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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 0:01:49
I would like to know if anyone out there has experienced anything like what I am about to describe? I am, from what I have been told, extremely intelligent. I was tested at over a 140 IQ at a young age, and have been expected to perform at that level for my entire life. Therefore, I have expected this type of performance from myself up until the last couple of years. My scholastic level has always been sub par, but that has only been because of my extreme lack of interest in anything. “I mean anything” I have always been very popular, and was always able to make friends easily, and have had numerous involved and deep relationships with women. Now here is the problem. At the age of about 25, “Now 28” I started to recreationally use drugs: Ecstasy, Cocaine, Xanex, to be more specific. This extracurricular drug use culminated in an unfortunate and uncharacteristic situation where I mistakenly overdosed on Heroin. I made this mistake by snorting a white powder, which I thought was Cocaine, and it turned out to be Heroine. I awoke in the hospital, and was informed that I had overdosed on Heroine. This is where the problem begins. (The problem at issue, not the drug problem) Ever since this incident, I have felt as if I am completely socially inept. I no longer have the ability to interact with people. The only people that I communicate with are the friends that I had previous to this experience. Although they were the only people I considered friends anyway. I feel that I have nothing to offer to any conversation. Let my try to give an example of my thought process when I am placed in a social situation…. I really cannot think of an actual conversational situation, I can only express my frustration as the inability to think of anything to say to anyone about anything. It is almost as if I am becoming Autistic, like the people in Awakenings. My friends and family claim they have not witnessed any major change in my personality, but I am certain that my mind is rapidly deteriorating. I am currently seeking help through a psychiatrist, and he has prescribed Adderall for my ADHD and Gabitril for my anxiety. My experience with psych drugs has encompassed everything from Lithium to Wellbutrin and Paxil to Ritalin to Serazone, so don’t knock the Adderall treatment. It’s really the only thing so far that elevates my mood. “It still doesn’t make me sociable, but it allows me to concentrate on work.” I guess what I am asking is if anyone out there has any suggestions as to what I can do for my social anxiety, or if anyone can relate to my experience? Now I probably will not remember writing this because I no longer have a short-term memory, so reference your advice…if you have any, to LOST IN DES MOINES.
Posted by Mark H. on November 2, 2001, at 0:42:47
In reply to cognitive decline, posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 0:01:49
Dear Lost,
I recall how stunned I was when my quantitative methods instructor stated, "correlation is not causation." The cluster of symptoms called "depression" includes a marked (and TEMPORARY) decline in cognitive function and social skills. Only half-jokingly, I would say that turning 28 for someone of your IQ is more likely to "cause" depression than your former drug use and accidental overdose.
When I was your age, I remember asking my dad if he "got scared" when he was 28. He replied, "Yes, I got scared and took a job I didn't want, because I didn't think I'd get anything else. Up to that point in my life, the world was my oyster." He stayed with the job he didn't like for 21 years. Hmmmmm.
You write so well and clearly that I suspect you have not suffered any permanent cognitive damage. Be kind to yourself while you go through this. When you and your doctor find a treatment plan that truly helps with what you are experiencing (and you will!), your smarts will come back.
Very best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Mitch on November 2, 2001, at 10:12:04
In reply to cognitive decline, posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 0:01:49
> I would like to know if anyone out there has experienced anything like what I am about to describe? I am, from what I have been told, extremely intelligent. I was tested at over a 140 IQ at a young age, and have been expected to perform at that level for my entire life. Therefore, I have expected this type of performance from myself up until the last couple of years. My scholastic level has always been sub par, but that has only been because of my extreme lack of interest in anything. “I mean anything” I have always been very popular, and was always able to make friends easily, and have had numerous involved and deep relationships with women. Now here is the problem. At the age of about 25, “Now 28” I started to recreationally use drugs: Ecstasy, Cocaine, Xanex, to be more specific. This extracurricular drug use culminated in an unfortunate and uncharacteristic situation where I mistakenly overdosed on Heroin. I made this mistake by snorting a white powder, which I thought was Cocaine, and it turned out to be Heroine. I awoke in the hospital, and was informed that I had overdosed on Heroine. This is where the problem begins. (The problem at issue, not the drug problem) Ever since this incident, I have felt as if I am completely socially inept. I no longer have the ability to interact with people. The only people that I communicate with are the friends that I had previous to this experience. Although they were the only people I considered friends anyway. I feel that I have nothing to offer to any conversation. Let my try to give an example of my thought process when I am placed in a social situation…. I really cannot think of an actual conversational situation, I can only express my frustration as the inability to think of anything to say to anyone about anything. It is almost as if I am becoming Autistic, like the people in Awakenings. My friends and family claim they have not witnessed any major change in my personality, but I am certain that my mind is rapidly deteriorating. I am currently seeking help through a psychiatrist, and he has prescribed Adderall for my ADHD and Gabitril for my anxiety. My experience with psych drugs has encompassed everything from Lithium to Wellbutrin and Paxil to Ritalin to Serazone, so don’t knock the Adderall treatment. It’s really the only thing so far that elevates my mood. “It still doesn’t make me sociable, but it allows me to concentrate on work.” I guess what I am asking is if anyone out there has any suggestions as to what I can do for my social anxiety, or if anyone can relate to my experience? Now I probably will not remember writing this because I no longer have a short-term memory, so reference your advice…if you have any, to LOST IN DES MOINES.
