![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
Old School writes:
"3 Beer Effect, what you describe is indeed a pathetic and poor reason to see a psychiatrist. If you had no major mental illness to start, you have no reason seeing one. If you only wanted some klonopin or an SSRI to try for social anxiety disorder, you could have easily gotten that from a family doctor instead of a psychiatrist.It sounds as if your main problem is more personality problems (shyness) and social inhibition. Which are personality traits rather than mental illnesses. I would suggest just pulling off the psychiatry stuff totally, cut off all ties and save yourself. Find other ways to build up your self esteem and confidence.
Being that you now have been to a psychiatrist and taken psych meds, the military is out of the question. Unfortunately the military is very narrowminded towards accepting individuals who have taken SSRIs in the past. However, the military is an excellent place to gain self esteem and confidence. To develop your leadership abilities. A stint in the Marines, even the Marine reserves, would do wonders for your self confidence. Or a few years of Army ROTC could help you come out of your shyness and make you more self confident, more decisive, etc. However, once you have "psychiatrist" in your medical record, you can forget about the military. Its a shame though cause its probably exactly what you needed.
Another avenue to building up your self confidence is heavy weight lifting. Working out hard, particularly free weight type activities, can do wonders for the confidence of a man with low self esteem.
I hope if you have no significant mental illness like the rest of us you will cease your relationship with this psychiatrist. And find other, non pharmacological ways to increase confidence, meet girls, etc.
Psychiatrists are for people with serious and oftentimes severe psychiatric illnesses. It doesnt sound as if you have any of this".Old School-------------------
-------------------------------------------------3 Beer Effect response:
This type of misguided attitude is why Social Phobia has been neglected as a psychiatric illness for such a long time. Social Phobia is the most common anxiety disorder & the 3rd most common psychiatric disorder in the US. Social Phobia has a very high prevalence of comorbid disorders such as panic disorder, agoraphobia, and generalized anxiety disorder. Most disturbingly, lifetime alcoholism rates among social phobics ranges from 10-40% and most often social phobia preceded alcohol use- i.e.- alcohol abuse was used as a form of self-medication. Substance abuse hovers at around 15% for this disorder. (Source text: "From Social Anxiety to Social Phobia- Multiple Perspectives, Hoffman/DiBartolo.)"Millions of americans never come of out their shell, living a life a quiet desperation- When you have Social Phobia, you don't feel like you are being the "real" you- Social Phobia often results in passed up chances for work promotions, salary increases, dating, marriage, & friendships.
In my particular case I would binge drink in social situations, usually 2-3 times per week on the weekend. Unless I was drunk, I retreated into my shell & couldn't talk to anyone.
I quit drinking with the help of the SSRI Zoloft- otherwise I was headed down the road to a lifetime alcohol abuse problem (raising serotonin decreases alcohol intake in both human & animal models- I went to some AA meetings but the AA alcohol relapse rate hovers around 70-80%. I also found it hard to relate to people that drink by themselves or drink in the morning, I only drank to be sociable. I think many people in AA would greatly benefit from Revia (Naltrexatone) which takes away any pleasure derived from alcohol, and also an SSRI, but the sponsors in AA outright discourage the taking of medications, which I think is an misguided attitude especially since depression & anxiety disorders are very prevalent in alcoholics. - I've done much better on my own with the help of my psychiatrist & psychiatric meds)."Why didn't I just go to a family doctor for an SSRI or Klonopin?" I did, but eventually because of the severity of my problem combined with comorbid severe depression & possible ADD he properly referred me to a psychiatrist. Do you really think a family doctor is going to prescribe Klonopin, an arguably addictive & unfairly "demonized" benzodiazpine, in the high doses (2-4mg/day) required to treat Social Phobia?
Granted, Social Phobia is not as serious as say Bipolar I, but ironically the best medicines to treat Social Phobia are one of the most fatal class of drugs in the history of psychiatry- Nardil & Parnate (the MAOIs).I don't see why seeing a psychiatrist should be reserved "for people with serious & often severe psychiatric illnesses, as you put it,"- I have private health insurance, my seeing a psychiatrist isn't draining your resources/funds to see a psychiatrist- this is not welfare, I am not draining Medicaid funds.
