![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 117 to 141 of 200. Go back in thread:
Posted by spike4848 on February 10, 2002, at 20:59:00
In reply to Re: no sex drive anymore, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 19:53:40
Yeah .... I am shocked when I talk to my pdoc. He will say things like "Imipramine is a good drug but many of my patients stop it because of dry mouth and constipation." I can't believe people will stop a med because of DRY MOUTH! That is absured! And yes, these patient must not be experiencing true depression. I wonder if they have every struggled getting out of bed, not have enough energy to eat/shower, been housebound for months .... probably not.
Spike
Posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 22:55:48
In reply to Real Depression » OldSchool, posted by spike4848 on February 10, 2002, at 20:59:00
> Yeah .... I am shocked when I talk to my pdoc. He will say things like "Imipramine is a good drug but many of my patients stop it because of dry mouth and constipation." I can't believe people will stop a med because of DRY MOUTH! That is absured! And yes, these patient must not be experiencing true depression. I wonder if they have every struggled getting out of bed, not have enough energy to eat/shower, been housebound for months .... probably not.
>
> Spike
Yeah...I am the same way I am absolutely amazed at this stuff I hear from people about antidepressants. I can understand if the ADs are making you manic or hypomanic or whatever. Thats a serious side effect of antidepressants. However this stuff about weight gain, dry mouth, sexual dysfunction, etc. while troubling and a pain in the ass sometimes, its not a big deal compared to real deal SEVERE clinical depression!!!Im not coming down on anybody, but I do chuckle sometimes when I read that kind of stuff. I instantly think to myself "this person never had real depression before." Thats always what pops into my mind. Id gladly trade ten or even twenty pounds weight gain and some delayed ejaculation and some dry mouth for a good drug that got me to full remission and kept me there longterm. GLADLY.
Old School
Posted by kiddo on February 10, 2002, at 23:12:19
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 22:55:48
Excuse me for interrupting here....
How can you say that someone has never had real depression before? People's experiences are different and what may seem like nothing to one person may be completely debilitating to another...
> Yeah...I am the same way I am absolutely amazed at this stuff I hear from people about antidepressants. I can understand if the ADs are making you manic or hypomanic or whatever. Thats a serious side effect of antidepressants. However this stuff about weight gain, dry mouth, sexual dysfunction, etc. while troubling and a pain in the ass sometimes, its not a big deal compared to real deal SEVERE clinical depression!!!
>
> Im not coming down on anybody, but I do chuckle sometimes when I read that kind of stuff. I instantly think to myself "this person never had real depression before." Thats always what pops into my mind. Id gladly trade ten or even twenty pounds weight gain and some delayed ejaculation and some dry mouth for a good drug that got me to full remission and kept me there longterm. GLADLY.
>
> Old School
Posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 23:38:38
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by kiddo on February 10, 2002, at 23:12:19
> Excuse me for interrupting here....
>
> How can you say that someone has never had real depression before? People's experiences are different and what may seem like nothing to one person may be completely debilitating to another...
>
Its easy to say that. Because its the truth. Real depression is not just this sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts stuff, sure thats a big part of it...the emotional part of it. But REAL depression...clinical depression...is where you have the above plus your body starts falling apart on you. Severe depression does weird things to your body. Severe depression totally screws up your sleep...and Im not talking oversleeping here. Try severe, total insomnia. Severe depression makes you lose thirty pounds without trying and makes you totally lose your appetite. Like you eat a third of your normal meal and you are full. Real depression destroys your cognition and makes you demented where you cant think clearly or remember anything. Real depression is where you totally lose your sex drive and cant get it up anymore. Real depression is where when you have an orgasm...no semen comes out you have a dry ejaculation and the orgasm feels shitty like it wansnt even a real orgasm.Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
Youd be amazed at what cutting out booze totally will do for dysthymia.
Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
Old School
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2002, at 0:05:43
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by kiddo on February 10, 2002, at 23:12:19
Thanks for saying that, kiddo. It needed to be said. It doesn't seem to me to be all that useful to get into comparisons of depression. If someone is suffering and perhaps having suicidal thoughts, does it really matter if vegetative symptoms of depression are present?
I'm not depressed right now, but there are times that just the suggestion that my suffering was "only" mild depression would be have been extremely disturbing to me. And for the record, I was diagnosed at the time with major depressive disorder, recurrent, moderate.> Excuse me for interrupting here....
>
> How can you say that someone has never had real depression before? People's experiences are different and what may seem like nothing to one person may be completely debilitating to another...
