![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 10:57:56
Hello all...I'm looking for some feedback on Orthomolecular (Megavitamin, "whole body" medicine and testing. Drs. Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer (as well as many lesser known pioneers) believe in it wholeheartedly. Any educated commentary including personal experiences is GREATLY appreciated
Posted by susan C on August 19, 2001, at 12:54:51
In reply to Nutrition cure, posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 10:57:56
> Hello all...I'm looking for some feedback on Orthomolecular (Megavitamin, "whole body" medicine and testing. Drs. Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer (as well as many lesser known pioneers) believe in it wholeheartedly. Any educated commentary including personal experiences is GREATLY appreciated
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010814/msgs/75576.html
I saw your post before and didn't know what ortho...was, now I understand. The only things I have to add is an obervation that 'integrative medicine clinics' are now in vogue with MDs and also, my bro was dx Schiz. in the 70's and he tried that then, no apparent help.
Susan C
Posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 14:29:50
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by susan C on August 19, 2001, at 12:54:51
> > Hello all...I'm looking for some feedback on Orthomolecular (Megavitamin, "whole body" medicine and testing. Drs. Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer (as well as many lesser known pioneers) believe in it wholeheartedly. Any educated commentary including personal experiences is GREATLY appreciated
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010814/msgs/75576.html
>
> I saw your post before and didn't know what ortho...was, now I understand. The only things I have to add is an obervation that 'integrative medicine clinics' are now in vogue with MDs and also, my bro was dx Schiz. in the 70's and he tried that then, no apparent help.
> Susan C
Susan...What EXACTLY was used, and in what dosages, to treat your brother in the 70's? Was it STRICTLY niacin? This is important. What is he taking now?
Posted by susan C on August 19, 2001, at 17:17:08
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 14:29:50
> > > Hello all...I'm looking for some feedback on Orthomolecular (Megavitamin, "whole body" medicine and testing. Drs. Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer (as well as many lesser known pioneers) believe in it wholeheartedly. Any educated commentary including personal experiences is GREATLY appreciated
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010814/msgs/75576.html
> >
> > I saw your post before and didn't know what ortho...was, now I understand. The only things I have to add is an obervation that 'integrative medicine clinics' are now in vogue with MDs and also, my bro was dx Schiz. in the 70's and he tried that then, no apparent help.
> > Susan C
>
>
> Susan...What EXACTLY was used, and in what dosages, to treat your brother in the 70's?I dont know
Was it STRICTLY niacin? This is important. What is he taking now?
He suicided in 1978
I wish I had an answer, your post made me think about seeing if I could obtain his medical records. In my hunt for solutions to my mental illness, I have collected part of my dad's records. My mom is 82, and in our family we all have a habit of avoiding talking about all of the problems we experienced, particularly to her, as she was so unresolved about it for so long...she is better now and I think may even be willing to work with me on it, as she did with getting my dads records....
Right now I am trying to make sure my records are in order, as I have changed doctors. and I am having a hard time reading past the last couple of visits to the old pdoc. There is a reason I left.
Have you investigated Naturopathic Doctors? I work with one and have found him to be particularly knowledgable about nutrition and very willing to investigate cross medicine issues. He has said there is no known nutritional cure for what ailes me, possible bipolar 2, All my tests come back normal range with a sight variation for the meds I take (primarily depakote)
Hope you find some answers. If you have more questions, ask away. I may not have the answer but I am looking, too.
Susan C.
Posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 20:29:29
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by susan C on August 19, 2001, at 17:17:08
> > > > Hello all...I'm looking for some feedback on Orthomolecular (Megavitamin, "whole body" medicine and testing. Drs. Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer (as well as many lesser known pioneers) believe in it wholeheartedly. Any educated commentary including personal experiences is GREATLY appreciated
> > >
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010814/msgs/75576.html
> > >
> > > I saw your post before and didn't know what ortho...was, now I understand. The only things I have to add is an obervation that 'integrative medicine clinics' are now in vogue with MDs and also, my bro was dx Schiz. in the 70's and he tried that then, no apparent help.
