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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 19:54:14
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia...Else, posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 9:38:48
Yes but don't they also act on serotonine? I HATE SSRIs and frankly every serotoninergic drug I've taken in my life has been a fiasco and that includes pot, Zoloft, Effexor, Desyrel, Ecstasy and Prozac. The only one I did OK on was LSD but it's not really a workable option for everyday life.
> Hi Else,
> Yes, APs do block dopamine function, but primarily at higher doses. At lower doses they actually stimulate dopamine function. I am referring to Zyprexa and Risperdal and Amisulpride. All the others do indeed block dopamine. But then again, a lot of weird emotions including depression can be caused by excess dopamine. That's why they call it 'chemical imbalance'. Chemical imbalance can be too much as well as too little. Restoring the correct balance is the goal, but sometimes we don't know ahead of time whether we need to increase it or decrease it. We always tend to think in terms of increasing it, but that is not always the case. Excesses are just as bad as deficiencies. Back to the APs though, the newer ones are sort-of dual action. They work differently at low doses than they do at high doses. There is generally very little risk of TD, Parkinsons, or other weird things at low doses. Usually those kinds of things occur with people taking heavy duty doses.
> John
>
> > Hi John
> > I agree with you about SSRIs doing nothing but numbing emotions but I'm surprised that an antipsychotic would increase dopamine function. Aren't APs suppose to block dopamine receptors and decrese dopamine function? If not then why do they cause Parkinsonism. Unless new APs are completely different, but the warnings in the PDR, CPS and the like are the same about EPS and TD (except for clozaril but as you must know it causes a different set of severe problems in some people). I don't think Adrafinil is available in Canada (nothing good is). I have my sights set on Ritalin or Parnate but it might be years until my doctor aquiesces.
> > Thank you for the input
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I think (just my opinion) that dopamine is indeed a major player in social phobia. Usually SSRIs are prescribed for social phobia. I think the reason they can work is because they merely numb emotions.
> > >
> > > I was on a European drug called Amisulpride for quite a while. It is an antipsychotic that only increases dopamine function. It has no effect on anything else. When I was on it I noticed my shyness went away, I became more talkative, comfortable around people, confident, etc.
> > >
> > > Since then my treatment has evolved into Prozac+Zyprexa+Adrafinil. Zyprexa sort-of replaces Amisulpride, and sort-of does the same thing, while Adrafinil helps even more with the social phobia thing. Even normal people who take Adrafinil can notice an increase in socialability and they become more talkative, more outgoing, and more comfortable in a crowd. Prozac is in the mix because I like a mildly stimulating antidepressant, and it just happens to combine super with Zyprexa and/or Adrafinil.
> > >
> > > Just my random thoughts. Hope something here is helpful.
> > > John
Posted by JackD on July 22, 2001, at 5:49:38
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
I haven't read any of the responses to your post, so forgive me if I'm being repetitive (I'm too tired now to read through them all). I too have found significant dopamine function in SP related problems; especially from tinkering with my own brain. Now, I have ADD, and that is usually from a lack of Dopamine among other things, and that basically makes your brain constantly seek stimuli, such as from day-dreaming or hyperactivity (which can manifest itself as introversion). When I take (abuse... sigh...) Ritalin, it makes me MUCH more confident and social.
Here's my very superficial narrow rundown:
Serotonin: Affects other neurotransmitter systems by sending "chill out!" messages, err..., disinhibiting messages. Makes me feel fearless and less emotional. Also increases desire to be sociable; I call it the "touchy-feely" neurotransmitter.
Dopamine: Enhances/Magnifies behavior; ticks, habits, etc are worsened. General behavior and behavioral traits magnified. Affects drive, work capacity, and DEFINITELY confidence. In high doses in itself, leads to separation from friends (no need for them!, or so you feel), selfishness, and anger (as I said it magnifies behavior); I call it the "selfish" neurotransmitter.