>
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> > Yeah...I am the same way I am absolutely amazed at this stuff I hear from people about antidepressants. I can understand if the ADs are making you manic or hypomanic or whatever. Thats a serious side effect of antidepressants. However this stuff about weight gain, dry mouth, sexual dysfunction, etc. while troubling and a pain in the ass sometimes, its not a big deal compared to real deal SEVERE clinical depression!!!
> >
> > Im not coming down on anybody, but I do chuckle sometimes when I read that kind of stuff. I instantly think to myself "this person never had real depression before." Thats always what pops into my mind. Id gladly trade ten or even twenty pounds weight gain and some delayed ejaculation and some dry mouth for a good drug that got me to full remission and kept me there longterm. GLADLY.
> >
> > Old School
Posted by jane d on February 11, 2002, at 0:15:51
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 23:38:38
Real depression is...
Being totally self centered and unable to care about anybody elses pain.
Being hostile to the entire world. Finding someone else to blame for everything.
Posted by kiddo on February 11, 2002, at 0:37:37
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 23:38:38
>Its easy to say that. Because its the truth. Real depression is not just this sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts stuff, sure thats a big part of it...the emotional part of it. But REAL depression...clinical depression...is where you have the above plus your body starts falling apart on you. Severe depression does weird things to your body. Severe depression totally screws up your sleep...and Im not talking oversleeping here. Try severe, total insomnia. Severe depression makes you lose thirty pounds without trying and makes you totally lose your appetite. Like you eat a third of your normal meal and you are full. Real depression destroys your cognition and makes you demented where you cant think clearly or remember anything. Real depression is where you totally lose your sex drive and cant get it up anymore. Real depression is where when you have an orgasm...no semen comes out you have a dry ejaculation and the orgasm feels shitty like it wansnt even a real orgasm.
>
I disagree. Real depression IS the sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts “stuff” you are talking about. People respond to depression in different ways…because you have insomnia doesn’t mean that if someone sleeps 22 out of 24 hours doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically depressed. Severe depression can also make you GAIN thirty pound without trying and not increasing your appetite. Real depression affects different people in different ways…as for the dry ejaculation, I can’t comment, as I’m a woman. However, I don’t understand if REAL depression is not being able to get it up, how could you even have a dry ejaculation…but again, I’m “only” a woman…depression regardless of how ‘severe’ is still REAL DEPRESSION!!!!! Suicidal thoughts with or without other symptoms of clinical depression are a very serious matter, and someone that’s suffering from fake depression doesn’t have suicidal thoughts.
>
> Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
>Depression is depression and I’m not going to argue the matter of physical vs. mental illness. Why should it be formally reclassified as a Neurological disease? What if you sleep ‘too good’? Is your physical health going to deteriorate as well? Your symptoms are not the only symptoms of depression. There isn’t only “one” way to be depressed….Different people process things differently, the same disorder/disease can have different effects on different people. If that weren’t the case then we’d only need one med for each disorder, right?
> Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
>Thanks for the apology, you are graphic…I realize you are trying to point out the differences between the different FORMS of depression, and I agree there are differences…BUT they are all REAL DEPRESSION!
> A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
>I disagree again…ppl become REALLY depressed (vs. unreal) by weight gain, lack of sexual desire/performance, and other side effects of medication. True, being able to sleep is a relief, as well as WAKING UP can be. To you drug effects seem trivial, however, that isn’t the situation with everyone.
> Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
>
I’m sorry you put it that way too. It’s really sad because you know; people with “life stress” kill themselves everyday. Why do you think these people party so much, and drink too much alcohol? Why do you think they aren’t really depressed in the first place?> Youd be amazed at what cutting out booze totally will do for dysthymia.
What about the ones with Dysthymia that DON’T drink?>
> Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
>
Your attitude regarding Psychiatry really concerns me. I’m amazed at your hatred toward the mental health field. What exactly do you consider ‘real mental illness’? I don’t know what a psychiatrist did to you to warrant such venom toward all psychiatrists, but it sure seems that way. I don’t have much patience either, and I’ve been through more than my share of bad things in life.Have your meds cured you? Are you now functioning, sleeping, eating normally, and being a normal person in society? I’m not trying to be facetious, sarcastic and/or whatnot, I’m honestly curious as to how your meds have helped.
