Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 78515

Shown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by NLFAmerica on September 10, 2001, at 19:27:01

The National Liberation Front of the American mentally ill was created with one purpose. To free the oppressed mentally ill from the idea they have a "mental problem." If you have a so called mental illness what you really have is a physical brain function problem. It is the year 2001 and time for the world to recognize that severe mental illnesses are nothing but brain based physical illnesses. The term "mental illness" is a misnomer and is incorrect.

Mental illness should be diagnosed and treated by brain science medical experts. Psychiatrists and psychologists do not fit into this category. Neurologists however do. The NLF of America proposes that Psychiatry be formally merged into Neurology. This would improve the climate that surrounds the treatment of the mentally ill.

Specifically the NLF of America proposes the following:

1) Formally combining the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS). This new government research agency would then be called the National Institute for Brain Research. Biological research for severe mental illness would be given the same priority that research into other neurological illnesses gets.

2) Formally merging all University teaching hospital Psychiatry departments with Neurology departments at the same school. Departments of psychiatry should not exist separately with departments of Neurology. They should be one and the same. Only this way will severe mental illness ever be recognized for what it really is. Brain function problems ie; neuropsychiatric diseases. Future psychiatrists would instead become Neurologists. Psychiatry as a separate branch of medicine would cease to exist.

Formally combining psychiatry into Neurology in the long run would lead to dramatically improved, high tech based methods of diagnosing and treating severe forms of mental illness. Current approaches in psychiatry are oftentimes ineffective at accurately diagnosing and successfully treating severe forms of mental illness. Much of the reason for this is psychiatry's strong residual base in psychology and not in real medical neuroscience.

I certify all of the above things are true,

National Liberation Front of the American Mentally Ill

 

Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology » NLFAmerica

Posted by Cam W. on September 10, 2001, at 19:33:27

In reply to Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology, posted by NLFAmerica on September 10, 2001, at 19:27:01

NFL - Hmmm.... Where would you put PSTD, CFS, and neuropathic pain? It is true that when one figures out the "cause" of a psychiatric illness, it is shuffled off to another disicipline (eg. neurosyphilis or pellagra), but I think that it is premature to move all remaining psychiatric illnesses to neurology (although many should be).

- Cam

 

Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology » Cam W.

Posted by susan C on September 10, 2001, at 19:42:01

In reply to Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology » NLFAmerica, posted by Cam W. on September 10, 2001, at 19:33:27

have psychiatrists go to school longer...add neurology, have them all take more school, never get out, lock them in cages and zap them with electrodes, participate in their own experiments. I am not so sure that redefineing anything would help. Educating medical consumers will. Getting someone to help you as a medical advocate, don't be alone, is top on my list. Just because some of us aren't immediately helped by 'take two asprin and call me in the morning' doesnt mean that the baby should go out with the bath water.

Just mumbling to myself in the corner,
The lab mouse
Susan C

> NFL - Hmmm.... Where would you put PSTD, CFS, and neuropathic pain? It is true that when one figures out the "cause" of a psychiatric illness, it is shuffled off to another disicipline (eg. neurosyphilis or pellagra), but I think that it is premature to move all remaining psychiatric illnesses to neurology (although many should be).
>
> - Cam

 

Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by akc on September 10, 2001, at 20:30:33

In reply to Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology » Cam W., posted by susan C on September 10, 2001, at 19:42:01

Working off a thread above, I am addicted to my therapist, a psychologist, and love every moment of it. Mr. (or Ms.) NLFAmerica -- I do believe you are giving a one size fits all approach -- and I do believe that the problems that exist and the world is much broader than that. As the saying would go, can't we all just get along?

akc

> have psychiatrists go to school longer...add neurology, have them all take more school, never get out, lock them in cages and zap them with electrodes, participate in their own experiments. I am not so sure that redefineing anything would help. Educating medical consumers will. Getting someone to help you as a medical advocate, don't be alone, is top on my list. Just because some of us aren't immediately helped by 'take two asprin and call me in the morning' doesnt mean that the baby should go out with the bath water.
>
> Just mumbling to myself in the corner,
> The lab mouse
> Susan C
>
> > NFL - Hmmm.... Where would you put PSTD, CFS, and neuropathic pain? It is true that when one figures out the "cause" of a psychiatric illness, it is shuffled off to another disicipline (eg. neurosyphilis or pellagra), but I think that it is premature to move all remaining psychiatric illnesses to neurology (although many should be).
> >
> > - Cam

