![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Rick on October 31, 2001, at 2:00:52
I doubt anyone really has an "answer" to this, but I'd certainly be interested in hearing any experiences or theories.
About three months after adding Serzone and Provigil (modafinil) to my Klonopin (for Social Phobia), I developed a very bothersome floater in my left eye which sometimes appeared as a thick, dark curved hair and other times as a brownish semi-opaque oval.
Briefly, floaters are usually-benign protein strands that can form in the vitreous "gel" of the eye. They are very common but usually invisible or only fleetingly, barely visible. But some can become large or start appearing dark by casting a very noticeable shadow on the retina when there's a bright background such as a computer, the blue sky, or even a well-lit book. Mine -- especially the "original," dance around and become very annoying as my eyes move, e.g looking around or looking at the speedometer-and-then-back up when driving. Sometimes when I'm reading in bight light, as I move my eyes it looks like there's a swarm of hairs and gnats and one big wingless-fly swimming around in front of my left eye. I'm told I have quite a few of these in my right eye as well, but I rarely notice them in that one.
Now, opthamologists will dismissively tell you to "just get used to" these intrusive little buggers, and they also insist that there is no way that drugs or supplements can cause or treat them.
But I really have to wonder...especially given the fact that the floaters began apearing (i.e., forming, getting larger, or becoming more noticeable to me) shortly after I started the Serzone and Provigil. For one thing, I wonder if the anti-cholinergic and drying effects of these or other meds could somehow lead to changes in the vitreous that could encourage formation of the protein strands. (No room to go into the details of my specific hypothesis on this count, or for that matter to talk about the medically-differentiated varieties of floaters here.)
What intrigues me is the thought that maybe somehow the meds are making existing floaters more *visible* to me. It IS acknowledged that many peoples find their floaters more "active" after they've gotten insufficient sleep, which might suggest that perception -- the brain -- could play a big part, beyond the characteristics of the actual floaters.
Carrying that thought further, I know that visual side-effects from Serzone are being reported more and more -- far more than for any other AD. (I saw a recent FDA report on this.) And while the reported effects involve mainly things like shimmering, trailers, and spots (not the same as floaters), I wonder if the same mechanisms that cause these perceptual effects (via the optic nerve??) could also heighten perception of the physical floaters, i.e. make them more visible and darker-looking. Serzone is largely a serotonin receptor antagonist, and apparently the eye is rife with serotonin receptors -- although I can't honestly say I understand how this could lead to increased floater awareness. As for Provigil, A) It's a fairly new drug with limited post-marketing side effect data and B) I saw one study in Medline that found two purported primary brain sites of action for Provigil, with one of those referred to as a *pre-optic* region. Does that suggest that perhaps Provigil's alertness-building effect could cause heightened sensitivity in the optic nerve, and thus perhaps make me more attuned to those floater shadows on the retina?? If it sounds like I don't know exactly what I'm talking about, that's because I really don't, but it sure "feels" as if there might be some connections here.
Meanwhile, there is esentially no research on floaters or a way to treat them since opthamologists consider them a medical non-issue. Run-of-the-mill floaters are indeed a non-issue. But for those of us plagued by nasty ones (and as bad as mine are there are people who have it nuch worse!), they're very much an issue. Funny how there are hundreds of studies on benign tinnitus -- which I have but which doesn't bother me at all -- while smug and dismissive opthamologists seem to think if someone complains that their quality of life is diminished by these "swarming eye insects" then they must be obsessive whiners or psychologicaly impaired.
I'm really tempted to stop the Serzone and or Provigil for awhile to see if these things possibly become less visible (although I'm frankly not optimistic...and if the med(s) DID have a role in the *physical* formation, I highly doubt that would be reversible). But, even though I do quite well on Klonopin alone, the combo with Serzone and Provigil serves me so well and with so few side effects that I'm really hesitant to back off even temporarily (although I wouldn't hesitate if I thought there was a STRONG chance that these were causing that daily -- though mostly daytime due to the floaters' "attraction" to light -- swirl of garbage I have to live with in my left eye.
Any thoughts? Is there anyone else out there with bothersome vitreous floaters whose presence has been verified by an eye doctor? Did they appear, or change in appearance (for better or worse) with initiation, discontinuance, or change in any meds or supplements you're taking? If so, which meds?
