Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by HMK on April 8, 2002, at 9:04:22
I've been using Effexor XR, Neurontin, and Geodon for the past year or so in an attempt to regulate my bipolar II. I also have an underactive thyroid which just makes things more complicated. Lately, I have been cycling so quickly- one day crying all day and the next day jumping out of my skin. I am having my thyroid checked tomorrow morning, but in the meantime I am considering lithium.
I have never tried it and am concerned about the side effects of this drug. Could people on the drug please respond as to how they tolerate lithium? I know it's considered the gold standard in treating bipolar but I'm still afraid to try it. Any insight would be much appreciated.
Best wishes,
Heather
Posted by Ritch on April 8, 2002, at 10:23:30
In reply to LITHIUM questions, posted by HMK on April 8, 2002, at 9:04:22
> I've been using Effexor XR, Neurontin, and Geodon for the past year or so in an attempt to regulate my bipolar II. I also have an underactive thyroid which just makes things more complicated. Lately, I have been cycling so quickly- one day crying all day and the next day jumping out of my skin. I am having my thyroid checked tomorrow morning, but in the meantime I am considering lithium.
>
> I have never tried it and am concerned about the side effects of this drug. Could people on the drug please respond as to how they tolerate lithium? I know it's considered the gold standard in treating bipolar but I'm still afraid to try it. Any insight would be much appreciated.
>
> Best wishes,
> Heather
Hi Heather,You might get a better response from Depakote-given that you cycle rapidly. Also, lithium tends to worsen hypothyroidism. You might also look at your dosages of Geodon and esp. Effexor-they have both been reported to cause agitation/hypomania in some folks. However, it may be entirely possible that all you need is a little thyroid augmentation to settle down the cycling. But, lithium has some good points to it. It often helps with depression much better than Depakote (in some-and in my personal exp.), it can settle down dysphoric reactions to antidepressants, you can get away with taking it all at bedtime, and your liver isn't involved with getting rid of it. You might want to get your thyroid "straighened out" first before you add-on or change anything else-just to possibly spare you any unnecessary side effects from lithium, etc.
Posted by Chloe on April 8, 2002, at 20:49:48
In reply to LITHIUM questions, posted by HMK on April 8, 2002, at 9:04:22
>I know it's considered the gold standard in treating bipolar
Heather,
In my personal opinion and from my pdoc, Lithium is the gold standard for BP 1. Where the person has distinct and full blown mania episodes and deep depressions that last a number of weeks or more. I think lithium is less of a first line treatment in BP2 where the person might cycle from hypomania to depressed very rapidly and erractically. However, in BP 2, the dosages and blood levels of lithium tend to be lower, hence more tolerable.I would have to say the "gold standard" for rapid cylcing is Depakote, as Mitch mentioned. I had many months of rapid cycling on and off of lithium. It wasn't until a low dose of Depakote was added that things have leveled off, thank heavens!
If you are having thyroid problems, I am suprised that Li would be a drug of choice for you. As lithium is quite notorious for *causing* hypothyroidism over prolonged use.
I am sorry you are having a rough time. Perhaps getting the thyroid under control first is the best course of action. Though I think adding another mood stabilizer might help alot. I take low doses of three, lithium, depakote and neurontin.
Lastly, Geodon caused hypomania for me when I gave it a two week trial. I wonder if that and the effexor are too activating?
Sorry for the discombobulated post. I am rushing off. Where did that hour go we lost last Sat. nite?
Take care
Chloe
Posted by wbill on April 9, 2002, at 17:16:04
In reply to LITHIUM questions, posted by HMK on April 8, 2002, at 9:04:22
> I've been using Effexor XR, Neurontin, and Geodon for the past year or so in an attempt to regulate my bipolar II. I also have an underactive thyroid which just makes things more complicated. Lately, I have been cycling so quickly- one day crying all day and the next day jumping out of my skin. I am having my thyroid checked tomorrow morning, but in the meantime I am considering lithium.
>
> I have never tried it and am concerned about the side effects of this drug. Could people on the drug please respond as to how they tolerate lithium? I know it's considered the gold standard in treating bipolar but I'm still afraid to try it. Any insight would be much appreciated.