I think a lot of drug experiences like the one you describe (the OD experience) actually are a traumatic experience of sorts that has reverberations that you might have trouble shaking. I think it is a mild form of PTSD. You didn't mention trying any Zoloft in your statement. I believe it is now indicated for PTSD. It also should help the social anxiety.
What interests me is that you mentioned Gabitril. I was on Gabitril for bipolar at doses that reached 32mg/day and I had intense depersonalization and cognitive dysfunction on it. YACKS, that got pitched real quick. I don't know what dosage you are on, but that may be the source of your problems. I also experienced profound word-finding difficulties at the higher dosages. Neurontin, Tegretol, Trileptal, Lamictal, and even Depakote (all at reasonable doses) have fewer cognitive adverse events for mood stabiizers.
I tried Neurontin and Adderall once and it worked really well, but I have to have a serotonin med in the mix or I get panic.
Mitch
Posted by cjay on November 2, 2001, at 11:10:08
In reply to cognitive decline, posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 0:01:49
> I would like to know if anyone out there has experienced anything like what I am about to describe? I am, from what I have been told, extremely intelligent. I was tested at over a 140 IQ at a young age, and have been expected to perform at that level for my entire life. Therefore, I have expected this type of performance from myself up until the last couple of years. My scholastic level has always been sub par, but that has only been because of my extreme lack of interest in anything. “I mean anything” I have always been very popular, and was always able to make friends easily, and have had numerous involved and deep relationships with women. Now here is the problem. At the age of about 25, “Now 28” I started to recreationally use drugs: Ecstasy, Cocaine, Xanex, to be more specific. This extracurricular drug use culminated in an unfortunate and uncharacteristic situation where I mistakenly overdosed on Heroin. I made this mistake by snorting a white powder, which I thought was Cocaine, and it turned out to be Heroine. I awoke in the hospital, and was informed that I had overdosed on Heroine. This is where the problem begins. (The problem at issue, not the drug problem) Ever since this incident, I have felt as if I am completely socially inept. I no longer have the ability to interact with people. The only people that I communicate with are the friends that I had previous to this experience. Although they were the only people I considered friends anyway. I feel that I have nothing to offer to any conversation. Let my try to give an example of my thought process when I am placed in a social situation…. I really cannot think of an actual conversational situation, I can only express my frustration as the inability to think of anything to say to anyone about anything. It is almost as if I am becoming Autistic, like the people in Awakenings. My friends and family claim they have not witnessed any major change in my personality, but I am certain that my mind is rapidly deteriorating. I am currently seeking help through a psychiatrist, and he has prescribed Adderall for my ADHD and Gabitril for my anxiety. My experience with psych drugs has encompassed everything from Lithium to Wellbutrin and Paxil to Ritalin to Serazone, so don’t knock the Adderall treatment. It’s really the only thing so far that elevates my mood. “It still doesn’t make me sociable, but it allows me to concentrate on work.” I guess what I am asking is if anyone out there has any suggestions as to what I can do for my social anxiety, or if anyone can relate to my experience? Now I probably will not remember writing this because I no longer have a short-term memory, so reference your advice…if you have any, to LOST IN DES MOINES.
I RELATE TOTALLY!
Cjay
Posted by frozen on November 2, 2001, at 12:08:33
In reply to Re: cognitive decline, posted by cjay on November 2, 2001, at 11:10:08
Hi, i think also some brain-nourishing supplement may help, to counteract free radical stress to brain cells.Supplements like CDP-choline , piracetam,vinpocetine, phosphatidylserine,should lessen this 'mental void' you feel, but ok, its my only 2 cents for thsi problem i suffered from, too.
