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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 5:45:20
So I'm taking 150 mg Wellbutrin 2 x day, and Ritalin 5mg am and 10 mg afternoon (and most of the time take 5mg evening just to get to 8:00pm without falling asleep). I'm asking my pdoc for something else the next time I need to refill, and would like your opinions on either Dexadrine or Adderall.
The WB has been effective for the depression (after 9 weeks!) I thought, but have noticed that the tears, the feeling of crying, is "right there" still if I have to talk to anyone about personal issues that may be bothering me. I know that sounds stupid... but there you have it. I'm also feeling just as withdrawn and anti-social as before I started talking the meds, and negative thoughts still race through my mind until the Ritalin takes effect on my concentration (which I have to dose at 3.5 hour intervals).
And I still have no energy.
But in the past when I've taken Prozac for depression (the Ritalin is very new for me), I was always emotionally "flat-lined" after about 3 weeks. There was NO WAY I would cry about anything - even if I wanted to. But I couldn't really have any other emotion either. Much like a zombie. Is that the best effect you're looking for with an AD?
Through the years I've drank coffee like crazy and smoked cigarettes. Probably self-medicating. My understanding of seratonin and dopamine is very limited, but I'm wondering if I'm having an almost better effect with meds this time because of their effect on dopamine levels? Prozac affects seratonin I think. So if I'm all about the dompamine, then maybe I've burned most of my receptors - or whatever - out with the coffee and cigarettes?
I think Adderall and Dexadrine also affect dopamine levels, right? That's why Dexadrine can be addicting? But I wonder if either one of these meds would be superior to Ritalin in my situation for the ADD and for a longer lasting effect -- and the sleepiness too, which would also perhaps be effective on the depression and anti-social tendancies as a sidenote?
I'm sorry this is so long and rambling! Hope I made sense. Any opinions appreciated.
Posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 14:07:03
In reply to Depression, ADD, sleepiness and dopamine , posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 5:45:20
might be better for me - the Dexadrine or Adderall?
Posted by michael on March 22, 2002, at 16:59:59
In reply to I forgot to mention my main question: WHICH one, posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 14:07:03
> might be better for me - the Dexadrine or Adderall?
My personal experience was that addrall made me feel "uncomfortable" or "icky" (how's that for objective "clinical" terminology/feedback...) and more withdrawn -- just wanted to be left alone, didn't want to deal w/or interact w/anyone until it wore off.
Ritalin & Dex made me feel more focused, more normal in respect to energy levels and actually doing anything - even just paying bills, cleaning up, laundry, etc., which just didn't get done w/o waiting until they HAD to be done.
I'd recommend trying the dex. I find that it last a little longer than ritalin (maybe an hour) and that it has slightly (not a lot, but something) more of an "energy" component than ritalin does. Of course, others might tell you they've had the opposite experience...YMMV. Good luck.
Posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 17:23:25
In reply to Re: I forgot to mention my main question: WHICH one, posted by michael on March 22, 2002, at 16:59:59
I appreciate you sharing your experiences. When you say that Dexedrine lasts about an hour longer than Ritalin, I wonder if you're talking about Dexedrine or the Dexedrine SR? The Ritalin is only lasting me maybe 2.5 - 3 hours! I'm starting to dread when it's wearing off.
And were your dosages with Ritalin / Dexedrine similar in terms of MGs?
Thanks! =) Charlotte
Posted by Peter on March 22, 2002, at 18:04:06
In reply to Depression, ADD, sleepiness and dopamine , posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 5:45:20
Hi Charlotte:
Have you ever considered trying Concerta, since you're already used to the ritalin effects? It's a good extended-release form of ritalin. One pill lasts up to 10-12 hours and I find that it releases it pretty steadily throughout the day. But stimulants have different effects on different people. While I liked the Concerta, I personally prefer adderall XR, which I'm taking now. You can take one pill per day and it releases two doses of adderall 4-6 hours apart. It has alot less of a depressive/crash feeling for me. Dexedrine Spansules is another sustained release preparation, and I've heard from some people that it's even smoother than adderall, but I believe it doesn't last as long as Concerta or adderall XR. Just give each a trial until you find which works best for you. Best of luck,
Peter
Posted by fachad on March 22, 2002, at 19:28:17
In reply to Depression, ADD, sleepiness and dopamine , posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 5:45:20
Each person's experience with these meds is different.