Anyways, my weekend binge drinking of 10-14 drinks every Thursday & Saturday night at college, led to a depression that became severe, & also resulted in attentional problems- that amount of alcohol coursing through your brain causes brain atrophy, & premature brain aging/lesions & probably caused me a chemical imbalance. Also, I often missed classes on Friday & couldn't study on the weekend because of hangovers.
After trying Zoloft, I exhibited very manic, insomniac, & self destructive behavior and so am now diagnosed with severe depression w/ social phobia & possible bipolarity/ or ADD. I now take a rather effective combo of Lamictal 100 mg, 4 mg of Klonopin, and Provigil 200 mg & have not drank since September 11th, & I am now am about as social as I was after 2 beers, & my self-esteem, concentration, & confidence are way up (although not quite the same as the 3 beer level/effect). Some minor medication adjustments (increasing the Lamictal & swapping Provigil for Dexedrine), & I think I will be back to "normal".
Every persons' case is different, you shouldn't judge them or deem their disorder as "ridiculous" as you have, especially considering you don't know my case history, & my history of self-medicating with alcohol & illicit drugs and the consequences those choices inflicted upon myself (DUI, brain swelling/edema/concussion after fight when drunk, hit by a greyhound bus when drunk -thankfully at low speed so no damage except broken nose). In fact, your comment made me so angry that I thought about it all night long, & spent an hour writing this response even though I had many things I was supposed to do today.
You made two good suggestions atleast, weightlifting would be great for my self esteem & I plan to keep up with my program but too often procrastinate & miss workouts. I considered the US marine corps before I ever saw a psychiatrist but the pay for an enlistee is ridiculously low & I already had enough money for college saved up from working in high school, & the average salary for my major is $33,000 to start, much higher than the $18,000 the US marine corps pay for enlistees. I considered going to the Virginia Military Institute, an excellent & demanding institution would have been a better choice than the military for leadership training, & could have led to a well paying navy/marine corp officer career, but the tuition for out of state residents at VMI is $14,000 per year, & I am not going to learn to talk to girls or have a normal dating life in a college & a career (military), both of which have a dearth of women. Plus, mental & physical hazing wreaks psychological havoc on those with any kind of mental problems/disorder.
In conclusion, my problem is not natural shyness, but I believe "environmentally induced". As a child I was one of the most outgoing children in my entire school & often the class clown & everyone knew who I was. Unfortunately, my Dad got transferred twice to different states, and the last transfer occured in the middle of the 11th grade high school year when I went to a (public) high school but one that is infamous for its snotty, cliquish, & ridiculously wealthy student body. So basically I was invisible for 2 years and retreated into a shell that I haven't recovered from until I discovered the disinhibition effects of alcohol. Alcohol made me feel like my "real" social self & I didn't care what other people thought of me- which is one of my biggest problems. If you notice on this board where I am anonymous & thus do not care what people think, I am (sometimes brutally) honest, & I write messages (in essence talk) until I run out of room, but in "real life" without alcohol or meds, I say nothing, clam up, especially when talking to those within my peer group & especially girls/women my age where my mind goes blank- because of this i'm too scared to ask girls on a date, & if I do date it never goes well because I can't think of anything to say. Often I don't leave my room or house unless I absolutely have to, & must get all dressed up to, in order to do so, since I guess I am too sensitive to criticism/what people think of me when sober.
I would like to get married in a few years (right now i'm 23), but my shyness/social phobia is really making my life one of loneliness & despair. The most frustrating part is that i've heard many nice-looking sorority girls at my school (U of Texas) think i'm cute/attractive & am one of the only guys that knows how to dress well, but in Texas the girls are still kind of old-fashioned & the male is almost always responsible for initiating conversations & asking for & arranging a date- both extremely frightening experiences for me when sober. Because of my social phobia & lack of self-confidence I haven't asked a girl out, dated or had sex in about 2 years.
If that isn't proof of how debilitating Social Phobia can be, then I don't know what else is!
3 Beer Effect
P.S.- I know some people consider medications to be a "crutch" or "band-aid" for this condition, just like alcohol is but I believe social phobia medication is a useful tool that I plan to combine with cognitive behavioral "exposure" therapy when I return to UT Austin in August.
Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2002, at 13:34:40
In reply to OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
Thanks 3 Beer for presenting the facts of social phobia well and backing it up with facts. While I don't have social phobia myself, I'm sure you spoke for many people who are upset by the minimizing of a very real problem. So many mental health problems get masked by self medication, and therefore don't get the attention they deserve. It took a lot of guts for you to face the underlying problem.