Rick
Posted by Mitch on October 31, 2001, at 11:51:32
In reply to Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters, posted by Rick on October 31, 2001, at 2:00:52
> What intrigues me is the thought that maybe somehow the meds are making existing floaters more *visible* to me. It IS acknowledged that many peoples find their floaters more "active" after they've gotten insufficient sleep, which might suggest that perception -- the brain -- could play a big part, beyond the characteristics of the actual floaters.
>I would have to agree to some extent here. BTW, when I was on higher dosages of Neurontin I noticed that my visual field seemed "cleaned" and "clearer", almost a "Windex" effect of sorts (I know that is really weird). There was also less "white noise" in my vision (looking in the darkness-there was less "graininess"). Maybe the anti-convulsant effect slowed the firing of the neurons in my retina enough to "clean up" my vision??
Posted by susan C on October 31, 2001, at 14:07:19
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters » Rick, posted by Mitch on October 31, 2001, at 11:51:32
Hello,
Warrry interestink, How old are you?
I went to optomitrist and complained about floaters (in one eye only) I asked him to please look for and remove the bits of dust in my eye, as I couldn't seem to get them and he explained, and it was backed up by net searches, that floaters come as a result of the natural aging process and the drying of the gel between the cornea and retina...there was no way to remove them.
I also got bifocals on my 40th birthday, so I am aging right on time...I am 50 now.
now, you have got me thinking, and next time I see him, i will check my dates, and see if there is a correlation between this occurance and the time I took Serzone. I would be curious if this 'drying' hypothesis of your also would apply to Prozac. I had terrible 'dry eyes' while I took it, having to use water, or drops in the middle of the night, my eyes were so dry, as was my mouth and oh and then the constipation... I have not noticed this with AC depakote, other than some metalic dryish mouth tho...
Mitch, I am curious about your description of the 'static' in your vision and the reports of a perception of increased clarity...when I tried to explain in to my very patient optometrist, he thought about it for some time, then called me and said he thought it might be that I am much more 'sensitive' visually than other people, and what i am seeing is a 'residual' of light impression on the retina. I describe it like the snow you see on a 'blank' tv screen, only reversed, with the back being black...he had never heard of anything like this before.
When I was coming off of Keppra, I noticed one evening I felt like I was seeing much clearer. But I think that is was a very subjective observation.
mouse with bifocals
susan Cp.s. there was another post about this earlier, you would probably get to it by 'floater' search...
Posted by Mitch on October 31, 2001, at 23:37:23
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters, posted by susan C on October 31, 2001, at 14:07:19
> Hello,
>
> Warrry interestink, How old are you?41
>
> I went to optomitrist and complained about floaters (in one eye only) I asked him to please look for and remove the bits of dust in my eye, as I couldn't seem to get them and he explained, and it was backed up by net searches, that floaters come as a result of the natural aging process and the drying of the gel between the cornea and retina...there was no way to remove them.
I generally believe that is true-I just don't like the *acceleration* of their occurence over a given unit of time!> I also got bifocals on my 40th birthday, so I am aging right on time...I am 50 now.
>
> now, you have got me thinking, and next time I see him, i will check my dates, and see if there is a correlation between this occurance and the time I took Serzone. I would be curious if this 'drying' hypothesis of your also would apply to Prozac. I had terrible 'dry eyes' while I took it, having to use water, or drops in the middle of the night, my eyes were so dry, as was my mouth and oh and then the constipation... I have not noticed this with AC depakote, other than some metalic dryish mouth tho...
>
> Mitch, I am curious about your description of the 'static' in your vision and the reports of a perception of increased clarity...when I tried to explain in to my very patient optometrist, he thought about it for some time, then called me and said he thought it might be that I am much more 'sensitive' visually than other people, and what i am seeing is a 'residual' of light impression on the retina. I describe it like the snow you see on a 'blank' tv screen, only reversed, with the back being black...he had never heard of anything like this before.Meds do change that somehow, it is a little difficult to explain. The best way to check it out is to be in a relatively brightly lit room and then walk into a dark one (not necessarily totally dark), and look around. You will see the *afterimage* or rather "after-firing" of your retinal neurons. I have noticed that AD's like Prozac (especially) *increase* this "after-firing" effect, while AC's like Neurontin/Depakote seems to dampen them down. Just another weird experiment to consider.
