![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by Jane D on August 22, 2001, at 10:09:31
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY, posted by stjames on August 21, 2001, at 18:38:31
> > Not unless there was some other form of drug dependency.
> >
> > Rosa, Would you post the same thing on a board for insulin dependent diabetics?
>
> james here.....
>
> Then How is thei board different ?
>
> jamesJane here (I've always appreciated your adding that to long posts)
I think we ARE different. There seems to be a strong suggestion that some addictions are caused by an attempt to self medicate an underlying psychiatric illness. Years can go by in which you wonder why your friends can stop and you can't. Discovering effective meds can be a revelation but you can still be left with an addiction to the other drugs even though they are now unnecessary.
This doesn't seem to be the Narcotics Anonymous message (sponsors of that site) and I'm not sure of the motives of the original post. I'm choosing to give it a positive interpretation and think that it could help people who have chosen to stop using a drug stick with that decision. Still, I'd hope that in making a decision in the first place they would give more weight to sites like this one.
I don't want to mislead anyone by implying personal experience. I was lucky. For me it was only nicotine. But I've known people who weren't so lucky. I think you were luckier still in that you discovered meds so early. Often I am jealous of you for that. At other, more reasonable, times I am relieved and encouraged to know that I too may still be OK after another 20 years has gone by.
Jane
Posted by Jane D on August 22, 2001, at 10:38:15
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY, posted by Rosa on August 22, 2001, at 6:47:00
> The 'Just For Today' post was meant to be helpful to those who have a problem with addiction to prescription medicines.
>
> Do you think that it is possible to be addicted to prescription medicine?Rosa,
Unfortunately I think you just proved st james right in his interpretation of your original post. Why would you expect to find "those with a problem with prescription medicine" here instead of on a diabetes board unless you think that all use is a problem?>
> Do you think drug abuse is a physical (chemical) or an emotional (social) problem?I also think you know the opinion on this of most posters. If this is the real issue you want to argue why not come out and say so?
Jane
Posted by Simcha on August 22, 2001, at 10:59:01
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY, posted by Rosa on August 22, 2001, at 6:47:00
Here is a tasteless stab at humor from the folks at The Onion. It is a joke newspaper and this article happens to be on-target for this discussion:
Enjoy!!! ;-)
http://www.theonion.com/onion3729/bush_vows_to_wipe_out.html
> The 'Just For Today' post was meant to be helpful to those who have a problem with addiction to prescription medicines.
>
> Do you think that it is possible to be addicted to prescription medicine?
>
> Do you think drug abuse is a physical (chemical) or an emotional (social) problem?
Posted by Jane D on August 22, 2001, at 11:28:24
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY All Funny! ;-), posted by Simcha on August 22, 2001, at 10:59:01
> Here is a tasteless stab at humor from the folks at The Onion. It is a joke newspaper and this article happens to be on-target for this discussion:
>
> Enjoy!!! ;-)
>
> http://www.theonion.com/onion3729/bush_vows_to_wipe_out.htmlThanks for the reminder that satire can beat all the calm argument in the world!
Jane
Posted by Duda on August 22, 2001, at 18:05:28
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY, posted by triedit on August 22, 2001, at 8:01:24
I agree. Rosa's post doesn't seem to me to be a judgment on this site or the people using it. I myself have addiction problems and will be keeping her link on my mind.
> In Rosa's (semi?) defense...
>
> Not all doctors are on-track. We all have to be aware and responsible for our own use of medication. There are some psych drugs that are definitely addictive--in the physcial sense as well as the spiritual. Xanax is a prime example. Personally I believe that when we use this sort of drug INSTEAD OF doing the work of therapy and fixing our own lives, then there is an addiction issue. I'm in no way suggesting that we should all stop our drugs because of addiction.
