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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by janejj on November 12, 2001, at 18:33:47
Has anyone here ever smoked weed whilst they've been taking prozac ? If so what happened ?
Thanks
Posted by Katey on November 12, 2001, at 19:40:47
In reply to Prozac and weed, posted by janejj on November 12, 2001, at 18:33:47
im kind of curious too....which one of you well informed posters has a good answer for us? much appreciated if you do.
Posted by JahL on November 12, 2001, at 19:41:46
In reply to Prozac and weed, posted by janejj on November 12, 2001, at 18:33:47
> Has anyone here ever smoked weed whilst they've been taking prozac ? If so what happened ?
I got stoned %-)
Of course noone truly knows how marijuana interacts with other psychotropics/meds. However I've had no problem with 40+ meds. My doctor is aware of what I do and acknowledges that it's the *only* thing that gets me off to sleep. YMMV and all that.
J.
Posted by kitty-layne on November 12, 2001, at 23:51:48
In reply to Re: Prozac and weed » janejj, posted by JahL on November 12, 2001, at 19:41:46
What experiences have people had with weed and their meds?
Luvox intensified my stonedness, and decreased the sedation. It was nice, with little hallucinations and patterns behind my eyes, certainly better than without meds. On remeron it was much, much more sedating, and I didn't get munchies very much. Has anyone tried smoking on effexor or MAOIs?
Posted by JahL on November 13, 2001, at 0:26:32
In reply to ANY ad's and weed, posted by kitty-layne on November 12, 2001, at 23:51:48
> Has anyone tried smoking on effexor or MAOIs?
Yes. Both messed me up but smoking wasn't part of the equation. Personally speaking, it actually helps with certain med side-effects (esp. agitation/RLS/insomnia+ruminating thoughts-tho' paradoxically some/many people become paranoid & anxious on pot).
Interestingly Lamictal allows me to get stoned w/o suffering any significant cognitive deficit. It stands alone in this respect. I'm not imagining this; it's been noted by my pdocs.
J.
(disclaimer for anyone: I in no way condone or encourage illegal behaviour. However there are certain 'offences' I don't condemn either :-) )
Posted by sar on November 13, 2001, at 0:33:25
In reply to Re: ANY ad's and weed » kitty-layne, posted by JahL on November 13, 2001, at 0:26:32
AD + meds such as weed/benzos have been heaven for me.
can't function on them (drive, work, study, etc) but perfet relaxing night-time activity.
if you just lay out and chill...
Posted by jay on November 13, 2001, at 7:43:31
In reply to Prozac and weed, posted by janejj on November 12, 2001, at 18:33:47
> Has anyone here ever smoked weed whilst they've been taking prozac ? If so what happened ?
> Thanks
I found the combo great..but I that was just from one night's combo, at a rock concert, mixed with booze. I wish I could report on more regular use, and there is little doubt that pot and hash have some excellent potential in psychiatry. It and benzo's would be an excellent and safe hit at anxiety disorders. It's too bad the 'War On Drugs' mongers have held back it's use.(And benzos too!!!) As usual, just take your normal precautions when starting any drug. You want to make sure it doesn't have an adverse reaction. Otherwise, get out your stash and enjoy..:-)If you are interested more, goto
www.biopsychiatry.com (I think that is the url.)Jay
Posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 11:16:34
In reply to Re: Prozac and weed, posted by jay on November 13, 2001, at 7:43:31
I wonder how many states would be more willing to legalize MJ for medicinal use if they just legalized THC pills. It seems like politicians have something against prescribed drugs that are frequently administered in ways other than pills. Though I've never tried weed, given the cognitive effects of benzo's I don't see how a reasonable amount could be much worse, and I hear its much more effective for anxiety. Personally I'd rather my ghb, but that has cognitive effects too if used too often and the gov. is even further from legalizing that. But if THC pills were legalized, I'd certainly try them for panic disorder, benzo's seem to interrupt my thought processes too much, to the point I have trouble remembering a speech, and they don't cancel out all of the worst part of the anxiety (muscle twitching/chest and lung muscles twitching making it hard to breath or speak fluidly). In a social situation I might not feel very anxious with benzo's, but nor can I really remember anything that'd be interesting or funny to add to the conversation. If THC+lamactal would prevent that, that'd be wonderful...crazy drug war, making us criminals who choose to medicate with better drugs our doctors cant prescribe us.
JGalt
Posted by JohnX2 on November 13, 2001, at 15:12:23
In reply to Prozac and weed, posted by janejj on November 12, 2001, at 18:33:47
Maybe you should file a patent on the combo.