Norepinepherine: Hmmmmm....... haven't been able to discriminate it's unique effects. Supposedly affects ability to handle stress, motivation, and generally affecsts (enhances?) all the other neurotransmitters.
GABA: Numbs the mind. Dims the lights. Takes the edge off. Disinhibiting. Similar to being in a slightly dumbed down alcoholic stupor. Great for anxiety. With me, the poor memory and any negative cognitive side effects were soon overcome or I learned to handle them accordingly (Like an alcoholic, they still feel drunk and nice for the most part when they're drunk, yet many learn how to think "sober" while drunk... some to the point you won't even know when they're intoxicated).
Well, hope that helps. Remember, this is just from my experience. Oh, so back to the point... I think the reason many people that are SP drink, such as myself, is that it not only affects GABA and Seratonin, (as well as Opiods but just forget that for arguments sake) it also raises dopamine levels significantly. That's a perfect combo for SP's; disinhibition, less fear, more social desire, confidence!
Posted by Else on July 22, 2001, at 9:17:38
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by JackD on July 22, 2001, at 5:49:38
Yeah I agree Jack. I once seriously comsidered forcing myself into alcoholism but I don't tolerate alcohol very well. And alcohol on your breath is not good for socializing outside of bars and parties. People tend not to take you seriously at best, and for a boozer at worst.
I know all about dopamine. I've done cocaine more than a few times (it's a heck of a lot stronger than Ritalin, I think). Anyway, it made me feel normal (when I took it with alcohol), but after a while it only made me angry and hostile towards everyone(especially when I skipped the booze which I had to because I was on Depakote,long story). Of course, cocaine is not the ideal psychiatric drug, even Freud figured out that much. But I think I would do ok on a mild , long-acting stimulant, combined with the Klonopin I already take to decrease anxiety. It would be perfect. Of course, my pharmacist would give me one of those looks, but fuck her. I am pretty sure of this because I have never FUNCTIONNED better then when I was on that Parnate/Valium combo last year and Parnate acts a bit like an amphetamine at first.Serotonin is weird. I have a theory about it, maybe I'm completely wrong but it's based on my own personnal experience. It basically goes: Pot is the opposite of Prozac. It induces in me all the syndromes SSRIs are supposed to cure (OCD, Bulimia, Panic Attacks, Extreme Anxiety...). But since pot stimulates serotonin release (or so it would appear), then SSRIs must decrease serotonin levels to lower anxiety-related symptoms somehow. It does so by obsure means but I've read that high serotonin levels were associated with high anxiety, not well-being. I've read this essay by a doctor who thinks SSRIs are "mood-buffers", not ADs and that they mostly prevent depressed patients with an "emotional safety net", assures them things will be OK (read the essay, I'm explaining it badly). It may be more complicated than that but it would explain why melancholics don't do so well on these and do better on TCAs. Does Prozac wear out serotoninergic neurons? Am I completely wrong? Am I ten years late? I need to look this up but thank you for "piquing" my curiosity. (french word, never mind).
Here is the URL, and BTW, everything else written by this doctor is fascinating.
http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/psychhuman.html
> I haven't read any of the responses to your post, so forgive me if I'm being repetitive (I'm too tired now to read through them all). I too have found significant dopamine function in SP related problems; especially from tinkering with my own brain. Now, I have ADD, and that is usually from a lack of Dopamine among other things, and that basically makes your brain constantly seek stimuli, such as from day-dreaming or hyperactivity (which can manifest itself as introversion). When I take (abuse... sigh...) Ritalin, it makes me MUCH more confident and social.
>
> Here's my very superficial narrow rundown:
>
> Serotonin: Affects other neurotransmitter systems by sending "chill out!" messages, err..., disinhibiting messages. Makes me feel fearless and less emotional. Also increases desire to be sociable; I call it the "touchy-feely" neurotransmitter.