> > > Susan C
> >
> >
> > Susan...What EXACTLY was used, and in what dosages, to treat your brother in the 70's?
>
> I dont know
>
> Was it STRICTLY niacin? This is important. What is he taking now?
>
> He suicided in 1978
>
> I wish I had an answer, your post made me think about seeing if I could obtain his medical records. In my hunt for solutions to my mental illness, I have collected part of my dad's records. My mom is 82, and in our family we all have a habit of avoiding talking about all of the problems we experienced, particularly to her, as she was so unresolved about it for so long...she is better now and I think may even be willing to work with me on it, as she did with getting my dads records....
>
> Right now I am trying to make sure my records are in order, as I have changed doctors. and I am having a hard time reading past the last couple of visits to the old pdoc. There is a reason I left.
>
> Have you investigated Naturopathic Doctors? I work with one and have found him to be particularly knowledgable about nutrition and very willing to investigate cross medicine issues. He has said there is no known nutritional cure for what ailes me, possible bipolar 2, All my tests come back normal range with a sight variation for the meds I take (primarily depakote)
>
> Hope you find some answers. If you have more questions, ask away. I may not have the answer but I am looking, too.
>
> Susan C.
Susan...I am very sorry to hear about your brother. Sorry for him especially because of what he must have been going thru to get to that point. I am looking heavily into the work of Dr. Abram Hoffer and Linus Pauling, Carl Pheiffer and Eric Braverman. I highly suggest it.
Have you been ok on the depakote? Have you tried megavitamin supplementation? Have you been to an ORTHOMOLECULAR PHYSICIAN or O.M. Psychiatrist? Let me know in what state u live and I can give you the names of Orthomolecular Drs. there. The list is also included in the following "e-book" which I HIGHLY recommend.
Read this: http://www.biochemimbal-behavior.com/default2.htm
and let me know what you think.
Posted by Cam W. on August 20, 2001, at 11:23:57
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 20:29:29
> Read this: http://www.biochemimbal-behavior.com/default2.htm
To All - Read the disclaimer carefully. Would a composer have the same insight into how the body works, as would someone who has made pharmacology or physiology a lifelong pursuit (ie. reseach scientists)? Before spending a lot of money on overprice vitamins, I would say to watch your newspapers over the next 6 months, to see how one megavitamin group stacks up against science.
Yes, some "psychiatric" disorders in the past have benefitted from vitamin therapy. For example, a vitamin B defiency caused pellagra, especially in sailors. Pellagra had some pseudo-demetia symptoms that resolved with treatments of fresh fruit. British sailors learned to avoid pellagra by carrying and eating limes while at sea (hence, their being called "Limeys"). Researchers have looked for vitamin deficiencies in many psychiatric disorders (eg. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder), and, while outside of some general nutritional problems which were corrected with changes in diet and vitamin supplementation, the core symptoms of the disorders were not improved.
Another observation about vitamins is "more is not better". With the water soluble vitamins (eg. B-complex and C) taking too much gives you nice bright yellow pee. The body uses what it needs and excretes the rest.
The fat soluble vitamins (eg. A, D, E, and K) can build up in the body. They are taken up by the fat cells of the body and not readily excreted. Caution must be taken if one is taking high doses of these vitamins, especially without medical supervision.
As for minerals, there is no indication that taking an excess can do anything positive for the body. In fact, too much iron intake can cause a disorder known as "bronze diabetes" (exogenous hemochromatosis). While chromium does help with carbohydrate metabolism, too much can result in pneumoconiosis (similar to asbestosis). Other examples: encephalopathy from excessive lead; "Mad Hatter's syndrome" from excessive; biliary cirrhosis from excessive copper; metal fume fever from excessive zinc; etc.
