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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
I believe my prob is ADD + depression
Doc thinks it is BP
I've tried every AD in the booknow I'm willing to try something different!
Posted by MB on January 23, 2002, at 8:46:30
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
There are some ADD tests you could take. There's the tova (forget what it stands for) and the continual performance test. I've taken both, they are taken on computers. There is controversy surrounding the accuracy of such tests. When you say BP, you mean Borderline Personality or Bipolar? I don't know about Borderline, but I think amphetamine can actualy induce mania...maybe a no no for bipolar...
Posted by Raga on January 23, 2002, at 9:33:27
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
Why not first try the antidepressants used for ADD such as desipramine or Wellbutrin. If you are ADD, I bet you'd get some kind of positive response from these drugs. And the bonus is that they could help your depression at the same time. Another bonus is that they are long-lasting unlike the stimulants.
Posted by cmcdougall on January 23, 2002, at 9:38:56
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
Any of the stimulants like ritalin, adderall, and dexedrine are rigidly controlled. I think they are classified as Sch.II - in my state you need a special triplicate prescription form. I don't believe you can order any of these online, although there are plenty of websites advertising that. They are willing to scam you out of $50 or $100 for a list of foreign pharmacies, none of which will sell you powerful stimulants OR opiates. There are plenty of sites where you can order Adrafinil, a milder stim, although I am not advocating that anyone should self-prescribe or import drugs into this country illegally.
Good luck
> Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> Doc thinks it is BP
> I've tried every AD in the book
>
> now I'm willing to try something different!
Posted by ben on January 23, 2002, at 10:22:36
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
> Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> Doc thinks it is BP
> I've tried every AD in the book
>
> now I'm willing to try something different!
Thats a shame ! Treatment resistance could be avoided (in some cases) by adding a stimulant. Fatigue and apathy are often more persisting than the bad mood in depression. Your pdoc should give you a carefully (small doses) try to Ritalin.
Edronax (Reboxetine) was more stimulating (for me) than Ritalin ! This could be a good option if side effects are tolerable (not for me).
Posted by fachad on January 23, 2002, at 13:01:02
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
You are in a rough spot.
Ask your pdoc why he doesn't want to let you do a trial of a stimulant.
Do you have any history of substance abuse?
How long have you been seeing this pdoc?
How many (non-stimulant) meds have you tried?
I would strongly caution you against trying to get stimulants thru any other channels than a regular script from your regular pdoc filled at your regular pharmacy.
Not only is it illegal, but more importantly, it will raise a "red flag" that you are a potential substance abuser, and that will make it near impossible for you to get any controlled prescriptions in the future, even if you would really benefit from them.
Don't give them any reason to be suspicious of you.
If you think you would really benefit from stimulant meds, the best thing for you to do is work with your doctor, build trust over time, and do not do anything (like ordering from overseas or buying on the street) that would violate the trust between you and your doctor.
Be open with your doctor, and ask why he is hesitant. If you are not comfortable with your pdoc, you should find a different one.
But beware that people who would abuse these medications "doctor shop" and you don't want to do that either. If you do need to look for a new pdoc, look for someone you feel comfortable with, someone that you trust, not just for someone who is quick with the pen.
Sorry to ramble so long, but this is a very tender subject with me as I am helped very much by stimulansts and am always afraid of finding myself in your situation, even though I've been taking them for almost 7 years with no problems.
I really hate the whole controlled substance issue, but it's a reality. The best thing you can do is develop trust and demonstrate stabiltiy and responsibility.
Best of luck to you.
> Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> Doc thinks it is BP
> I've tried every AD in the book
>
> now I'm willing to try something different!
Posted by IsoM on January 23, 2002, at 14:49:31
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
Why not give adrafinil (Olmifon) or modafinil (Provigil) a try? You can order them legally from overseas & they're a much gentler stimulant than either Dexedrine/Adderal or Ritalin.
Even though they're gentler, I find them much more effective in controlling my depression/ADHD/narcolepsy than the regular stims. And the effects are constant - no ups or downs as the med kicks in & then wears off. For me, regular stims are a poor second choice & I never would've believed anyone telling me that before I tried adrafinil!
> Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> Doc thinks it is BP
> I've tried every AD in the book
>
> now I'm willing to try something different!
Posted by Elizabeth on January 23, 2002, at 15:35:54
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
What mood stabilizers have you tried? I think that your best chance is to go along with what your doctor wants you to do before asking for other things.
Bipolar is a fad diagnosis these days, while ADD is less popular (maybe owing in part to protest by people who think that children should never take psychiatric medication).
Finally, doctors generally don't like prescribing controlled substances, especially amphetamines (which are Schedule II controlled substances -- the same as morphine). If you think this is a factor in your pdoc's reluctance to prescribe amphetamine, consider asking for a less-controlled stimulant, such as Cylert, Provigil, or phentermine (which are all C-IV). I agree with fachad's remarks concerning the building and maintaining of trust.
I'm skeptical about the use of antidepressants for ADD; I don't think they are very effective compared to psychostimulants. If you are depressed too, though, they might be your first-choice ADs.
Best of luck to you.
-elizabeth
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 23, 2002, at 21:59:20
In reply to Re: Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines. » zarathustra, posted by Elizabeth on January 23, 2002, at 15:35:54
These days the launch of any new Rx product with a good marketing budget will create a fad diagnosis.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 24, 2002, at 13:09:27
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
Didrex (benzphetamine) is available to purchase legally online for weight loss & is about as close as you are going to get to dex or adderall. You have to complete an "online consultation form" and then a us physician legally dispenses a prescription & up to 3 months of Didrex for about $200.
I wouldn't order Adrafinil from the quasi-legal overseas pharmacies. I bought some & it didn't do much of anything.
Didrex is legal w/ an online prescription except in about 5 states (The US websites list the states they cannot legally ship to).
Didrex is a schedule III "cns agent; respiratory & cerebral stimulant; anorexiant", "indirect acting sympathomimetic amine w/ amphetamine-like actions but w/ fewer side effects than amphetamine. Anorexiant effect thought to be secondary to stimulation of hypothalmus to release stored catcholamines in the CNS."I haven't tried any yet but was planning on ordering some for my ADD/attentional problems. Let me know how it turns out.
Also, Ritalin works very well (better for 'focus' than the amphetamines) if you doctor is willing to order it, & they just came out with a much improved version of Ritalin called Focalin which is twice as strong in mental stimulation with less jittery side effects. Focalin is only the d isomer of methylphenidate kind of like how dexedrine is the d isomer of amphetmine, & supposedly 10 mg Focalin (the highest dose available)= 20 mg of Ritalin.Cheers,
3 Beers
> Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> Doc thinks it is BP
> I've tried every AD in the book
>
> now I'm willing to try something different!
Posted by nightlight on January 24, 2002, at 17:01:48
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
> Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> Doc thinks it is BP
> I've tried every AD in the book
>
> now I'm willing to try something different!Zara~
What has convinced you that ADD is pronbably a more correct diagnosis? I wd. suggest getting a second opinion, preferably from a p-doc with extensive experience w/ADD and the diagnosing of it in adults.
I, too, tried many a-d's due to being diagnosed with simple depression: prozac, zoloft, celexa, desipramine, nortryptilline, elavil, remeron, trazadone, wellbutrin XR (3 x's) and effexor. I was always tired, needing a nap, sluggish, & foggy-headed--for 30 years, no less!
I tried a diet drug, phentermine, 5 yrs. ago, when I went to a diet clinic after having a baby. I felt awake and motivated, logical, and capable of finishing tasks for the first time in yrs! I knew I had lots of mental resources, but w/o medication, my own logic and creativity seemed to be inaccessable to me. And figuring out simple problems or planning an organization routine seemed almost impossible. Just taking care of my small family and working part-time, drained me of all my 'brain' reserve.