>
> Dopamine: Enhances/Magnifies behavior; ticks, habits, etc are worsened. General behavior and behavioral traits magnified. Affects drive, work capacity, and DEFINITELY confidence. In high doses in itself, leads to separation from friends (no need for them!, or so you feel), selfishness, and anger (as I said it magnifies behavior); I call it the "selfish" neurotransmitter.
>
> Norepinepherine: Hmmmmm....... haven't been able to discriminate it's unique effects. Supposedly affects ability to handle stress, motivation, and generally affecsts (enhances?) all the other neurotransmitters.
>
> GABA: Numbs the mind. Dims the lights. Takes the edge off. Disinhibiting. Similar to being in a slightly dumbed down alcoholic stupor. Great for anxiety. With me, the poor memory and any negative cognitive side effects were soon overcome or I learned to handle them accordingly (Like an alcoholic, they still feel drunk and nice for the most part when they're drunk, yet many learn how to think "sober" while drunk... some to the point you won't even know when they're intoxicated).
>
> Well, hope that helps. Remember, this is just from my experience. Oh, so back to the point... I think the reason many people that are SP drink, such as myself, is that it not only affects GABA and Seratonin, (as well as Opiods but just forget that for arguments sake) it also raises dopamine levels significantly. That's a perfect combo for SP's; disinhibition, less fear, more social desire, confidence!
Posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 12:54:14
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
I have SP and bipolar. From all my drug experiences and their effect on SP I would agree that meds that boost dopamine do help with SP, but they only seem to help "one-side" of the SP. That is, SP can or is a two-fold problem. You fear social situations (avoidance) and possibly you aren't *interested* in them either (no desire to *approach*). I have troubles with both of these (esp. when depressed).
The dopamine boost helps with interest-that is you WANT to do things and be around other people, but *activating* meds that boost DA like Adderall/Wellbutrin i.e., can make you MORE panicky (which can worsen *avoidance*). I found that low-dose Adderall combined with a low-dose atypical antipsychotic (in my case Risperdal and then Seroquel) worked rather well, but then you run the risk of tardive dyskinesia, and I got dystonia from Risperdal.
I wonder if a combination of Adderall (to increase approach) with Klonopin (to reduce avoidance) would be workable?? I have never been on those two simultaneously. Both are controlled substances-I am sure you would get a lot of raised eyebrows from pharmacists with that combo.
> I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
Posted by Else on July 22, 2001, at 16:03:21
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 12:54:14
I don't see myself as unsociable really. In fact, most of the time I HATE being alone and I don't need a drug to make me enjoy other people's company. The main problem, as I see it, is inhibition (at least in my case). I am chronically inhibited and this goes for decision-making and social behavior. It takes me forever to make up my mind about the most unsignficant things because I worry so much (I also have GAD). When applied to social behavior, this inhibition translates into social phobia (for example; trying to figure out the EXACT right thing to say and then worrying that it was a bad idea afterwards). It's like, when you're manic (I've been hypomanic), decision making is a snap but when you're depressed deciding whether you want 1 or 2 creams in your coffee is difficult. It's the same thing for me except I don't really feel depressed. Or maybe I've been feeling this way for so long I don't interpret this as depression. But I picture some sort of decision-making aptitude continuum, where at one end you are paralysed by doubt and incapable of even getting out of bed (psychological akinisia, the link to Parkinson's is weak but interesting) and at the other, you do a lot of stupid things because every idea you get seems brilliant (as is the case in psychotic mania). Both stimulants and sedatives (including alcohol) have this dishinibitory effect which is what I need. I find the two drug types complete rather than antagonize each other.
