoholism is greatly exaggerated in the United States. A great number of people in Europe drink every day with no stigma, & 1-2 drinks per day is supposed to have positive effects on cardiovascular health & lowering cholesterol.
The main sign of alcoholism is regularly drinking in the morning (as an eye opener), or at/before work. Having a few drinks on Thursday, Friday, or Saturday night does not make you an alcoholic. At worst, you would be a "problem drinker" if you binged on the weekends & had blackouts. I used excessively binge drink in college simply because alcohol is the best anxiolytic/confidence enhancer out there, but never drank Sunday-Wednesday & never had withdrawl symptoms ever.
One thing to be careful of is that a binge of alcohol (4+ drink in one sitting for women), will defeat the effects of most anti-depressants (especially serotogenic ones like SSRIs, Effexor). One big blackout binge can take you back to square one depression that you had before you even started the medication and then you will have to start all over again & wait for 4 weeks for it to work again.
Alcohol decreases serotonin & in binge amounts is a depressant (at least after the drunkeness wears off). (1-2 drinks is stimulatory, excitatory to the brain).
Klonopin with Alcohol as you probably know potentiate each other. I have friends that take Xanax with alcohol & can't remember anything the next day. It is said this combo could be very dangerous in excessive amounts (resperitory depression), but the most likely scenario is that you would black out (off a much lower dose of alcohol than normal) & do something you regret. I never drank & drove ever & was always the one preventing/convincing other people from drinking & driving, but the first time I tried Xanax & drank alcohol I blacked out & got a DWI.
Adderall + Alcohol increases talkativeness & "disinhibition" & is not as dangerous as a benzo + alcohol- the Adderall probably makes it more difficult to get "drunk".
3 Beers
Posted by JonW on May 31, 2002, at 16:13:56
In reply to Alcohol SSRIs, posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 31, 2002, at 14:19:05
> I personally haven't drank since Sept 11th of last year but I do think the definition of alcoholism is greatly exaggerated in the United States. A great number of people in Europe drink every day with no stigma, & 1-2 drinks per day is supposed to have positive effects on cardiovascular health & lowering cholesterol.
Hi 3beers,
Congrats on not drinking since 9/11! I haven't had a drink in about a year and I know how hard it can be when you see a beer commercial, etc.
I don't mean to feed any "stigma" this country may have, but I wouldn't want to discourage Katalina or anyone else from educating themselves about alcoholism. It's true that europe has a different attitude about alcohol, but at the same time, about half of the European countries have intoxication rates among young people that are higher than the intoxication rates in the United States. I wonder if the United States doesn't have the better attitude?
It's true that moderate drinkers (1 unit per day for women, 2 units per day for men) have a lower risk of heart disease, but correlation does not necessarily equal causation. It's important to make this distinction.
In the end, I suppose I'm a hypocrite as I'd much rather be drunk right now ;)
Jon
Posted by geno on May 31, 2002, at 16:37:37
In reply to Re: Alcohol SSRIs » 3 Beer Effect, posted by JonW on May 31, 2002, at 16:13:56
3 beers, i have to tell you. I drank for years and nothing was good as a few cold ones for social phobia and disinbition. UNTIL if found GHB. For me GHB is 10x better than alchol. It just makes me feel on top of the world. I could literly say that comparing say a combonation of alchol+benzo+opitate, would make you feel great, but still ghb beats that! Thats why i cannot stop ghb. Yes i dont drink anymore, not have any craving for alcohol. Atually, i drank 3 beers on easter. I became extremely depressed and violent. I then took a dose of ghb, and became the most social, fun loving guy. MMMMMMM
geno
Posted by DiscoPuppy on May 31, 2002, at 17:14:05
In reply to Ativan vs Tranxene vs Xanax vs Klonopin???, posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 30, 2002, at 14:03:38
Ok I just came up with a drawback for Ativan. I've tolerated Ativan to the point where I can't up my dosage anymore. Never had that problem with Xanax or Klon.
Needless to say, my bottle of Ativans are totally wasted.
> I've been taking Klonopin 1 mg 3x per day for daytime social anxiety for a long time now, but I am thinking of switching to a different benzo, since I'm somewhat dissapointed with Klonopin's anxiolytic effects. For anti-anxiety/anxiolytic Klonopin does not seem to work nearly as well 2-3 Beers does.
