![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by MB on January 13, 2002, at 20:31:45
In reply to Same here, posted by Mr. Scott on January 13, 2002, at 14:52:22
> I too have had the EXACT same experience as you three have with no longer being able tolerate any meds, and now having to go it without them. Sometimes I think it has happened for a reason, like someone wants me to take a different approach. Meds used to be like candy to me.. It must be either the liver or the brain chemistry.
>
> Scott
When I first took Prozac ten years ago, it was like a sugar pill...no side effects at all. I quit a few years later, though when I realized constant muscle tension in my back was pulling my bones out of alignment and sending me into physical therapy (so, I guess there *were* long term effects even then). Now, I'm back trying Prozac and I can barely tolorate it. I feel poisoned and agitated and gross. You kow, they say that, statistically, the people that start switching meds have a lower recovery rate. I always just figured that that meant the drugs either worked the first time or they didn't work at all...but now that I think about it, I wonder if the impact that switching meds has on ther brain makes the psychiatric problem more intractable. < sigh** >MB
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 13, 2002, at 20:55:00
In reply to Re: Same here » Mr. Scott, posted by MB on January 13, 2002, at 20:31:45
Lord I hope that is just another excuse docs and pharma companies came up with to blame patients for the lack of effectiveness of their pills and treatments. Even then the fault lies with the pill, I never came off a drug that didn't cause something to go wrong, otherwise I would have swallowed it for life. I thought for sure Prozac was going to be just another vitamin for me..Then it stopped working and I still took it religiously, until some zealot bitch of a shrink switched me to Zoloft. That was a bad move. In general I think Prozac is easier to tolerate than any of the others, and now I too can't tolerate it. I feel like I want to sleep for eternity on it.
Scott
Posted by MB on January 13, 2002, at 23:31:45
In reply to Re: Same here » MB, posted by Mr. Scott on January 13, 2002, at 20:55:00
> Lord I hope that is just another excuse docs and pharma companies came up with to blame patients for the lack of effectiveness of their pills and treatments. Even then the fault lies with the pill, I never came off a drug that didn't cause something to go wrong, otherwise I would have swallowed it for life. I thought for sure Prozac was going to be just another vitamin for me..Then it stopped working and I still took it religiously, until some zealot bitch of a shrink switched me to Zoloft. That was a bad move. In general I think Prozac is easier to tolerate than any of the others, and now I too can't tolerate it. I feel like I want to sleep for eternity on it.
>
> Scott
Really? Sleep? I feel like I want to rip my legs off and beat people with them...I'm so agitated and restless (mainly in the legs). Anxiety, burning sensation in neck muscles and in spine, sweating and seeing stars when I stand up are also some of the nice things I'm experiencing. This stuff happened on Paxil too, but went away. I hope it goes away with Prozac also.MB
Posted by bob on January 14, 2002, at 0:40:01
In reply to Re: Same here » Mr. Scott, posted by MB on January 13, 2002, at 23:31:45
Ohhhhhhhh how I hate these meds. I hate living with them, and I can't mentally survive without them.
Posted by cindylou on January 14, 2002, at 6:19:45
In reply to all these posts hit home » MB, posted by bob on January 14, 2002, at 0:40:01
What do we do? Is it of some comfort to know we're not alone in this? (It is for me). Perhaps we can help each other out by keeping each other "posted" through this board of our trials, our pdoc appointments, etc.
I am with you, bob, about being scared to get off these meds, but feeling there's no other way. I have also tried getting off of them a few times in the past, but the depression and OCD-type symptoms always come back with a vengence. I find myself thinking that maybe I should try life again without the meds ... maybe I can do it this time ... maybe with therapy ...
But if in fact it IS a chemical imbalance (as I've been told throughout the years), then all the therapy in the world can't cure that ...
... can it?
Can chemical imbalances in the brain that cause depression actually be reversed through cognitive and behavioral changes?
