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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on November 18, 2001, at 14:40:16
I always wondered what these drugs were like since they are still used after a 100 years. What is it like to be on morphine exactly? A dreamlike state? Also, heroin was originally introduced as a non-addictive form of morphine & was sold in otc potions for many years (boy were they wrong!)! So that means Morphine & Fentanyl are better than heroin. Perhaps life would be more fun if you did morphine all weekend but then worked and lived a regular life on Monday through Friday? Since they sell Morphine Sulfate pills in Mexico, I was thinking of going down to Mexico and renting a hotel room, getting a legal mexican morphine prescription, buying morphine sulfate pills from the pharmacia & then do morphine for a whole weekend---- Which since I would not be on U.S. soil this would not only be fun but would be totally legal (I wouldn't risk bringing any back to the united states- definitely not worth it).
Posted by Elizabeth on November 21, 2001, at 20:52:27
In reply to Is Morphine/Fentanyl the key to happiness? life?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on November 18, 2001, at 14:40:16
> I always wondered what these drugs were like since they are still used after a 100 years.
Fentanyl is much newer than that, while morphine (the active ingredient in opium) has been used for thousands of years, not a hundred. But anyway, the answer to your question is pretty simple: we haven't found any analgesic that is more effective than the opioids.
> Also, heroin was originally introduced as a non-addictive form of morphine & was sold in otc potions for many years (boy were they wrong!)! So that means Morphine & Fentanyl are better than heroin.
I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion or what your criteria for "better" are.
It's your choice whether to indulge your curiosity or not, but you might want to be aware that many addicts originally intended to try opiates "just once, to see what it's like." Also, I think that you may not find it as trivial to get morphine in Mexico as you imagine. They do sell these drugs in the USA too. In either country, a prescription is required by law; if you want to break the law, it would probably be much easier to get heroin right here in the good old US of A than to go to Mexico and buy morphine illegally. (Heroin is just diacetylmorphine, BTW.)
Just a suggestion, but I think you should give careful consideration to the possible consequences of your actions.
-elizabeth
Posted by stjames on November 22, 2001, at 9:56:47
In reply to Re: Is Morphine/Fentanyl the key to happiness? life?, posted by Elizabeth on November 21, 2001, at 20:52:27
And get you facts straight, in order of strength it's morphine, Heroin, and Fentanyl. On the street
Fentanyl is called China White, so strong that just a little too much and you OB and die.There are analogues stronger than Fentanyl, but anyone with a name "3 Beer Effect" clearly has no business knowing about them. Some of these are so strong that any dose is an OD.
Take it from an ex yet at the time very sucessful addict, a weekend in Mexico on morphine is how an addiction starts. It is also how you do something stupid and get into trouble with 1) the police or
2) the locals. Unless you have money to buy your way out of trouble yo are screwed.James
Posted by judy1 on November 22, 2001, at 17:52:38
In reply to Is Morphine/Fentanyl the key to happiness? life?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on November 18, 2001, at 14:40:16
I can certainly understand curiousity, but please listen to Elizabeth and James, I've taken ms contin and now I'm on fentanyl- under strict supervision of a dr.- signed contracts with the state and pharmacies. These are very powerful drugs and certainly something not to experiment with. In my teen days I ODed and barely made it. I think you should stick to beer- judy
Posted by Elizabeth on November 23, 2001, at 20:22:29
In reply to Re: Is Morphine/Fentanyl the key to happiness? life?, posted by stjames on November 22, 2001, at 9:56:47
> And get you facts straight, in order of strength it's morphine, Heroin, and Fentanyl.
"Strength" is pretty subjective -- it depends on what effect you're shooting for (pun intended - sorry, I couldn't resist), among other things.
> On the street Fentanyl is called China White, so strong that just a little too much and you OB and die.
"China White" is actually alpha-methylfentanyl or another derivative. It'd be pretty difficult to market fentanyl as heroin, since fentanyl lasts only about 30-45 minutes.
-e
Posted by benzapp on November 25, 2001, at 19:05:34
In reply to Re: Is Morphine/Fentanyl the key to happiness? life?, posted by stjames on November 22, 2001, at 9:56:47
As much as I do believe opiates are the future of psychiatric medication, I just wanted to highlight a few points. There are actually quite a few different kinds of opiod receptors in the brain. The Merck Manual has a great section on neurotransmitter receptors for those interested. The ones I am concerened with here are the mu-1 and kappa opiod receptors. The mu-1 receptor is the "pleasure" receptor. The mu-2 receptors, btw, are the ones that control respiration. mu-2 agonists decrease respiration. Endogenous endorphins very in the receptor they affect, but they all activate the kappa receptors as well. It is believed this is part of a feedback mechanism that prevents you from being too happy, diminishing your reproductive potential. It is the direct activation of the kappa receptors that cause a great deal of discomfort. There really is a pain/pleasure relationship with the opiod system. The primary difference between Fentanyl and Morphine is the level of activation of the kappa receptor. Fentanyl doesn't last as long as morphine per dose because of its greater activation of the kappa receptor, which tricks your body into responding less to mu-1 agonists thinking there is too much pleasure going on.