Kiddo
> Old School
Posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
In reply to Re: Real Depression » OldSchool, posted by kiddo on February 11, 2002, at 0:37:37
>
>
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> I disagree. Real depression IS the sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts “stuff” you are talking about. People respond to depression in different ways…because you have insomnia doesn’t mean that if someone sleeps 22 out of 24 hours doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically depressed. Severe depression can also make you GAIN thirty pound without trying and not increasing your appetite. Real depression affects different people in different ways…as for the dry ejaculation, I can’t comment, as I’m a woman. However, I don’t understand if REAL depression is not being able to get it up, how could you even have a dry ejaculation…but again, I’m “only” a woman…depression regardless of how ‘severe’ is still REAL DEPRESSION!!!!! Suicidal thoughts with or without other symptoms of clinical depression are a very serious matter, and someone that’s suffering from fake depression doesn’t have suicidal thoughts.
Look, I am just trying to make you aware that there are varying degrees of severity of mental illness. Have you ever been to a mental hospital and been to the "lockup" ward? Where the psychotic people are? Where the doctors just keep you drugged up for days. Are you going to honestly tell me that "dythymia" is as severe or as serious as that?There are varying degrees of severity when it comes to mood disorders. For example, classic manic depression (bipolar disorder) is WAY more serious than dysthymia. And the melancholia subtype of major depression (severe sleeping, eating, sex drive and cognition probs) is way more severe than dysthymia.
A person with dysthymia can usually still generally function in the world, still work some type of job, etc. It is irritating to read about people who stop modern class antidepressants for trivial reasons (sexual dysfunction, weight gain, dry mouth) when your depressed as dirt, cant sleep good and losing weight like crazy and cant work cause you cant think clearly.
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> > Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
> >
>
> Depression is depression and I’m not going to argue the matter of physical vs. mental illness. Why should it be formally reclassified as a Neurological disease?Because all severe forms of mental illness are brain based illnesses. Severe mental illness causes changes in the brain. Things would be much better for all of us if society just started thinking of these problems as neuro diseases and not as "emotional" problems. Trust me on this, all of us "mentally ill" people would be taken much more seriously if our society perceived our problems as physically based, neuro diseases of the brain.
All behavior, both normal and abnormal, is mediated thru neuronal function ie, the brain.
> What if you sleep ‘too good’? Is your physical health going to deteriorate as well? Your symptoms are not the only symptoms of depression. There isn’t only “one” way to be depressed….Different people process things differently, the same disorder/disease can have different effects on different people. If that weren’t the case then we’d only need one med for each disorder, right?
>
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> > Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
> >
>
>
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> Thanks for the apology, you are graphic…I realize you are trying to point out the differences between the different FORMS of depression, and I agree there are differences…BUT they are all REAL DEPRESSION!Sure its all real depression, but there are degrees of severity. Some cause disability more than others. Dysthymia or situational depression rarely causes longterm disability.
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> > A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
> >
>
>
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> I disagree again…ppl become REALLY depressed (vs. unreal) by weight gain, lack of sexual desire/performance, and other side effects of medication.LOL...again its obvious you never had real depression before.
>True, being able to sleep is a relief, as well as WAKING UP can be. To you drug effects seem trivial, however, that isn’t the situation with everyone.
Sure its not the situation with everyone. For people who have milder forms of depression, these folks havent yet experienced the severe breakdown in basic physiological bodily functions that severe depression causes. What psychiatry classifies as "somatic" complaints. For someone who hasnt yet experienced the real thing, SSRI side effects are bothersome.
All I have to say about that is wait til you get nailed by the big one. Real melancholic SEVERE major depression. Or psychotic depression. Or manic depression. LOL hehehe Trust me, you wont care about "SSRI side effects" anymore. You will thank God just for the fact you have these drugs so you can sleep and not end up going crazy.
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> > Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
> >
>
>
> I’m sorry you put it that way too. It’s really sad because you know; people with “life stress” kill themselves everyday. Why do you think these people party so much, and drink too much alcohol? Why do you think they aren’t really depressed in the first place?A person with true depression...clinical depression wouldnt even be partying to begin with. Plenty of people with dysthymia or mild depression self medicate with booze and recreational drugs however.
I found after I became clinically depressed my response to booze totally changed. I found out that I didnt get a beer buzz anymore and booze didnt make me feel loose and happy anymore. Booze just made me sadder, more depressed, cry more and made my insomnia MUCH worse.
Many cases of "mild depression" and dysthymia are caused by or exacerbated by alcohol. And too often the person doesnt even realize its the booze causing their dysthymia. Cut out booze totally and see how your mood lifts if you have dysthymia.
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> > Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
> >
>
>
> Your attitude regarding Psychiatry really concerns me. I’m amazed at your hatred toward the mental health field. What exactly do you consider ‘real mental illness’?Here is my personal definition of "real mental illness."