Vitamins and minerals are essential to a body's functioning, but remember, moderation is the key.
My 2¢ - Cam
Posted by susan C on August 20, 2001, at 12:49:41
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by Cam W. on August 20, 2001, at 11:23:57
> > Read this: http://www.biochemimbal-behavior.com/default2.htm
>
> To All - Read the disclaimer carefully. Would a composer have the same insight into how the body works, as would someone who has made pharmacology or physiology a lifelong pursuit (ie. reseach scientists)? Before spending a lot of money on overprice vitamins, I would say to watch your newspapers over the next 6 months, to see how one megavitamin group stacks up against science.
>
> Yes, some "psychiatric" disorders in the past have benefitted from vitamin therapy. For example, a vitamin B defiency caused pellagra, especially in sailors. Pellagra had some pseudo-demetia symptoms that resolved with treatments of fresh fruit. British sailors learned to avoid pellagra by carrying and eating limes while at sea (hence, their being called "Limeys"). Researchers have looked for vitamin deficiencies in many psychiatric disorders (eg. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder), and, while outside of some general nutritional problems which were corrected with changes in diet and vitamin supplementation, the core symptoms of the disorders were not improved.
>
> Another observation about vitamins is "more is not better". With the water soluble vitamins (eg. B-complex and C) taking too much gives you nice bright yellow pee. The body uses what it needs and excretes the rest.
>
> The fat soluble vitamins (eg. A, D, E, and K) can build up in the body. They are taken up by the fat cells of the body and not readily excreted. Caution must be taken if one is taking high doses of these vitamins, especially without medical supervision.
>
> As for minerals, there is no indication that taking an excess can do anything positive for the body. In fact, too much iron intake can cause a disorder known as "bronze diabetes" (exogenous hemochromatosis). While chromium does help with carbohydrate metabolism, too much can result in pneumoconiosis (similar to asbestosis). Other examples: encephalopathy from excessive lead; "Mad Hatter's syndrome" from excessive; biliary cirrhosis from excessive copper; metal fume fever from excessive zinc; etc.
>
> Vitamins and minerals are essential to a body's functioning, but remember, moderation is the key.
>
> My 2¢ - Cam Hi,Hi Good for u: Thank you for your sympathy. You asked what I think:
In the past, I have worked with my nutrition, vitamins, 'natural hormones' meditation, stress release, exercise, journaling, therapy, medical doctors, TCM, chiropractor (the conservative and liberal kind who think they can cure asthma by adjusting your spine)
I skimed the book's table of contents and read a few parts and read the disclaimer (hi cam) (I am not concentrating well right now). So, please understand I have not read the book. I probably won't. I have other priorities to focus on right now. What I can say, is I agree with Cam. Buyer beware. Moderation in all things. Balance and eat real food. And finally, I have confidence in my doctor. I also know it is my responsibility to evaluate what he says and that is why I am here...to educate myself, benefit from others experience and try to understand.
I know when someone is excited about something they have discovered or that works I say to myself that is great, more power to them, I have been there. But I know, from my journals and charts, that any improvement I experience has to last more than 12 months. Otherwise, it could very well be coincidence, the cycling of my illness/condition.
In addition, the most important and most helpful things to my health have been my confidence in my medical care provider and the love and support of those around me. With out those, I would be lost at the times when I am most confused and tormented.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to comment on your area of investigation. I am curious and will check in from time to time.Yes, depakote has helped a little, no, I have not heard of that type of doctor. At this point I appreciate your offer but am not changing anything, other than working on what I have already started.
Susan C
> > > > > Hello all...I'm looking for some feedback on Orthomolecular (Megavitamin, "whole body" medicine and testing. Drs. Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer (as well as many lesser known pioneers) believe in it wholeheartedly. Any educated commentary including personal experiences is GREATLY appreciated
> > > >
> > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010814/msgs/75576.html
> > > >
> > > > I saw your post before and didn't know what ortho...was, now I understand. The only things I have to add is an obervation that 'integrative medicine clinics' are now in vogue with MDs and also, my bro was dx Schiz. in the 70's and he tried that then, no apparent help.