It sounds as if your meds are doing you a lot of good, and will make it possible for cognitive therapy to be of benefit to you as well.
Anyway, I just wanted to congratulate you for taking your hurt and anger and turning it into something constructive.
Posted by OldSchool on March 25, 2002, at 14:00:44
In reply to OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
>
> 3 Beer Effect response:
> This type of misguided attitude is why Social Phobia has been neglected as a psychiatric illness for such a long time. Social Phobia is the most common anxiety disorder & the 3rd most common psychiatric disorder in the US. Social Phobia has a very high prevalence of comorbid disorders such as panic disorder, agoraphobia, and generalized anxiety disorder. Most disturbingly, lifetime alcoholism rates among social phobics ranges from 10-40% and most often social phobia preceded alcohol use- i.e.- alcohol abuse was used as a form of self-medication. Substance abuse hovers at around 15% for this disorder. (Source text: "From Social Anxiety to Social Phobia- Multiple Perspectives, Hoffman/DiBartolo.)"
>
> Millions of americans never come of out their shell, living a life a quiet desperation- When you have Social Phobia, you don't feel like you are being the "real" you- Social Phobia often results in passed up chances for work promotions, salary increases, dating, marriage, & friendships.
>
> In my particular case I would binge drink in social situations, usually 2-3 times per week on the weekend. Unless I was drunk, I retreated into my shell & couldn't talk to anyone.
> I quit drinking with the help of the SSRI Zoloft- otherwise I was headed down the road to a lifetime alcohol abuse problem (raising serotonin decreases alcohol intake in both human & animal models- I went to some AA meetings but the AA alcohol relapse rate hovers around 70-80%. I also found it hard to relate to people that drink by themselves or drink in the morning, I only drank to be sociable. I think many people in AA would greatly benefit from Revia (Naltrexatone) which takes away any pleasure derived from alcohol, and also an SSRI, but the sponsors in AA outright discourage the taking of medications, which I think is an misguided attitude especially since depression & anxiety disorders are very prevalent in alcoholics. - I've done much better on my own with the help of my psychiatrist & psychiatric meds).
>
> "Why didn't I just go to a family doctor for an SSRI or Klonopin?" I did, but eventually because of the severity of my problem combined with comorbid severe depression & possible ADD he properly referred me to a psychiatrist. Do you really think a family doctor is going to prescribe Klonopin, an arguably addictive & unfairly "demonized" benzodiazpine, in the high doses (2-4mg/day) required to treat Social Phobia?
> Granted, Social Phobia is not as serious as say Bipolar I, but ironically the best medicines to treat Social Phobia are one of the most fatal class of drugs in the history of psychiatry- Nardil & Parnate (the MAOIs).
>
> I don't see why seeing a psychiatrist should be reserved "for people with serious & often severe psychiatric illnesses, as you put it,"- I have private health insurance, my seeing a psychiatrist isn't draining your resources/funds to see a psychiatrist- this is not welfare, I am not draining Medicaid funds.
>
> Anyways, my weekend binge drinking of 10-14 drinks every Thursday & Saturday night at college, led to a depression that became severe, & also resulted in attentional problems- that amount of alcohol coursing through your brain causes brain atrophy, & premature brain aging/lesions & probably caused me a chemical imbalance. Also, I often missed classes on Friday & couldn't study on the weekend because of hangovers.
>
> After trying Zoloft, I exhibited very manic, insomniac, & self destructive behavior and so am now diagnosed with severe depression w/ social phobia & possible bipolarity/ or ADD. I now take a rather effective combo of Lamictal 100 mg, 4 mg of Klonopin, and Provigil 200 mg & have not drank since September 11th, & I am now am about as social as I was after 2 beers, & my self-esteem, concentration, & confidence are way up (although not quite the same as the 3 beer level/effect). Some minor medication adjustments (increasing the Lamictal & swapping Provigil for Dexedrine), & I think I will be back to "normal".
>
> Every persons' case is different, you shouldn't judge them or deem their disorder as "ridiculous" as you have, especially considering you don't know my case history, & my history of self-medicating with alcohol & illicit drugs and the consequences those choices inflicted upon myself (DUI, brain swelling/edema/concussion after fight when drunk, hit by a greyhound bus when drunk -thankfully at low speed so no damage except broken nose). In fact, your comment made me so angry that I thought about it all night long, & spent an hour writing this response even though I had many things I was supposed to do today.