If a pharmaceutical company can make money on
it then they'll buy you out!!! ;)-john
> Has anyone here ever smoked weed whilst they've been taking prozac ? If so what happened ?
> Thanks
Posted by Katey on November 13, 2001, at 16:10:52
In reply to Re: Prozac and weed » janejj, posted by JohnX2 on November 13, 2001, at 15:12:23
i love you guys, i just thought id get that out, never have i met such knowledgable people on such interesting and important subjects.
Posted by kitty-layne on November 13, 2001, at 21:43:01
In reply to Re: ANY ad's and weed, posted by sar on November 13, 2001, at 0:33:25
I'm always bemused by people's claims that cannabis/THC has a place in psychiatry. I admit that I have self-medicated with it to the extent of daily use, and to a certain degree it works. It improves my mood, makes me more sociable and improves certain kinds of anxiety (though it worsens others). On the other hand, it makes me slow, confused, sedated, suspicious, stupid, wrecks my short-term memory and once provoked a mild episode of paranoia which didn't subside until I'd given up for a few weeks. Others I have spoken to report a dry mouth. Some of the other effects could be seen as negative. The hallucinogenic effects, for example (although these are usually just perceptual changes, ie. derealization rather than full-blown hallucinations and probably wouldn't be noticeable after a week at a low-moderate dose); the munchies; the abuse potential. Tolerance to some of the effects seems to occur, but personally I find that it is very hard to achieve the positive effects without more sedation and confusion than I can cope with while performing relatively complex tasks. Even at very low doses (eg. smokin' up before visiting the pdoc) I notice these two side effects, without strongly feeling the positive effects. Also, the effects are quite short lived, so doses would have to be taken several times a day.
Its use to treat anxiety seems dubious. Some, including me, find it useful for social anxiety. Many do not. Some even claim to feel more anxious. Many people experience mild paranoid thinking/strong suspiciousness or anxiety reactions (surely the fact that these common phenomenon are known as "the fear" should put people off?). I find that "the fear" can sometimes overwhelm the relaxing effects. I also find myself more anxious in other ways, worried about deadlines, that my family/friends are going to die/leave me, and about events in the future. Panic reactions are often reported in medical literature, though I have never known anyone to experience them. I suspect this is something that only happens to beginners who get _REALLY_ stoned and are unnerved by the hallucinogenic effects, and is a psychological rather than neurochemical problem, but I don't know.
I would argue against the use of cannabis/THC to treat depression. It tends to improve the mood for a couple of hours after a reasonable dose has been taken, and is helpful if one suffers from insomnia or loss of appetite, but it also tends to decrease motivation, concentration and energy. I sometimes feel euthymic but I know I'm still depressed. Tolerance definately occurs to the improvement in mood.
One of the things that interests me most about cannabis is that it increases the intensity of emotion. I feel flat and uninterested normally, but when I'm stoned, my feelings are more like they were when I was a child. I find I can enjoy things like films or music, and I can feel enthusiastic about things which I like. If only I could achieve this effect on its own somehow, my life would be far more meaningful and enjoyable. I have taken no other drugs that have this anti-anhedonic (no, I don't suppose that's a real word either) effect/sharpening of affect. Perhaps some sort of cannabinoid-related drug could be synthesised that had this effect without the undesirable side-effects. This would probably combine quite well with the SSRIs ;-)
IMO the limited efficacy of weed/THC, the side-effects (which are usually stronger than the therapeutic effects) and the abuse potential mean that it probably isn't effective enough to be used in psychiatry. I'm interested to see what other people think. Maybe in rare cases where no other treatment is tolerable/effective, or at low doses in combination with other drugs, it might be useful. Or, other cannabinoids could possibly be more effective. Otherwise, IMO, we should stick to using it as a mild and relatively safe recreational drug (unless of course it's illegal in your country- I'm have to say that, don't I? Don't we have freedom of speech?).
-
--kitp.s. I am perfectly willing to accept that my understanding of the effects and potential usage of cannabis/THC may have been strongly affected by the fact that I have regularly taken doses much larger than would ever be used in psychiatry, in the same way that someone who has extensively used/"abused" amphetamines in high doses would probably not believe that they could be used therapeutically.
Posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 22:34:23
In reply to THC in psychiatry, posted by kitty-layne on November 13, 2001, at 21:43:01
The memory, lack of energy, motivation, etc. problems associated with THC seem an acceptable trade in the treatment of depression and/or anxiety. The tricyclics and benzo's in particular have quite a few negative cognitive effects. this site details them (some of what they say should be taken with a grain of salt perhaps, but they are studies none the less) http://www.garynull.com/Documents/Iatrogenic/antidepressants.htm
Benzo's really seem to destroy my recall ability. I just flat out can't think much on them.MJ, though I have never used it sounds in many ways similar to ghb, with the exceptions that I've never experienced increase anxiety on ghb, nor are the cognitive effects as bad. Still, they are present, and annoying at times. But the overall decreased social anxiety, munchies, euthymia are all the same. People I know that have used both claim GHB to be more powerful in the euthymia deparment...I have no way of knowing.
From what I know from 2nd and 3rd hand experience, I see nothing wrong with MJ being used for occasional anxiety. It is rare to ever hear someone complain about being addicted to MJ or having withdraw effects or building up a resistance to the antianxiety aspects, but you certainly hear that with other short acting benzo's like xanax. Perhaps just taking a pill before a speech or social situation, provided you are one of the people it doesn't really kill your cognitive abilities, and all would be well.
Just my 2 cents.
JGalt
Posted by Kathleen6674 on November 14, 2001, at 1:33:47
In reply to Prozac and weed, posted by janejj on November 12, 2001, at 18:33:47
>< i > Has anyone here ever smoked weed whilst they've been taking prozac ? If so what happened ?
> Thanks< /i >The effect was stronger, and I felt "floatier." Also, once I smoked a little too much and felt mildly paranoid.
Most importantly, when I was on Prozac, it was the only thing that helped me have an orgasm.
Posted by jay on November 14, 2001, at 7:05:41
In reply to THC in psychiatry, posted by kitty-layne on November 13, 2001, at 21:43:01
> I'm always bemused by people's claims that cannabis/THC has a place in psychiatry.
>polite snip<
> IMO the limited efficacy of weed/THC, the side-effects (which are usually stronger than the therapeutic effects) and the abuse potential mean that it probably isn't effective enough to be used in psychiatry. I'm interested to see what other people think. Maybe in rare cases where no other treatment is tolerable/effective, or at low doses in combination with other drugs, it might be useful. Or, other cannabinoids could possibly be more effective. Otherwise, IMO, we should stick to using it as a mild and relatively safe recreational drug (unless of course it's illegal in your country- I'm have to say that, don't I? Don't we have freedom of speech?).
>
> -
> --kitI understand some of your concern, but I have seen very little scientific literature that say's it is easily abused. (In context of other drugs)
I have been on numerous prescribed psychotropics that have caused many of the concerns, and more, that you have indicated, yet docs still dish them out no prob. (Again...I have nothing wrong with that...it's just the context.) Depakote, Lithium, and Topomax seem to cause some nasty cognitive problems, yet they are still widely used.I am not trying to be a snot or anything, but tolerance doesn't seem to be an issue, and I have not seen much to indicate it is unsafe in general. Tolerance seems to be a great indicator in drug use because people don't need more (at what can lead to sometimes toxic levels...although this is overplayed often too).
Just trying to present a bit of a different take. I really would like to see some large-scale scientific controled studies of it's possible application in psychiatry. Here in Canada, it is a fairly legit (yet controled) pain-medication. Why not extend it's use if it can possibly do some good?
Jay
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 14, 2001, at 12:35:06
In reply to ANY ad's and weed, posted by kitty-layne on November 12, 2001, at 23:51:48
Not found that any of the meds I have been on have changed the effect of weed... Not that I have noticed anyway, but haven't been watching for it!!
Oh, and my doc knows i smoke weed and is happy with it!
Nikki
> What experiences have people had with weed and their meds?
>
> Luvox intensified my stonedness, and decreased the sedation. It was nice, with little hallucinations and patterns behind my eyes, certainly better than without meds. On remeron it was much, much more sedating, and I didn't get munchies very much. Has anyone tried smoking on effexor or MAOIs?
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 14, 2001, at 12:37:54
In reply to Re: ANY ad's and weed » kitty-layne, posted by JahL on November 13, 2001, at 0:26:32
I found weed was the only thing that helped me at all on Effexor withdrawal... It helped me get some rest when all i could do was shake and shiver, helped ease the constant vomiting, and generally gave me some peace from it all.
nikki
> > Has anyone tried smoking on effexor or MAOIs?
>
> Yes. Both messed me up but smoking wasn't part of the equation. Personally speaking, it actually helps with certain med side-effects (esp. agitation/RLS/insomnia+ruminating thoughts-tho' paradoxically some/many people become paranoid & anxious on pot).