Another thought I have is getting off my current combo (Lamictal + Serzone) which is causing the old familiar AD side effects (foggy-headedness, exhaustion, inability to focus, etc.) and trying Prozac again, only this time at intervals of one week on, one week off -- or one month on, one month off -- to prevent the Prozac crash I get after two months. (that's happened three times to me throughout the years.)
Sorry to ramble. Any thoughts, comments, etc are appreciated!
cindy
> Ohhhhhhhh how I hate these meds. I hate living with them, and I can't mentally survive without them.
Posted by rjk on January 14, 2002, at 9:24:12
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ? » rjk, posted by cindylou on January 13, 2002, at 12:14:10
Hi Cindylou,
Since combining Effexor and Remeron, I cannot tolerate any medication. I have had extreme reactions to the slightest amount of medication and headache type side effects that have lasted for weeks after discontinuing it.
> What type of adverse effects have you had? I've been on and off ADs (but mostly on) for about 13 years. What I have noticed over the past two years is that I am unable to tolerate meds now. I have very bad side effects, and I don't seem to be helped much at all by the meds.
>
> I don't know if the years on the meds have somehow altered my body chemistry to the point where the meds don't work as they should, or if it's due to some kind of hormonal change since having my baby 2 years ago.
>
> Interesting question.
> cindy
>
> > Since combining Effexor and Remeron, I have had severe long term adverse effects from antidepressants. Is it just me,or have other people had long term problems with them?
Posted by rjk on January 14, 2002, at 9:32:54
In reply to Re: all these posts hit home -bob, mr. scott, posted by cindylou on January 14, 2002, at 6:19:45
Well,
At least I am not alone.
There is however no doubt that combining Effexor and Remeron was an absolute killer for me. I am off the meds now because I simply dare not take any due to the severe reactions that I now have to them. My psychiatrist is now sending me to see a professor because of the reactions that I have had since combining Effexor and Remeron.
I am convinced that for at least the past two years I have been taking A/Ds in response to symptoms created by the A/D that I had previously taken.
My advice to anyone would be to throw your A/Ds down the toilet before your head is as f***ed up as mine.
> What do we do? Is it of some comfort to know we're not alone in this? (It is for me). Perhaps we can help each other out by keeping each other "posted" through this board of our trials, our pdoc appointments, etc.
>
> I am with you, bob, about being scared to get off these meds, but feeling there's no other way. I have also tried getting off of them a few times in the past, but the depression and OCD-type symptoms always come back with a vengence. I find myself thinking that maybe I should try life again without the meds ... maybe I can do it this time ... maybe with therapy ...
>
> But if in fact it IS a chemical imbalance (as I've been told throughout the years), then all the therapy in the world can't cure that ...
>
> ... can it?
>
> Can chemical imbalances in the brain that cause depression actually be reversed through cognitive and behavioral changes?
>
> Another thought I have is getting off my current combo (Lamictal + Serzone) which is causing the old familiar AD side effects (foggy-headedness, exhaustion, inability to focus, etc.) and trying Prozac again, only this time at intervals of one week on, one week off -- or one month on, one month off -- to prevent the Prozac crash I get after two months. (that's happened three times to me throughout the years.)
>
> Sorry to ramble. Any thoughts, comments, etc are appreciated!
>
> cindy
>
>
>
> > Ohhhhhhhh how I hate these meds. I hate living with them, and I can't mentally survive without them.
Posted by rjk on January 14, 2002, at 9:36:01
In reply to Re: Same here » Mr. Scott, posted by MB on January 13, 2002, at 20:31:45
Sorry MB, I missed your name off my follow up to Mr Scott, Bob, and Cindylou. No offence meant!
> > I too have had the EXACT same experience as you three have with no longer being able tolerate any meds, and now having to go it without them. Sometimes I think it has happened for a reason, like someone wants me to take a different approach. Meds used to be like candy to me.. It must be either the liver or the brain chemistry.
