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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by IsoM on May 8, 2002, at 13:19:12
Here's the piece I mentioned I'd post if it was alright with Dr. Bob (it is). Be warned - not all with agree & it REALLY is long but I'm a detail freak.
I’m not sure if you want me to back up my info with sources. If you do, I’ll dig around the best I can, but much of this I’m offering is based on my reading medical, science, & nutrition journals over the years plus listening to any news on health that came out & researching it more when I could – I gleaned for friends, family, & my own benefit so never thought of saving sources to back it up.
Nutrients can be broken into a number of categories so that’s what I’ll do to try to make it more understandable. Hope I succeed & don’t instead complicate it. One category is not more important than another so my list is just as the ideas come into my mind.
Vitamins:
A &D
Both vitamin A & D are combined in halibut liver oil capsules. I know that RDAs call for 5,000 IU of A & 400 IU of D, but it’s based on the old info & the fear that people would buildup high levels in their liver from the enrichment of other foods like milk & butter. I think the failed attempt of the Antarctic by Roald Amundsen & his team who died horrible deaths from vitamin A toxicosis eating their dogs (& particularly their livers) did a lot to scare doctors about vitamin A.
D has been found to be far more useful than ever imagined before. Previously, it was just thought to help with bone & teeth formation but is used by the body for immunity, heart disease, joint diseases, etc. I’d recommend 10,000-20,000 IU of A & 800-1,600 IU of D daily. I take the upper amount – 4 capsules daily.
The Merck manual, plus others, mention 50,000-100,000 IU of A or more (AT LEAST) daily, long-term for adults before toxicity problems.The B Complex
You say you take a balanced B complex tablet daily. Most brands that say balanced mean all the numbers are the same [i.e. all 20 or 50 or 100 mg or mcg of the vitamins], but that way of packaging the B vitamins always upsets me. I think it’s unscrupulous of the manufacturers. It’s the most unbalanced way of combining them. [It’s like making a cake with either 2 cups or 2 teaspoons of everything – 2 cups flour, sugar, butter, milk, cocoa powder & 2 teaspoons baking powder, salt, etc. It would be a disaster.] Our bodies need more of some of them than others. Taking your B complex in pill form, the best bet is to choose a “stress formula”. That’s about the best form you’ll find. The stress formula will often include vitamin C & that’s fine. While I take a B complex tablet daily [half in the morning & half in the evening], I think it’s good to get your B vitamins from foods too, which is why I use nutritional yeast flakes [like brewer’s or torula’s but tastier]. The flakes are not just high in B vitamins but many minerals too like magnesium, iron, manganese, zinc, chromium [it’s gained interest with its connection with preventing diabetes] & selenium plus it’s about 50% protein. I also use a lot of wheat germ in baking. Some B vitamins are lost, but not badly, in baking but every bit helps. Whole grains of all sorts plus dried legumes also add more B vitamins. Lactobacillus from yogurt churns out B vitamins in our gut – though I’m not sure how much is absorbed from the lower intestine. I do take extra folic acid & B12 to be careful as you do. You’re taking choline which I think is good. I still haven’t added it to my supplements but have been considering it. It certainly wouldn’t harm. Don’t bother with lecithin capsules as a source of choline – they’re mostly oil & the amount of choline is quite low in them.
The B complex is a very important nutrient group, essential to proper metabolism, enzymatic pathways, & neurotransmitter production among others.C
Timed released vitamin C is good. I don’t think people need the esterfied type unless they are so sick that their body needs all the help it can get for absorption. I take mine morning & evening as the timed-release occurs over a period of about 8 hours. Still make sure you get fresh food forms of C like veggies & fruits daily. In foods, you don’t get straight C but bioflavanoids, rutins, & other related nutrients.E
Make sure you get the natural form not the synthetic. Most vitamins are the same molecularly, both natural or synthetic. The only difference is where they were synthesized – a lab, our body, or a plant. But with E, it IS different. It’s a mirror image version [like the difference between our right hand & our left] & the synthetic version is nearly as chemically active in our body & is thought to be somewhat toxic actually. Natural version will always say D [or small d] alpha tocopherol while synthetic says DL [or dl].