> > > > Susan C
> > >
> > >
> > > Susan...What EXACTLY was used, and in what dosages, to treat your brother in the 70's?
> >
> > I dont know
> >
> > Was it STRICTLY niacin? This is important. What is he taking now?
> >
> > He suicided in 1978
> >
> > I wish I had an answer, your post made me think about seeing if I could obtain his medical records. In my hunt for solutions to my mental illness, I have collected part of my dad's records. My mom is 82, and in our family we all have a habit of avoiding talking about all of the problems we experienced, particularly to her, as she was so unresolved about it for so long...she is better now and I think may even be willing to work with me on it, as she did with getting my dads records....
> >
> > Right now I am trying to make sure my records are in order, as I have changed doctors. and I am having a hard time reading past the last couple of visits to the old pdoc. There is a reason I left.
> >
> > Have you investigated Naturopathic Doctors? I work with one and have found him to be particularly knowledgable about nutrition and very willing to investigate cross medicine issues. He has said there is no known nutritional cure for what ailes me, possible bipolar 2, All my tests come back normal range with a sight variation for the meds I take (primarily depakote)
> >
> > Hope you find some answers. If you have more questions, ask away. I may not have the answer but I am looking, too.
> >
> > Susan C.
>
>
> Susan...
>
> I am very sorry to hear about your brother. Sorry for him especially because of what he must have been going thru to get to that point. I am looking heavily into the work of Dr. Abram Hoffer and Linus Pauling, Carl Pheiffer and Eric Braverman. I highly suggest it.
>
> Have you been ok on the depakote? Have you tried megavitamin supplementation? Have you been to an ORTHOMOLECULAR PHYSICIAN or O.M. Psychiatrist? Let me know in what state u live and I can give you the names of Orthomolecular Drs. there. The list is also included in the following "e-book" which I HIGHLY recommend.
>
> Read this: http://www.biochemimbal-behavior.com/default2.htm
>
> and let me know what you think.
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2001, at 20:15:12
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by susan C on August 20, 2001, at 12:49:41
Hi, everyone,
Just wanted to say, what a nice civil discussion. :-)
Bob
Posted by Zo on August 21, 2001, at 21:42:46
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2001, at 20:15:12
> Hi, everyone,
>
> Just wanted to say, what a nice civil discussion. :-)
>
> BobWell, I don't know about everybody else, but you sure faked *me* out.
Usually click on your name just to see who was Bad this time.
Disappointed, (but I can live with it)
Zo
Posted by Zo on August 21, 2001, at 21:46:09
In reply to Nutrition cure, posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 10:57:56
I hate to discourage *anybody* from trying *anything*. . you never know. But, having flung myself at every natural cure that' came along for 15 years, including Orthomolecular. . .my solid conclusion, based on personal results is:
Give me drugs.
Zo
Posted by good4u on August 21, 2001, at 22:10:28
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure » good4u, posted by Zo on August 21, 2001, at 21:46:09
> I hate to discourage *anybody* from trying *anything*. . you never know. But, having flung myself at every natural cure that' came along for 15 years, including Orthomolecular. . .my solid conclusion, based on personal results is:
>
> Give me drugs.
>
> Zo
Zo:What exactly have u tried re: Orthomolecular medicine? Have u tried discovering food allergies? What is you "diagnosis?" What meds r u on?
Posted by Lorraine on August 22, 2001, at 14:41:48
In reply to Nutrition cure, posted by good4u on August 19, 2001, at 10:57:56
Hi: I did a lot of research into Orthomolecular approaches to treating depression. I recommend the web site thewayup.com. I tried using all of the neurotransmitter precursors--which all affected me, but didn't do the trick in terms of alleviating my depression. I have been on Omega 3 oils for 4 months--no noticable effects. I have taken GABA occassionally for mild (mild) anxiety--it is helpful. Tried b vitamin augmentation--no effect. So I hope something here works for you, but it didn't for me and I feel that I have fully explored this option (my pdoc even worked with me on it).