:)
>
> When I was coming off of Keppra, I noticed one evening I felt like I was seeing much clearer. But I think that is was a very subjective observation.
>
> mouse with bifocals
> susan C
>
> p.s. there was another post about this earlier, you would probably get to it by 'floater' search...
Posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 1:09:00
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters, posted by susan C on October 31, 2001, at 14:07:19
Floaters do become more common with age, and also the more nearsighted one is. Interestingly, though, elderly people seem the least attuned to and least bothered by them, while the youngest folks tend to get the most disturbed. Even kids can get bothersome floaters, though that's not too common.
I believe what you described is vitreal detachment, a usually benign and common (especially with aging) occurence where the vitreous gel contracts (probably from the drying-out ou mentioned) and pulls away from the retina, sometimes leaving fragments that float around. But there are other ways they can form, including syneresis (liquification of part of the vitreous) or even from "excess" blood cells remaining in the eye at birth that later appear as floaters.
I'm not that much younger than you, and assumed I must have had an early vitreous detachment, but it turns out that like many young people, I have none of the usual causes. The strands just formed for some reason. ****That makes me all the more suspicious of medications.****
99% of opthamologists will tell you there is no treatment for floaters. That's not quite right, although the possible treatments are less than appealing. Floaters CAN be removed by vitrectomy surgery (removal of the entire vitreous, replaced by saline), but most opthamologists would be aghast at the thought of performing this admittedly risky surgery soley for floaters.
There are two opthomologists in the country who use a special kind of laser to treat floaters, but there is some question about how effective this is (and perhaps some long-term safety questions). My impression is that for certain kinds of floaters the laser treatment may work, but for others they'll just end up zapping bigger floaters into lots of smaller strands.
Thanks for pointing out the previous posts. Most people seemed to be referring to te squiggly, transparent, amoeba-like kinds of objects floating around. I've actually had those since I was a kid; they would just float by every once in awhile, a fun little curiosity. I used to think that this was something entirely different than the dark hairy monsters and spots I now contend with, but lately I've noticed that when I stare cross-eyed at the floaters, I can see that some of them are those same types of objects, just a lot darker.
Perhaps the ones that end up appearing as hairs or blobs are simply "transparent squiggles" that have formed (or moved) closer to the retina, thus casting a more intense shadow. Or maybe they have grown more dense as more protein cells have bound to them.
But the fact that even the transparent squiqqles looked more apparent to posters here when they were taking certain meds, or experiencing certain physical events, adds fodder to my suspicion that mine *might* just become less noticeable sans cerain meds.
If you're interested in reading more about bad floaters, and hearing personal woe stories and quests for solutions, check out the Floater Discussion Group:
http://pub44.ezboard.com/bfloatertalk
In any event, please let us know what you determine about the timing of your own floaters vs. your Serzone use!
Rick
> Hello,
>
> Warrry interestink, How old are you?
>
> I went to optomitrist and complained about floaters (in one eye only) I asked him to please look for and remove the bits of dust in my eye, as I couldn't seem to get them and he explained, and it was backed up by net searches, that floaters come as a result of the natural aging process and the drying of the gel between the cornea and retina...there was no way to remove them.
>
> I also got bifocals on my 40th birthday, so I am aging right on time...I am 50 now.
>
> now, you have got me thinking, and next time I see him, i will check my dates, and see if there is a correlation between this occurance and the time I took Serzone. I would be curious if this 'drying' hypothesis of your also would apply to Prozac. I had terrible 'dry eyes' while I took it, having to use water, or drops in the middle of the night, my eyes were so dry, as was my mouth and oh and then the constipation... I have not noticed this with AC depakote, other than some metalic dryish mouth tho...
>
> Mitch, I am curious about your description of the 'static' in your vision and the reports of a perception of increased clarity...when I tried to explain in to my very patient optometrist, he thought about it for some time, then called me and said he thought it might be that I am much more 'sensitive' visually than other people, and what i am seeing is a 'residual' of light impression on the retina. I describe it like the snow you see on a 'blank' tv screen, only reversed, with the back being black...he had never heard of anything like this before.