>
> Interestingly Lamictal allows me to get stoned w/o suffering any significant cognitive deficit. It stands alone in this respect. I'm not imagining this; it's been noted by my pdocs.
>
> J.
>
> (disclaimer for anyone: I in no way condone or encourage illegal behaviour. However there are certain 'offences' I don't condemn either :-) )
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 14, 2001, at 12:46:36
In reply to Re: THC in psychiatry, posted by JGalt on November 13, 2001, at 22:34:23
What the "hangover" like for GHB?? I often felt like hell after doing ecstacy - but i think this was more about speed and relatives in it than any mdma.
ta
Nikki
Posted by JahL on November 14, 2001, at 13:10:20
In reply to THC in psychiatry, posted by kitty-layne on November 13, 2001, at 21:43:01
> IMO the limited efficacy of weed/THC, the side-effects (which are usually stronger than the therapeutic effects) and the abuse potential mean that it probably isn't effective enough to be used in psychiatry. I'm interested to see what other people think.I tend to agree & I speak as a heavy-duty smoker. Fact is it's the only thing that lets me deal with the persistent agitation I suffer from. More importantly I can't sleep w/o it. However it's far from perfect and I'm not just talking about side-effects (lung, throat & mouth cancer being some of the biggest dangers given the preferred method of ingestion).
Basically it doesn't do the job; it just *helps* with various symptoms. Perhaps this is where its role in psychiatry lays (amelioration of side-effects). I certainly don't think it's a 'cure' (if we can equate this with full remission) for depressive or anxiety disorders. Tho' the THC derivatives currently being studied may offer something different?
The evidence of efficacy for nerve related pain is better.
Having said this I have great affection for Mary; there is no doubting she improves my QOL to some extent and beggars can't be choosers. However I ultimately see her as a convenient (& mildly pleasurable) stop-gap until the medical community catches up with us & comes up with something better than we currently have. Until then...
J.
Posted by Pamela Lynn on November 14, 2001, at 14:06:30
In reply to ANY ad's and weed, posted by kitty-layne on November 12, 2001, at 23:51:48
To be honest...I have smoked some weed while taking Effexor..."My" experience with it was, simply, the same as it always has been with just the weed...No better no worse. Remember...this is only my experience.
BTW, I don't smoke the good herb anylonger...I can't withstand the munchies it gives me!! LOL
P.L.
> What experiences have people had with weed and their meds?
>
> Luvox intensified my stonedness, and decreased the sedation. It was nice, with little hallucinations and patterns behind my eyes, certainly better than without meds. On remeron it was much, much more sedating, and I didn't get munchies very much. Has anyone tried smoking on effexor or MAOIs?
Posted by janejj on November 14, 2001, at 15:24:52
In reply to Re: Prozac and weed, posted by jay on November 13, 2001, at 7:43:31
> > Has anyone here ever smoked weed whilst they've been taking prozac ? If so what happened ?
> > ThanksOK, well i tried it and the results were rather pleasing ! Before i started taking prozac i would often get paranoia attacks if i smoked. This time i didn't get that, i just felt good and relaxed. I'm not a regular user, but if i'm with friends then i don't mind the odd spliff, so this is all good news !
Thanks for the replies.
>
>
> I found the combo great..but I that was just from one night's combo, at a rock concert, mixed with booze. I wish I could report on more regular use, and there is little doubt that pot and hash have some excellent potential in psychiatry. It and benzo's would be an excellent and safe hit at anxiety disorders. It's too bad the 'War On Drugs' mongers have held back it's use.(And benzos too!!!) As usual, just take your normal precautions when starting any drug. You want to make sure it doesn't have an adverse reaction. Otherwise, get out your stash and enjoy..:-)
>
> If you are interested more, goto
> www.biopsychiatry.com (I think that is the url.)
>
> Jay
Posted by michael on November 14, 2001, at 15:30:51
In reply to Re: ANY ad's and weed » kitty-layne, posted by Pamela Lynn on November 14, 2001, at 14:06:30
Never noticed any difference from pre-AD experiences.
As for the negative side effects:
-first of all, show me one of the "legal" ad's, benzo's, etc. that is discussed here that don't have undesireable side effects -- don't think it exists.
-secondly, I think everyone here is familiar with the "your mileage may vary" aspect of meds. Just because some of us have had less than perfect experiences with a particular medication/drug does not mean that all will, nor that it has no place in the psychotropic arsenal.