I’d suggest at least 400 IU & probably not more than 800 IU daily.EFAs
Essential fatty acids are best gotten from foods. I do think having a bowl of unsalted mixed nuts & snacking on them through the day is great. I’d recommend using flax seeds as much as you can. I buy hemp seed oil & use that too. Use sesame seeds like tahani butter [easy & cheap to make your own in a food processor]. I think rather than just relying on salmon oil, I’d use a mixture. Salmon oil, but also cod liver oil [the vitamins A & D aren’t very high in them as compared to halibut], flaxseed oil, primrose oil – all capsules & take perhaps one or two of each depending on how much you can tolerate without your GERD bothering you. Foods ARE really the best way to get the EFAs. [Check out this link: http://math.ucsd.edu/~ebender/Health%20&%20Nutrition/Nutrition/oil_good.html ]K
Still not a lot known about this except how it’s used in blood clotting. I think a balanced diet in raw vegetables & fruits plus intestinal bacteria activity provides all we need.Minerals:
Calcium
I prefer a chelated form of calcium as we don’t absorb some forms nearly as well. Calcium citrate or calcium gluconate are both chelated. There is a big difference in the forms the minerals come in. About 500-1,000 mg daily is needed depending on different factors.Magnesium
Ditto for magnesium – a chelated form is best, otherwise you just end up with the calcium & magnesium mostly just neutralising your stomach acid. Magnesium should be roughly one half of the amount of calcium for the best balance.Other Minerals
Don’t overdo the zinc – more is not better. I prefer to get my supplemental minerals from the nutritional yeast & a good assorted diet of veggies & fruits. Chromium is a plus in the yeast flakes. [And contrary to how many think, yeast flakes doesn’t make any yeast infection worse. Yeast flakes is the by-product of live food (not bread or beer type) yeast & is completely inert & dead & has been treated by heat. Not to mention, yeast infections & yeast organisms used to grow these flakes are in entirely different families! Like saying because carrots & apples are both dicot plants, a bad reaction to one gives problems with the other.]Glucosamine
Personally, I’ve not found glucosamine to be beneficial but some are convinced it is. It’s certainly not harmful so if some are benefited, I see no reason to discourage them except for possibly the costs, but it’s not that expensive. The reason I don’t believe it to be helpful is based on the same reason that diabetics can’t take insulin orally but need to inject it. The molecule is a large, complex one that its broken down by the digestive system into its component parts. http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/glucosamine.html
Any glucosamine I get comes from my making soup from bones & the resulting broth. If it gels when cool, it contains glucosamine.
You might also want to check out a glucosamine online study being done at the Boston University School of Medicine: http://etrials.bumc.bu.edu/ It’s no longer taking on more people though.Much of what I’ve read about a study linking it to improved joint health comes from the same study which only involved 212 people, though there’s more studies that have been done but most are considered ambiguous. I think when the BUSM study comes out, it may have better info, but I still think an online, unsupervised study isn’t the best. I completely agree that glucosamine supplementation is far safer than NSAIDs even if it doesn’t improve cartilage re-growth. [Vitamin C was found to be effective in re-growth of cartilage years ago though]. Glucosamine doesn’t cause damage as NSAIDs can.
About any supplements, it’s best to take with food. If you don’t have enough food in your stomach, much of the B complex vitamins will be flushed out in your urine [the bright yellow colour from B2]. Oil soluble vitamins absolutely need food to be used as bile needs to be released into the stomach to aid with absorption. You’re better off dividing some of your doses into smaller ones throughout the day as you eat. Remember, in nature, our vitamins & minerals come contained in food, not capsules!
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And lastly, this site has a short list of some foods with interesting info about them. I don’t know if you’d find it useful but you can always look. But, at the top of the page are also links to anti-oxidants & trace minerals in foods. I’m giving this site ’cause I still think the best source for nutrients is food. We’re just beginning to understand how various nutrients & essential chemicals work together so I think it’s important to make sure that the foods we eat are the main source of our nutrition, not just supplements. When I used to manage a health store, many years ago, I was dumb-struck by the number of people who just wanted to eat their average unhealthy, high junk food diet & simply take pills or supplements to make everything better. People are still the same, if not worse, due to more nutrients known & being available in pill form. I don’t think you’re like that at all but hope you do find these links useful.
Food Index [not much is listed yet but it’s still in the works]
http://math.ucsd.edu/~ebender/Health%20&%20Nutrition/Foods/foods.html#anchor61870A person does need to get a good balance of enough protein & complex carbohydrates too but you probably know that already. Without sufficient protein, our body can’t make the hormones, neurotransmitters, different enzymes needed, let alone repair cellular damage. As for a special diet or supplements for bipolar disorder, I don’t think there’s enough evidence saying that anything we take can alter something like this, or even help that I know of. It may be an area I just haven’t heard of.