I went thru 4 p-docs, before I found a therapist who really listened to me. He asked me if any drug had ever had a positive effect, and I cautiosly mentioned the diet pill which had helped. After 2 long, in-depth conversations, he suggested trying a stimulent, referred me to the psychiatrist upstairs, who reviewed my case,we chatted a while and he started me on Adderall 5-10 mgs.+ zoloft, for depression. He felt the Adderall might boost the zoloft.
I was soon on ioo mgs zoloft and 20mgs twice a day of adderall. The Zoloft did not help, I was good in the mornings, but exhausted by 2 pm even w/the 2nd dose of Adderall and a nap.
We then started effexor 37.5, then up to 75 mgs a day. He increased Add. to 30mgs in am and 30 at noon plus another 30 if needed in the mornings. After 4 months, I am now at 112.5 Effexor (I think it does help a bit w/mood and we'll probably continue to slowly titrate upward)+ I'm now allowed up to 120 mgs Adderall a day, if needed, and not more than 60 mgs at one dosage.
I am also a chronic pain person and take a muscle relaxer, 2mgs. klonopin and a mild presciption pain reliever, as needed. I try to keep these meds at low dose, but they are necessary and may be why 120 ms. daily of Adderall does not keep me jittery or sleep-deprived.
SOOOO, keep trying! Find an ADD-savvy p-doc and let him/her evaluate you. You are obviously not on the proper meds.
Good luck!
nightlight
Posted by manowar on January 24, 2002, at 17:38:47
In reply to Didrex (benzphetamine) is avail. legally online , posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 24, 2002, at 13:09:27
Hate to say this 3 beer effect, but Didrex is a poor substitute to pstims.
From personal experience I've found that Didrex may increase cognitive functioning for a few days, but soon the effects wear off. Didrex is a "dirty" drug in that it not only works as a poor pstim (I don't even think it's classified as a psychostimulant), but it also can affect the cardio system. It does work well to help someone to lose weight, though. The problem is that like any other stim, the weight loss effect doesn't normally last for long.
What I would suggest is that Zarathustra (BTW: cool name--African?, Jamaican?) try to find a doctor that specializes in ADHD. You could call a pediatrician’s office to get the name of a doctor that specializes in juvenile ADD and then call that office and try to get the name of a doctor that specializes in adult ADD. A doctor that specializes in adult ADD will also be experienced in helping people with depression.
I had the same problem that Zarathustra had. Interestingly, I went to a weight loss clinic and started taking Didrex about a year and a half ago. I noticed that the drug sharpened my cognitive abilities and helped to lift me out of despair. Unfortunately, the effect didn’t last long. But I thought that by adding a pstim to my AD could help my depression. My wimpy pdocs refused to even consider using a pstim to augment my ADs, until I had SPECT scans done which without a doubt proved that I had ADD. Most (but not all by any means) pdocs are wimps that refuse to try a pstim as an augmenting agent because it's a schedule 3 drug. Find a doctor that cares. As you know, ADD and depression many times go hand in hand, and for one condition to be treated, both need to be treated.
I currently use a physician that specializes in adult ADD, and have no problem getting the meds I need.
Good luck and God bless,
Tim> Didrex (benzphetamine) is available to purchase legally online for weight loss & is about as close as you are going to get to dex or adderall. You have to complete an "online consultation form" and then a us physician legally dispenses a prescription & up to 3 months of Didrex for about $200.
>
> I wouldn't order Adrafinil from the quasi-legal overseas pharmacies. I bought some & it didn't do much of anything.
>
> Didrex is legal w/ an online prescription except in about 5 states (The US websites list the states they cannot legally ship to).
>
> Didrex is a schedule III "cns agent; respiratory & cerebral stimulant; anorexiant", "indirect acting sympathomimetic amine w/ amphetamine-like actions but w/ fewer side effects than amphetamine. Anorexiant effect thought to be secondary to stimulation of hypothalmus to release stored catcholamines in the CNS."
>
> I haven't tried any yet but was planning on ordering some for my ADD/attentional problems. Let me know how it turns out.