>
> In the insulin sense, yes I believe that can be an addiction of sorts as well--my father uses his insulin more than he should because he refuses to alter his diet. If he would alter his diet he could reduce his use of his insulin. In the same light, if someone can 'fix' parts of thier life in therapy and get off some of the tranq's then that person may need to think about the addiction issue.
>
> Personally, I don't think Rosa meant any harm. And I think we all need to look at why we take our meds. Many, many people on this board need thier meds to live. But who's to say there isnt someone out there who found a doc who said "oh you are a little stressed out, take this for awhile". It happens every day.
Posted by Zo on August 22, 2001, at 18:46:38
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY » triedit, posted by Simcha on August 22, 2001, at 8:23:47
Simcha, beautifully said! And am rolfing on that link.
Zo
> Depression for me has it's roots in a medical/physical condition. By doing therapy and the 12-steps I whacked away at the leaves and the branches of my depression. Until I got meds the roots were always there to grow another tree of depression. Now the meds have gotten to the roots and I can attend to my life more effectively. In my case, until something better comes along, I will not live without my medication. I have come to accept that. It is not addiction for me. It is a free choice to live a life worth living.
Posted by jason60 on August 22, 2001, at 21:17:47
In reply to JUST FOR TODAY, posted by Rosa on August 21, 2001, at 7:06:06
Rosa
I have had very serious substance abuse problems
In the past and go to AA meeting and have been to NA and I work the steps. I could care less if I
Am addicted to prescribed medications. I have
Not been prescribed any medication that have
Caused me to crash my car, assault a person,
Spend all my money on drug deals, are end up
In jail(like alcohol and street drugs have). The prescribed medications I take
Help me from going back to my old alcoholic, drug
Addict ways. Thank for the suggestion but the
People on this board have serious psychological
Problems that NA just will not fix.> If you think you may have a problem with prescribed medications, the Just For Today Meditation may be for you.
>
> Rosa
>
> You can read the JFT online at http://www.jft.ca/jftmeditation
Posted by stjames on August 23, 2001, at 0:09:14
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY, posted by jason60 on August 22, 2001, at 21:17:47
If you think you may have a problem with prescribed medications, the Just For Today Meditation may be for you.
james here....
How about this, Rosa. I'll meditate on this "I like my meds, my meds are good. I can leave the house and hold a job because of meds.
james
Posted by Zo on August 23, 2001, at 1:30:06
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY, posted by stjames on August 23, 2001, at 0:09:14
Posted by Rosa on August 23, 2001, at 8:01:38
In reply to Re: JUST FOR TODAY, posted by jason60 on August 22, 2001, at 21:17:47
In my early twenties, I was prescribed Valium ...
I kept renewing the prescription ... while continuing to drink alcohol. I did this for nearly fifteen years ... I also took Benzedrine for awhile. When I returned from overseas my doctor refused to refill my prescription ...
After talking to the doctor, he said, "you don't need a tranquilizer, you need an antidepressant and changed my medication.
Shortly after that I decided to quit drinking to see if it was really a problem ... it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. I was a problem drinker, I drank when I had a "problem". It is still a temptation. I have attended A.A. ever since.
I have been on and off antidepressants since then ... Now, I only take them when I need them ... I only take them at night. (Trazadone) My doctor recommended taking them earlier in the evening or cutting them in half because I said I felt so bad in the morning after taking them.
Prescription drugs have been more of a problem than alcohol ever was.
Two years ago, I finally got up enough courage to go to N.A. I got there by using and abusing prescription drugs.
Today, I am extremely careful what drugs I take.
I have bradycardia (slow heart rate) and passed out during a heart cath. There are a number of heart medications I cannot take.
I also take medications for high blood pressure. There are drug interactions between heart medications and blood pressure medication.
That's my story.
Rosa
-------------------------
> I have had very serious substance abuse problems
> In the past and go to AA meeting and have been to NA and I work the steps. I could care less if I
> Am addicted to prescribed medications. I have
> Not been prescribed any medication that have
> Caused me to crash my car, assault a person,
> Spend all my money on drug deals, are end up
> In jail(like alcohol and street drugs have). The prescribed medications I take
> Help me from going back to my old alcoholic, drug
> Addict ways. Thank for the suggestion but the
> People on this board have serious psychological
> Problems that NA just will not fix.