>
> When I was coming off of Keppra, I noticed one evening I felt like I was seeing much clearer. But I think that is was a very subjective observation.
>
> mouse with bifocals
> susan C
>
> p.s. there was another post about this earlier, you would probably get to it by 'floater' search...
Posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 1:25:11
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters » Rick, posted by Mitch on October 31, 2001, at 11:51:32
> > What intrigues me is the thought that maybe somehow the meds are making existing floaters more *visible* to me. It IS acknowledged that many peoples find their floaters more "active" after they've gotten insufficient sleep, which might suggest that perception -- the brain -- could play a big part, beyond the characteristics of the actual floaters.
> >
>
> I would have to agree to some extent here. BTW, when I was on higher dosages of Neurontin I noticed that my visual field seemed "cleaned" and "clearer", almost a "Windex" effect of sorts (I know that is really weird). There was also less "white noise" in my vision (looking in the darkness-there was less "graininess"). Maybe the anti-convulsant effect slowed the firing of the neurons in my retina enough to "clean up" my vision??Can't say I noticed that when I was taking Neurontin. Maybe your Neurontin was fortified with Ammonium-D? Hey, come to think of it, Bristol-Myers-Squibb, the manufacturer of Serzone, used to make Windex! There HAS to be some connection here.
Seriously, it IS interesting what kinds of visual effects psychotropics can have, whether or not they increase floater perception. I ran across an article recently (I forget where) railing about how visual effects, some irreversible, are a highly under-publicized effect of psychotropics.
I've seen some posts here in the past where people said they have to change their eye prescriptions every time they start or stop taking certain meds.
Rick
Posted by Mitch on November 1, 2001, at 9:45:27
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters » Mitch, posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 1:25:11
>
> Seriously, it IS interesting what kinds of visual effects psychotropics can have, whether or not they increase floater perception. I ran across an article recently (I forget where) railing about how visual effects, some irreversible, are a highly under-publicized effect of psychotropics.
>
> I've seen some posts here in the past where people said they have to change their eye prescriptions every time they start or stop taking certain meds.
>
> RickOh, there was one thing I didn't mention. I DO have a *cataract* in my right eye. It is very small, but unfortunately right smack near the center of my focal vision! This cataract appeared suddenly one morning when I woke up about 15 years ago-I was just 26. Interestingly, I had been taking low-dose Mellaril for about two-three years. Mellaril (and other AP's) can cause that, BTW. ALSO, when I had the slit-lamp exam a couple of years ago that confirmed a cataract was what was causing the blurry spot in my right eye-the doc also mentioned that one of my eyes had some retinal pigmentation (Mellaril can also cause that).
Mitch
Posted by Simcha on November 1, 2001, at 12:40:27
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters » Mitch, posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 1:25:11
I've complained about floaters recently... ;-(
The pharmacist and the pdoc have told me that medication cannot possibly be causing them. They claim it is just aging.... Hey! I'm only 31. (Of course I'm losing a little hair and that was happening before meds. 'Damn Genetics!!!' Oh and I have plenty of gray already. 'Again, Damn Genetics!!!')
The floaters did not start until the pdoc started me on Celexa. I have one in my left eye that has been particularly annoying. I'm noticing it less lately. I wonder if it's just that I've gotten used to it?
Personally I think that the Celexa either caused me to notice the floater. Maybe I was more calm and I slowed down enough to see the floater. -OR- The Celexa really caused the floater.
If this is a side-effect, and there are many others who are complaining about this while taking ADs, why the cover-up? What's the big deal? Are we liable to go blind and they don't want to tell us?
Ok, I better stop or the pdoc will want to add another med for paranoia! ;-)
Take Care,
Simcha.
> > > What intrigues me is the thought that maybe somehow the meds are making existing floaters more *visible* to me. It IS acknowledged that many peoples find their floaters more "active" after they've gotten insufficient sleep, which might suggest that perception -- the brain -- could play a big part, beyond the characteristics of the actual floaters.