>
> You made two good suggestions atleast, weightlifting would be great for my self esteem & I plan to keep up with my program but too often procrastinate & miss workouts. I considered the US marine corps before I ever saw a psychiatrist but the pay for an enlistee is ridiculously low & I already had enough money for college saved up from working in high school, & the average salary for my major is $33,000 to start, much higher than the $18,000 the US marine corps pay for enlistees. I considered going to the Virginia Military Institute, an excellent & demanding institution would have been a better choice than the military for leadership training, & could have led to a well paying navy/marine corp officer career, but the tuition for out of state residents at VMI is $14,000 per year, & I am not going to learn to talk to girls or have a normal dating life in a college & a career (military), both of which have a dearth of women. Plus, mental & physical hazing wreaks psychological havoc on those with any kind of mental problems/disorder.
>
> In conclusion, my problem is not natural shyness, but I believe "environmentally induced". As a child I was one of the most outgoing children in my entire school & often the class clown & everyone knew who I was. Unfortunately, my Dad got transferred twice to different states, and the last transfer occured in the middle of the 11th grade high school year when I went to a (public) high school but one that is infamous for its snotty, cliquish, & ridiculously wealthy student body. So basically I was invisible for 2 years and retreated into a shell that I haven't recovered from until I discovered the disinhibition effects of alcohol. Alcohol made me feel like my "real" social self & I didn't care what other people thought of me- which is one of my biggest problems. If you notice on this board where I am anonymous & thus do not care what people think, I am (sometimes brutally) honest, & I write messages (in essence talk) until I run out of room, but in "real life" without alcohol or meds, I say nothing, clam up, especially when talking to those within my peer group & especially girls/women my age where my mind goes blank- because of this i'm too scared to ask girls on a date, & if I do date it never goes well because I can't think of anything to say. Often I don't leave my room or house unless I absolutely have to, & must get all dressed up to, in order to do so, since I guess I am too sensitive to criticism/what people think of me when sober.
>
> I would like to get married in a few years (right now i'm 23), but my shyness/social phobia is really making my life one of loneliness & despair. The most frustrating part is that i've heard many nice-looking sorority girls at my school (U of Texas) think i'm cute/attractive & am one of the only guys that knows how to dress well, but in Texas the girls are still kind of old-fashioned & the male is almost always responsible for initiating conversations & asking for & arranging a date- both extremely frightening experiences for me when sober. Because of my social phobia & lack of self-confidence I haven't asked a girl out, dated or had sex in about 2 years.
>
> If that isn't proof of how debilitating Social Phobia can be, then I don't know what else is!
>
> 3 Beer Effect
>
> P.S.- I know some people consider medications to be a "crutch" or "band-aid" for this condition, just like alcohol is but I believe social phobia medication is a useful tool that I plan to combine with cognitive behavioral "exposure" therapy when I return to UT Austin in August.
First of all, I think you took my post wrong, as in I was coming down on you personally. I was not. I felt sorry for you actually and from your post, it sounded as if your main problem was social anxiety disorder and not a major mental illness such as major depression, manic depression, schizophrenia, etc. It didnt sound as if you have a major mental illness.I personally believe social anxiety disorder is a very common thing and is more of a personality trait than an actual mental illness. Its "who you are," your personality. Its probably genetic heavily. Some people are just shy and have a hard time loosening up, speaking in public, having social conversations, etc. Others are naturally extroverted and outgoing...I personally believe its heavily genetic. I personally believe medication is a poor way to fight this.
I still maintain my opinion that the best way to overcome personality traits like shyness is focused hard work. Again, heavy weight lifting is a good way to go. If you get big and strong enough, you will become self confident. Also, the military is a good way to develop this sort of thing. You must get up in front of people, give commands, learn to give orders, lead training, instruct, teach, communicate, etc. Its a great way to "come out of your shell." I have known several people I have looked up to as father figures who developed their leadership skills via the military. The military is the only place in our society which has real, formalized leadership traininig.
The booze thing could be a problem in itself. Perhaps you have a substance abuse problem and that needs to be handled separately.