>
>
>
> > If you think you may have a problem with prescribed medications, the Just For Today Meditation may be for you.
> >
> > Rosa
> >
> > You can read the JFT online at http://www.jft.ca/jftmeditation
Posted by triedit on August 23, 2001, at 10:13:57
In reply to Alcoholic or Addict? , posted by Rosa on August 23, 2001, at 8:01:38
I think we all need to step back a minute. It's unfair to say that nobody on this board is addicted to thier meds. It is also unfair to say that everyone could be.
The bottom line is we all work our own program and from what I can see, this is a means for us to look at our meds, think about what is best, consider each other's input, and make our own choices. I think posting about addiction is a relavant topic. It happens. Its a reality of the world where general practitioners are allowed to prescribe psych drugs.
There are also alot of addictions. My husband is addicted to coca-cola. If I were, that would affect my meds. My sister abuses grapefruit juice (she swears it makes her lose weight and will drink it until her lips and throat are raw) and that too would affect some meds. I used to smoke. We all know that affects our lives and the lives of those around us.
The bottom line is, we are all different and we need to broaden our horizons. If any one post here helps someone, its a good post.
Posted by Phil on August 23, 2001, at 19:49:21
In reply to sweeping generalizations, posted by triedit on August 23, 2001, at 10:13:57
Rosa, I understand your point but these days Oxycontin is the drug of choice.:-( Out of all the meds I have been on in recent years, my current cocktail is WORKING..I'm actually happy. I have taken Klonopin and Ritalin for years; I have never abused them because I wanted to get well and I never had the urge to up the dose or snort the Ritalin, etc.
I come from a long line of people prone to addiction and have tremendous respect for the devious nature of drugs, alcohol, over-eating, and the 100's of other things we can get caught up in.
I have also sat in many 12 step meetings and have observed people that, in my non-professional opinion, should have been on anti-depressants.
My own mother, after 12 years of recovery from booze, fell into a depression that required immediate hospitalization and ECT. She didn't want to take meds afterwards and I always respected that.
I'm ramblin but bottom line,"We are all doing the best we know how."
Good luck to you on your recovery and thanks for bringing the subject up.Peace,
Phil
Posted by Zo on August 23, 2001, at 21:49:42
In reply to Alcoholic or Addict? , posted by Rosa on August 23, 2001, at 8:01:38
Thank you for sharing your story, Rosa.
That's not what this board is about
Zo
Posted by Zo on August 23, 2001, at 21:51:16
In reply to Re: sweeping generalizations, posted by Phil on August 23, 2001, at 19:49:21
Thank you.
That is not the subject of this board.
Zo
Posted by AMenz on August 24, 2001, at 0:00:34
In reply to Alcoholic or Addict? , posted by Rosa on August 23, 2001, at 8:01:38
You're making the common mistake of thinking that addiction to tranquilizers and benzo's, etc is the same thing as taking antidepressants, antipsychotics etc which are not drugs that give an immediate high or low and therefore have the potentioal to create an addictive reaction.
People on this board have a disorder that requires medication, for which there is really not yet an optimal medical solution. You ought to become better informed before continuing to post here things such as just for today I won't take lithium. Then just for tomorrow I'll be insane.
> In my early twenties, I was prescribed Valium ...
>
> I kept renewing the prescription ... while continuing to drink alcohol. I did this for nearly fifteen years ... I also took Benzedrine for awhile. When I returned from overseas my doctor refused to refill my prescription ...
>
> After talking to the doctor, he said, "you don't need a tranquilizer, you need an antidepressant and changed my medication.
>
> Shortly after that I decided to quit drinking to see if it was really a problem ... it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. I was a problem drinker, I drank when I had a "problem". It is still a temptation. I have attended A.A. ever since.