1) schizophrenia and all psychotic disorders
2) classic manic depression AKA bipolar type 1
3) major depression, especially the melancholia or psychotic depression subtypes
4) all of the anxiety disorders>I don’t know what a psychiatrist did to you to warrant such venom toward all psychiatrists, but it sure seems that way. I don’t have much patience either, and I’ve been through more than my share of bad things in life.
>
> Have your meds cured you? Are you now functioning, sleeping, eating normally, and being a normal person in society?Hell no. Im hanging out on psychobabble arent I? What do you think people who hang out here are like? Many of them are treatment resistant.
>I’m not trying to be facetious, sarcastic and/or whatnot, I’m honestly curious as to how your meds have helped.
As Ive already told you several times, meds dont work for me very good. Somewhat, enough to keep me afloat and alive but thats all. Im hardly in remission which is what Id like. Like I said, Id gladly trade some "SSRI side effects" for a drug that sent me into remission and kept me there. Antidepressant side effects are rather trivial to me.
Old School
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> Kiddo
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> > Old School
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2002, at 11:27:54
In reply to Re: no sex drive anymore, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 19:53:40
> You must not have real clinical depression then.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them or their experiences. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration (or emailed to me directly).
Posted by pedr on February 11, 2002, at 12:42:07
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
Just my 2d's worth...
At certain stages of my depression I've been suicidal for weeks, had panic-level fear and terror for days, sat and stared at the wall for days, cycled around looking for people to crash into and sometimes just felt so low just being alive was undescribably sickening.At the moment I'm on wellbutrin and reboxetine and whilst 50% of my time is bloody horrible, I manage to get to work most of the time and to go out once every couple of weeks or so. From the drugs I get nausea, headaches and severe constipation every day. I agree with OldSchool that these forms of side-effects are *NOTHING* compared to catatonic depression or terror like you've never experienced before.
*HOWEVER*, before I got depression I simply did not know that it was possible to feel that bad. I thought feeling hurt after falling out with a mate was "really bad" - that was the only point of reference I had. So, I think that when people complain of side-effects and dysthymia, that does not make them weak or whingers, they simply do not know any worse. To them, it is the worst they've felt and thus is bloody disturbing. This is perfectly understandable really I think, even though I often think "I'd bite my own arm off to have just sexual dysfunction to worry about".
Errr, that's about it. Cheers all and best wishes.
pete.
Posted by spike4848 on February 11, 2002, at 18:47:42
In reply to Re: blocked for week » OldSchool, posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2002, at 11:27:54
Sorry for my prior statement, I was just thinking back to an instance where I was trying pamelor .... the constipation, dry mouth and fatigue were not that bad. My pdoc told me that several of his patients stopped it because of dry mouth. So I thought either my side effects were mild or the other patient's depression was mild. I was JEALOUS of the other patient and which I could just discard a med because of dry mouth.
But everyone's depression is real .... I mean would who fake it .... there is no glamour or gain in depression.
Sorry
Spike
Posted by sid on February 11, 2002, at 19:00:51
In reply to Everyone's Depression is Real, posted by spike4848 on February 11, 2002, at 18:47:42
> I was JEALOUS of the other patient and which I could just discard a med because of dry mouth.
You shouldn't be jealous of them. They may be discarding a medicine that could truely help them for something as benign as constipation or dry mouth. I've had almost all listed side effects of Effexor XR and then some. But I stuck to it and now the side effects have disappeared and those that remain I'm learning to manage (sleep problems mostly). And I have no symptom of depression, dysthymia and anxiety. I was tempted to switch to something else at the beginning, or to stop ADs altogether, but I went past the first few weeks, and with time I have discovered the benefits of the medicine. I wouldn't trade this for the world right now.
Posted by IsoM on February 11, 2002, at 19:42:55
In reply to Everyone's Depression is Real, posted by spike4848 on February 11, 2002, at 18:47:42
Sid & Spike - I know some people's reasons for stopping a med are pretty lame but the degree of almost everything defers quite a bit. Mind you, when you're dead, you're dead or when you're pregnant, you're pregnant - no degree in that!
But the dry mouth I had from TCAs was so bad that I'd have to be primed first to be able to spit, if I wanted to. I couldn't talk for more than a minute or two without my mouth & right down my throat becoming so dry it hurt. I couldn't even try to pull up some saliva to wet my mouth. Gum, mints, OTC products & frequent drinking did nothing to help. It was really severe.