The tranquilizers help with the anxiety caused by the stimulants and the stimulants help with the cognitive dullness produced by the tranquilizers. Of course, any anti-drug ayatollah will tell you that's the worst possible combination and leads to ADDICTION. I contend it's the best. There used to be this drug in the 60's called Dexamyl which was a Dexedrine/Amytal combo. Switch the Amytal to something less lethal like say Valium or Klonopin and were on to something. The pharmaceutical companies have known this a long time but they are such good corporate citizens (ahem), they would never produce another drug like this one. But a long-acting drug like this one is what a lot of people need. It has been shown that people with SP have lowered dopamine levels when compared to normals. Why not use anti-parkinsonnian drugs? I know some doctors already do. I hope word gets around.> I have SP and bipolar. From all my drug experiences and their effect on SP I would agree that meds that boost dopamine do help with SP, but they only seem to help "one-side" of the SP. That is, SP can or is a two-fold problem. You fear social situations (avoidance) and possibly you aren't *interested* in them either (no desire to *approach*). I have troubles with both of these (esp. when depressed).
>
> The dopamine boost helps with interest-that is you WANT to do things and be around other people, but *activating* meds that boost DA like Adderall/Wellbutrin i.e., can make you MORE panicky (which can worsen *avoidance*). I found that low-dose Adderall combined with a low-dose atypical antipsychotic (in my case Risperdal and then Seroquel) worked rather well, but then you run the risk of tardive dyskinesia, and I got dystonia from Risperdal.
>
> I wonder if a combination of Adderall (to increase approach) with Klonopin (to reduce avoidance) would be workable?? I have never been on those two simultaneously. Both are controlled substances-I am sure you would get a lot of raised eyebrows from pharmacists with that combo.
>
> > I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
Posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 17:38:01
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Mitch, posted by Else on July 22, 2001, at 16:03:21
Well, I do know that Adderall reduced my mood cycling and prevented major depression. Klonopin works the best for SP of anything I have taken (and as far as inhibition as well). Another combo that might get close to that would be Klonopin+Selegeline (the selegiline breaks down into methedrine and is used for Parkinsons's).
The closest thing without involving a controlled substance would probably be Neurontin+Wellbutrin or something akin to that (or an MAOI).
You mentioned indecisiveness. I also have ADHD and ADHD meds like Adderall wiped out my indecisiveness. I just knew what I wanted and got it. I actually was quieter when I was around people on Adderall, but I wasn't *worrying* about what to say, it did a good job of eliminating "uncomfortable silences". I was into games big time. "Hell with small talk-let's play poker!" was a typical response.
As long as I am out of bad depression I WANT to be around others, too. It just REALLY sucks when you are inhibited AND you don't want any company as well.
> I don't see myself as unsociable really. In fact, most of the time I HATE being alone and I don't need a drug to make me enjoy other people's company. The main problem, as I see it, is inhibition (at least in my case). I am chronically inhibited and this goes for decision-making and social behavior. It takes me forever to make up my mind about the most unsignficant things because I worry so much (I also have GAD). When applied to social behavior, this inhibition translates into social phobia (for example; trying to figure out the EXACT right thing to say and then worrying that it was a bad idea afterwards). It's like, when you're manic (I've been hypomanic), decision making is a snap but when you're depressed deciding whether you want 1 or 2 creams in your coffee is difficult. It's the same thing for me except I don't really feel depressed. Or maybe I've been feeling this way for so long I don't interpret this as depression. But I picture some sort of decision-making aptitude continuum, where at one end you are paralysed by doubt and incapable of even getting out of bed (psychological akinisia, the link to Parkinson's is weak but interesting) and at the other, you do a lot of stupid things because every idea you get seems brilliant (as is the case in psychotic mania). Both stimulants and sedatives (including alcohol) have this dishinibitory effect which is what I need. I find the two drug types complete rather than antagonize each other.
> The tranquilizers help with the anxiety caused by the stimulants and the stimulants help with the cognitive dullness produced by the tranquilizers. Of course, any anti-drug ayatollah will tell you that's the worst possible combination and leads to ADDICTION. I contend it's the best. There used to be this drug in the 60's called Dexamyl which was a Dexedrine/Amytal combo. Switch the Amytal to something less lethal like say Valium or Klonopin and were on to something. The pharmaceutical companies have known this a long time but they are such good corporate citizens (ahem), they would never produce another drug like this one. But a long-acting drug like this one is what a lot of people need. It has been shown that people with SP have lowered dopamine levels when compared to normals. Why not use anti-parkinsonnian drugs? I know some doctors already do. I hope word gets around.