Posted by Zo on August 22, 2001, at 18:37:13
In reply to Re: Nutrition cure, posted by Lorraine on August 22, 2001, at 14:41:48
> I have been on Omega 3 oils for 4 >months--no noticable effects.
You too? I bought the *special* *expensive* kind, online, sold by Stoll, recc by pdoc. You do have to have the right ratio of EPA to DHA, if it's going to work at all for BP. I got an end to cycling, but it was a whole lot like, well, somewhere here I posted yesterday. . .Flatlining. Not exactly like being alive. Am done with *that* trial, unsure yet if we learned anything at all.
Zo
Posted by good4u on August 22, 2001, at 22:27:55
In reply to Re: Omega-3 » Lorraine, posted by Zo on August 22, 2001, at 18:37:13
> > I have been on Omega 3 oils for 4 >months--no noticable effects.
>
> You too? I bought the *special* *expensive* kind, online, sold by Stoll, recc by pdoc. You do have to have the right ratio of EPA to DHA, if it's going to work at all for BP. I got an end to cycling, but it was a whole lot like, well, somewhere here I posted yesterday. . .Flatlining. Not exactly like being alive. Am done with *that* trial, unsure yet if we learned anything at all.
>
> Zo
Lorraine and ZO..."Orthomolecular" means literally "right molecule"...it involves much more than trying single well known supplements to "cure" or effectively treat these conditions. The idea is that EVERYONES's bio-chemistry, although"basically" the same, is in fact highly variable from one individual to the next. SO, simple foods or nutrients that one person might thrive on in minimal dosages might cause allergic reactions and/or "under"nutrition in others...I suggest some orthomolecular drs., as well as reading the works of Dr. Abram Hoffer, among others(pheiffer, Pauling, etc.). And not that I don't trust pdocs, cause to "not trust them" would be a gross generalization/bigotry. But...I DO know that many Drs. can be somewhat narrowminded and not so much into research - more pure clinicians than researchers...If u look into it, I think u will find that the premise is very logical. Another book called "Brain Allergies" is very good as well, describing not only nutrients, but ecology as contributor to mental dis-ease. I look forward to your responses.
Posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 0:33:26
In reply to Re: Omega-3 and For Lorraine, posted by good4u on August 22, 2001, at 22:27:55
I don't have much positive to say.
It *seems* like it ought to work, but tried OM, among a million other cures, in 20 years of trying to feel any good... dxs: CFS, BP II, TLE, ADD,yada yada. . .and I just don't think it's there, yet.
Wouldn't discourage anyone from trying, but for me, the bedrock is drugs. . and I do a lot of health things on top of that.
One nice thing about meds is you know what you're getting, what dose, which drug. . and for me, that counts for a lot.
Best,
Zo
Posted by Lorraine on August 24, 2001, at 10:17:03
In reply to Re: Omega-3 and For Lorraine, posted by good4u on August 22, 2001, at 22:27:55
>
> Lorraine and ZO...