>
> Best wishes,
> HeatherHeather
I have been on lithobid for a couple of years. My
hands shook alot when I first went on it. I also
had thyroid problems and my pdoc put me on synthoid and cytomel. The tremmers subsided quit a bit, but are still their. That was the only side effect I had.Bill
Posted by sweet_slider on April 12, 2002, at 23:35:12
In reply to Re: LITHIUM questions, posted by wbill on April 9, 2002, at 17:16:04
I have been on Effexor XR for almost a year and on Lithium for about 3 months, I take both synthroid and cytomel for my hypothyroidism. I have noticed a significant weight gain after adding the Li but after expressing this to my doctor she told me that it was because I wasn't exercising enough which is more than likely true. I guess everyone is different but that may be something you will have to deal with as for myself, the positive effects of the Li outweigh the negatives of weight gain. Hope this helps,
Sweet Slider
Posted by kid47 on April 15, 2002, at 12:19:58
In reply to LITHIUM questions, posted by HMK on April 8, 2002, at 9:04:22
Hi. I'm not selling this stuff. I received an E-mail from their site. It's supposedly Lithium in its mineral form with something called Orotate added to perpetuate some majic effect. Claims to relieve depression, cycling migraines. No blood tests necessary. Non-toxic. Too good to be true? It's $30 for a month supply. Anybody know anything about it? Thanx
kid
Posted by Ritch on April 15, 2002, at 12:54:46
In reply to Serenity-All natural Lithium?, posted by kid47 on April 15, 2002, at 12:19:58
> Hi. I'm not selling this stuff. I received an E-mail from their site. It's supposedly Lithium in its mineral form with something called Orotate added to perpetuate some majic effect. Claims to relieve depression, cycling migraines. No blood tests necessary. Non-toxic. Too good to be true? It's $30 for a month supply. Anybody know anything about it? Thanx
> kid
I would be very wary of that sort of stuff. Lithium is pretty much lithium-period. $30 for a month's supply? Lithium carbonate is about as simple a compound as they come. I think for $30 you can get a six month's supply at the drugstore with a script. I wonder if that is the same "natural" lithium my brother-in-law's dad took back in the 70's? I believe there was actually less than 30mg equivalent of lithium carbonate in every tablet. He never took enough of it for him to do any good until he saw a psychiatrist for the first time and then his bipolar-I was effectively treated for the first time at age 50.Mitch
Posted by jazzdog on April 16, 2002, at 11:31:53
In reply to Re: Serenity-All natural Lithium? » kid47, posted by Ritch on April 15, 2002, at 12:54:46
Lithium in its natural form breaks down in a matter of hours and can't be stored or transported. The lithium used for medicinal purposed is synthesized. I think if natural lithium could be marketed, the vitamin companies would be all over it. I stayed at a spa once where lithium was present in the water supply, and everybody was VERY mellow.
- jane
Posted by JohnX2 on April 16, 2002, at 11:58:01
In reply to Re: Serenity-All natural Lithium?, posted by jazzdog on April 16, 2002, at 11:31:53
> Lithium in its natural form breaks down in a matter of hours and can't be stored or transported. The lithium used for medicinal purposed is synthesized. I think if natural lithium could be marketed, the vitamin companies would be all over it. I stayed at a spa once where lithium was present in the water supply, and everybody was VERY mellow.
>
> - janeIt (Li) was in 7-up! I believe they took it out after they discovered the psychoactive properties.
John
Posted by Ritch on April 16, 2002, at 12:39:51
In reply to Re: Serenity-All natural Lithium?, posted by jazzdog on April 16, 2002, at 11:31:53
> Lithium in its natural form breaks down in a matter of hours and can't be stored or transported. The lithium used for medicinal purposed is synthesized. I think if natural lithium could be marketed, the vitamin companies would be all over it. I stayed at a spa once where lithium was present in the water supply, and everybody was VERY mellow.