Posted by Neal on July 22, 2001, at 19:11:49
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
I've been told by my pdoc and read here and in several books that as far as AD's for Social Phobia, Nardil is the "gold standard" Anyone care to agree or disagree?
-Neal
Posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 22:48:45
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Neal on July 22, 2001, at 19:11:49
Neal,
I have also heard that MAOI+clonazepam is the "ideal" treatment combo (talking efficacy here-not safety or side effect issues). But, from what I have been told Parnate (tranylcypromine) was the "gold standard" not Nardil (phenelzine), because Parnate had more to do with dopamine enhancement, although I have heard that Nardil enhances whole-brain GABA functioning.
> I've been told by my pdoc and read here and in several books that as far as AD's for Social Phobia, Nardil is the "gold standard" Anyone care to agree or disagree?
>
> -Neal
Posted by Else on July 23, 2001, at 5:55:49
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 17:38:01
> Well, I do know that Adderall reduced my mood cycling and prevented major depression. Klonopin works the best for SP of anything I have taken (and as far as inhibition as well). Another combo that might get close to that would be Klonopin+Selegeline (the selegiline breaks down into methedrine and is used for Parkinsons's).
Selegiline sounds good and relatively innocuous. My doctor might not be opposed to it. As for Klonopin, I'm already on it and it's great. I feel like a different person. I can chit chat with strangers at the grocery store, I can return a meal if I'm not satisfied. A dopamine agonist would improve on that though. Parnate did and it stimulates dopamine to some extent. Unfortunately Adderall is not availlable in Canada but Dexedrine is. It probably has a similar effect.
> The closest thing without involving a controlled substance would probably be Neurontin+Wellbutrin or something akin to that (or an MAOI).
I'm already on Neurontin. It doesn't do much but I do think it stabilizes my mood and this is the kind of effect that is hard to detect unless you stop taking the drug and go beserk. I also take Wellbutrin but it cause some annoying neurological side-effects I find worrisome (twitching, tremors, stifness in the back of my neck). One GP said these were extra-pyramidal effects and that scared the hell out of me. Now I only take 150mg a day because it does help me with my ADD or pseudo-ADD.
> You mentioned indecisiveness. I also have ADHD and ADHD meds like Adderall wiped out my indecisiveness. I just knew what I wanted and got it. I actually was quieter when I was around people on Adderall, but I wasn't *worrying* about what to say, it did a good job of eliminating "uncomfortable silences". I was into games big time. "Hell with small talk-let's play poker!" was a typical response.
Klonopin does this too but the best I've tried for this was Parnate. It made me so fluent. It's like all these words I stumbled upon for years just magically came out. My friends said I was like a used-car salesman on this which I'm not sure is a compliment but it goes to show it made me a great deal more confident. It also made me able to tolerate silence *because* I was so confident.> As long as I am out of bad depression I WANT to be around others, too. It just REALLY sucks when you are inhibited AND you don't want any company as well.
Well, I don't now. To me the two are completely opposite, it seems. The only times I don't want company is when I become obsessive about something (a book, a *website*, a cd, whatever) and don't want to be bothered OR when I get a bit high on myself (or drugs) and feel superior to my friends and familly and want nothing to do with these *losers*. I don't do drugs anymore though, not cocaine anyway. But that brings up an unfortunnate side effect of stimulants which is egotism and possibly hostility (not good for socializing. Of course cocaine is not a good example. It's one of the worst drugs out there as far as EVERYTHING goes except maybe intense euphoria.Of course there are those times when I feel too low and pathetic to be seen in public but that's a little different.