> >
> > Scott
>
>
> When I first took Prozac ten years ago, it was like a sugar pill...no side effects at all. I quit a few years later, though when I realized constant muscle tension in my back was pulling my bones out of alignment and sending me into physical therapy (so, I guess there *were* long term effects even then). Now, I'm back trying Prozac and I can barely tolorate it. I feel poisoned and agitated and gross. You kow, they say that, statistically, the people that start switching meds have a lower recovery rate. I always just figured that that meant the drugs either worked the first time or they didn't work at all...but now that I think about it, I wonder if the impact that switching meds has on ther brain makes the psychiatric problem more intractable. < sigh** >
>
> MB
Posted by Mitch on January 14, 2002, at 9:47:48
In reply to Re: all these posts hit home -bob, mr. scott, posted by cindylou on January 14, 2002, at 6:19:45
> Another thought I have is getting off my current combo (Lamictal + Serzone) which is causing the old familiar AD side effects (foggy-headedness, exhaustion, inability to focus, etc.) and trying Prozac again, only this time at intervals of one week on, one week off -- or one month on, one month off -- to prevent the Prozac crash I get after two months. (that's happened three times to me throughout the years.)
>
> Sorry to ramble. Any thoughts, comments, etc are appreciated!
>
> cindyI have erosive esophagitis from years of taking SSRi's. Well, I might have had it anyway-heartburn probs do run in my family, but SSri's literally "french-fry" my GI tract. I am down to 2.5mg of Celexa every other day. Any more and I am taking Pepcid, etc, all day.
Mitch
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 14, 2002, at 12:15:14
In reply to Re: Same here » Mr. Scott, posted by MB on January 13, 2002, at 23:31:45
Well, the first go around with Prozac was like that but it's been so long I forgot and I just forced myself to sit it out, because I remember reading to expect severe anxiety and agitation, but that it would go away. The body did eventually adjust to it
Scott
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 14, 2002, at 12:20:46
In reply to Re: all these posts hit home -bob, mr. scott, posted by cindylou on January 14, 2002, at 6:19:45
I think yes to some extent we can rearrange our lives in such a way that we can still flourish, and yet not require these pills, or at least less of them, or different ones. It must be so, these drugs are new, and our problems are old. As for keeping eachother updated and posted, I'm all for it. Several heads are better than one (even if there a little off)!
Scott
Posted by Simcha on January 14, 2002, at 12:34:32
In reply to Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ?, posted by rjk on January 13, 2002, at 9:31:03
Crap!
Are all of you people telling me that now that I am stabilized on meds that they will mess me up eventually? I don't want to hear it.
Without the meds I don't have much of a life. With the meds I have a life. Hmmmm. I think I'll choose the meds.
> Since combining Effexor and Remeron, I have had severe long term adverse effects from antidepressants. Is it just me,or have other people had long term problems with them?
Posted by IsoM on January 14, 2002, at 12:48:43
In reply to Re: all these posts hit home -bob, mr. scott, posted by cindylou on January 14, 2002, at 6:19:45
< < "Can chemical imbalances in the brain that cause depression actually be reversed through cognitive and behavioral changes?"
Cindy, for the original posts about ADs losing their effectiveness, I have nothing of value to offer, but there is somewhat of an answer to your question above.
People sometimes forget that a person, as a whole, is an intricately woven whole composed of many physical chemical systems (endocrine, immune, neural, etc) reacting to our environment. You can't separate one system from the other & study how it works without realising that one always affects the others. And the more scientists learn about the body, the more we learn how much each system affects the other.
We were MEANT to react & adapt to our environment. One of the most obvious examples of our environment affecting our body as a whole is what we remove from our environment & put into our body as food. We need to eat to survive & we need to eat healthy to thrive. (No, this isn't a thread about nutrition - just an example.)
Our environment can influence how we feel both physically & mentally/emotionally. That's why psychologists will expose someone to a phobia or fear, bit by bit & by conditioning them, have it change their reactions. It's completely an outside influence - no drugs, but brain images by PET scans does show actual physical changes in the brain.