All I can say is this, Fentanyl is not going to be an effective antidepressant. Doctors might be quick to prescribe it because it only lasts an hour or two, and doesn't supress respiration as much, but it will not be pleasant. Fentanyl is showing up more and more on the street because it is so potent. 10mg of heroin will rock your world, but 10mg of fentanyl will kill you. I hate the stuff. It relieves withdrawl sickness, but it makes you just as anxious. It also has a very dysphoric effect, making you SAD. Its not quite the short temper of morphine withdrawl, but more like the peak of withdrawl... where you just feel like the world is going to end. Morphine is dangerous because it evolved to be a poison. All advanced organisms, those with eukaryotic cells, utilize endorphins for respiration. A single opium seed will kill a beetle, by fatally activating the mu-2 receptor. There is not yet a mu-1 specific agonist. The company that makes one will make a fortune. For more info:
Great page on opiod receptors, as well as a little history on them. Done by some guys from the University of Bristol and Parke-Davis
http://opioids.com/receptors/index.htmlOpiods.com is a great site that will lead you to many case studies and medical journal articles, I highly recommend it. It is starting to get a little dated, but I think the big anti-drug push the last few years has had its effects.
Also, you are right on the strength, but remember.. equivalent doses for equivalent analgesic activity is 10mg morphine, 5mg diacetylmorphine (heroin), 25-100 mcg Fentanyl. Note, thats MICROGRAMS for fentanyl. There are 1000 micrograms per milligram. Thus, if you accidently take 10mg of fentanyl thinking it was morphine, you will have take about 100-400 times more Fentanyl than you should have. Ouch. Is it any wonder there are random opiate overdoses out there? A single gram of fentanyl is enough to supply at least 20,000 doses. If anyone out there would like Fentanyl its drug dealers. No one is going to get caught smuggling that stuff.
> And get you facts straight, in order of strength it's morphine, Heroin, and Fentanyl. On the street
> Fentanyl is called China White, so strong that just a little too much and you OB and die.
>
> There are analogues stronger than Fentanyl, but anyone with a name "3 Beer Effect" clearly has no business knowing about them. Some of these are so strong that any dose is an OD.
>
> Take it from an ex yet at the time very sucessful addict, a weekend in Mexico on morphine is how an addiction starts. It is also how you do something stupid and get into trouble with 1) the police or
> 2) the locals. Unless you have money to buy your way out of trouble yo are screwed.
>
> James
Posted by benzapp on November 25, 2001, at 19:48:44
In reply to fentanyl stuff, posted by Elizabeth on November 23, 2001, at 20:22:29
Some corrections. China White is a slang term, and doesn't apply to anything other than a pure white narcotic. Pure heroin is white, contrary to popular belief. The drug you are referring to is 4-methyl fentanyl I believe. To my knowledge it has never been found to be prevalent on the street as it needs to be manufactured from fentanyl. This process was only recently discovered, about 1.5 years ago and is not easy. Black market drug dealers would have to be pretty familiar with cutting edge medical journals to know anything about it, let alone how to make it. Adding a meth group to any drug makes it pass the blood brain barrier more easily. To read the article from some involved in researching fentanyl analogs and their published work on 4-methyl fentanyl and its manufacturing process see:
Bioorganic Medical Chemistry Letter, 2000 Sep 4;
10(17):2011-44-methyl fentanyl is a potent drug however. This same article's preliminary study indicates its about four times as power as fentanyl per identical metric weight. For the previous poster, strength was not subjective, he was referring to potency per metric weight. To provide equivalent analgesic effect one would use 10mg of morphine, 5mg of diacetylmorphine (heroin), or .0025 to .001 milligrams of Fentanyl. A wide variety of opiates are found on the street, and fentanyl is definitely not unknown. Its potency makes it ideal for the black market, a single gram of fentanyl will provide 20,000 doses to satisfy ones addiction, where a single gram of heroin will provide only 200. Morphine and derivatives will always be popular for the reasons you state, but if the drug interdiction efforts become more effective and heroin imports decline, it will be far easier to smuggle fentanyl than heroin. While it may not be as much fun or last as long, it will relieve withdrawl symptoms. As any addict will tell you, some days you get good smack and some days you get bad smack. Fentanyl would fall into the "bad" category. Its not great, but its better than nothing. In general, black market drugs focus on the most pure form, as it is easier to smuggle. Heroin became popular for this same reason.
> > And get you facts straight, in order of strength it's morphine, Heroin, and Fentanyl.
>
> "Strength" is pretty subjective -- it depends on what effect you're shooting for (pun intended - sorry, I couldn't resist), among other things.
>
> > On the street Fentanyl is called China White, so strong that just a little too much and you OB and die.
>
> "China White" is actually alpha-methylfentanyl or another derivative. It'd be pretty difficult to market fentanyl as heroin, since fentanyl lasts only about 30-45 minutes.
>
> -e
Posted by judy1 on November 25, 2001, at 19:52:45
In reply to Re: Is Morphine/Fentanyl the key to happiness? life?, posted by benzapp on November 25, 2001, at 19:05:34
Thank you for posting this site, I found it fascinating. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. I'm presently withdrawing from fentanyl (Duragesic)- going down from a 100 ug patches by 25's. Did you say the withdrawal is worse than morphine? I've tapered off ms contin and it wasn't that bad, although I had to be treated for anxiety. I'm worried about your eluding to feeling 'sad', will that mean my depression will worsen more than if I had been on ms contin this time? Thanks for any input- judy
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