> > I don't see myself as unsociable really. In fact, most of the time I HATE being alone and I don't need a drug to make me enjoy other people's company. The main problem, as I see it, is inhibition (at least in my case). I am chronically inhibited and this goes for decision-making and social behavior. It takes me forever to make up my mind about the most unsignficant things because I worry so much (I also have GAD). When applied to social behavior, this inhibition translates into social phobia (for example; trying to figure out the EXACT right thing to say and then worrying that it was a bad idea afterwards). It's like, when you're manic (I've been hypomanic), decision making is a snap but when you're depressed deciding whether you want 1 or 2 creams in your coffee is difficult. It's the same thing for me except I don't really feel depressed. Or maybe I've been feeling this way for so long I don't interpret this as depression. But I picture some sort of decision-making aptitude continuum, where at one end you are paralysed by doubt and incapable of even getting out of bed (psychological akinisia, the link to Parkinson's is weak but interesting) and at the other, you do a lot of stupid things because every idea you get seems brilliant (as is the case in psychotic mania). Both stimulants and sedatives (including alcohol) have this dishinibitory effect which is what I need. I find the two drug types complete rather than antagonize each other.
> > The tranquilizers help with the anxiety caused by the stimulants and the stimulants help with the cognitive dullness produced by the tranquilizers. Of course, any anti-drug ayatollah will tell you that's the worst possible combination and leads to ADDICTION. I contend it's the best. There used to be this drug in the 60's called Dexamyl which was a Dexedrine/Amytal combo. Switch the Amytal to something less lethal like say Valium or Klonopin and were on to something. The pharmaceutical companies have known this a long time but they are such good corporate citizens (ahem), they would never produce another drug like this one. But a long-acting drug like this one is what a lot of people need. It has been shown that people with SP have lowered dopamine levels when compared to normals. Why not use anti-parkinsonnian drugs? I know some doctors already do. I hope word gets around.
Posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 13:26:36
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Mitch, posted by Else on July 23, 2001, at 5:55:49
After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
Posted by Mitch on July 23, 2001, at 15:32:13
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 13:26:36
Jojo,
I kind of like that! If you catch yourself ruminating over something that can't be helped NOW or something that doesn't require any real decision anyway (which is troubling you), then you can just PARK IT SOMEWHERE ELSE, and move on to something worthwhile. Sounds like CBT. I like *practical* examples of ways to help. I get so tired of theorizing from pdocs. I just want to yell with a megaphone sometimes: OK, IS THERE SOMETHING *SPECIFIC* THAT I CAN DO *HERE AND NOW* (or possibly tomorrow!), ...please.
Mitch
> After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
Posted by Else on July 23, 2001, at 18:03:26
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 13:26:36
Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
> After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
Posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 22:22:30
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 23, 2001, at 18:03:26
> Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
>
>
>
>
> > After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
When you're insane? It's hard to follow anytime,
but realizing that deliberating more doesn't give
one any better chance of success is one of the reasons it's
considered 'the way of the warrior'.I don't know how is effects Compulsives, but for Obsessives and Depressives, it
gives them the "Strength to Get Up and Do What Needs To Be Done" (plagiarized from
Garrison Keillor, re. Powder Milk Biscuits. It does help Obsessives overcome certain
difficulties in beginning something if they realize that it is the act of starting
that is more important than what is started. Almost intuitively, one knows that
starting after seven breaths is better than starting, or not yet starting, after seven
times ten thousand breaths.Schizophrenics and everyone else out there, including the "normal" lurkers will have
to decide for themselves.
Posted by Else on July 24, 2001, at 6:01:59
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 22:22:30
I meant me, and insane is more a figure of speech here although a strange one. My grip on reality is probably adequate. I just find it insane to look at a menu for thirty minute before you make-up your mind like I sometimes do (and then let someone else decide). But I find usually it's because I'm depressed and neither choices are particullarly appealling. Decision-making is harder when both choices are negative. It's a good quotation though, I agree with you. But then, I've just spent the last seven years trying to decide whether I should move out of my appartment.
I think the expiry date must have ran out some time ago.> > Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
>
>
> When you're insane? It's hard to follow anytime,
> but realizing that deliberating more doesn't give
> one any better chance of success is one of the reasons it's
> considered 'the way of the warrior'.