My constipation was pretty bad too but I found ways of improving matters some but still had to fall back on laxatives once a week just to clear myself. Spike, you know of paralytic ileus. It's not a common problem with TCAs but can happen too. I ate so much oat bran & various fibre, I felt more like a horse than person. That's why when SSRIs came along, I gladly switched meds.
Posted by petezz on February 11, 2002, at 21:43:04
In reply to Sexual Side Effects SUCK (ok, bad choice of words), posted by ethan on February 10, 2002, at 0:05:16
I know someone(24)who had terrible sexual side effects with Paxil for years. Paxil worked so well for him he refused to stop taking it. His Doc mentioned another patient who had the same problem and said he'd smoke a 'joint' about an hour before he and his wife were ready. The doc went on to mention he absolutely does not suggest nor condone illegal marijuana use and winked at him at the same time. He tried it too and said it worked perfectly. So, tried it. Not only does it get 'things' up and working again it also increased the feeling and and intensity of ejaculation. Viagara costs $255 for 30 tablets and 90% of the health plans out there will not cover the cost of Viagara. An 1/8 oz of marijuana costs less than $60 and lasted me almost a month. Please understand I do not advocate the use of 'pot' however it's worked very well for me and my friend. We both had adverse side effects with both dosages of Viagara to say nothing of the cost involved. Weigh the risks vs.the benefits
Posted by kiddo on February 11, 2002, at 22:41:55
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
Yes, I have been in a mental hospital and on the ‘locked’ ward…I’m not now nor have I ever said dysthymia, cyclothymia, major depression, manic depression or any other form of depression was more or less severe than another. What I’m saying is that you seem to be downplaying, minimizing, and/or trivializing others’ experiences if they aren’t suffering from major depression.
Major depression, as all of the mood disorders ARE mental illnesses, with physical symptoms…from my understanding, they are classified as a psychiatric disorder. Severe mental illness may cause a change in the brain, but not all of them originate that way…for example, severe childhood trauma (physical, sexual, emotional, etc..) can cause those changes…hence ‘mental illness’ not physical.
Sorry, but I learned long ago about trusting, and don’t trust anyone that says “Trust me”…no offense, just how I am. I think all of us ‘mentally ill’ people would be taken more seriously if our society was educated on the truth, there are too many stereotypes/stigmas attached because people are uneducated.
Thank you for admitting they are ALL real depression, that’s what I’ve been trying to say all along…it is you not me that used ‘real’ depression vs. ‘dysthmia’, etc…(not quoting that mind you)
Again-side effects seem rather trivial too you…
I don’t know what you are talking about when you say “LOL-Again it’s obvious you never had real depression before”. Although I’m not sure, I can’t recall you saying it before, and if you had, I chose to ‘not see’ it there…I take offense at your claiming to know what I have or haven’t been Dx’d with, what I have or haven’t been through in my life, and if I’m suffering more or less than you; especially if you are claiming it’s this ‘obvious’ from reading the very few posts I’ve made to PB….
The truth of the matter is you don’t know me at all, so please don’t pretend that you do. I may have been through a lot more than you or anyone else on this board, and then again maybe not, but I don’t claim that I have, don’t think my suffering is any greater than anyone else’s here, because I honestly don’t know. Something that I’ve dealt with may not have bothered someone else, or may have sent them to the psych ward…I don’t downplay or trivialize another’s experience for that very reason…you really don’t know unless you’ve walked a mile in their mocassins. True?
For the record, I have been ‘nailed by the big one’. Again, you are basing your knowledge on the fact that I’m not agreeing with you, so I must not have had the ‘real’ thing, or at least that’s how it is in my opinion. I’m glad you find it funny, because I never have and wouldn’t, especially if I had been there and supposedly knew that someone else hadn’t.
You didn’t give me a definition of ‘real mental illness’, you gave me mental disorders. I know those, but thanks for answering.
My meds have helped me, and I’m still here; no, I’m not cured either, but improving, and care about the people I’ve met and become ‘friends’ with. I was only asking about your meds, and how you were doing. I feel like I’m being treated as if I crawled from under a rock, I haven’t.
I’m sorry, but I don’t remember you ever saying that meds weren’t successful for you-I apologize if you have.