>
> I have been on and off antidepressants since then ... Now, I only take them when I need them ... I only take them at night. (Trazadone) My doctor recommended taking them earlier in the evening or cutting them in half because I said I felt so bad in the morning after taking them.
>
> Prescription drugs have been more of a problem than alcohol ever was.
>
> Two years ago, I finally got up enough courage to go to N.A. I got there by using and abusing prescription drugs.
>
> Today, I am extremely careful what drugs I take.
>
> I have bradycardia (slow heart rate) and passed out during a heart cath. There are a number of heart medications I cannot take.
>
> I also take medications for high blood pressure. There are drug interactions between heart medications and blood pressure medication.
>
> That's my story.
>
> Rosa
>
> -------------------------
>
> > I have had very serious substance abuse problems
> > In the past and go to AA meeting and have been to NA and I work the steps. I could care less if I
> > Am addicted to prescribed medications. I have
> > Not been prescribed any medication that have
> > Caused me to crash my car, assault a person,
> > Spend all my money on drug deals, are end up
> > In jail(like alcohol and street drugs have). The prescribed medications I take
> > Help me from going back to my old alcoholic, drug
> > Addict ways. Thank for the suggestion but the
> > People on this board have serious psychological
> > Problems that NA just will not fix.
> >
> >
> >
> > > If you think you may have a problem with prescribed medications, the Just For Today Meditation may be for you.
> > >
> > > Rosa
> > >
> > > You can read the JFT online at http://www.jft.ca/jftmeditation
Posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 6:46:09
In reply to Re: sweeping generalizations, posted by Phil on August 23, 2001, at 19:49:21
Phil,
Thanks for your interest.
FindLaw: Health Law
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 re: Oxycontin
There are currently 13 lawsuits against the makers of Oxycontin for deaths related to the use of this addictive drug.
Rosa
Rosa, I understand your point but these days Oxycontin is the drug of choice.:-(
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2001, at 11:34:25
In reply to Re: Alcoholic or Addict? » Rosa, posted by Zo on August 23, 2001, at 21:49:42
> That's not what this board is about
I'm not sure I'd agree. This board is for medication-related issues, and addiction to prescription medication certainly is a medication-related issue.
Not all use of prescription medication, however, constitutes addiction.
Agreed?
Bob
Posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 16:12:55
In reply to Re: what this board is about, posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2001, at 11:34:25
> > That's not what this board is about
>
> I'm not sure I'd agree. This board is for medication-related issues, and addiction to prescription medication certainly is a medication-related issue.
Would it be accurate to say, this is not board that exists primarily for the discussion of the dangers of addiction to prescription medications or recovery from same?Thanks,
Zo
Posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 16:50:21
In reply to Re: what this board is about, posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2001, at 11:34:25
I agree, not all use of prescription medication constitutes addiction.
What do you think constitutes abuse of medication?
Rosa
That's not what this board is about
>
> I'm not sure I'd agree. This board is for medication-related issues, and addiction to prescription medication certainly is a medication-related issue.
>
> Not all use of prescription medication, however, constitutes addiction.
>
> Agreed?
>
> Bob
Posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 19:23:45
In reply to Abuse of Prescription Medication, posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 16:50:21
I hope you weren't asking me. This is not a subject that interests me, and not what I come to this board to discuss.
Sincerely,
Zo
Posted by Phil on August 24, 2001, at 22:31:14
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Rosa, posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 19:23:45
Zo, I've been coming to this board for a long time. I only say that to let you know that, as far as I can remember, I've never participated in a thread like this. I don't think that's it's an unreasonable subject to discuss.
Meds save my life and I will probably be on them for life. I'm fine with that. But to get angry at the subject matter, when you can just go to what interest you, doesn't really accomplish much...just my opinion.
Also, to deny that some people don't get in trouble with meds is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.