It's one reason I'm a firm believer in tackling depression from all angles. If after a med is found to work, I believe it's crucial to make sure that one has a good healthy diet & active, healthy life-style. I also believe that in most cases, the patient can benefit by therapy of some sort to restructure their thought patterns. Depression 'teaches' us to think in a certain negative way & too often, a person continues to act & react the same way. Most people need help to see how they think & why it needs changing.
I also believe we need to fill our hearts & minds with a purpose once we feel better. I think of it as the spiritual side of a person, whatever someone else may call it. I don't mean a single-minded driven goal but something that's 'spiritually' healthy just like healthy life-style & healthy thinking patterns.
Again, just my two cents worth.
Posted by Mitch on January 14, 2002, at 13:24:24
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ?, posted by Simcha on January 14, 2002, at 12:34:32
> Crap!
>
> Are all of you people telling me that now that I am stabilized on meds that they will mess me up eventually? I don't want to hear it.
>
> Without the meds I don't have much of a life. With the meds I have a life. Hmmmm. I think I'll choose the meds.Simcha,
I think a lot of what you are hearing are people who are probably more "treatment intolerant" rather than "treatment resistant". Obviously if your meds are working for you and you are tolerating them then you should continue taking them (IMO). I am personally not trying to fool myself into thinking that I can somehow be "med-free". I know better than that! I have problems with antidepressants primarily because I have bipolar disorder. I just think there is more than just a little bit of a coincidence that I have trouble tolerating them physically as well as mentally.
Mitch
Posted by cindylou on January 14, 2002, at 13:29:04
In reply to Sustaining any improvements » cindylou, posted by IsoM on January 14, 2002, at 12:48:43
> Again, just my two cents worth.
And a great two cents it was! Thanks, IsoM.
You know, I just started seeing a new therapist a couple months ago. I have seen several throughout the past 15 years or so, and gave up on them entirely for awhile. Therapists are kind of like meds -- some are great, some make you feel worse, some help at first but it doesn't last, and ... just maybe ... there's that one who can really make a lasting difference.
I think I may have found that therapist. It's wild ... sometimes I'll leave her office and feel so much better it's like I had a hefty dose of Prozac with no side effects. That feeling will last a few days -- energy, motivation, etc. -- and then I'll kind of spiral down until I see her again.
Hopefully I can get to the point where I can sustain that mentally healthy feeling on my own.
She has a lot of very similar beliefs as you -- about the body being a whole, and every system affecting every other system. She stresses the importance of healthiness and wholeness in all areas of life, including spiritual.
Rambling again. But thanks again for your always insightful two cents!
cindy
Posted by Simcha on January 14, 2002, at 13:34:59
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ? » Simcha, posted by Mitch on January 14, 2002, at 13:24:24
> Simcha,
>
> I think a lot of what you are hearing are people who are probably more "treatment intolerant" rather than "treatment resistant". Obviously if your meds are working for you and you are tolerating them then you should continue taking them (IMO). I am personally not trying to fool myself into thinking that I can somehow be "med-free". I know better than that! I have problems with antidepressants primarily because I have bipolar disorder. I just think there is more than just a little bit of a coincidence that I have trouble tolerating them physically as well as mentally.
>
> Mitch
Mitch,I hope I did not come across as disagreeable. I just want to believe that the mix of meds I'm on will be what I need for a good long time. I really do not want to have to go through more med changes. I don't want any long-term side effects.
My pdoc warned me that the meds are no cure and that if I decide to take myself off of them more than likely I'd relapse. Usually for someone like me who has had 4+ major depressive episodes in only 32 years (and each one gets worse) the illness gets more difficult to treat if untreated.
When I read about these threads where all of you talk about nasty long-term side effects I get all creeped-out because I don't see that there is much of a choice for me. OK there is a choice not to take the meds but that would be choosing unbearable depression, sexual OCD, and anxiety. That's not much of a choice.
Damn, it kind of makes me angry that I cannot live a balanced life without depending on some outside substance. OK though at least there is something that works and I'm on it. I need to be grateful that this is my only serious health burden there are others who have it worse. And there are those who are treatment resistant.
OYE!