Again, Id suggest continuing weight lifting. Dont do bodybuilding it is crap. Do powerlifting or even learn how to olympic lift. Go heavy, go basic, go pure free weights. Do the explosive fast lifts like cleans. Squats. Overhead pressing. Your fast twitch muscles will proliferate to a degree which you never knew. Lift explosively. Do all movements standing, dont do the bench press its a waste of time, do overhead presses instead. Soon, you will find women will be coming to YOU, you wont have to even try anymore. You wont need booze.
I hope you see my point. When a man is physically fit and feels good and looks good, he is self confident. When a man is self confident women tend to come after you.
Old School
Posted by JahL on March 25, 2002, at 14:10:27
In reply to OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
Yeah, it needed saying 3 Beers. I've had s. phobia for as long as I can remember and it's every bit as debilitating and crippling as you suggest. It has an unusually high morbidity rate for a so-called minor disorder.
Your story resonates v. strongly (i'm only a few yrs older than you), in particular the binge drinking, which I started around 15 years of age, at which point I finally started to become a social being. Twenty beers in a coupla hours & I couldn't give a f*ck what anyone thought of me. I used to get high as a kite off alcohol. Ecstasy was also quite helpful in this regard, for as long as it worked. Was quite partial to anything else going.
As the depression worsened, alcohol began to bring out my dark side and like yourself, I began to get in a few scrapes, broke a couple of knuckles, severed a tendon etc.
Aside from pot, I don't touch anything now, but I don't bother socialising anymore. Just don't enjoy it. More effort than it's worth.
Re: possible bipolarity, you know that BP & s. phobia are considered to be pretty frequently comorbid? I'm BPII + derealisation (which really helps with connecting with people!) and Lamictal + Klonopin is also my treatment of choice, though Sulpiride probably makes the biggest difference re: s. phobia.
J.
Posted by colin wallace on March 25, 2002, at 16:02:12
In reply to Re: OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by OldSchool on March 25, 2002, at 14:00:44
Military service is often touted as some sort of social panacea here in the UK.We had compulsory military service in the 50's, and many hark back with nostalgia to the hardier, discipled self-sufficiency and supposed sense of rectitude that exposure to service life instilled.This generation, though not a patch on the wartime generation, still knew right from wrong,never balked at the thought of a hard days work, and were altogether a better adjusted,grittier bunch than their modern counterparts( who seem amply contented with mugging old ladies, taking drugs, or aimlessly kicking tin cans along high streets.)The Spartan ethic.Am I knocking it?
Not necessarily; I look at my father's generation and indeed see some admirable qualities, perhaps even instilled by a measure of austerity (and a compulsory two year stint in the military).
At little over 18 years of age , I submitted myself to one of the most phyically demanding military training programmes in the world.Certainly the most demanding in the UK.I aspired to what I now call the Spartan ethic.I wanted to brutalise and subjugate all my perceived character inadequacies, my(then) inherant shyness, timidity even.
Well, pushing oneself beyond the limits of endurance (in whatever devlishly ingenious form that may take)is of course an effective way to confront and conquer those inner demons.Let's be banal and use the phrase, 'character building'.
Yes, it works.But character is a kaleidescopic entity, and I have to say that the camaraderie/esprit de corps fostered by service life, does not in any way shape or form transmogrify an individual into a well rounded socialite;those subtle military skills,forever embedded into the psyche, never fail to bring women flocking in droves to be regaled with tales of how I could once drink a gallon of beer whilst simultaneously standing on my head, urinating for three metres and still burn a small patch in the ceiling as I lit my own farts.So I could run up a mountain in the rain and hop out of a plane. So what?
Yes, military life builds a toughness and resilience that will hold you in good stead in dire times.But as a cure for social phobia?
There 's a lot more to self development than mere machismo.Hoisting weights up in the air(or any exercise for that matter)will undoubtedly raise one's self esteem.But many in the military become (at least partly) institutionalized and have great difficulty becoming socially adjusted when they rejoin 'normal' society.Over 50% of homeless people sleeping on the streets of Britain are ex-forces.Of course, this is only one side of the story.Many go on to become great successes, and I have a nostalgic bias towards forces life, and some ex-forces (well adjusted)
friends.
But Mr. three Beers is infinitely more rounded and complete a character than I was in my early twenties.In retrospect, I suffered very similar problems, dealt with them in similar disastrous fashion, and failed to overcome them early enough to perhaps avert much real suffering and a consequent breakdown in my 30's.