Kiddo
> >
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> > I disagree. Real depression IS the sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts “stuff” you are talking about. People respond to depression in different ways…because you have insomnia doesn’t mean that if someone sleeps 22 out of 24 hours doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically depressed. Severe depression can also make you GAIN thirty pound without trying and not increasing your appetite. Real depression affects different people in different ways…as for the dry ejaculation, I can’t comment, as I’m a woman. However, I don’t understand if REAL depression is not being able to get it up, how could you even have a dry ejaculation…but again, I’m “only” a woman…depression regardless of how ‘severe’ is still REAL DEPRESSION!!!!! Suicidal thoughts with or without other symptoms of clinical depression are a very serious matter, and someone that’s suffering from fake depression doesn’t have suicidal thoughts.
>
>
> Look, I am just trying to make you aware that there are varying degrees of severity of mental illness. Have you ever been to a mental hospital and been to the "lockup" ward? Where the psychotic people are? Where the doctors just keep you drugged up for days. Are you going to honestly tell me that "dythymia" is as severe or as serious as that?
>
> There are varying degrees of severity when it comes to mood disorders. For example, classic manic depression (bipolar disorder) is WAY more serious than dysthymia. And the melancholia subtype of major depression (severe sleeping, eating, sex drive and cognition probs) is way more severe than dysthymia.
>
> A person with dysthymia can usually still generally function in the world, still work some type of job, etc. It is irritating to read about people who stop modern class antidepressants for trivial reasons (sexual dysfunction, weight gain, dry mouth) when your depressed as dirt, cant sleep good and losing weight like crazy and cant work cause you cant think clearly.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
> > >
> >
> > Depression is depression and I’m not going to argue the matter of physical vs. mental illness. Why should it be formally reclassified as a Neurological disease?
>
> Because all severe forms of mental illness are brain based illnesses. Severe mental illness causes changes in the brain. Things would be much better for all of us if society just started thinking of these problems as neuro diseases and not as "emotional" problems. Trust me on this, all of us "mentally ill" people would be taken much more seriously if our society perceived our problems as physically based, neuro diseases of the brain.
>
> All behavior, both normal and abnormal, is mediated thru neuronal function ie, the brain.
>
> > What if you sleep ‘too good’? Is your physical health going to deteriorate as well? Your symptoms are not the only symptoms of depression. There isn’t only “one” way to be depressed….Different people process things differently, the same disorder/disease can have different effects on different people. If that weren’t the case then we’d only need one med for each disorder, right?
> >
> >
> > > Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the apology, you are graphic…I realize you are trying to point out the differences between the different FORMS of depression, and I agree there are differences…BUT they are all REAL DEPRESSION!
>
> Sure its all real depression, but there are degrees of severity. Some cause disability more than others. Dysthymia or situational depression rarely causes longterm disability.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > I disagree again…ppl become REALLY depressed (vs. unreal) by weight gain, lack of sexual desire/performance, and other side effects of medication.
>
> LOL...again its obvious you never had real depression before.
>
> >True, being able to sleep is a relief, as well as WAKING UP can be. To you drug effects seem trivial, however, that isn’t the situation with everyone.
>
> Sure its not the situation with everyone. For people who have milder forms of depression, these folks havent yet experienced the severe breakdown in basic physiological bodily functions that severe depression causes. What psychiatry classifies as "somatic" complaints. For someone who hasnt yet experienced the real thing, SSRI side effects are bothersome.
>
> All I have to say about that is wait til you get nailed by the big one. Real melancholic SEVERE major depression. Or psychotic depression. Or manic depression. LOL hehehe Trust me, you wont care about "SSRI side effects" anymore. You will thank God just for the fact you have these drugs so you can sleep and not end up going crazy.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I’m sorry you put it that way too. It’s really sad because you know; people with “life stress” kill themselves everyday. Why do you think these people party so much, and drink too much alcohol? Why do you think they aren’t really depressed in the first place?
>
> A person with true depression...clinical depression wouldnt even be partying to begin with. Plenty of people with dysthymia or mild depression self medicate with booze and recreational drugs however.
>
> I found after I became clinically depressed my response to booze totally changed. I found out that I didnt get a beer buzz anymore and booze didnt make me feel loose and happy anymore. Booze just made me sadder, more depressed, cry more and made my insomnia MUCH worse.
>
> Many cases of "mild depression" and dysthymia are caused by or exacerbated by alcohol. And too often the person doesnt even realize its the booze causing their dysthymia. Cut out booze totally and see how your mood lifts if you have dysthymia.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
> > >
> >
> >
> > Your attitude regarding Psychiatry really concerns me. I’m amazed at your hatred toward the mental health field. What exactly do you consider ‘real mental illness’?
>
> Here is my personal definition of "real mental illness."