 

Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by akc on September 10, 2001, at 21:14:28

In reply to Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology, posted by NLFAmerica on September 10, 2001, at 19:27:01

I just can't stand this -- I love my psychiatrist also -- she has done a damned good job diagnosing my illness and treating it. She has not treated it as a "problem" but as an illness. I'm offended on her behalf.

I guess I don't see the point of this post in the grand scheme of things. At least in its tone. I try to do my part to get parity for treatment of the mentally ill, to reduce stigma by those in the workforce or those I casually meet, to act as an advocate. In fact, it is my goal if I ever get out of the debt I put myself in when I was in the depths of my illness to work fulltime as an advocate.

This post makes me think we are suppose to go drive spikes in trees or burn down buildings. It also appears to slight many psychiatrists -- most I imagine who understand that it is an illness and work hard both in research and in practice to treat it as the brain disorder it is. Why not merge neurolgy into pyschiatry?

You want to act as an advocate to advance the treatment of the mentally ill, here is something much more immediate -- be writing your senators right now. There is legislation pending in the Senate that would bring parity under most insurance for payment for treatment of mental illnesses. If it passes the Senate, it still would then have to go to the House then the President. For more information, go to NAMI's home page. There is nothing radical about this. Just seeking to have medical insurance pay the same for mental health claims as they do for other claims. If this passes, it would have an immediate impact in helping people get treatment that they cannot afford. Now, not in some theoretical future. Plus, it puts an end to something that smacks of stigma.

And I don't even have some catchy name. Damn -- I'll work on that.

akc


> The National Liberation Front of the American mentally ill was created with one purpose. To free the oppressed mentally ill from the idea they have a "mental problem." If you have a so called mental illness what you really have is a physical brain function problem. It is the year 2001 and time for the world to recognize that severe mental illnesses are nothing but brain based physical illnesses. The term "mental illness" is a misnomer and is incorrect.
>
> Mental illness should be diagnosed and treated by brain science medical experts. Psychiatrists and psychologists do not fit into this category. Neurologists however do. The NLF of America proposes that Psychiatry be formally merged into Neurology. This would improve the climate that surrounds the treatment of the mentally ill.
>
> Specifically the NLF of America proposes the following:
>
> 1) Formally combining the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS). This new government research agency would then be called the National Institute for Brain Research. Biological research for severe mental illness would be given the same priority that research into other neurological illnesses gets.
>
> 2) Formally merging all University teaching hospital Psychiatry departments with Neurology departments at the same school. Departments of psychiatry should not exist separately with departments of Neurology. They should be one and the same. Only this way will severe mental illness ever be recognized for what it really is. Brain function problems ie; neuropsychiatric diseases. Future psychiatrists would instead become Neurologists. Psychiatry as a separate branch of medicine would cease to exist.
>
> Formally combining psychiatry into Neurology in the long run would lead to dramatically improved, high tech based methods of diagnosing and treating severe forms of mental illness. Current approaches in psychiatry are oftentimes ineffective at accurately diagnosing and successfully treating severe forms of mental illness. Much of the reason for this is psychiatry's strong residual base in psychology and not in real medical neuroscience.
>
> I certify all of the above things are true,
>
> National Liberation Front of the American Mentally Ill

 

Well said as always AKC! read above post ^^^ (nm)

Posted by willow on September 10, 2001, at 21:34:23

In reply to Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology, posted by akc on September 10, 2001, at 21:14:28

 

Re: Psychiatry into Neurology (long reply) » NLFAmerica

Posted by Jane D on September 10, 2001, at 23:43:05

In reply to Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology, posted by NLFAmerica on September 10, 2001, at 19:27:01

> The National Liberation Front of the American mentally ill was created with one purpose. To free the oppressed mentally ill from the idea they have a "mental problem." If you have a so called mental illness what you really have is a physical brain function problem. It is the year 2001 and time for the world to recognize that severe mental illnesses are nothing but brain based physical illnesses. The term "mental illness" is a misnomer and is incorrect.