> > >
> >
> > I would have to agree to some extent here. BTW, when I was on higher dosages of Neurontin I noticed that my visual field seemed "cleaned" and "clearer", almost a "Windex" effect of sorts (I know that is really weird). There was also less "white noise" in my vision (looking in the darkness-there was less "graininess"). Maybe the anti-convulsant effect slowed the firing of the neurons in my retina enough to "clean up" my vision??
>
> Can't say I noticed that when I was taking Neurontin. Maybe your Neurontin was fortified with Ammonium-D? Hey, come to think of it, Bristol-Myers-Squibb, the manufacturer of Serzone, used to make Windex! There HAS to be some connection here.
>
> Seriously, it IS interesting what kinds of visual effects psychotropics can have, whether or not they increase floater perception. I ran across an article recently (I forget where) railing about how visual effects, some irreversible, are a highly under-publicized effect of psychotropics.
>
> I've seen some posts here in the past where people said they have to change their eye prescriptions every time they start or stop taking certain meds.
>
> Rick
Posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 16:27:00
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters » Rick, posted by Mitch on November 1, 2001, at 9:45:27
> >
> > Seriously, it IS interesting what kinds of visual effects psychotropics can have, whether or not they increase floater perception. I ran across an article recently (I forget where) railing about how visual effects, some irreversible, are a highly under-publicized effect of psychotropics.
> >
> > I've seen some posts here in the past where people said they have to change their eye prescriptions every time they start or stop taking certain meds.
> >
> > Rick
>
> Oh, there was one thing I didn't mention. I DO have a *cataract* in my right eye. It is very small, but unfortunately right smack near the center of my focal vision! This cataract appeared suddenly one morning when I woke up about 15 years ago-I was just 26. Interestingly, I had been taking low-dose Mellaril for about two-three years. Mellaril (and other AP's) can cause that, BTW. ALSO, when I had the slit-lamp exam a couple of years ago that confirmed a cataract was what was causing the blurry spot in my right eye-the doc also mentioned that one of my eyes had some retinal pigmentation (Mellaril can also cause that).
>
> MitchIt does make you wonder...
Sorry to hear about the cataract. Have you considered treatment, or is that unadvisable for this type of cataract?
Rick
Posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 17:45:04
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters, posted by Simcha on November 1, 2001, at 12:40:27
>The floaters did not start until the pdoc started me on Celexa. I have one in my left eye that has been particularly annoying. I'm noticing it less lately. I wonder if it's just that I've gotten used to it?
One thing opthamoligists like to say to calm people who seem distressed by floaters is that they can sometimes be spontaneously reabsorbed into the vitreous, i.e. go away. Fortunately for some, this really can happen sometimes, and you may have been lucky enough to have just such a "remission". OTOH, maybe you DID get used to it if it wasn't an extremely intrusive floater.
>Personally I think that the Celexa either caused me to notice the floater. Maybe I was more calm and I slowed down enough to see the floater. -OR- The Celexa really caused the floater.
Hmmm, I was taking Celexa before I switched to Sezone. I even took them together for awhile. But the "main" floater didn't appear until after I had on on Serzone (and Provigil) awhile.
>If this is a side-effect, and there are many others who are complaining about this while taking ADs, why the cover-up? What's the big deal? Are we liable to go blind and they don't want to tell us?
Despite the huge number of people taking certain meds, it's amazing how long some of the drug-induced side-effects can take to be recognized. There ARE some side-effect clearinghouses, but I'm sure they end up with only a fraction of reports on the previously "unknown" side effects.
Then there are more complicating factors:
-- Something reported by 2% of users is going to
get less attention than an effect reported by
15% -- even if it's a serious medical or
quality-of-life issue.
-- The effect may be gradual and insidious,
meaning patients and doctors might not make
the connection to the med; or many of the
drugs users may not take it long enough to
see a given effect. This is all especially
true for effects which can also occur in the
absence of the med. ("It's just a natural
part of aging).
-- Many, if not most, of the time, the suspected
side effect really ISN'T caused by the med.
But when it IS, getting even a strong base
of *anecdotal* evidence can be difficult for
various reasons.