>
> 1) schizophrenia and all psychotic disorders
> 2) classic manic depression AKA bipolar type 1
> 3) major depression, especially the melancholia or psychotic depression subtypes
> 4) all of the anxiety disorders
>
> >I don’t know what a psychiatrist did to you to warrant such venom toward all psychiatrists, but it sure seems that way. I don’t have much patience either, and I’ve been through more than my share of bad things in life.
>
>
> >
> > Have your meds cured you? Are you now functioning, sleeping, eating normally, and being a normal person in society?
>
> Hell no. Im hanging out on psychobabble arent I? What do you think people who hang out here are like? Many of them are treatment resistant.
>
> >I’m not trying to be facetious, sarcastic and/or whatnot, I’m honestly curious as to how your meds have helped.
>
> As Ive already told you several times, meds dont work for me very good. Somewhat, enough to keep me afloat and alive but thats all. Im hardly in remission which is what Id like. Like I said, Id gladly trade some "SSRI side effects" for a drug that sent me into remission and kept me there. Antidepressant side effects are rather trivial to me.
>
> Old School
> >
> >
> > Kiddo
> >
> >
> > > Old School
Posted by rxcuriousity on February 11, 2002, at 22:44:18
In reply to Re: Sexual Side Effects SUCK (ok, bad choice of words), posted by petezz on February 11, 2002, at 21:43:04
Neither do I advocate the use of any illegal substances, but I too found "pot" to be extremely effective at temporarily relieving the sexual side effects (especially anorgasmia) of various antidepressants.
Posted by Denise528 on February 12, 2002, at 9:44:02
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
> >
> > I've got to say I totally agree with Old Schools views on Real Depression. I am not saying that I have cornered the market on "Real Depression" but if you have truly suffered with it then SSRI side effects are not an issue. I wish I was well enough to even care about whether or not I had a sex drive or whether I'd put a bit of weight on. It makes me angry when I read peoples complaints about these things. I'm not saying that these problems are insignificant but in comparison to real depression they are extremely trivial.I put a lot of weight on with Paxil but I was so grateful to be feel normal and alive again that the Weight gain wastn't an issue.
> >
> >
> >
> > Denise
> >
> >
> >
> >
Posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 10:15:32
In reply to Dry Mouth and Constipation, posted by IsoM on February 11, 2002, at 19:42:55
Hi IsoM,
you toughed it out though, until something else was available that could help you. I can understand switching if it's severe and once something potentially better comes along.
I read stories of people switching for benign reasons, sometimes not even waiting for a month or so, when side effects usually decrease, and I find it sad because meds are discarded that could help some people. I was tempted to stop after 2 days of Effexor XR, but I called my doc who reassured me that the worse side effects would go away. I continued and found out my body got used to it and adjusted. I still have problems (sleep and constipation), but I try to manage them because I can see the good that Effexor XR does to me.- sid
Posted by IsoM on February 12, 2002, at 11:58:17
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » IsoM, posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 10:15:32
I wonder if some of these people who stop are those who never waited long enough to see if it was effective, or others who perhaps waited a long time but had very little relief from their depression.
It's incredible the negative view some have about meds. They've been so brainwashed the other way that all meds are harmful & poison to our system. My 20 yr old son suffers from quite severe depression. He can function in the world but barely at times. He's thin to begin with & has lost 15 lb the last 3 weeks - I'm really worried about him but I can't force him to do anything. He HATES meds. so many different kinds have been tried on him with limited success & sometimes nasty side-effects. He was overjoyed when Celexa worked on him, but when it pooped out 2 months later, he wouldn't even bother trying to increase it. Urrggg! It did the same for me, but an increase made it work again & has for 2 years now.
I have no idea why some people are so adverse to taking meds!!! I've questioned him but he can't even explain to himself why, let alone me. When his depression lifts, he's reasonable & logical again. But how can I get it to lift if he refuses meds?
Posted by Ella on February 12, 2002, at 12:47:53
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » sid, posted by IsoM on February 12, 2002, at 11:58:17
I feel that it is usually depression when disrupive thoughts, feelings, andother symptoms of depression interrupt a persons life more than a "regular person's" problems would. And if a person is not truly depressed, they still have problems and could use the help of meds and therapy.
My depression is a milder long term one, I have not been hospitalized, but I know I have depression. I have been so lucky to not have to do much while depressed, if I would have had to I would have ended up in a hospital for sure.It is true that there are people out there that have more severe depression than I, but it has been the hardest thing to deal with in my life.
We all have major challenges as people and everyone's problems are inportent.