Posted by MB on January 14, 2002, at 16:25:44
In reply to Re: Same here, posted by rjk on January 14, 2002, at 9:36:01
> Sorry MB, I missed your name off my follow up to Mr Scott, Bob, and Cindylou. No offence meant!
That's OK, my mind is racing so fast that when I saw the "Mr" I thought it said "MB" so I didn't even think I was left out! heh heh heh
Posted by MB on January 14, 2002, at 16:32:19
In reply to Re: Same here » MB, posted by Mr. Scott on January 14, 2002, at 12:15:14
> Well, the first go around with Prozac was like that but it's been so long I forgot and I just forced myself to sit it out, because I remember reading to expect severe anxiety and agitation, but that it would go away. The body did eventually adjust to it
>
> Scott
Well, I didn't take my dose this morning. I feel a little better. I might need to take a few days off just to calm down a little before starting back up again. It's good to be reminded that the anxiety and restlessness get better. I tried to take Neurontin to mitigate the Prozac symptoms. It helped *slightly* with the anxiety, but made the resslessness worse...like Restless Leg Syndrome throughout the whole body. Hard to sleep at night...tired all day, etc. I just need a couple day break to let my blood levels go down a bit.MB
Posted by MB on January 14, 2002, at 16:34:52
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ?, posted by Simcha on January 14, 2002, at 12:34:32
> Crap!
>
> Are all of you people telling me that now that I am stabilized on meds that they will mess me up eventually? I don't want to hear it.
>
> Without the meds I don't have much of a life. With the meds I have a life. Hmmmm. I think I'll choose the meds.
>
> > Since combining Effexor and Remeron, I have had severe long term adverse effects from antidepressants. Is it just me,or have other people had long term problems with them?
No, I think what we're saying is that you're very lucky to be stable...don't change anything. Stick to what's working for you, because if you change a bunch of stuff experimentally, then go back to what's working now, it may not work later.MB
Posted by rjk on January 14, 2002, at 16:42:24
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ? » Simcha, posted by MB on January 14, 2002, at 16:34:52
> > Crap!
> >
> > Are all of you people telling me that now that I am stabilized on meds that they will mess me up eventually? I don't want to hear it.
> >
> > Without the meds I don't have much of a life. With the meds I have a life. Hmmmm. I think I'll choose the meds.
> >
> > > Since combining Effexor and Remeron, I have had severe long term adverse effects from antidepressants. Is it just me,or have other people had long term problems with them?
>
>
> No, I think what we're saying is that you're very lucky to be stable...don't change anything. Stick to what's working for you, because if you change a bunch of stuff experimentally, then go back to what's working now, it may not work later.
>
> MBI'll second that.
Two years ago I told my psych that I was coping and doing okay, but not 100%. He said "oh, we can do better than that". Famous last words! I have not been as good as I was then since!
RJK
Posted by sid on January 14, 2002, at 17:01:55
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ? » Simcha, posted by MB on January 14, 2002, at 16:34:52
You guys are scaring me. I was so reluctant to take ADs, and reading this I almost don't want to continue. I hope I don't have to take them forever, I hope it's a one year+ treatment that'll leave me functioning relatively normally. But I may be wrong hoping so much, I don't know. Seeing my doc tomorrow, will have a long talk !
Posted by bob on January 14, 2002, at 17:15:18
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ?, posted by sid on January 14, 2002, at 17:01:55
Everybody... and I mean EVERYBODY, is different. There is no particular reason to think that just because another individual has trouble with a certain antidepressant(s), that you will have the same experience. Peoples' conditions are unique, as well as their responses to meds.
The only advice I might give is that if you are living a reasonably functional life without meds, than try to keep that up. You will know if you really need to try meds - your life will become significantly impaired. If that is the state you are in currently, then maybe it's time.
Posted by IsoM on January 14, 2002, at 17:17:17
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ?, posted by sid on January 14, 2002, at 17:01:55
Sid, don't be scared. You're probobably hearing the more negative posts as the positive ones, the ones that ADs work nicely for, aren't generally the people who seek out these forums.