Doesn't hurt to kick this subject around occasionally.
(Above not meant to flame)Phil
Posted by Pennie Lane on August 24, 2001, at 22:38:43
In reply to Abuse of Prescription Medication, posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 16:50:21
Rosa,
You probably already know the problems of abuse involving prescription medicine are not as simple as some replies to your post would indicate. But the problems of prescription drug abuse probaby cannot be solved by simply clicking to a narca-non site and contemplating certain prose, either. In part, the problems are cultural, and involve individuals' expectations and various views of what is considered "normal."
While some regulars at this site probably do have severe mental health problems, which in some cases have been improved by prescription medications, the correlation between etiology, diagnosis and treatment, in the mental health system at large, is tennuous and hardly consistent. The mental health system is used now, as it long has, as a place to bring family members who for whatever reason do not fit in, and where individuals can manipulate the systems to obtain the specific meds they prefer. The claim that anti-depressants and anti-psychotics are not often abused and therefore pyshciatric drugs are not commonly abused is a falacious argument. The claim that psych drugs help some people, therefore you should not be concerned about abuse in other situations is an indifferent and somewhat uncaring stance.
Oxycontin abuse is probably a poor example of abuse of prescription psych drugs. Oxycontin is a pain med, and most problems with Oxycontin stem from diversion or theft of legitimately prescribed dosages (including in some of the pending lawsuits.) Opiods of all sorts have long been diverted for unauthorized use, but psychiatric drugs also created the risk of diversion and abuse. The psychiatric drugs most likely to be abused include amphetamine-class drugs, and sedatives. The more respected a person is as a professional, the greater the likelihood that a doctor will trust their judgement and supply amphetamines or hypnotics based on casual complaints. Adult caretakers of youth, and caregivers for the elderly are also likely candidates for reporting symptoms that reflect the caregiver's personal preference for acceptable behavior instead of a legitimate psychiatric complaint.
Many psych drug abusers would seem to be the least likely; who would guess that the chief justice of the largest state court system in the United States would become a victim of his own abuse of prescription medications.
For anyone who is seriously interested in the problem of prescription drug abuse (and not for those interested in foisting moral judgements or for those anxious to defend their own choice of medications) former New York Chief Justice Sol Wachtler describes his experience with prescription drug abuse in "After the Madness."
A few excerpts from the Chief Justice's jailhouse memoire:
Introduction
(page 3, first words of book…) The facts of my case have been well publicized. I dwell on them not to excuse my wrongful conduct but to explain how I wound up in prison and how the abuse of drugs, even those legally prescribed, and untreated mental disorder, can destroy.
The decomposition of my life began slowly, almost imperceptibly. ...
(page 4) While suffering this profound depression, and not wanting to bear the stigma of seeing a psychiatrist, I attempted to self medicate. I was able to convince one doctor to prescribe Tenuate, an amphetaminelike drug I used to elevate my energy level and thereby mask my depression. (I took 1400 of them in a four month period). And because I could not sleep, I was able to convince another doctor to prescribe a hypnotic called Halcion (I took 280 of them during the same four months). Still another doctor gave me a prescription for Pamelor, an antidepressant. And there were others. All of these drugs taken by themselves have dangerous side effects. Taken together the reaction can be devastating. In my case it contributed to and exacerbated a diagnosed manic-depressive (bipolar) disorder.
(Page 7, from Watchler's post arrest psychiatric report by Doctors William A. Forsch (Cornell) and Frank T. Miller (Payne Whitney): “Judge Watchler’s severe mental illness is best categorized as drug induced and exacerbated bipolar disorder (manic depression).”
(page 9 before his arrest) ...I told the doctor only what I wanted to reveal...
(page 13) I was in Sedona, Arizona, to address the Nevada Bar Association. I couldn’t sleep. I had taken two Halcion and two Unisom and still I couldn’t sleep. Was it the three Tenuate I had taken that afternoon to keep me from depression? Maybe but at the time I didn’t think I really needed the sleep – what I needed was time to think....