Luca
Posted by JGalt on November 2, 2001, at 14:12:26
In reply to cognitive decline, posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 0:07:01
I don't know that I have much advice for you, but I can certainly relate to your experience. I used to get this same feeling after milder drug use than you described. It became as though very few connections/associations existed between people/places/things and thus I didn't really feel able to follow thought processes or conversations. I felt that my mind was constantly deteriorating as well. However, I no longer believe that is/was true. It just took a little while drug free to regain this. While in your case this may take a while longer due to the extent of your drug abuse, I still think it is probably the case that you will recover most of your original function. I tried numerous nutritional and drug approaches to solve the problem, some seemed to help, some didn't.
The one thing that seemed to help the most was a combination of "smart drugs" known as "huperzine-A " (that u may be a y, I'm not sure) and "vinpocetine" in the amounts of 10microgram and 10milligrams, respecitvely. It is far from a cureall but it is the only thing besides time that seemed to help all that much. Of course, stimulants such as adderal and ritalin help too, but they seem to burnout for their positive memory effects rather quickly (maybe not for long if JohnX2's research is correct). Many other drugs which are supposed to increase memory exist but those are the only two that worked significantly for me. Experiment as you would like if you so choose with the others.
Another thing to try is learning a new skill or doing one that you used to do. Math, science, whatever, type of problems...these usually serve to build confidence once you learn/relearn them, which is another thing that drug abuse lowers and contributes to the memory less effect (part of the reason depressed people usually score a lot lower on memory tests yet improve significantly once the depression is lifted or they get a good dose of adderal).
Hope this helps,
JGalt
Posted by Beliala on November 2, 2001, at 21:21:47
In reply to cognitive decline, posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 0:01:49
Sorta....in my case I believe my permanent loss of mental function was due to a combo of years of psychiatric doping (including a few neuroleptics) and ECT. I was getting pretty impaired in the few months prior to my treatment though, just from the depression. It's now been 8 years for the record. My completely non-professional opinion is that some peoples' brains are just really susceptible to damage from chemical and electrical insults. I get so depressed thinking about how intelligent I used to be and how I used to downplay it and take it for granted. I just get so depressed, period.
Posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 22:58:07
In reply to Re: cognitive decline, posted by Beliala on November 2, 2001, at 21:21:47
> Sorta....in my case I believe my permanent loss of mental function was due to a combo of years of psychiatric doping (including a few neuroleptics) and ECT. I was getting pretty impaired in the few months prior to my treatment though, just from the depression. It's now been 8 years for the record. My completely non-professional opinion is that some peoples' brains are just really susceptible to damage from chemical and electrical insults. I get so depressed thinking about how intelligent I used to be and how I used to downplay it and take it for granted. I just get so depressed, period.
I completely agree. I have a few friends who have dabbled in drugs much more than myself, and yet they are not experiencing the effects that I am. Please don't misunderstand my story as a disguise for an underlying drug problem. I have never had a problem with drugs; I was only an experimental user. This is a classification that a lot of people cannot seem to understand. I have never been addicted to anything, except possibly cheeseburgers and French fries. I am very interested in what your impairment was prior to your treatments. I have been told numerous times that it is the depression that is causing my problems, yet I feel that is not possible. Depression cannot absolutely remove your entire personality, can it?
Posted by Beliala on November 3, 2001, at 0:51:12
In reply to Re: cognitive decline » Beliala, posted by jn on November 2, 2001, at 22:58:07
8 years ago I suffered what I now realize was a reactive depression. At the time I didn’t think mere psychic misery could induce the insomnia, fatigue, and concentration problems that were seriously affecting my grades at school (it can), and I thought surely I had some sort of "physical" illness. Anyway I first got put on Zoloft and clonazepam, which only worsened these symptoms. I had neuropsychological testing while on meds, I think this particular combination, though it’s all pretty hazy. Formerly an exceptional student, I tested in the bottom 2% for language ability. This got my pdoc all excited that I had a brain tumor or something, but I think it was just the combo of acute depression + meds. As you can see I’ve rebounded somewhat since then. But the thing is, even in the years since then when good things have happened in my life and I didn’t feel terribly unhappy, I never regained my former emotional reactivity or intellect. Even during the "good times" I still had tremendous difficulty concentrating to complete say one dumbed-down correspondence course a year, and I still haven’t gotten my high school diploma (I admit I’m a bit of a perfectionist). Granted I’ve been on at least a low dose of psych meds for the last 8 years though, so I don’t know how my brain work without them. I really have to wonder how things would have turned out if I’d never taken psych meds though.