>
> "Orthomolecular" means literally "right molecule"...it involves much more than trying single well known supplements to "cure" or effectively treat these conditions. The idea is that EVERYONES's bio-chemistry, although"basically" the same, is in fact highly variable from one individual to the next. SO, simple foods or nutrients that one person might thrive on in minimal dosages might cause allergic reactions and/or "under"nutrition in others...I suggest some orthomolecular drs., as well as reading the works of Dr. Abram Hoffer, among others(pheiffer, Pauling, etc.). And not that I don't trust pdocs, cause to "not trust them" would be a gross generalization/bigotry. But...I DO know that many Drs. can be somewhat narrowminded and not so much into research - more pure clinicians than researchers...If u look into it, I think u will find that the premise is very logical. Another book called "Brain Allergies" is very good as well, describing not only nutrients, but ecology as contributor to mental dis-ease. I look forward to your responses.I can't tell you how many books (lots--every book published that I could lay my hands on?) I read on orthomolecular psychology or how much internet research (including the schizophrenia sites and the Paulings sites and Slagles site) I did in this area. I am a real research fiend and when I take to an idea, I really dive in. This is what I did here. I read mountains of material and was really convinced that this was a viable approach. (It still may be--it just didn't work for me). What I am saying is that you should not assume it's failure with me was because I lacked information. Slagle is a local practitioner in this area and I considered seeing her about this approach, but was unwilling to abandon my current pdoc--who is quite good. My pdoc was knowledgable and supportive of orthomolecular approaches--in fact it was his idea. I wouldn't have abandoned the idea lightly because it appealled to me on so many levels. I really wish that it had worked with me, but it didn't. I know that its failure to work with me was because the orthomolecular approach did not work for me, not because it wasn't given a good trial because I lacked knowledge or my pdoc wasn't with the program. I gave it a good full trial and it failed. I hope it works for you. I think that it is worth a try and because it has so few side effects if it does work it is clearly the best way to go.
Posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 16:07:13
In reply to Re: Omega-3 and For Lorraine, posted by good4u on August 22, 2001, at 22:27:55
Just to add, I went thru the Brain Allergies thing to, being an early-on sufferer of what was then called Environmental Illness. That meant I cleaned up my diet and house and environment to total organic purity, for years. . .alot of that I still do, tho not to those extremes. . .but did it help? Not one teeny. The first breakthru was in '85 when a pdoc herself ill began fiddling with Li and TCAs with a few of us. From all my reading and experience, it just made sense to balance the brain chemistry judiciously with meds. . tho I had to wait for a lot of them to be invented. Got on Wellbutrin in '89 and "woke up". . .and have been pursuing meds ever since. With some supplements as *key* foundation, but nothing "natural" has ever, so far, touched my brain/mood.
Wishing you good luck. . .maybe the field has changed?
Zo
I did go to one OM shrink, who put me on I think 1000gr Niacin, and when I developed an ulcer, said, You'd better see a doctor!
Posted by susan C on August 24, 2001, at 17:02:36
In reply to Re: Omega-3 and For Lorraine » good4u, posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 16:07:13
This is a facinating discussion, and I wish too, I could just discover something I eat could make me better. I will have to vote with the 'med is a specific chemical and you know how much you are getting' comment. One of the challenges I face, and perhaps all of us, is being patient long enough to see if the one new thing we did makes a difference. For me, it is going to have to be twelve months, at least. There is also the facination with the hope, the continuing hope, that the truth is out there, some where, just eluding us, just out of reach. Thank you to all in this thread for the very clear descriptions of what you have done and the references. You have saved me a lot of time when I go to hunt this particular nugget up.
a mouse scampering back to her hole.
> Just to add, I went thru the Brain Allergies thing to, being an early-on sufferer of what was then called Environmental Illness. That meant I cleaned up my diet and house and environment to total organic purity, for years. . .alot of that I still do, tho not to those extremes. . .but did it help? Not one teeny. The first breakthru was in '85 when a pdoc herself ill began fiddling with Li and TCAs with a few of us. From all my reading and experience, it just made sense to balance the brain chemistry judiciously with meds. . tho I had to wait for a lot of them to be invented. Got on Wellbutrin in '89 and "woke up". . .and have been pursuing meds ever since. With some supplements as *key* foundation, but nothing "natural" has ever, so far, touched my brain/mood.
>
> Wishing you good luck. . .maybe the field has changed?
>
> Zo
>
> I did go to one OM shrink, who put me on I think 1000gr Niacin, and when I developed an ulcer, said, You'd better see a doctor!
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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