Hope this covers it all & doesn’t overwhelm you. I tend to give more, rather than less, info as it’s what I would want from others.
Posted by Chloe on May 8, 2002, at 19:49:22
In reply to Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious, posted by IsoM on May 8, 2002, at 13:19:12
IsoM,
Thanks for sharing this with all of us. Not too long and definitely not tedious. It's much appreciated :-)Chloe
Posted by janejj on May 8, 2002, at 21:04:02
In reply to Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious, posted by IsoM on May 8, 2002, at 13:19:12
Hello,
Thanks for posting that information. Its given me alot to think about ! I'm thinking about adding some supplements to my diet now. I'm a vegetarian so I know that I'm missing out on b12, its hard to be so consistent about getting it in my diet, even though I eat healthily, so maybe supplements are the way to go. Maybe i might even be able to stop taking prozac one day, or maybe not !!
How do you remember to take them every day though? especially if you are taking a few.
Hope you're well,
Jane
Posted by Leighwit on May 9, 2002, at 14:24:29
In reply to Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious, posted by IsoM on May 8, 2002, at 13:19:12
Posted by Krazy Kat on May 9, 2002, at 14:41:22
In reply to Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious, posted by IsoM on May 8, 2002, at 13:19:12
i am such a "dog freak", or should that be "dog kaerf"?, that the first thing i saw was "eating their dogs". i thought, "hmmm, is dog liver a new hot supplement in some country? i'll have to protest!" ;)
Seriously, thanks a lot for this. what a great deal of help it will be long term.
- kk
Posted by IsoM on May 10, 2002, at 1:20:16
In reply to Re: Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious » IsoM, posted by janejj on May 8, 2002, at 21:04:02
Hi Jane - right now I'm not doing too bad mentally but did something funny to my ribs at work by bending over in a weird way. I felt something go 'pop' & a sharp stab of pain. Oh well, if it gets worse, it's workman's compensation for a while. I don't mind.
I keep my supplements with my meds in a handy, attractive green cardboard box :-) & it's such a habit that I rarely forget to take them. I've been taking some supplements for about 30 years now (since I first managed a health food store) & it's simply habit.
Personally, I think our nutrients should mostly come from our food, but just how nutritious is most of it now, especially the way it's grown & marketed? And then again, I'm not sure the nutrients in our foods, alone, are enough to counter the pollutions & environmental poisons we now encounter. I consider supplements to be extra insurance. Other than my neurological problems & arthritic-like pains, I'm amazingly healthy for my age - never get sick & can outdo most people my age in stamina & strength.
Posted by IsoM on May 10, 2002, at 1:23:36
In reply to do you know... » IsoM, posted by Krazy Kat on May 9, 2002, at 14:41:22
KK, you made me smile with that one - dog liver instead of hot dogs. :-)
I read that in one Oriental country where cats are a preferred food item, that they cut the poor cat's heads off before packing the meat. It's said that cat's ear wax is pretty horrible & will taint the whole meat. Not sure I could ever eat something I considered pets, dogs or cats.
Posted by Zo on May 11, 2002, at 3:59:13
In reply to Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious, posted by IsoM on May 8, 2002, at 13:19:12
. .on Lamictal? And dry hair? Iso, I have a hot cereal of ground flaxseed every day, like 1/4 cup, I eat tahini, healthy mayo, canola oil .. what fatty acids am I missing? Or maybe it's silica. .. Silica is hair and nails, right?I look pretty dumb with half-toenails.
Zo
Posted by IsoM on May 11, 2002, at 12:22:15
In reply to Re: Why are my toenails breaking » IsoM, posted by Zo on May 11, 2002, at 3:59:13
Your fatty acids are probably good enough - do you get any fish oils too? Even from your diet?
Lamictal, I know little of. But I can think of a few causes of your problems, outside of any side-effects of Lamictal.1. Breaking toenails:
As we get older, our toenails are more liable for fungal infections due to being inside shoes or slippers most of their life, & from being banged or stubbed so often. Fungal infections can enter through minor cracks in the toenail. In our forties & fifties, the infections aren't too obvious - just show as more brittle nails. But as we get in our sixties & seventies, the nail takes on a yellowish cast & thickens. It's very rare to find a person in their sixties & seventies with healthy, nice looking toenails. It's one of the commonest things dermatologists treat in their aged patients. There's an oral medication that's been developed to treat fungal infections in nails but it's side-effects can be horrendous - *irreversible* liver damage. Brittle, ugly toenails is preferrable, thank you.Because you just mentioned brittle toenails & not fingernails, I'm wondering if you haven't got a fungal nail infection. Have you stubbed your toes much through your life?