I've stopped some ADs in the past or switched, not so much because they weren't effective, as because I didn't like the side-effects. I've been stable on Paxil before but wanted off it due to withdrawal/discontinuation symptoms if I was late for a dose. I'm on Celexa now & have been stable on it for well over a year. Only Luvox actually 'pooped out' for me.
I have other friends who most people wouldn't realise have taken ADs. In talking with them, many have taken them for 6 months or more, but were able to discontinue them afterwards successfully & continue normally. We just rarely hear about the positive stories as they get on with their life without mentioning meds to most people.
**************************************************************************************************
> You guys are scaring me. I was so reluctant to take ADs, and reading this I almost don't want to continue. I hope I don't have to take them forever, I hope it's a one year+ treatment that'll leave me functioning relatively normally. But I may be wrong hoping so much, I don't know. Seeing my doc tomorrow, will have a long talk !
Posted by sid on January 14, 2002, at 17:52:00
In reply to Don't Be Frightened of Effects from A/Ds ? » sid, posted by IsoM on January 14, 2002, at 17:17:17
Thanks so much, your message really helps. I have put so many efforts into this before (CBT, acupuncture, changing lifestyle) that I need to hold on to the hope right now. I am generally in a good mood these days, but I am still having trouble moving forward, making decisions and living instead of just thinking about. My new-found anxiety may be the cause, more than depression, which I think has been resolved, except perhaps for dysthymia. I was recently diagnosed with abnormal anxiety, and I never suspected a thing before - we're all like that in my family.
Anyway, I will cross my fingers... and I hope that everyone find a way out of their mental problems. It makes life much tougher. And I hope that R&D makes it easier to heal from mental illmesses in the future. We are still very much in the dark, I find.
- Sid
> Sid, don't be scared. You're probobably hearing the more negative posts as the positive ones, the ones that ADs work nicely for, aren't generally the people who seek out these forums.
>
> I've stopped some ADs in the past or switched, not so much because they weren't effective, as because I didn't like the side-effects. I've been stable on Paxil before but wanted off it due to withdrawal/discontinuation symptoms if I was late for a dose. I'm on Celexa now & have been stable on it for well over a year. Only Luvox actually 'pooped out' for me.
>
> I have other friends who most people wouldn't realise have taken ADs. In talking with them, many have taken them for 6 months or more, but were able to discontinue them afterwards successfully & continue normally. We just rarely hear about the positive stories as they get on with their life without mentioning meds to most people.
>
> **************************************************************************************************
>
> > You guys are scaring me. I was so reluctant to take ADs, and reading this I almost don't want to continue. I hope I don't have to take them forever, I hope it's a one year+ treatment that'll leave me functioning relatively normally. But I may be wrong hoping so much, I don't know. Seeing my doc tomorrow, will have a long talk !
Posted by sid on January 14, 2002, at 18:00:06
In reply to Re: Anyone Had Long Term Adverse Effects from A/Ds ? » sid, posted by bob on January 14, 2002, at 17:15:18
Thanks for your message. I also think that doing without these meds is better if it's possible.
I function relatively OK ona day-to-day basis, but I seem to be stuck in my life. I need to move on to better things and I am stuck. I feel I need meds at this point because I have done everything else I could think of. At this point, I think the anxiety is my worse problem. Dysthymia is not too bad, I've learned to live with it a long time ago. But anxiety can bring back a major episode of depression, and it makes me so nervous at crucial times that nothing in my life seems to move forward. I screw up (pardon my French) way too often these days, I need to get back on track. I am hoping that the meds might help. Also, after major depression, I have some very negative thinking that stayed with me, which is resistant to CBT, even though I know it's unrealistic and irrational. Most issues have been resolved, but 2 remain. I am hoping that meds will help with that too.
>
> The only advice I might give is that if you are living a reasonably functional life without meds, than try to keep that up. You will know if you really need to try meds - your life will become significantly impaired. If that is the state you are in currently, then maybe it's time.
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