I’m also told my cognitive difficulties are due to depression, but if that’s the case then why haven’t the two dozen psych meds I’ve been on helped? Okay I take that back, Ritalin/Dexedrine helped slightly but the side effects way outweighed the benefits for me. I think docs will blame just about every symptom on "depression" if no other official medical diagnosis fits the bill. If there haven’t been any double-blind research studies showing the side effects you mention, they don’t exist. Maybe 100 years from now the experts will have this all figured out....cold comfort that is.
Posted by Twain on November 3, 2001, at 2:03:02
In reply to Re: cognitive decline jn, posted by Beliala on November 3, 2001, at 0:51:12
I relate to this.
I used acid recreationally (is there any other way?) for 3 months. Always took about 5 times the normal dose every 3 or 4 days. Then took it periodically for about 5 years.
Years later I took almost every anti-psychotic, anti-depressant, dexedrine, ritalin, lithium, and so forth. This lasted about 20 years. Managed to avoid ECT, although the V.A. in Iowa City (ECT capital of the world) strongly recommended it.
Anyway, I used to test high on intelligence tests but now my cognitive function resembles a kind of groping in the dark. Like rummaging around in a dark cave.
During the last decade I've done a lot of experimenting with nurtrional supplements. Bach Flower rememdies, all the "brain food" supplements - most recently: S.a.m.e. and 5-htp. and numerous others. My cupboard has more supplements than food.
All I can get my pdoc (after 6 years - drug & doc free) to prescribe is neurotin. I'm at the end of my rope, even thinking about the hospital (but I'd rather be dead than go back to the VA hospital) trying to keep it together and the first two mds I see prescribe Zyprexa and Compazine (for anxiety?) I'm doing better now but if a health nut who drinks infrequently (sometimes less than once a year), who hasn't used drugs/meds for 6 years, can't get a real anti-anxiety drug after going through 3 doctors, what do I have to do?
The neurotin is marginally better than drinking. Actually a lot better. I must be building up to drink again. Ugh.
Since I can't find a compliant doctor (one I can manipulate), any ideas for supplements I can get at a health food store?
Posted by MB on November 3, 2001, at 12:12:36
In reply to To Lost in DesMoines, posted by Mark H. on November 2, 2001, at 0:42:47
I didn't get scared until I was 29. Maybe that's because my IQ is only 125.
> Dear Lost,
>
> I would say that turning 28 for someone of your IQ is more likely to "cause" depression than your former drug use and accidental overdose.
Posted by Beliala on November 3, 2001, at 20:56:48
In reply to Re: cognitive decline jn, posted by Twain on November 3, 2001, at 2:03:02
> During the last decade I've done a lot of experimenting with nurtrional supplements. Bach Flower rememdies, all the "brain food" supplements - most recently: S.a.m.e. and 5-htp. and numerous others. My cupboard has more supplements than food.
Sounds like my cupboard lol. I haven’t tried the Bach Flower remedies or 5-htp yet. Tryptophan gave me an unpleasant flush and actually worsened my insomnia so I’m not optimistic about the 5-htp (I don’t imagine it would give me the flush though, since it doesn’t convert to niacin). I have tried SO many supplements, and none of them had much positive effect on my mood, energy or mental function. Same with healthy eating. The high-dose pantothenic acid I tried taking for acne actually gave me some neurological side effects though.
I don’t know what you’ve read but Dealing With Depression Naturally by Syd Baumel and Mind Boosters by Ray Sahelian are interesting. Not actually helpful to me, but then neither are the drugs. Recommended supplements I’ve tried and found near- or completely- useless include combinations of: High-dose b-complex, co-enzymated b-vitamins (b6, b12, b3 [ENADA - supposed to be great stuff]), tyrosine, TMG, carnitine, ephedrine, ginseng (3 kinds), gotu kola, "natural energy" mixed herbs supplement, gingko biloba, GABA, flax oil, coenzyme q10, and DLPA (I didn’t realize the importance of taking this on an empty stomach at the time and will be giving it another trial). Valerian and kava kava were modestly helpful for my insomnia (never tried them in the daytime).
> Since I can't find a compliant doctor (one I can manipulate)....
You neither, huh? Actually mine’s been better than most in the medication dept., but he draws the line at the opioids I feel are my only hope to feel better. I’ve given up entirely on the cognitive function aspect.
This is the end of the thread.
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