>
> - jane
I kind of think that everyone is forgetting that lithium is a toxic metallic element. In its *elemental* form I think it will spontaneously combust when exposed to oxygen, that is why it must be combined with other atoms (carbonate ion, i.e.) for it to be water soluble (and stable). Chemistry freaks-help please! :-)Mitch
Posted by cmcdougall on April 19, 2002, at 10:46:50
In reply to Re: Serenity-All natural Lithium? » jazzdog, posted by Ritch on April 16, 2002, at 12:39:51
I know that litium is on the periodic chart but I don't think it is toxic except in high doses. (chem majors - help)
Lepidolite has been mined all over the world for years because it is the natural source for lithium salts. I think litium salts are used in several manufacturing and/or smelting processes, as well as for medicinal purposes. Mineral springs that flow through lepidolite formations are also used as a source of lithium salts. I suppose because the salts are water soluble. (chemies?)
Metaphysical proponents believe that wearing a crystal of lepidolite will calm you down. New age shops sell it for that purpose, and rock shops sell it because its pretty. The rocks don't combust on exposure to air, but I don't know about the pure elemental salts.
I bought a small piece of it and suck on it when I'm stressed out. I figure it can't hurt and just might help. Can't say that I've noticed any effects tho. Pathetic how some of us will try anything, huh? :-)
It would be difficult if not impossible to determine how much lithium is contained in a particular chunk of lepidolite or even if I'm absorbing any by sucking on it.
What are the noticable and/or immediate effects when taking litium tablets? If I know, I would pay more attention...
Love and luck to all,
Carly> I kind of think that everyone is forgetting that lithium is a toxic metallic element. In its *elemental* form I think it will spontaneously combust when exposed to oxygen, that is why it must be combined with other atoms (carbonate ion, i.e.) for it to be water soluble (and stable). Chemistry freaks-help please! :-)
>
> Mitch
Posted by Ritch on April 19, 2002, at 13:24:04
In reply to lepidolite - natural form of lithium salts, posted by cmcdougall on April 19, 2002, at 10:46:50
> I know that litium is on the periodic chart but I don't think it is toxic except in high doses. (chem majors - help)
>
> Lepidolite has been mined all over the world for years because it is the natural source for lithium salts. I think litium salts are used in several manufacturing and/or smelting processes, as well as for medicinal purposes. Mineral springs that flow through lepidolite formations are also used as a source of lithium salts. I suppose because the salts are water soluble. (chemies?)
>
> Metaphysical proponents believe that wearing a crystal of lepidolite will calm you down. New age shops sell it for that purpose, and rock shops sell it because its pretty. The rocks don't combust on exposure to air, but I don't know about the pure elemental salts.
>
> I bought a small piece of it and suck on it when I'm stressed out. I figure it can't hurt and just might help. Can't say that I've noticed any effects tho. Pathetic how some of us will try anything, huh? :-)
>
> It would be difficult if not impossible to determine how much lithium is contained in a particular chunk of lepidolite or even if I'm absorbing any by sucking on it.
>
> What are the noticable and/or immediate effects when taking litium tablets? If I know, I would pay more attention...
>
>
> Love and luck to all,
> Carly
Hi Carly,Basically, you will notice thirst and a need to drink water and some frequent urination. You might feel a little dazed. I was pretty wired up once and took 900mg all at once at bedtime and woke up feeling like I had been slapped by a Masonic Bible :-) There definitely is evidence that it and other mood stabilizers have a neuroprotective effect. I just have a tiny quibble about the idea of "natural" versus "pharmaceutical" lithium. I believe that once whatever lithium you ingest gets into your stomach the lithium ions (Li2-) disassociate from whatever other ions they are bound to and begin entering your bloodstream. I just think you might as well just get a script for some generic lithium carbonate, take a quarter tab every day (like a baby aspirin!) and you are only out a few quarters (it is incredibly cheap). One thing that is neat about it-you can crumble a tab up and sprinkle it in a candle flame and it turns red-looks really pretty ;)
Mitch
Posted by Elizabeth on April 19, 2002, at 23:09:43
In reply to Re: Serenity-All natural Lithium? » jazzdog, posted by Ritch on April 16, 2002, at 12:39:51
In some localities, the water has small amounts of lithium dissolved in it. Not enough to have significant clinical effects, of course (unless you drank, like, a river).
In therapeutic doses, lithium is toxic enough and has a narrow enough therapeutic window that I really doubt that the FDA would permit it to be marketed over the counter as a "food supplement" (they probably haven't noticed that this is going on, that's my guess). As always, natural doesn't = safe. (Actually, I'm not convinced that "natural" means anything in these ads for so-called "supplements.")