-- Economics and marketing: Look how Smith
Kline allegedly
swept their knowledge of Paxil withdrawal
under the carpet. They said it rarely
happens and even in those cases where they
admit it's occurence it was downplayed and
dubbed with the gentle-sounding
"discontinuation efects" when its really
plain old withdrawal symptoms.And vision effects, while significant, are
probably a lot less common than Paxil
withdrawal (at least in the short term), and
they don't come at you
like a runaway train.Finally, say on the subject of floaters,
who is going to fund a study of whether
say, Serzone users are more likely to
develop or perceive them. Surely not the
manufacturer who wants to keep their market
share high. And in the case of floaters
it surely wouldn't be opthamologsts, who
think anyone who could be bothered
by a benign floater -- even if it interferes
with daily activities like driving or computer
work -- is a crybaby. (Although I can assure
you that if someone developed a safe and
effective floater-removal procedure using
easy-to-obtain equipment, opthamologists
would be all over it. I.e., they would
all have dollar-sign shaped floaters filling
their eyes. The new "lasik"? Suddenly they'd
be trying to get their patients to detect the
smallest floater, and telling them how much
their lives would be improved by undergoing
the new "Flosik" procedure.)Since I've let this devolve into a rant against Opthamologists, I should point out that I thank God for them for doing all they can to prevent blindness. But having worked with GP's and many kinds of specialists, I can say that Eye Doctors tend to have the most smug, parochial mindset of all of them. They have tunnelvision. They need to open their eyes and think a little more holistically. End of Rant.
Oh, one more thing while we're on the subject of side effects? Always remeber that SSRI's -- especially Celexa and Luvox and Prozac and Zoloft -- have a very low incidence of sexual dysfunction. When it does occur, it's usually caused by unresolved depression, not the med. It's amazing how long many or most doctors bought into this, and the drug companies insisted it was true -- even if you DO take into account that some docs or patients might have been reticent to discuss this!
Posted by Mitch on November 1, 2001, at 23:47:28
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters, posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 16:27:00
> > >
> > > Seriously, it IS interesting what kinds of visual effects psychotropics can have, whether or not they increase floater perception. I ran across an article recently (I forget where) railing about how visual effects, some irreversible, are a highly under-publicized effect of psychotropics.
> > >
> > > I've seen some posts here in the past where people said they have to change their eye prescriptions every time they start or stop taking certain meds.
> > >
> > > Rick
> >
> > Oh, there was one thing I didn't mention. I DO have a *cataract* in my right eye. It is very small, but unfortunately right smack near the center of my focal vision! This cataract appeared suddenly one morning when I woke up about 15 years ago-I was just 26. Interestingly, I had been taking low-dose Mellaril for about two-three years. Mellaril (and other AP's) can cause that, BTW. ALSO, when I had the slit-lamp exam a couple of years ago that confirmed a cataract was what was causing the blurry spot in my right eye-the doc also mentioned that one of my eyes had some retinal pigmentation (Mellaril can also cause that).
> >
> > Mitch
>
> It does make you wonder...
>
> Sorry to hear about the cataract. Have you considered treatment, or is that unadvisable for this type of cataract?
>
> RickRick,
They can remove the cataract, but the doc won't do it unless it begins to progress suddenly. So far it has stayed its same little size. My brain even has gotten used to it being there-because I have to sequentially open and shut my eyes to be certain which eye is affected! I just see an opthamologist/surgeon once a year and they dilate my pupils and do a slit-lamp exam to see if it it growing or worsening. If it starts to take off then I guess action will be required.
Mitch
Posted by Jane D on November 2, 2001, at 0:45:23
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters » Rick, posted by Mitch on November 1, 2001, at 23:47:28
After reading this thread I became aware of all the floaters - many more than when I last noticed. It was an entire day until I could partially ignore them again. - Jane
Posted by Simcha on November 2, 2001, at 7:37:29
In reply to Re: Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters » Simcha, posted by Rick on November 1, 2001, at 17:45:04
Rick,
> Oh, one more thing while we're on the subject of side effects? Always remeber that SSRI's -- especially Celexa and Luvox and Prozac and Zoloft -- have a very low incidence of sexual dysfunction. When it does occur, it's usually caused by unresolved depression, not the med. It's amazing how long many or most doctors bought into this, and the drug companies insisted it was true -- even if you DO take into account that some docs or patients might have been reticent to discuss this!