So lift weights and build your confidence by all means- but at university, you're in the perfect setting to properly develop those social skills,learn from any social ineptness, make mistakes and gaffes with women, and hopefully not take them too seriously! Trying to become JohnWayne isn't the answer.Your sensibilities are (as Mr. Old School rightly said) a unique part of your character.But you don't need to throttle them.When shyness and fear govern your social life to the extent that you cannot function and become depressed and completely derailed, seeking psychiatric help is, IMHO, far braver and more constructive than running up a hill in the rain, or lighting your own farts.
Ask any woman......Col.
Posted by OldSchool on March 25, 2002, at 16:08:41
In reply to Re: OSchl- Social PhobiaOl' school+ 3 beers., posted by colin wallace on March 25, 2002, at 16:02:12
> Military service is often touted as some sort of social panacea here in the UK.We had compulsory military service in the 50's, and many hark back with nostalgia to the hardier, discipled self-sufficiency and supposed sense of rectitude that exposure to service life instilled.This generation, though not a patch on the wartime generation, still knew right from wrong,never balked at the thought of a hard days work, and were altogether a better adjusted,grittier bunch than their modern counterparts( who seem amply contented with mugging old ladies, taking drugs, or aimlessly kicking tin cans along high streets.)The Spartan ethic.Am I knocking it?
> Not necessarily; I look at my father's generation and indeed see some admirable qualities, perhaps even instilled by a measure of austerity (and a compulsory two year stint in the military).
> At little over 18 years of age , I submitted myself to one of the most phyically demanding military training programmes in the world.Certainly the most demanding in the UK.I aspired to what I now call the Spartan ethic.I wanted to brutalise and subjugate all my perceived character inadequacies, my(then) inherant shyness, timidity even.
> Well, pushing oneself beyond the limits of endurance (in whatever devlishly ingenious form that may take)is of course an effective way to confront and conquer those inner demons.Let's be banal and use the phrase, 'character building'.
> Yes, it works.But character is a kaleidescopic entity, and I have to say that the camaraderie/esprit de corps fostered by service life, does not in any way shape or form transmogrify an individual into a well rounded socialite;those subtle military skills,forever embedded into the psyche, never fail to bring women flocking in droves to be regaled with tales of how I could once drink a gallon of beer whilst simultaneously standing on my head, urinating for three metres and still burn a small patch in the ceiling as I lit my own farts.So I could run up a mountain in the rain and hop out of a plane. So what?
> Yes, military life builds a toughness and resilience that will hold you in good stead in dire times.But as a cure for social phobia?
> There 's a lot more to self development than mere machismo.Hoisting weights up in the air(or any exercise for that matter)will undoubtedly raise one's self esteem.But many in the military become (at least partly) institutionalized and have great difficulty becoming socially adjusted when they rejoin 'normal' society.Over 50% of homeless people sleeping on the streets of Britain are ex-forces.Of course, this is only one side of the story.Many go on to become great successes, and I have a nostalgic bias towards forces life, and some ex-forces (well adjusted)
> friends.
> But Mr. three Beers is infinitely more rounded and complete a character than I was in my early twenties.In retrospect, I suffered very similar problems, dealt with them in similar disastrous fashion, and failed to overcome them early enough to perhaps avert much real suffering and a consequent breakdown in my 30's.
> So lift weights and build your confidence by all means- but at university, you're in the perfect setting to properly develop those social skills,learn from any social ineptness, make mistakes and gaffes with women, and hopefully not take them too seriously! Trying to become JohnWayne isn't the answer.Your sensibilities are (as Mr. Old School rightly said) a unique part of your character.But you don't need to throttle them.When shyness and fear govern your social life to the extent that you cannot function and become depressed and completely derailed, seeking psychiatric help is, IMHO, far braver and more constructive than running up a hill in the rain, or lighting your own farts.
> Ask any woman......
>
> Col.
Col, I was just suggesting that some military leadership training is a better way to build up self confidence than taking drugs. Confidence doesnt come out of a bottle. People with leadership qualities dont tend to have these social anxiety problems. Leadership can be learned. Also, I have noticed that the more fit I am, the more confident feeling I am.Were you a British Royal Marine Commando any chance?