These people are claiming that their product contains the salt lithium orotate -- orotate is just an ion. (I think orotic acid is one of the B vitamins.) It is true that some lithium salts are more toxic than others -- for example, lithium chloride is no longer used because it's too toxic. The salts that are used clinically in the USA are carbonate and citrate. The orotate is used in Germany and probably some other places.
I'm not sure if the orotate is any less toxic than other salts, although I've heard some claims that it has fewer or milder side effects. It does result in higher lithium levels than an equal dose of lithium carbonate, so the therapeutic dose range is lower. That doesn't necessarily mean there are fewer side effects, though.
On another note -- Jane, what do you mean, exactly, when you say that:
> Lithium in its natural form breaks down in a matter of hours
?
-elizabeth
Posted by Emme on April 21, 2002, at 9:18:02
In reply to lepidolite - natural form of lithium salts, posted by cmcdougall on April 19, 2002, at 10:46:50
Lepidolite isn't a salt at all. It's a Li-bearing silicate mineral - the Li ion is covalently bonded within the structure of the mineral. Unlike a salt, it's not soluble. It's a form of mica actually, if any of you are rockhounds. It's a very pretty purplish color - I have a nice hunk of it sitting on my shelf. :) You're not gonna get a whole lot of Li from sucking on it.
It is the commonest source of lithium. I'm not up on the specifics of mining and purifying techniques, but the Li would have to be extracted from the lepidolite via some sort of digestion procedure and *then* be used to form a salt for commercial sales.
(Mineral springs flowing through formations with lepidolite would have elevated temperatures needed to help gradually leach out some of the Li from the mineral (not dissolve the whole mineral itself)).
cheers,
Emme> I know that litium is on the periodic chart but I don't think it is toxic except in high doses. (chem majors - help)
>
> Lepidolite has been mined all over the world for years because it is the natural source for lithium salts. I think litium salts are used in several manufacturing and/or smelting processes, as well as for medicinal purposes. Mineral springs that flow through lepidolite formations are also used as a source of lithium salts. I suppose because the salts are water soluble. (chemies?)
>
> Metaphysical proponents believe that wearing a crystal of lepidolite will calm you down. New age shops sell it for that purpose, and rock shops sell it because its pretty. The rocks don't combust on exposure to air, but I don't know about the pure elemental salts.
>
> I bought a small piece of it and suck on it when I'm stressed out. I figure it can't hurt and just might help. Can't say that I've noticed any effects tho. Pathetic how some of us will try anything, huh? :-)
>
> It would be difficult if not impossible to determine how much lithium is contained in a particular chunk of lepidolite or even if I'm absorbing any by sucking on it.
>
> What are the noticable and/or immediate effects when taking litium tablets? If I know, I would pay more attention...
>
>
> Love and luck to all,
> Carly
>
> > I kind of think that everyone is forgetting that lithium is a toxic metallic element. In its *elemental* form I think it will spontaneously combust when exposed to oxygen, that is why it must be combined with other atoms (carbonate ion, i.e.) for it to be water soluble (and stable). Chemistry freaks-help please! :-)
> >
> > Mitch
Posted by Ritch on April 21, 2002, at 12:18:34
In reply to Re: lepidolite 101, posted by Emme on April 21, 2002, at 9:18:02
Posted by Emme on April 21, 2002, at 19:22:33
In reply to Re: lepidolite 101, posted by Emme on April 21, 2002, at 9:18:02
Hi All,
At the risk of boring you to tears, I looked up some more info on Li sources. Another hard lithium-bearing silicate mineral called spodumene has also been mined as a commercial ore.
Also, precipitation of Li carbonate from brines has become a commercially viable option in some places. (see below). Brines are hydrothermal waters that have leached a lot of dissolved solids from the rocks through which they pass. If you evaporate the water, you precipitate out salts. Of course any lithium-containing salts precipitated this way would contain lots of other stuff and need refining. Below I've stuck in some excerpts I pulled off the web. I guess mood-disordered people aren't considered a major end-user of Li products. ;)
Sorry if it's a bit too much detail - it's a bit off-subject medication-wise. I guess I got a little carried away. Okay, I'll shut up for the moment.
