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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JohnQ on April 18, 2002, at 20:00:52
Can anyone direct me to where I can find detailed copies of the studies done proving Klonopin's effectiveness in the treatment of Social Phobia? I checked Medline, but all I got were abstracts, which are not detailed enough. Anyone know where I can get my hands on old (or even new) copies of the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. Hopefully I can find it online, but if not, would a local university library have copies? Reason I want them so bad is I'm trying to convince my doc to let me start a maintenance dose of clonazepam, and I really want to produce as much info as possible, especially to refute his claim that everybody develops a tolerance to benzos. Can anybody help? Thanks.
Posted by Spongemomsquarepants on April 18, 2002, at 23:01:01
In reply to Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by JohnQ on April 18, 2002, at 20:00:52
Hi John,
Here are some links
http://www.socialfear.com/
http://www.anxietynetwork.com/spmed.html
http://www.bio-behavioral.com/socialphobia.aspThey may not be scientific, but they are supportive. I do not have social phobis, but I do have anxiety. I have NOT developed a tolerance to klonpin. I started out 8 years ago on 1 mg a day, and I take 1.5 mg a day for the past 6 years.
I think it is worth a try, however, I do know some people can get addicted to it.
Good luck,
Viki
Posted by katekite on April 18, 2002, at 23:11:20
In reply to Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by JohnQ on April 18, 2002, at 20:00:52
Hi,
I can't help with the refutation as from personal experience I've developed a tolerance to klonopin. Although over 10 months it hasn't lost its effectiveness completely, just I'm dependent in that I don't sleep unless I take it, and now have to find additional things to take to sleep.
Now as to finding that journal, any university library should have it, at the health or medical library branch. Sometimes a biology library will not have it, it might instead be in the medical library. If you go to a university web-page of your closest university you should be able to click on libraries and get basic info: to figure out which branch to go to unless its an all in one building. They are all completely open to the public. Ask a reference librarian to help when you get there. The journal itself has a call number, just like a book, so the information you need is all the stuff at the beginning of the abstract including the page numbers and journal issue number and author and title. Be sure you have the exact journal title as there are about a million ones that all have psychiatry in the title. I learned that the hard way. You can't take it out but can photocopy the articles. Also, another cool university library thing is usually if you go to the library and use the computers in the library they will have many journals on-line (universities pay extra to get on-line subscriptions), so that when you do a search you get the whole article and can often print it, sometimes for a small fee, sometimes free. The armchair approach rather than digging in the dusty bookshelves. But that last technique will only work for the newer articles since journals got put on-line only a couple years ago.
Hope that helps.
kate
Posted by tex1 on April 19, 2002, at 3:23:11
In reply to Re: Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by katekite on April 18, 2002, at 23:11:20
> Hi,
>
> I can't help with the refutation as from personal experience I've developed a tolerance to klonopin. Although over 10 months it hasn't lost its effectiveness completely, just I'm dependent in that I don't sleep unless I take it, and now have to find additional things to take to sleep.
Right, I agree with you. Anyone can develope a real tolerance and dependencefrom every benzo. Clonazepam will loose its effect later than other benzos but still will. Guaranteed.Tex
Posted by katekite on April 19, 2002, at 15:19:58
In reply to Re: Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by tex1 on April 19, 2002, at 3:23:11
Yep its addictive, for me. I wasn't having that much trouble sleeping when I started it, was supposed to be more for social anxiety. At first it did definitely help. After 7 months or so I tried to go off, maybe too quickly, maybe not, and got this bad rebound insomnia. I eventually had no choice but to up my dose again. It was either that or become dependent on two sleep aids not one. So now I am finally down to .375 mg per day. Yes I split the pills that small in order to come down slow. I'm about ready to taper down another 0.125 mg. I am pretty confident I will get off it this time, but I can't say 100% until about 3 weeks after I completely stop. So not something to start lightly.
Having said that, I also believe it still has some mild effect on social anxiety. And has helped me more than it hurt.
kate
Posted by andyboy on April 20, 2002, at 16:19:42
In reply to Re: Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by tex1 on April 19, 2002, at 3:23:11
Tex,
In all due respect- how can you possibly 100% guarantee that Klonopin will eventually become tolerated in an individual as far as its theraputic effects? So in esscense you are saying that everyone is the same and has the same body chemistry. That is undoubtedly a generalization (something for which I've had my "wrist slapped" on here before) and do not think it is fair and substantiated to guarantee a claim such as that. There are MANY individuals who have achieved a great deal of long-term success with the medication without tolerance.