I found that for me
- Ritalin has the best effect on mood, and a good effect on energy.
- Dex has the best effect on energy, and a good effect on mood.
- Adderall gave me dry mouth, which I cannot stand.
If you take Ritalin, you should consider Concerta or Metadate which will save you from the up / down misery of short acting ritalin
> So I'm taking 150 mg Wellbutrin 2 x day, and Ritalin 5mg am and 10 mg afternoon (and most of the time take 5mg evening just to get to 8:00pm without falling asleep). I'm asking my pdoc for something else the next time I need to refill, and would like your opinions on either Dexadrine or Adderall.
>
> The WB has been effective for the depression (after 9 weeks!) I thought, but have noticed that the tears, the feeling of crying, is "right there" still if I have to talk to anyone about personal issues that may be bothering me. I know that sounds stupid... but there you have it. I'm also feeling just as withdrawn and anti-social as before I started talking the meds, and negative thoughts still race through my mind until the Ritalin takes effect on my concentration (which I have to dose at 3.5 hour intervals).
>
> And I still have no energy.
>
> But in the past when I've taken Prozac for depression (the Ritalin is very new for me), I was always emotionally "flat-lined" after about 3 weeks. There was NO WAY I would cry about anything - even if I wanted to. But I couldn't really have any other emotion either. Much like a zombie. Is that the best effect you're looking for with an AD?
>
> Through the years I've drank coffee like crazy and smoked cigarettes. Probably self-medicating. My understanding of seratonin and dopamine is very limited, but I'm wondering if I'm having an almost better effect with meds this time because of their effect on dopamine levels? Prozac affects seratonin I think. So if I'm all about the dompamine, then maybe I've burned most of my receptors - or whatever - out with the coffee and cigarettes?
>
> I think Adderall and Dexadrine also affect dopamine levels, right? That's why Dexadrine can be addicting? But I wonder if either one of these meds would be superior to Ritalin in my situation for the ADD and for a longer lasting effect -- and the sleepiness too, which would also perhaps be effective on the depression and anti-social tendancies as a sidenote?
>
> I'm sorry this is so long and rambling! Hope I made sense. Any opinions appreciated.
Posted by Jerrympls on March 22, 2002, at 23:58:18
In reply to Thanks! one more quesiton about dexedrine » michael, posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 17:23:25
I've been on Ritalin, Dexedrine, Cylert and Adderall - all for depression. Ritalin for me has a much different feel about it than Dexedrine and Adderall - Cylert was like taking a sugar pill - Anyway, Ritalin helped me a lot - but I was on it before they came out with the longer preparations (Metadate, Concerta) and the good effeects would last 2 hours then I'd crash bad. Dexedrine spansules work great for me - much smoother than Adderall and much less intense. I have also taken just plain Dexedrine and still good--but wears off too quickly and have to keep dosing 4-5 times a day.
So, my two cents....hope this helps.....
Jerry
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 0:28:01
In reply to Depression, ADD, sleepiness and dopamine , posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 5:45:20
I found that for my ADD & for concentrating that Ritalin helped me 'focus' the most & made much less likely to get sidetracked. My GPA went from a 2.2 to a 3.0. I think I read it also increases blood flow to the temporal lobes of the brain. But socially, it made me shy & inhibited & not very social & somewhat paranoid about how I looked & acted in front of others (studies w/ rats on ritalin had the same outcome).
With Adderall & Dexedrine I hardly got much studying done, I would go talk to friends down the hall instead, & felt giddy, happy, confident, high-self esteem- both seem to be great for mood. Most people seem to be able to study well on either though. Weight loss & appetite decrease were a major downer for me since i'm already fairly skinny. I lost 20 pounds (180 lbs down to 160 lbs but i'm 6'1") on two seperate occasions on both Ritalin & Dexedrine therapy, but gained it back when I stopped taking them.