START OF REPLIES:
---- "Mental illness" often IS a brain based physical illness. In itself it describes symptoms. It can imply whatever else we choose to make it imply. Theories about the cause of mental illness change over time, as they do in every other disease. And many of us do have a "mental problem". That problem is the way that the illness effects and sometimes impairs the way that we perceive the world. It is different from other types of illness in this respect and it is a real and very severe problem.


> Mental illness should be diagnosed and treated by brain science medical experts. Psychiatrists and psychologists do not fit into this category. Neurologists however do. The NLF of America proposes that Psychiatry be formally merged into Neurology. This would improve the climate that surrounds the treatment of the mentally ill.


Psychiatrists can no longer be grouped with psychologists. This is a done deal. And a merger is as likely to make the climate surrounding neurological problems worse as to improve the status of the mentally ill. There is something especially frightening about mental illness to most people (including those of us who suffer from it I think). If people want to stigmatize us they are going to do so no matter how many name changes you make.


> Specifically the NLF of America proposes the following:

> 1) Formally combining the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS). This new government research agency would then be called the National Institute for Brain Research. Biological research for severe mental illness would be given the same priority that research into other neurological illnesses gets.


---- Sure. Why not? I doubt this will increase the total pool but if we get more of it - great. Of course all our funding could go to stroke research instead.

> 2) Formally merging all University teaching hospital Psychiatry departments with Neurology departments at the same school. Departments of psychiatry should not exist separately with departments of Neurology. They should be one and the same. Only this way will severe mental illness ever be recognized for what it really is. Brain function problems ie; neuropsychiatric diseases. Future psychiatrists would instead become Neurologists. Psychiatry as a separate branch of medicine would cease to exist.


---- Again - the change in ideas about causality has already occured. As you said above, it IS 2001. You want to merge departments at the same time that other specialties are subdividing more due to the increased amount of information that there is to master. Some cross training is fine but just how many years are your new psycho-neurologists expected to spend in training? And how much good will it really do me to get my antidepressants from an expert in strokes. Are you really that sure that antidepressants will have no place in this new science?

> Formally combining psychiatry into Neurology in the long run would lead to dramatically improved, high tech based methods of diagnosing and treating severe forms of mental illness. Current approaches in psychiatry are oftentimes ineffective at accurately diagnosing and successfully treating severe forms of mental illness. Much of the reason for this is psychiatry's strong residual base in psychology and not in real medical neuroscience.


---- Perhaps in the future this will be true but at this point neuroscience doesn't offer much in the way of diagnosing these problems. Psychiatry, while not perfect, does.

---- In summary I think that much of what you advocate has already happened. Some of it never will. Combining the two fields organizationally and for research purposes makes some sense but you seem to be suggesting that psychiatry has no knowlege to contribute to the mix. I just don't believe that this is (still) true.

Jane (who thinks psychoanalysts were the plague of the 20th century)

 

?? Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by Chris A. on September 11, 2001, at 0:57:37

In reply to Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology, posted by NLFAmerica on September 10, 2001, at 19:27:01

My pDoc and former pDocs are board certified by The American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. There are dual certifications available. Just the name of the organization that credentials psychiatrists and nuerologists in the US says a lot. My pDoc's board certification is in neuropyschiatry. Check out their web site if you have any questions.

Chris A.
P.S. I'm all for reducing stigma. It begins with being responsible citizens and seeking out treatment that enables us to lead productive and healthy lives despite our pain and limitations. When we are doing better we all need to involved in some sort of advocacy. My little projcet now is to address local clergy with the facts regarding mental illness, as many people seek help from them first.