2. Dry hair:
How's your TSH level? Hypothyroidism could be a cause but you've probably checked that already.How much protein do you take in each day? Insufficient can affect hair (among other things), not just low EFAs. Sulphur containing amino acids in protein are particularly good for keratin (skin & nail health). Here's a link to some simple but good info on sulphur:
http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/article.asp?PageType=article&ID=2066
and this quote from another source:
"METHIONINE (Essential Amino Acid) Is a principle supplier of sulfur which prevents disorders of the hair, skin and nails; helps lower cholesterol levels by increasing the liver's production of lecithin; reduces liver fat and protects the kidneys; a natural chelating agent for heavy metals; regulates the formation of ammonia and creates ammonia-free urine which reduces bladder irritation; influences hair follicles and promotes hair growth."As for silicon (silica), I remember from my geology, it's the most common mineral in the Earth's crust. It's common in plant tissues & if you're eating enough vegetables, fruits, & unrefined foods, you're probably getting plenty. Oatbran is a very good source of it.
Lastly, hormonal changes & differences (thyroid has been mentioned) can cause changes, even with a good diet.
Posted by judy1 on May 11, 2002, at 12:40:21
In reply to Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious, posted by IsoM on May 8, 2002, at 13:19:12
Thanks Judy! I smiled at your links- UCSD is where I go for my medical care and I'm really big on Omega 3's (although why the UCSD link is under the math dept. is a mystery to me, unless the biochem is housed there). Thanks again- Judy
Posted by IsoM on May 11, 2002, at 12:54:29
In reply to Re: Promised Post on Supplements - long and tedious » IsoM, posted by judy1 on May 11, 2002, at 12:40:21
I think it's 'cause it's a personal batch of info compiled by one of the guys in the math department, not actually from the medical section. Still, the info is good.
Posted by Zo on May 11, 2002, at 17:41:00
In reply to Toenails and Hair » Zo, posted by IsoM on May 11, 2002, at 12:22:15
But wouldn't my toenails look gross? They don't. Just. . .weency.There have been posts on Lamictal and "dryness." Is fish oil different than the omega3 in flax?
Thanks,
Zo
Posted by beardedlady on May 11, 2002, at 18:24:08
In reply to Re: Toenails and Hair » IsoM, posted by Zo on May 11, 2002, at 17:41:00
>Is fish oil different than the omega3 in flax?
Didn't we just clear this up on PSB? Three demerits and a pedicure.
beardy : )>
Posted by IsoM on May 11, 2002, at 19:32:53
In reply to Re: Toenails and Hair » IsoM, posted by Zo on May 11, 2002, at 17:41:00
Nope, for the first decade or two (especially if the fungal infection isn't seriously affecting your toenails), your toenails look fine - at the worse, they'll look a little yellower around the edge you cut than before. It's a very slow process. Not until the 60s or 70s do people's toenails start looking gross. BUT that doesn't mean you do have a fungal infection; just worth checking it out. If your fingernails are fine, it seems the most likely cause to me.
Here's a quote about the different Omega-3 fatty acids from the site I gave:"Omega-3 occurs in THREE forms ALA (alpha-linolenic acid), DFA (docosahexanoic acid) and EFA (eicosapentanenoic acid). Animals convert ALA to DFA and EFA, but our conversion rat*may* be inadequate. Thus, it is important to obtain all three. Plants contain ALA. In addition to the food in the charts below, seaweed is another good source of ALA. Cold-water fish are a good source of omega-3 fatty acids, but are low ALA."
Posted by Zo on May 12, 2002, at 6:13:15
In reply to different FROM, Zo » Zo, posted by beardedlady on May 11, 2002, at 18:24:08
Posted by paxvox on May 13, 2002, at 18:23:33
In reply to Re: Why are my toenails breaking » IsoM, posted by Zo on May 11, 2002, at 3:59:13
I'm not reading the other posts yet, but I have had my nails change since going on AD meds. They have not become brittle, but they have changed texture. It is like they are "wavy" or grooved like a rippled tater chip. Weird, don't you think?