Old School
Posted by colin wallace on March 25, 2002, at 17:22:23
In reply to Re: OSchl- Social PhobiaOl' school+ 3 beers., posted by OldSchool on March 25, 2002, at 16:08:41
I don't disagree with you here;confidence most certainly does not come out of a bottle.And for SOME people, military training is of course invaluable.Any form of confidence building, including those (primarily outdoor/physical) activities designed to instill leadership qualities would of course be preferrable to taking drugs.This encourages a specific sense of confidence and well-being.I still spend as much time as possible wandering around wintry hills (though I've outgrown the inflammable gases bit-I carry flares instead).I look back at when I personally became derailed at 15 or 16-binge drinking, delinquancy etc. I had a very real case of social phobia, an incipient genetically inherited depression for which I frantically sought (unknowingly) to self medicate.Untreated for years, it eventually led to a paralysing anxiety and chronic major depression.I lived with it, fought it,hid it, worked successfully with it, became 'educated' with it (more accurately, despite it) built and lost careers with it.I can trace it all back to the hidden beginnings of a serious social phobia.
I agree with you wholeheartedly when you infer that that the term is overused.Schoolchildren in the UK who are simply shy, are often ushered to see doctors, who are pressganged into prescribing needless meds by over zealous parents. I have seen this often.
I, unfortunately, however much I dislike admitting it, was one of those who would have benefitted immensely from some form of medication.I took my disabling anxiety/depression and flogged myself to death with it.With perhaps just a tiny bit of medical correction, friendly personal intervention early on, I would still have made it to top of the hill- but I would have done so out of a better motive force than anger/bitterness and insecurity.I would never have become suicidal.
(Incidentally, I now find it ironic that my ingrained stubborness/self-resilience and anger, which allowed me to function for so many years with serious depression, prevented me from seeking help and led to my eventual 'downfall'!!)
Ain't life funny.Keep well,
Col.
Posted by geno on March 25, 2002, at 17:57:41
In reply to Re: OSchl- Social PhobiaOl' school+ 3 beers., posted by OldSchool on March 25, 2002, at 16:08:41
TO 3 beers and all posts,
3 beers, your 110% right. Let me tell you my backround. Im a personal trainer, nutrition and supplement advisor, kickboxer, judo etc. iv been bodybuilding for 12 yrs.
Im 29 yrs old. I began alcohol usage since 18 yrs old, drinking say 6 beers on average, more on weekends about 5 nights a week. Up until 2 yrs ago, i found ghb, well actually its called gbl, products such as renutrient. LET me tell you, this tops alcohol 10 times for social phobia, depression, anxiety. GHB has so many effects on the body, positive. BUT the media only portrays it as date rape. GHB is non toxic, and is naturally produced in the body. alcohol kills your body to be point blankIv been using ghb on an off for 2 yrs. some times all day long. i tried so many meds with no avail. GHB enhances your mood very quickly, and is very addictve for people suffereing from depression and anxiety, social phobia.
I must say i can relate so much to 3 beers. i havent drank since sept 10th.
geno
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 25, 2002, at 18:57:12
In reply to Re: OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by OldSchool on March 25, 2002, at 14:00:44
o.k. i'm really slow right now b/c of high dose of depakote for bipolar disorder, and i cannot spell, so i'm not sure if i got agoraphobia correct to begin with - i meant "fear of open spaces or being out in public" not fear of spiders". i really can't remember."
i am a "naturally shy" person - i am introverted. i write and i read and i prefer being alone or with one friend rather than a crowd. i generally prefer animals to people.
our society does not really "like" introverts. we sometimes make extroverts uncomfortable (of course, i tend to find extroverts loud and attention-grabbing). from school-age on we are taught that oral participation in class is very important (part of the grade even), that being aggressive in sports is good (this goes for us women, too) and that having a "people-oriented" personality and a good public speaking persona are key to success in business, politics - gee, what else?
so there's that word personality - i have an introverted personality. i am shy. i am fine with this. unfortunately when manic i exhibit the opposite behavior and this has landed me in trouble a plenty.
3beereffect pointed out that he is not comfortable with his behavior, that it does not seem like his true self. introverts don't have trouble leaving the house, or fear of others' opinions. they're quiet. they're self-involved (some might say :)). they're introspective.
commenting on substance abuse when there are clearly other problems present, as if it exists on its own, seems naive to me. i don't think 3 beer could have said it with more clarity - he drank when in social situations to ease the tension. i drink to ease the mania, less often to ease the depression. it makes me just a tad frustrated when folks want to separate two disorders that are clearly linked.
rambling too much, sorry.