 

Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by JohnL on September 11, 2001, at 3:38:41

In reply to Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology, posted by NLFAmerica on September 10, 2001, at 19:27:01

I think most of everything suggested could be accomplished by having all psychiatric or neurologic professionals read one simple $30 book. The book takes the position that indeed all metal illnesses are physical chemical malfunctions in the brain. The book tells how to try different medicines, and why, and then how to read the clues from those trials to better understand what chemistry malfunction(s) to focus on for each unique patient.

Call it psychiatry, call it neurology, call it whatever you want. I think what is missing in the whole game is a rational organized logical strategy to pinpoint what chemistry is awry in a patient's brain. For example, if someone is depressed, the general assumption is that they need an antidepressant. That, in my humble opinion, is a huge error and often leads to disappointment, frustration, and lack of complete remission. Depression can come from a wide variety of different chemical problems, many of which have nothing at all to do with what antidepressants target. In fact, antidepressants can actually make it worse, as we've seen here many times. There needs to be an organized strategy to pinpoint the culprit chemistry in a patients brain, and then once it is identified set the goal of total remission. There is a $30 book on the market that does it all. No big changes, no prolonged study, and no big research needed.

The book, called "The Successful Treatment of Brain Chemical Imbalance", by Dr Martin Jensen, bridges many gaps in the treatment of so called mental illenesses, and provides answers to many perplexing situations we encounter. Whether a person is a psychiatrist, or a neurologist, doesn't matter, this particular book opens up a whole new world of understanding mental illness, how to treat it, why to treat it a certain way, and how do get results fast.

Though I am only one patient who has successfully used the strategies in this book, I am proof that it works. It is just my opinion, but every mental health professional would be a million miles ahead in the game with this one simple book. And in the process, the merger of psychiatry and neurology would occur automatically as a side benefit. No big research needed. No big political changes needed. No formal mergers needed. Just one inexpensive book from a relatively unknown but brilliant doctor in California.
John

 

Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by paxvox on September 11, 2001, at 8:41:02

In reply to Re: Its time to merge Psychiatry into Neurology » Cam W., posted by susan C on September 10, 2001, at 19:42:01

Golly, ya'll gone all philisophical on me while I was out. OK. My brother is a Neurologist, and he would probably chuckle at that suggestion. However, from my own personal experiences, I believe that one should consider going to both Docs and have them collaborate (good luck!). Clearly, IMHO, there are medical conditions that merge between the two specialties, and each should have a better-than- average working knowledge of brain chemisrty and brain diseases that cause similar conditions (e.g. a brain tumor will cause personality changes, generally aggression, depending upon where it is in the brain). My brother told me that when people present with headaches, he commonly prescribes antidepressants when neuro functions are "normal" after testing.

PAX

 

Re: Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by JahL on September 11, 2001, at 8:54:42

In reply to Re: Psychiatry into Neurology (long reply) » NLFAmerica, posted by Jane D on September 10, 2001, at 23:43:05

> >Current approaches in psychiatry are oftentimes ineffective at accurately diagnosing and successfully treating severe forms of mental illness. Much of the reason for this is psychiatry's strong residual base in psychology and not in real medical neuroscience.

> Jane (who thinks psychoanalysts were the plague of the 20th century)

Don't have much to add other than to concur with the above statements. Overweening psychologists & their meddlesome ways have poisoned British psychiatry. IMHO, they, as well as chronic govt. underfunding of health are largely responsible for the terrible state of British mental health services (a malaise that has been frequently documented of late). It may well be 2001 but seemingly many of our pdocs here are yet to catch up.

J (who has been psychoanalysed to death; & not thru choice).

 

Redirect: Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2001, at 11:58:31

In reply to Re: Psychiatry into Neurology , posted by JahL on September 11, 2001, at 8:54:42

> Don't have much to add other than to concur with the above statements...

Interesting discussion, but I'd like for further follow-ups to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.

Bob

 

Redirect: Psychiatry into Neurology

Posted by Dr. Bob on September 12, 2001, at 17:02:39

In reply to Redirect: Psychiatry into Neurology , posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2001, at 11:58:31

> I'd like for further follow-ups to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.

Here's the URL of the redirected discussion:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20010909/msgs/11262.html

Bob


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