That's very intersting!
Now that you mention this let me fill in the board on my progress in this arena. I have now been on medication since January. Long about May or June the pdoc switched me from Effexor to Wellbutrin and then added Celexa. I've been suffering from sexual dysfunction for most of the year. At the beginning it was definitely the depression because I had sexual dysfunction before the meds.
Of course I was dealing with some heavy childhood sexual abuse issues in therapy and dealing with those issues had knocked out my libido before.
Now I do have to say that while I was on Effexor (which is not an SSRI.. It's an SNRI) I was numb from the waste down.
After being on the other meds for about 6 months and having recently increased the Wellbutrin, I have acheived relief from the depression AND relief from the sexual dysfunction. In fact my orgasms have never been better!!!!
Now when I orgasm I just keep going. It comes in waves. I swear I have multiple orgasms now... I never knew this was possible for men!!!!
I'm not sure if this is due the release of the depression's grip after finally having enough meds to kick it's butt. Possibly for the first time I'm really in almost complete remission and on enough medication. I have read that doctors tend to under-medicate!
I never looked at it from this angle before. Perhaps my returning libido and sexual function is more a function of the depression leaving me. Hmm. Werrry Interesteeenk! ;-)
Posted by Rick on November 2, 2001, at 12:00:55
In reply to Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters +Sex » Rick, posted by Simcha on November 2, 2001, at 7:37:29
> Perhaps my returning libido and sexual function is more a function of the depression leaving me. Hmm.
Yes, the sexual good news could very likely be due to that, and/or other factors such as the Wellbutrin helping counteract sexual dysfunction... and/or your body finally dveloping tolerance to the sexual inhibition caused by the other drugs (this does happen for some people, although it usually takes at least a few months).
Given the extent of your sexual recovery, I'd wager that the Wellbutrin is probably contributing, mediated by Wellbutrin's dopaminergic or general stimulant mechanisms. For that matter, if you're up to a fairly high dose of Effexor, it could be helping through intensified adrenergic effects (not too sure about that one, but it sounds feasible).
Regardless, its great to hear things are working out for you!
Rick
Posted by Shar on November 3, 2001, at 18:16:14
In reply to Psychotropic Meds and #$!@! Vitreous Floaters +Sex » Rick, posted by Simcha on November 2, 2001, at 7:37:29
> Rick,x
>
> > Oh, one more thing while we're on the subject of side effects? Always remeber that SSRI's -- especially Celexa and Luvox and Prozac and Zoloft -- have a very low incidence of sexual dysfunction. When it does occur, it's usually caused by unresolved depression, not the med. It's amazing how long many or most doctors bought into this, and the drug companies insisted it was true -- even if you DO take into account that some docs or patients might have been reticent to discuss this!
>
> That's very intersting!
>
> Now that you mention this let me fill in the board on my progress in this arena. I have now been on medication since January. Long about May or June the pdoc switched me from Effexor to Wellbutrin and then added Celexa. I've been suffering from sexual dysfunction for most of the year. At the beginning it was definitely the depression because I had sexual dysfunction before the meds.
>
> Of course I was dealing with some heavy childhood sexual abuse issues in therapy and dealing with those issues had knocked out my libido before.
>
> Now I do have to say that while I was on Effexor (which is not an SSRI.. It's an SNRI) I was numb from the waste down.
>
> After being on the other meds for about 6 months and having recently increased the Wellbutrin, I have acheived relief from the depression AND relief from the sexual dysfunction. In fact my orgasms have never been better!!!!
>
> Now when I orgasm I just keep going. It comes in waves. I swear I have multiple orgasms now... I never knew this was possible for men!!!!
>
> I'm not sure if this is due the release of the depression's grip after finally having enough meds to kick it's butt. Possibly for the first time I'm really in almost complete remission and on enough medication. I have read that doctors tend to under-medicate!
>
> I never looked at it from this angle before. Perhaps my returning libido and sexual function is more a function of the depression leaving me. Hmm. Werrry Interesteeenk! ;-)
This is the end of the thread.
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