PAX
Posted by Steeler Tookahn on May 13, 2002, at 21:02:08
In reply to Re: Why are my toenails breaking » Zo, posted by paxvox on May 13, 2002, at 18:23:33
> I'm not reading the other posts yet, but I have had my nails change since going on AD meds. They have not become brittle, but they have changed texture. It is like they are "wavy" or grooved like a rippled tater chip. Weird, don't you think?
>
> PAXI have the same thing (feet and hands). The dermatologist said fungus is the main cause but she checked and i don't have a fungus. It started slowly over the years and is really bad now. I've been on parnate for many years -it's the only med I've been on consistently but the docs don't think parnate caused it. 2 dermatologists are stumped and there is very little good info on the net.
Posted by paxvox on May 14, 2002, at 19:34:08
In reply to Re: Why are my toenails breaking, posted by Steeler Tookahn on May 13, 2002, at 21:02:08
Hmmmmm.....let me know if you find out anything about it.
PAX
Posted by IsoM on May 15, 2002, at 1:06:05
In reply to Re: Why are my toenails breaking, posted by Steeler Tookahn on May 13, 2002, at 21:02:08
Seeing both hair & nails are made of keratin, have you noticed any problems, or even diffeences, with your hair? I would think if your nails are affected but it's not a fungus, it's more likely to be a problem with keratin synthesis - perhaps relating to different protein production. You've got me curious now.
Posted by Steeler Tookahn on May 18, 2002, at 22:45:52
In reply to Only finger and toe nails affected? » Steeler Tookahn, posted by IsoM on May 15, 2002, at 1:06:05
> Seeing both hair & nails are made of keratin, have you noticed any problems, or even diffeences, with your hair? I would think if your nails are affected but it's not a fungus, it's more likely to be a problem with keratin synthesis - perhaps relating to different protein production. You've got me curious now.
I have not noticed any problem with my hair other than watching it turn gray as I age. My nails are also suffering from onycholysis. That is where the nail tends to pull away from the nail bed. This again is caused by either a fungus or trauma to the nail. Again, fungus is ruled out and trauma is out because it is happening to all toe and finger nails. It is amazing how little information doctors (and holistic health practioners) have on this. I'm glad its got you thinking. Any clues to this would be interesting. I just keep wondering if it's med related, even though I never see it listed as a side effect of any psych med.
Posted by IsoM on May 19, 2002, at 2:37:40
In reply to Re: Only finger and toe nails affected?, posted by Steeler Tookahn on May 18, 2002, at 22:45:52
Psoriasis, Reiter's syndrome, paronychia, pityriasis rubra pilaris, lichen planus, acrodermatitis continua, Bazex's syndrome, pachyonychia congenita (which is very rare & inherited), & lastly, onychomychosis all can cause nails to become more brittle & to separate from the nail bed. Now aren't you glad you asked?
Seriously though, I don't know that much about it but I know it can have many causes. Onycholysis is more a symptom than a diagnosis. Your dermatologist has probably checked out any that might apply to you.
If you want to check out more & put some questions to him/her, here's a site with further info on it & even more possible causes. I'm assuming you've read lots already about it though.
http://www.emedicine.com/DERM/topic299.htm
Posted by Zo on May 20, 2002, at 5:19:51
In reply to Brittle nails and Onycholysis » Steeler Tookahn, posted by IsoM on May 19, 2002, at 2:37:40
. .here I've been scarfing three.will report. definitely caused by Lamictal.
Zo
Posted by IsoM on May 21, 2002, at 0:24:11
In reply to Re: word from doc is omega SIX! » IsoM, posted by Zo on May 20, 2002, at 5:19:51
Zo, I don't think it's always a good idea to get too enthused about what's the latest & best. Either months or years later, you'll read that *new* findings show what was thought to be unhealthy isn't so bad after all & vice versa.
e.g. black tea, wine, olive oil (it was once thought to be unhealthy!), & many more if I start thinking back.Rather than target certain omega fatty acids, it's safer & cheaper to take something with a few different ones like the 3 & 6. I still prefer to get most of mine in nuts & oils in my diet - it's cheaper & there's going to be more benefits than just the known omega fatty acids. Foods always contain more than just those that are known, but a whole host of nutrients we're just starting to learn about that are collectively called phytonutrients or phyto-factors.
If anyone feels they benefit from taking extra, all the better for them, but a poor diet will more than negate extra supplements. (Not that I'd ever suggest that's what you're doing!)
This is the end of the thread.
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