Ella Miatabamboo
Posted by Reneeb on February 12, 2002, at 16:41:50
In reply to Varying Depression, posted by Ella on February 12, 2002, at 12:47:53
Hi Guys, I can understand the frustration you must feel when you read the many complaints there are (I am one of them) about meds that make you gain weight, have sexual side effects, etc.,and think I would be estatic if thats the only things I had to worry about.
I took my Mother to the doctor for a regular check up, two days later she was diagnosed with a terminal form of luekemia and was told she probably would only have a year left. I was completely devasted, I could only imagine what my Mother felt. This was a woman who at 72yrs old , went on vacations by herself, golfed at least 3 times a week, went out dancing every weekend - I couldn't even keep up with her LOL. She started chemo right away. After that it was more chemo, blood transfusions monthly sometimes weekly, many hospital stays which would last for a month at a time. The doctors told us that the level of pain she was in (levels from one to ten), was a ten. It has been almost a year now and I have never heard one complaint or I have yet to see her feel sorry for herself. So, you could understand how I would feel when I'd hear someone complaining about something "I THOUGHT" had little significance and would say "You don't have a clue what pain and suffering really is."
I have learned thru my year of discovery that I needed to be more tolerant of others pain and suffering. No matter how trivial I think their problem might be compared to mine - they are just as devasted.
I can't imagine what it feels like to be so depressed that it takes everything you have just to get up in the morning. I only know that even though some of us couldn't possible understand the depth of suffering - doesn't mean that we are uncapable of giving support.
I would feel terrible if anyone that came to this site to find support and comfort was discouraged because after reading some of these threads are turned away because they feel that their problems weren't severe enough to warrant help.
Thanks for letting me vent,Renee
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 12, 2002, at 19:00:27
In reply to Re: Sexual Side Effects S***, posted by rxcuriousity on February 11, 2002, at 22:44:18
> Neither do I advocate the use of any illegal substances, but I too found "pot" to be extremely effective at temporarily relieving the sexual side effects (especially anorgasmia) of various antidepressants.
Wow! It worsened mine?!?!
Posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 19:21:06
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » sid, posted by IsoM on February 12, 2002, at 11:58:17
Refusing to take meds may be a symptom of the depression itself. I refused to take them for a long time (years), and I was told that.
He may feel like he has to make it on his own, that his depression is his fault and that meds woudl be a cope out (sp?). I'm not saying this is how he should feel here, but some people do feel that way. Try telling him that as long as he cannot justify his decision to you and especially to himself, depression is winning. If depression did not affect his thinking and moods, he'd think meds are a good idea.
I don't like meds myself. That's why I'm sticking to Effexor XR and I bear the side effects... The faster I get through this, the faster I may be med- and simultaneously depression-free. I had to have most symptoms of major depression lift before I saw things that way though... so I can understand him. I wish I'd taken meds sooner. Now however, I'm just glad I finally took them. They work on my dysthymia and that's a great feeling.
- sid
Posted by IsoM on February 13, 2002, at 12:58:04
In reply to Re: Varying Depression, posted by Reneeb on February 12, 2002, at 16:41:50
Renee, if it's been a year now since diagnoses & treatment began, is your Mom improving at all? Is it for a certainty terminal?
I love your attitude. We can't trivialise anyone's pain - we're not inside their head knowing what it feels like. Everyone experiences things differently. We're here for support, not to 'best' one another in degree of suffering.
I'm so sorry for you & your dear Mom. She sounds like a wonderful lady & she obviously did well in raising you for you to have such a caring personality.
Posted by IsoM on February 13, 2002, at 13:06:39
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » IsoM, posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 19:21:06
> > "...Try telling him that as long as he cannot justify his decision to you and especially to himself, depression is winning. If depression did not affect his thinking and moods, he'd think meds are a good idea."
That's a wonderful idea! Thanks - I will try it with slight modification to fit his reasoning.
I had a long visit with him yesterday. When I pointed out to him how much better he'd initially felt on Celexa, he couldn't even remember. I know from my experience & my other son's, that depression sure screws up your memory in a major way! Our vist which started off terrible (he didn't want to see ANYONE) ended up close & sweet. I love him with all my heart. He's the sort of person people automatically love. He exudes some sort of charisma, warmth, & empathy for others that draws people to him. I wish with all my heart, he was feeling better.
I know his father (my ex-) screwed up his mind so much. My son feels duty-bound to visit him & help him out financially but has no love or respect for him (he's come out bluntly & told me). I feel like he's a leech, draining my son but it's my son's decision & I won't involve myself as I hardly think I'm objective about it all.
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