>
> Here are the three I was thinking of switching to-
>
> Ativan (lorazepam)- One book I have says this is "the most potent of the available benzodiazepines".
>
> Tranxene T (clorazepate dipotassium)- "Anxiolytic with actions, uses, & interactions qualitatively similar to those of Ativan but with fewer unwanted side effects, e.g. sedation." This has an onset of 1 hr but a duration of 24 hours, but it looks like it might metabolize to the same metabolite as Valium. Is Tranxene T (immediate release) a strong benzo like Ativan or Klonopin or a weak one like Valium?
>
> Xanax (alprazolam)-
> "associated with significantly less drowsiness. Has antidepressant as well as anxiolytic actions".
>
>
> Are any of these three (Ativan, Tranxene, or Xanax) better than Klonopin for daytime anxiety/social phobia or closer to the 3 Beer Effect i've been searching for?
> (I take Ambien 10 mg for sleep, so their sleep-inducing properties aren't important to me).
>
> Alcohol easily seems to be the best anxiolytic ever created-i've never found anything even remotely close.
>
> 3 Beers.................
Posted by johnj on May 31, 2002, at 23:56:40
In reply to Ativan vs Tranxene vs Xanax vs Klonopin???, posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 30, 2002, at 14:03:38
Hello,
I don't know if I can answer any of your questions, but I have been on tranxene for over 8 years or so. I originally took 7.5 mg in the morning and at night. The morning dose seemed to have me yawning like crazy, but it took a few months for that to subside. I stopped the am dose about 2 years ago, but have started upping my dose to the original total of 15 mg again. I didn't want to do it, but I had some things happen that made anxiety too hard to handle. Thus far, I am doing better, but seem a little depressed or blunted. Don't get me wrong the current feeling is MUCH better than the anxiety feeling. I think tranzene is ok for the long term. When I cut back on the 7.5 mg a few years back I had some strange leg twitching and it subsided rarely quickly. I don't remember any anxiety or sleep issues at that time. I do wonder about xanax since it has AD properties(or so I have heard). Can't they make an XR of xanax or something?? Good luck and let me know what you decide. Johnj
Posted by Katalina on June 1, 2002, at 5:31:09
In reply to Re: Tolerance to Alcohol (3 Beers) » Katalina, posted by JonW on May 31, 2002, at 13:06:21
Jon,
Thanks for your reply. I know I'm negating the effects of my AD when I drink, yet I continue to do so. While I do have the tendency to overdue it when I'm drinking (can't stop at 1 or 2, which may or not mean I have a problem) it's only when I'm out socially having a really good time. I always have beer in my fridge and it could sit there forever before I drink it. When I'm on meds I don't feel the need to drink at all at home or to relax. It's only when I'm in a social, bar atmosphere that I get a little carried away.
I think next time I go out, I'm going to really force myself to just stick to 1 or 2, as a test to my willpower. Thanks for the encouragement!
Katalina
Posted by tim mayo on June 2, 2002, at 11:37:57
In reply to Alcohol SSRIs, posted by 3 Beer Effect on May 31, 2002, at 14:19:05
"The main sign of alcoholism is regularly drinking in the morning (as an eye opener), or at/before work. Having a few drinks on Thursday, Friday, or Saturday night does not make you an alcoholic. At worst, you would be a "problem drinker" if you binged on the weekends & had blackouts. I used excessively binge drink in college simply because alcohol is the best anxiolytic/confidence enhancer out there, but never drank Sunday-Wednesday & never had withdrawl symptoms ever."
not being an expert on much and just diagnosed with add i cant a lot. but i do have to take exception to the above statement. as one who is an admitted alcoholic i know that no two alcoholics can be stereotyped like that. even on my worst day i never drank before work but i sure did a lot of other things later in the day. i also know for myself one thing i did was mix alcohol and pills to obtain a desired effect. i know alot of "normal" drinkers who would think that is crazy. what i have found is that alcohol is a symptom of a illness i have that runs alot deeper then what time or when i drank.
just my two cents.
tim
This is the end of the thread.
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