- kk
Posted by mike21 on March 25, 2002, at 19:37:59
In reply to shyness versus social phobia/agoraphobia, posted by Krazy Kat on March 25, 2002, at 18:57:12
I don't know if I would qualify as being socially phobic. Maybe more like socially apathetic. I just don't care for engaging others socially. I think it has to do with a lack of ability to experience pleasure. I've solved this with alcohol and benzodiazapines. The problem for me is that withdrawing from these substances makes me feel worse than before I started.
I think if social phobia is anything like what I experience, then self-confidence is not the problem. It is more like self-knowledge that no amount of exposure to an anxiety-provoking situation will make me enjoy it any more. And I know going into any social situation that a certain amount of acting will be required on my part, in order to do the things others find so natural. So in that respect, I am socially avoidant.
I have found an increase in my pleasure in life from exercise, mostly aerobic, presumably due to the release of endorphins. Maybe weight lifting would have the same effect.
I agree that shyness is a genetic character trait. But the word itself implies a shortcoming. (And with the availability of psychotropic medications, it might become more rare and increasingly avoided.) I am pretty comfortable with being introverted. Maybe too comfortable. I just can't help feeling that life is meant to be so much more.
Mike
Posted by Cruz on March 25, 2002, at 21:22:35
In reply to Re: shyness versus social phobia/agoraphobia, posted by mike21 on March 25, 2002, at 19:37:59
Poor eye sight is usually caused by a genetic problem. Allmost no one would just accept their bad vision and go without glasses would they.
Posted by SadSuzie on March 26, 2002, at 1:33:50
In reply to OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
I haven't posted on the board in a very long time, but I won't sleep tonight if I don't respond to the comments on social phobia.
Old School -
Social phobia IS a serious, life altering illness. Advising a social phobic to just find a way to build self-esteem is ludicrous. Would you tell a suicidal depressive to just go have some fun? Think about it.
Before you comment on an illness, please take time to do the research. If you’re interested in really understanding social phobia, the following URL is a good start.
www.socialphobia.org.3 Beer Effect –
You wisely took the high road and chose to educate instead of attack. Well done.
Posted by Zo on March 26, 2002, at 3:21:11
In reply to OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
Posted by fachad on March 26, 2002, at 9:55:00
In reply to OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
3 Beers,
Is your Social Phobia limited to the initiating of mating related activities with members of the opposite sex?
Or is it more global and affects all areas of social interaction in your life?
I was REALLY shy about dating or even talking to a woman I found attractive, and it was the central focus of my emotional misery and isolation from about age 12 to age 24. I never even had one single date in high school or the first two years of college. People thought I was gay or something.
I overcame it with a combination of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) and Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT). David Burns wrote an excellent book on this exact problem, titled "Intimate Connections" and I would highly recommend it. All of David Burns and Albert Ellis books are very good.
Another factor that made a HUGE difference for me was a telemarketing job that I got to pay my way thru college. That job taught me that rejection meant NOTHING and it was all just a numbers game. I was told "NO" and "piss-off" a few hundred times a day, every day, and to my surprise, I did not die, and I even managed to sell a few jobs every day! I was able to transfer that experience into the bar scene, and lost all fear of being “shot down”. That realization (that rejection meant nothing) really changed my life. It might be worth your while to seek out some equally desensitizing experience.
P.S. I also found that 3 beers were helpful in emboldening me with the opposite sex!
Posted by trouble on March 26, 2002, at 23:10:58
In reply to Re: OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by SadSuzie on March 26, 2002, at 1:33:50
Posted by jonh kimble on November 10, 2002, at 0:05:15
In reply to Genetic, posted by Cruz on March 25, 2002, at 21:22:35
Perfectly said. Although consider this. An ugly nose is also probably caused by a genetic factor. Is plastic surgery condonable? I would have to say yes. I guess it comes down to that life is simply not the perfect balanced haven we imagine it to be.
> Poor eye sight is usually caused by a genetic problem. Allmost no one would just accept their bad vision and go without glasses would they.
Posted by morel1 on January 18, 2004, at 17:00:55
In reply to OSchl- Social Phobia a real,debilitating illness!!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 25, 2002, at 13:20:12
I know somebody may never read this but I just want to thank you for explaining how frustrating this problem can be. I know now I suffer from this for many years and hopefully I can get over this like you. I'm 23 and like you this has been a dpressing time for me. Thanx for shedding light on this topic.
MOrel
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