> Also, Ritalin works very well (better for 'focus' than the amphetamines) if you doctor is willing to order it, & they just came out with a much improved version of Ritalin called Focalin which is twice as strong in mental stimulation with less jittery side effects. Focalin is only the d isomer of methylphenidate kind of like how dexedrine is the d isomer of amphetmine, & supposedly 10 mg Focalin (the highest dose available)= 20 mg of Ritalin.
>
> Cheers,
> 3 Beers
>
>
> > Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> > I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> > Doc thinks it is BP
> > I've tried every AD in the book
> >
> > now I'm willing to try something different!
Posted by JohnX2 on January 24, 2002, at 17:39:45
In reply to Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines., posted by zarathustra on January 23, 2002, at 1:06:07
It sounds like you are in the classic
scenario that I was in. If every AD med
does not include any mood stablizer than odds
are that your doctor is correct and you are
confusing your ADD symptoms with hypomania.A good med for unipolar depresson that also treats
bipolar is Lamictal for starters. Have you tried
this one? Putting a stimulant in the hands
of a bipolar patient would be a disaster.Could you please supply us with a list of ADs
you tried and your responses? Did you have shorted
lived responses that petered out on any of them?What are your "ADD" symptoms?
I barked up the ADD + depression tree for a long
time before I was correctly diagnosed as bipolar II.
Bipolar II is tricky to diagnose. I might take
a med that could treat either like Lamictal.-John
> Does anyone know a way to go about getting dexadrine or aderral via perscription or 'otherwise'? I am quite curious after extensive research if I will respond as I predict.
> I believe my prob is ADD + depression
> Doc thinks it is BP
> I've tried every AD in the book
>
> now I'm willing to try something different!
Posted by Elizabeth on January 25, 2002, at 1:34:48
In reply to Re: Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines. » Elizabeth, posted by Mr. Scott on January 23, 2002, at 21:59:20
> These days the launch of any new Rx product with a good marketing budget will create a fad diagnosis.
I think it's all these new anticonvulsants -- not just Depakote, but also Lamictal, Neurontin, Topamax, etc. It's interesting to note that many of these new AEDs are approved only for "adjunctive therapy" of epilepsy, not for monotherapy. It appears that the manufacturers just wanted to get them on the market and then see what doctors would prescribe them for.
There's also the realization by doctors that "borderline personality disorder" is in fact responsive to medications -- it makes them want to redefine it as bipolar II.
-elizabeth
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 20:27:36
In reply to Re: Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines. » Mr. Scott, posted by Elizabeth on January 25, 2002, at 1:34:48
Let me just say my job allows me to fully understand what goes into Rx marketing. Some of the anticonvulsants you mentioned one in particular is more geared towards "disseminating off label information" than advertising. It takes a lot of money to get the word out to the appropriate people..
Scott
Posted by Ritch on January 26, 2002, at 0:17:57
In reply to Re: Psychiatrist won't let me try amphetamines. » Mr. Scott, posted by Elizabeth on January 25, 2002, at 1:34:48
> > These days the launch of any new Rx product with a good marketing budget will create a fad diagnosis.
>
> I think it's all these new anticonvulsants -- not just Depakote, but also Lamictal, Neurontin, Topamax, etc. It's interesting to note that many of these new AEDs are approved only for "adjunctive therapy" of epilepsy, not for monotherapy. It appears that the manufacturers just wanted to get them on the market and then see what doctors would prescribe them for.
>
> There's also the realization by doctors that "borderline personality disorder" is in fact responsive to medications -- it makes them want to redefine it as bipolar II.
>
> -elizabeth
Elizabeth-Mr. Scott,What about the idea of "fad new diagnoses" creating *new Rx products*??
You are correct (one-dimensionally) about the *new* anticonvulsants. Pdocs have been looking for a lithium alternative for years and now they have an entire menagerie to explore.
The *monotherapy* thing has mostly to do with *cost*. It is far cheaper to develop and get approval for an adjunctive medication for epilepsy than it is to get it run through the "hoops" for epilepsy monotherapy by the FDA. They are just now doing monotherapy trials for gabapentin when it is close to becoming available as a generic.
Mitch
This is the end of the thread.
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