All these stimulants make food taste gross, & the act of eating seems boring & monotonous- the problem is they are absorbed & work much better on an empty stomach (especially Ritalin) so I ended up hardly ever eating & looking thin/emasciated.
But they say that most ADDers respond to one (Ritalin) or the other (Adderall/Dexedrine) but not both.
Posted by Charlotte on March 23, 2002, at 7:38:20
In reply to Re: Depression, ADD, sleepiness and dopamine , posted by Peter on March 22, 2002, at 18:04:06
Hi, Peter -
Yes I thought about Concerta also. Esp since it lasts so long - not crashing would be great. Because I was getting some positive benefit from Ritalin, but not a lot, I thought I"d cross over & try a different stimulant.
Posted by Charlotte on March 23, 2002, at 7:59:14
In reply to Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 0:28:01
Hi, 3BE -
I'm interested in the way that Adderall and Dexedrine helped your mood. Was there any significant difference between the two for you in that or other ways? Ritalin as helped my concentration / focus somewhat - in a very short window of time - but I am absolutely anti-social right now, and I wasn't that outgoing in the first place.
I'm assuming that your energy level was good with all three?
And what if I feel dizzy sometimes when I try to increase the Ritalin by as small a dose as 5mg - does that mean I shouldn't be taking stimulants at all? Maybe I really don't have ADD? In your experience, have you ever felt dizzy with the stimulants?
Charlotte
===============================> I found that for my ADD & for concentrating that Ritalin helped me 'focus' the most & made much less likely to get sidetracked. My GPA went from a 2.2 to a 3.0. I think I read it also increases blood flow to the temporal lobes of the brain. But socially, it made me shy & inhibited & not very social & somewhat paranoid about how I looked & acted in front of others (studies w/ rats on ritalin had the same outcome).
>
> With Adderall & Dexedrine I hardly got much studying done, I would go talk to friends down the hall instead, & felt giddy, happy, confident, high-self esteem- both seem to be great for mood. Most people seem to be able to study well on either though. Weight loss & appetite decrease were a major downer for me since i'm already fairly skinny. I lost 20 pounds (180 lbs down to 160 lbs but i'm 6'1") on two seperate occasions on both Ritalin & Dexedrine therapy, but gained it back when I stopped taking them.
>
> All these stimulants make food taste gross, & the act of eating seems boring & monotonous- the problem is they are absorbed & work much better on an empty stomach (especially Ritalin) so I ended up hardly ever eating & looking thin/emasciated.
>
> But they say that most ADDers respond to one (Ritalin) or the other (Adderall/Dexedrine) but not both.
Posted by Charlotte on March 23, 2002, at 8:02:49
In reply to Re: Thanks! one more quesiton about dexedrine, posted by Jerrympls on March 22, 2002, at 23:58:18
Jerrympls,
I've heard what you're saying about Dexadrine several times - it's smoother, the spansules last well, not a significant crash.
I'm leaning towards asking for the dex.
Posted by BLPBart on March 23, 2002, at 13:44:44
In reply to Re: I forgot to mention my main question: WHICH one, posted by michael on March 22, 2002, at 16:59:59
> > might be better for me - the Dexadrine or Adderall?
>
> My personal experience was that addrall made me feel "uncomfortable" or "icky" (how's that for objective "clinical" terminology/feedback...) and more withdrawn -- just wanted to be left alone, didn't want to deal w/or interact w/anyone until it wore off.
>> Ritalin & Dex made me feel more focused, more normal in respect to energy levels and actually doing anything - even just paying bills, cleaning up, laundry, etc., which just didn't get done w/o waiting until they HAD to be done.