Emme
From : http://www.ghedwards.com/im.htm
On October 29, 1996, Sociedad Minera Salar de Atacama S.A., or MINSAL successfully precipitated lithium carbonate from brine extracted from its Salar de Atacama operation in northern Chile. From plant groundbreaking in February to the first commercial shipments in December, the lithium project was two months ahead of schedule and matched the target budget of $51m. The following article discusses the metamorphosis of the lithium market, the MINSAL project as well as the company itself, and the impact of these developments on the world lithium market.
Also, from http://www.amm.com/ref/lithium.HTM
LITHIUM
World mine output: 15,000 tonnes
U.S. consumption: 2,800 tonnes
U.S. exports: 700 tonnes
Price: $4.47/kg (Lithium carbonate)In descending order of production, the world's largest lithium chemical producers in 1999 were Chile, China, the United States, Russia, and Argentina. Australia and Canada were major producers of lithium ore concentrates.
In terms of use, the United States remained the leading consumer of lithium minerals and compounds. It also was the leading producer of value-added lithium materials....In 1999, the only active lithium carbonate plant in the United States was at a brine operation in Nevada. Two other mines in North Carolina were closed in 1986 and 1998. Subsurface brines have become the primary raw material for lithium carbonates due to lower production costs than those for hard-rock ores (spodumene and lepidolite).... Ore concentrates, rather than lithium carbonate and compound feedstock, accounted for the majority of world mined lithium minerals consumption....World oversupply has kept lithium carbonate prices depressed for the past three years, according to the USGS.
End-uses for lithium compounds are in ceramics, glass and primary aluminum production..... Other major end-uses are in the manufacture of lubricants and greases and in the production of synthetic rubber.....Lithium carbonate, rather than lithium metal, has been the focus of research recently for use in batteries for electric vehicles.
Posted by Ritch on April 21, 2002, at 22:01:29
In reply to And then some more about Li sources, posted by Emme on April 21, 2002, at 19:22:33
Thanks Emme once again! I totally freaked when I checked this stuff out. I had seen documentaries about the Northern Chilean desert and told several folks (including myself) that if I was going to vacation outside the U.S., a "trip" to Santiago, Chile working northwards to Bolivia would be my "Ultimate Vacation"! This just confirms my original intuitions. Golly, you have just "chosen" my world vacation experience, thank you so very much. Where are you going? Oh, to check out the Chilean lithium mining industry. Batteries for electric cars? Count me in.
Mitch
Posted by Emme on April 22, 2002, at 7:41:16
In reply to Northern Chile: Mystical and Practical! » Emme, posted by Ritch on April 21, 2002, at 22:01:29
I've been thinking about interesting vacation spots too. Chile is starting to sound really good. If I get the entreprenurial urge, I'll set up a pumping operation and get me some of those briny waters :)
> Thanks Emme once again! I totally freaked when I checked this stuff out. I had seen documentaries about the Northern Chilean desert and told several folks (including myself) that if I was going to vacation outside the U.S., a "trip" to Santiago, Chile working northwards to Bolivia would be my "Ultimate Vacation"! This just confirms my original intuitions. Golly, you have just "chosen" my world vacation experience, thank you so very much. Where are you going? Oh, to check out the Chilean lithium mining industry. Batteries for electric cars? Count me in.
>
>
>
> Mitch
Posted by cmcdougall on April 23, 2002, at 12:32:47
In reply to Re: Northern Chile: Mystical and Practical! » Ritch, posted by Emme on April 22, 2002, at 7:41:16
Posted by leon on November 13, 2003, at 13:24:09
In reply to Serenity-All natural Lithium?, posted by kid47 on April 15, 2002, at 12:19:58
I have read everyone's opinion of this Serenity, but I have yet found a thread on anyone who has actually taken it and it results. I suffer from a mild depression and looking for something to combat it. I am very wary of the prozac, wellburtin and the others because of the side effects, Seems like the side effects make it worse. How anyone tried Serenity, If so what did you think?
Leon
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 15, 2003, at 14:45:32
In reply to Serenity-All natural Lithium?, posted by leon on November 13, 2003, at 13:24:09
> I have read everyone's opinion of this Serenity...
I'd like follow-ups regarding Serenity to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/280031.html
Thanks,
Bob
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