Andy
Posted by Spongemomsquarepants on April 20, 2002, at 23:25:16
In reply to Re: Can anyone help with Klonopin studies? » tex1, posted by andyboy on April 20, 2002, at 16:19:42
> Tex,
> In all due respect- how can you possibly 100% guarantee that Klonopin will eventually become tolerated in an individual as far as its theraputic effects? So in esscense you are saying that everyone is the same and has the same body chemistry. That is undoubtedly a generalization (something for which I've had my "wrist slapped" on here before) and do not think it is fair and substantiated to guarantee a claim such as that. There are MANY individuals who have achieved a great deal of long-term success with the medication without tolerance.
> Andy
I am proof that not everyone has the *same* respsonse. I have been on the same dose or within .5 mg for the past 8 years or so and it does help me. I do think it can be a dangerous choice for people that have susbstance abuse issues or dependancies. Klonopin works with my "chemistry" and I very relieved that it has helped my anxiety.Viki
Posted by andyboy on April 21, 2002, at 8:06:16
In reply to Re: Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by Spongemomsquarepants on April 20, 2002, at 23:25:16
Vicki,
Its always comforting to hear individuals who have achieved long-term success with Klonopin. I have been 2mg/day for past year and it has done absolute wonders. It works just as well now as it did the first week. You know, you hear so much anti-benzo hype that it's difficult to think otherwise, but when I read about actual living, breathing individuals such as yourself versus a "scientific" study, it give me a great deal of optimism.
Andy
Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on April 21, 2002, at 15:56:01
In reply to Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by JohnQ on April 18, 2002, at 20:00:52
Hi John -
I read them - there are not very many - mainly or entirely by John Davidson as you may know.
A university library - depending on magazine.
I think maybe you are considering for movements also? If so feel free to email me. I got a knarly reaction (in between great effects) from low dose amisulpride (my stupidity to try this too hastily based on less than throughoug research and discussions on my part - though a Dr. did put me through all this and certainly screwed up as well)... fortunately looks like things are OK but I have some residual minor stuff still and am at this point a bit sensitive to acute changes in meds also, and I need to get this to go away 100% (no aggrevating possible).
Anyway - I am way down almost off Klonopin, dropped other meds including non-psychiatric too.
It is possible Klonopin may prevent remission of lingering dystonias. (There is "tardive dystonias" which are most common in younger males). I would not suggest trying to treat movement symptoms initially. Better to get rid of drugs first.
Good luck,
Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on April 21, 2002, at 16:03:40
In reply to Can anyone help with Klonopin studies?, posted by JohnQ on April 18, 2002, at 20:00:52
Hi John -
Klonopin tolerance does not normally occur. However there may be a stepped dose escalation every 1-3 weeks up to several times before "therapeutic level" is reached. Thus Klonopin works at low dose initially and quickly but eventually may lose effectiveness until dose raised - but this process eventually stops and you retain benefit (with possibly more side effects from higher dose).
However - those using Klonopin for *seizures* may develop rapid tolerance. Also - drug addicts are prone to develop addiction to benzos - but not those with legitimate anxiety disorders - who rarely become addicted. There is "dependence" - which as with some other classes of drugs means than abrupt withdrawal cause adverse effects and return of symptoms greater than with no medication. The solution there is gradual dose reduction - or something like gabapentin can facilitate a more rapid and/or anxiety free taper period.
Posted by Spongemomsquarepants on April 21, 2002, at 20:25:06
In reply to Re: ..... Klonopin tolerance....., posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on April 21, 2002, at 16:03:40
> Hi John -
>
> Klonopin tolerance does not normally occur. However there may be a stepped dose escalation every 1-3 weeks up to several times before "therapeutic level" is reached. Thus Klonopin works at low dose initially and quickly but eventually may lose effectiveness until dose raised - but this process eventually stops and you retain benefit (with possibly more side effects from higher dose).
>
> However - those using Klonopin for *seizures* may develop rapid tolerance. Also - drug addicts are prone to develop addiction to benzos - but not those with legitimate anxiety disorders - who rarely become addicted. There is "dependence" - which as with some other classes of drugs means than abrupt withdrawal cause adverse effects and return of symptoms greater than with no medication. The solution there is gradual dose reduction - or something like gabapentin can facilitate a more rapid and/or anxiety free taper period.
>
> Ray
> ray_3888@yahoo.com
> http://www.socialfear.com/Ray,
That is very interesting. I have been taking Klonopin for 8 years, and my dose varies from 1 mg to 1.5 mg over that time period. It does help with my anxiety. I have a son with severe epilepsy, and he was "weaned" from klonopin at one point. We literally had to shave pills. Klonopin does help one of his seizure types (Myoclonic) and he takes 6 mg a day and he weighs 54 lbs. (I weigh 80 more than him, and I think that would kill me!)
Thanks for your information.
Viki
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