>
> I'd recommend trying the dex. I find that it last a little longer than ritalin (maybe an hour) and that it has slightly (not a lot, but something) more of an "energy" component than ritalin does. Of course, others might tell you they've had the opposite experience...YMMV. Good luck.I just had to comment because you sound so much like me. I just recently started dexedrine SR for potential ADD (I say potential because my understanding is there is really no test to verify it, it's kind of subjective). Anyway, I have definitely found that now I can get up and do things that I need to do. Usually, I'm like you in that everything gets done at the least minute only when it has to. Bills were always late, projects always being done the night before they're due and would often find myself just wandering around my house, looking at all the things I wanted or should have been doing, but instead just not being motivated to start any of them. It drove me crazy, I would literally wander from room to room and just kind of putter around.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 24, 2002, at 0:22:13
In reply to 3BE! Couple more questions for you » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Charlotte on March 23, 2002, at 7:59:14
I never had dizziness from Ritalin. I did end up getting (psychologically) addicted to it, could not study without it and taking ridiculous amounts per day (mostly intranasally) until my supply would run out. I think during finals weeks I went through 180 20 mg pills in about 2 weeks. The side effects from those (extreme) doses were being able to study/stay awake for 5 days at a time with no sleep, cocaine like euphoria, loss of appetite, rapid weight loss, paranoia, red face, but I never had any dizziness. When I first started taking Ritalin, I took 40 mg once (orally) before class, was pretty jumpy (like too much caffeine) & ending up getting lost in one of the buildings on campus & had no idea where I was or how to get back home.
All three increase your energy level about the same in equivalent doses, they just have different lengths of duration. Adderall & Dexedrine both make you very talkative/social & seem to have social disinhibiton effects- you are no longer afraid to ask questions in class, or flirt, & confidence level & self-esteem go way up (until the drug crashes- then you feel bad, similar to the ritalin crash but not as bad because it is more gradual- Adderall XR or Dexedrine Spansules might solve this crash problem). I thought Adderall was better for studying (especially since it lasts longer- 6 hours instead of 4.5) but made me more anxious around people.I would avoid caffeine when taking any of these because the combo will make you jumpy, more distracted & nervous (Although for some reason Red Bull tastes great with Ritalin). I thought the greatest thing was that my attendance was much improved after starting stimulant therapy. All you have to do is set your alarm for one hour before you usually get up, have your ADD med & glass of water near your bed, quickly take the pill & go right back to sleep & soon you will awake refreshed even on 4 hours sleep- the pleasant tingle on the back of your neck/head as you are waking up is one of the best parts of any of these 3 medicines.
Posted by nightlight on March 24, 2002, at 19:32:23
In reply to I forgot to mention my main question: WHICH one, posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 14:07:03
> might be better for me - the Dexadrine or Adderall?
Charlotte,
Everybody's different, and one person's gift from heaven is another person's hell.
I despise Rit (methylphenyldate), which I tried in 5mg. imm. release, titrating from 10 to 60 mgs. a day.The dose (anywhere from 5-40) mgs per dosing always did the same thing-made me irritable and anxious for about 45 minutes, w/no greater thought clarity, and then I wd. crash HARD(in less than an HOUR) and wd. have to take a long nap to replenish my (always lagging)energy level and quell my desirento scream at a/t or anybody. I have never tried the long-acting form, and don't really care to.My latest psych started me on Adderall 5 mgs twice a day, over the course or many weeks, months we have played with dosage. I was given as much as 120 mgs. daily, still immediate release. But, Add. doesn't 'feel' like IR, due to its subtle onset. It was OK, a big improvement over lying on the sofa for 3 months in a severe, non-functional, anhedonic, joyless, volitionless, unbathed heap. (I was also in a pain flare, that needed to be attended to, but it took months for me to see my g.p. and get him to change my pain meds). Once pain was waning, I serendipitously found this new shrink and a terrific psychologist (actually, the therapist came first & he intro'd me to the p-doc.) They are both smart, open, and they LISTEN to me-amazing!
So, back to subject, I tried IR generic dexedrine (not dextrostat, they were out), and it was not as successful as the Adderall. (I had begun to feelsleepy and scattered again). I had been taking Zoloft-it did nothing-no AD ever has for me, unless I really needed a good dose of hyper- or hypo-somnolence. None ever significantly helped w/alertness or motivation or depression. Remeron DID help relieve anxiety really well, but I was constantly grazing-food was my 'mission'.
Immediate release dex was practically worthless.