Personally - and this is of course purely my opinion - I think alcohol is more "dangerous" societially, than "weed" is. Alcoholism, and all of it's associated collateral damage, clearly seem far more significant than any that result from "weed-ism" - that is if it's even addictive. (For example, people don't ingest mj and become beilgerant and beat people up - be it in a bar, in the home, etc. -- getting the munchies seems much less socially harmful)
Sorry if I sound beligerant or preachy - I don't mean to... I just find the acceptability of alcohol along side the demonization of mj to be rather hypocitical... And I guess I would take the same perspective with respect to medications that are controlled/prescribed compared to mj - as mentioned earlier, both have potential to help, as well as potentially undesireable side effects.
As I said above, this is purely my opinion. Don't mean to offend anyone. And just for the record, I don't have a problem with the legality/availability of alcohol - I do drink. Also, I quite rarely smoke "weed" these days.
(btw - please ignore any spelling errors - don't have a dictionary at hand)
michael
> To be honest...I have smoked some weed while taking Effexor..."My" experience with it was, simply, the same as it always has been with just the weed...No better no worse. Remember...this is only my experience.
>
> BTW, I don't smoke the good herb anylonger...I can't withstand the munchies it gives me!! LOL
>
> P.L.
> > What experiences have people had with weed and their meds?
> >
> > Luvox intensified my stonedness, and decreased the sedation. It was nice, with little hallucinations and patterns behind my eyes, certainly better than without meds. On remeron it was much, much more sedating, and I didn't get munchies very much. Has anyone tried smoking on effexor or MAOIs?
Posted by JGalt on November 14, 2001, at 20:05:43
In reply to Re: THC in psychiatry - GHB, posted by NikkiT2 on November 14, 2001, at 12:46:36
> What the "hangover" like for GHB?? I often felt like hell after doing ecstacy - but i think this was more about speed and relatives in it than any mdma.
Well MDMA usually has a hangover for many people...called the suicidal tuesdays or something like that due to low serotonin levels after using it.
The hangover from GHB for me has been nonexistant unless I use it to go to sleep or to get back to sleep. In that case I feel pretty dumbed down the next day (not sluggish, just short term memory and word recall feels a little shot till the next night) and all because of lack of dreaming (more in stage 4 sleep). If used in the day, and you don't have much left in you when you go to sleep, then there isn't any hangover whatsoever from what I've seen.
JGalt
Posted by Mitchell on November 15, 2001, at 23:58:30
In reply to THC in psychiatry, posted by kitty-layne on November 13, 2001, at 21:43:01
Forgive me if I do not supply the links here (maybe later) but several scholarly papers have been offered from prestigious academies exploring the medical and psychiatric potential of one of the world's oldest psychotropic agents.
The experiences of underground pharmacology do not provide a reliable basis for a final determination of any substances' usefulness in psychiatry. We would not rule out stimulants based on the abuse potential of illegal methamphetamine.
The usefulness of THC in psychiatry will likely be learned from study of the brains' endogenous networks of cannabinoid receptors and from the study of the role of anandamide, the neurotransmitter that binds to those receptors. THC's psychotropic effects seem to result primarily from its similarities to anandamide.
Subjective experiences derived from smoking cannabis make poor material for research because most cannabis users lack either chemical tests or experiences that would allow them to discern cannabis rich in THC from cannabis more rich in CDB, cannabidiol. THC and CDB have unique tolerance profiles, with tolerances more likely to develop for CDB. Anxiety, lethargy and some of the other negative elements of cannabis intoxication are associated more with CDB than with THC.
Generally, cannabis rich in THC produces a sensation many refer to as a "high" while cannabis rich in CDB produces a sensation many refer to as being "stoned." Some cannibas connoisseurs long ago learned to differentiate, subjectively, "stony" cannabis from that which produces more euphoria and a sense of well being. Recent research that identified effects of various cannabinoids tended to validate street-level lore that described qualities of this popular and historic psychotropic medication.
Cannabis with little THC and much CDB can produce headaches and is generally considered poor quality. Some users may never have access to supplies of higher quality strains, as growers in various regions of the world have developed widely divergent genetic pools. Much of the CDB-rich genetics likely migrated to the gene pool of illegal psychotropics from strains of cannabis once widely grown for fiber.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 19, 2001, at 12:29:35
In reply to Re: ANY ad's and weed, posted by michael on November 14, 2001, at 15:30:51
They're actually int he process of "down grading" the criminality of weed in the UK at the moment.. taking it from category B to category C - this means that they're basically making it OK to have enough for personal use...
Nikki
This is the end of the thread.
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