...And suddenly it came to me, a manically induced epiphany...
Posted by Phil on August 24, 2001, at 23:31:29
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Rosa, posted by Pennie Lane on August 24, 2001, at 22:38:43
Was not trying to infer that Oxycontin was a psych drug. Just shootin the breeze. Probably should have mentioned Disco Bisquits; The late 70's wonder drug...Quaaludes. :-)
Posted by Rosa on August 25, 2001, at 7:49:36
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication Penny Lane, posted by Phil on August 24, 2001, at 23:31:29
Is this board limited to sedatives, antidepressants, antianxiety drugs and antipsychotics?
Rosa
> Was not trying to infer that Oxycontin was a psych drug. Just shootin the breeze. Probably should have mentioned Disco Bisquits; The late 70's wonder drug...Quaaludes. :-)
Posted by Pennie Lane on August 25, 2001, at 11:41:48
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication Penny Lane, posted by Rosa on August 25, 2001, at 7:49:36
Rosa:
re: "Is this board limited to sedatives, antidepressants, antianxiety drugs and antipsychotics?"
no, i don't think so, but that does cover a broad swath of psych drugs, and this board is focused on psych drugs. There has been discussion at times about whether psychiatric treatment can be discussed primarily from a pharmaceutical approach. I think a primary focus on medications tends to discount other factors that contribute to psychiatric complaints, but that is what PBSocial is supposed to be about. For my interests, the discussion there tends to be very social and casual. It is not as often focused on theoretical or scientific evidence of social/behavioral/cultural stressors that contribute to psychiatric problems.
The doc seems to have established a boundary here when he said this board (PB) does allow discussion of psychiatric drug abuse. For the sake of discussion, the abuse of Oxycontin, quaalude, GHB, rolfies, and other such drugs is interesting, but is not central to a discussion of psyhciatric drug abuse.
Sedatives and stimulants prescribed specifically for phsyciatric complaints are often abused, even by people in positions of authority, so discussion of abuse involving those drugs is particularly interesting. The abuse of other pshyc drugs, such as anti-depressents, is also very interesting, but can be problematic on this board. Some people are convinced, rightly or wrongly, that they have no personal issues but instead are effected by an exclusively biological disorder that is of an entirely different league than are psych symptoms related to a social situation or to life-stresses. I might disagree - people might feel they have enjoyed a normal youth, but might not realize how the norms they excepted effected their development, and what alternatives might have produced different results. So if you want to discuss that here, I might contribute, but you should know it has been a sensitive topic and if the discussion does not frequently touch on psych drugs, or maybe even if it approaches psych drugs from a critical angle, you might get booted over to PB.
Now, in the use and abuse of amphetamines, the topic would seem to fit here, but again, some people's opinion of the overall use of these drugs might be influenced by their own preference for amphetamines or by their need to defend the practice of ready access to psych drugs in general. (Or at least ready access for those who can afford access.)
Phil:
I didn't mean to insinuate that you were insinuating Oxycontin was a psych drug, though I realize it appeared to be the case. My intent was to focus on patterns of abuse that are particular to psych drugs. In most cases, those patterns involve selective reporting of symptoms intended to obtain prescriptions for a chosen drug, or in the misidentification of symptoms by caregivers who do not understand the social and behavioral complications effecting those they care for. Diversion and theft seems to be more of an issue with opiods than with psych drugs. People tend to obtain homemade amphetamines on the black market rather than through the medical community, and it is often arguable that their purpose is self-medication of the same symptoms for which a licensed practitioner would administer similar sympathomemetics.
Beneath the blue suburban skies
I sit and meanwhile back.>
> Rosa
>
> > Was not trying to infer that Oxycontin was a psych drug. Just shootin the breeze. Probably should have mentioned Disco Bisquits; The late 70's wonder drug...Quaaludes. :-)
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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