Switched back to Adderall, began Effexor 37.5, as a last AD resort. I tried it before, but it made me so sleepy, I could't function. With a stimulent on board, we decided to try again.It does make me sleepier with each dose increase, but that wanes in a couple wks. and I do believe it has lifted my mood at least a little. After a month, I felt I was still feeling way under-stimulated and groggy.Last appt. with p-doc, I asked if we cd. shop around with what was available, he said sure (I hardly believe this p-doc exists!) and I am now on dex spansules, 20 mgs. on arising and 10-20 anywhere from 1 to 4 p.m.( Amphetamines do not make me 'wired', I can easily fall asleep shortly after taking a dose, but I don't want to and I don't feel I must crawl back into bed, which has been my genral tendency I've had tobattle with for years). And, I will try to increase Effexor from 187.5 to 225 sometime next week.
SO FAR (drumroll...) I like the dex spansules best. For me, the smoothest and the most energizing and motivating of what I've sampled so far.
I have suffered from excessive daytime sleepiness, undiagnosed ADD, and anxiety for more than 30 years, and, believe me, it can definitely take one off on very sad life courses: self-medication, isolation, personal digust, depression and the disintegration of 'self'.
Until the sleepiness from each increase in my Effexor diminishes, I won't know for sure, if I am finally on the right track. But, I do feel I'm on the 'upswing'.
Please excuse my long-windedness. Please post your progress.
Good luck!
nightlight
Posted by Zo on March 25, 2002, at 17:07:47
In reply to I forgot to mention my main question: WHICH one, posted by Charlotte on March 22, 2002, at 14:07:03
The only intelligent way to choose is to try all three (good advice I got from a book). . Adderall, Dex and I suppose (yuck) even Ritalin* They work so differently for each person. My girlfriend does well on 30mg Adderall. 5mg is too much for me--I take 10mg Dexedrine instead. Of course it matters what else you are taking. The nice thing about the pstims is, you can fiddle with your dose right that day. . .
*you can see my prejudice! didn't have a good Ritalin experience. . .tho it was not XR, then.
Good luck,
Zo
Posted by jay on March 26, 2002, at 9:37:55
In reply to Re: I forgot to mention my main question: WHICH one » Charlotte, posted by nightlight on March 24, 2002, at 19:32:23
OK...am going to docs this afternoon. It seems Ritalin is not the best choice....and I have HORRID problems with Anxiety and Irritability from BPII. BUT, if say Dex or Adderall where to help, what would I be best at looking at going with? Would it be counter-productive to take with my Zyprexa? I also take 150mg's of Effexor XR.
Thanks..
Jay
Posted by Ritch on March 26, 2002, at 12:44:31
In reply to PStims and Anxiety/BPII?????? Help!!!, posted by jay on March 26, 2002, at 9:37:55
> OK...am going to docs this afternoon. It seems Ritalin is not the best choice....and I have HORRID problems with Anxiety and Irritability from BPII. BUT, if say Dex or Adderall where to help, what would I be best at looking at going with? Would it be counter-productive to take with my Zyprexa? I also take 150mg's of Effexor XR.
>
> Thanks..
>
> JayHi Jay,
I haven't tried Ritalin, but have tried nortriptyline, desipramine, Wellbutrin, Adderall, and Dexedrine for ADHD symptoms, and either dexedrine or nortriptyline were the easiest for me to tolerate as far as anxiety goes. I had the best focus with Adderall or desipramine however, but they made me way too uptight. The Wellbutrin also made me too anxious *and* angry. I had a good response with Risperdal+Adderall previously, but I *can't* tolerate AP's. So, if you can tolerate your Zyprexa this might be a good add-on. Watch out with adding a pstim to an AD. Just be careful. I got this synergistic !zang! from combining a little Celexa with a little dexedrine.
Mitch
Posted by Zo on March 26, 2002, at 16:48:31
In reply to PStims and Anxiety/BPII?????? Help!!!, posted by jay on March 26, 2002, at 9:37:55
I'd still be on Zyprexa if it weren't for the forty pounds I am finally losing. What a fab drug that was for me!
Zo
This is the end of the thread.
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