>
> I don't know how is effects Compulsives, but for Obsessives and Depressives, it
> gives them the "Strength to Get Up and Do What Needs To Be Done" (plagiarized from
> Garrison Keillor, re. Powder Milk Biscuits. It does help Obsessives overcome certain
> difficulties in beginning something if they realize that it is the act of starting
> that is more important than what is started. Almost intuitively, one knows that
> starting after seven breaths is better than starting, or not yet starting, after seven
> times ten thousand breaths.
>
> Schizophrenics and everyone else out there, including the "normal" lurkers will have
> to decide for themselves.
Posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 10:55:27
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 24, 2001, at 6:01:59
> I meant me, and insane is more a figure of speech here although a strange one. My grip on reality is probably adequate. I just find it insane to look at a menu for thirty minute before you make-up your mind like I sometimes do (and then let someone else decide). But I find usually it's because I'm depressed and neither choices are particullarly appealling. Decision-making is harder when both choices are negative. It's a good quotation though, I agree with you. But then, I've just spent the last seven years trying to decide whether I should move out of my appartment.
> I think the expiry date must have ran out some time ago.
>
>
>
> > > Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
> >
> >
> > When you're insane? It's hard to follow anytime,
> > but realizing that deliberating more doesn't give
> > one any better chance of success is one of the reasons it's
> > considered 'the way of the warrior'.
> >
> > I don't know how is effects Compulsives, but for Obsessives and Depressives, it
> > gives them the "Strength to Get Up and Do What Needs To Be Done" (plagiarized from
> > Garrison Keillor, re. Powder Milk Biscuits. It does help Obsessives overcome certain
> > difficulties in beginning something if they realize that it is the act of starting
> > that is more important than what is started. Almost intuitively, one knows that
> > starting after seven breaths is better than starting, or not yet starting, after seven
> > times ten thousand breaths.
> >
> > Schizophrenics and everyone else out there, including the "normal" lurkers will have
> > to decide for themselves.No need to agonize over it. Take seven breaths,
then go and look at ONE available apartment.
That's your one decision. After that, something might happen.
Posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 11:25:45
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 10:55:27
> > I meant me, and insane is more a figure of speech here although a strange one. My grip on reality is probably adequate. I just find it insane to look at a menu for thirty minute before you make-up your mind like I sometimes do (and then let someone else decide). But I find usually it's because I'm depressed and neither choices are particullarly appealling. Decision-making is harder when both choices are negative. It's a good quotation though, I agree with you. But then, I've just spent the last seven years trying to decide whether I should move out of my appartment.
> > I think the expiry date must have ran out some time ago.
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just
as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
> > >
> > >
> > > When you're insane? It's hard to follow anytime,
> > > but realizing that deliberating more doesn't give
> > > one any better chance of success is one of the reasons it's
> > > considered 'the way of the warrior'.
> > >
> > > I don't know how is effects Compulsives, but for Obsessives and Depressives, it
> > > gives them the "Strength to Get Up and Do What Needs To Be Done" (plagiarized from
> > > Garrison Keillor, re. Powder Milk Biscuits. It does help Obsessives overcome certain
> > > difficulties in beginning something if they realize that it is the act of starting
> > > that is more important than what is started. Almost intuitively, one knows that
> > > starting after seven breaths is better than starting, or not yet starting, after seven
> > > times ten thousand breaths.
> > >
> > > Schizophrenics and everyone else out there, including the "normal" lurkers will have
> > > to decide for themselves.
>
> No need to agonize over it. Take seven breaths,
> then go and look at ONE available apartment.
> That's your one decision. After that, something
might happen.BTW, is "Elsa" your real name? I've often found that it takes me 15 minutes or more to
choose a pseudonym. On some boards, I haven't joined because I couldn't think of an
appropriate handle.
jojo
Posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 11:32:25
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia Elsa, posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 11:25:45
I'm sorry. Of course it's Else.
Posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 11:50:22
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » jojo, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 20:10:41
Else-I'm sorry to act like such a know-it-all asshole, but take seven breaths, and then have an extra key
made. After that, you may decide to put it somewhere that is accessable when you lock yourself out.I just fixed a problem that has been bugging me six months. It took six months and two minutes to fix it!
Posted by Else on July 24, 2001, at 19:44:53
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 10:55:27
I have, once. It was a slum and the super scared me. I though he would never let me leave without singing the bail. I practically ran out. It was very traumatic (snif). I do have a bit more money now though.
> No need to agonize over it. Take seven breaths,
> then go and look at ONE available apartment.
> That's your one decision. After that, something might happen.
Posted by Else on July 24, 2001, at 19:49:38
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia Elsa, posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 11:25:45
> BTW, is "Elsa" your real name? I've often found that it takes me 15 minutes or more to
> choose a pseudonym. On some boards, I haven't joined because I couldn't think of an
> appropriate handle.
> jojoDon't you just love the mystery in all of this. Just pick characters from your favorite movies or books, preferably ones you can relate to.
> > > I meant me, and insane is more a figure of speech here although a strange one. My grip on reality is probably adequate. I just find it insane to look at a menu for thirty minute before you make-up your mind like I sometimes do (and then let someone else decide). But I find usually it's because I'm depressed and neither choices are particullarly appealling. Decision-making is harder when both choices are negative. It's a good quotation though, I agree with you. But then, I've just spent the last seven years trying to decide whether I should move out of my appartment.
> > > I think the expiry date must have ran out some time ago.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just
> as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > When you're insane? It's hard to follow anytime,
> > > > but realizing that deliberating more doesn't give
> > > > one any better chance of success is one of the reasons it's
> > > > considered 'the way of the warrior'.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know how is effects Compulsives, but for Obsessives and Depressives, it
> > > > gives them the "Strength to Get Up and Do What Needs To Be Done" (plagiarized from
> > > > Garrison Keillor, re. Powder Milk Biscuits. It does help Obsessives overcome certain
> > > > difficulties in beginning something if they realize that it is the act of starting
> > > > that is more important than what is started. Almost intuitively, one knows that
> > > > starting after seven breaths is better than starting, or not yet starting, after seven
> > > > times ten thousand breaths.
> > > >
> > > > Schizophrenics and everyone else out there, including the "normal" lurkers will have
> > > > to decide for themselves.
> >
> > No need to agonize over it. Take seven breaths,
> > then go and look at ONE available apartment.
> > That's your one decision. After that, something
> might happen.
>
Posted by Else on July 24, 2001, at 19:50:41
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia Else, posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 11:32:25
It doesn't matter, the pronunciation is the same.
> I'm sorry. Of course it's Else.
Posted by Else on July 24, 2001, at 19:56:53
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 11:50:22
Were those six months really necessary? That is the question. Perhaps they were essential to your finding enlightenment during those two glorious minutes. This is not buddhist stuff. I'm not into spirituality or anything like that. I am as cartesian as it gets .I just believe your brain kind of works "behind your back" ,while you're busy vacuuming or doing whatever and then POP comes the answer. It's a beautiful thing.
> Else-I'm sorry to act like such a know-it-all asshole, but take seven breaths, and then have an extra key
> made. After that, you may decide to put it somewhere that is accessable when you lock yourself out.
>
> I just fixed a problem that has been bugging me six months. It took six months and two minutes to fix it!
Posted by jojo on July 24, 2001, at 20:15:05
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia Elsa, posted by Else on July 24, 2001, at 19:49:38
> > BTW, is "Elsa" your real name? I've often found that it takes me 15 minutes or more to
> > choose a pseudonym. On some boards, I haven't joined because I couldn't think of an
> > appropriate handle.
> > jojo
>
> Don't you just love the mystery in all of this. Just pick characters from your favorite movies or books, preferably ones you can relate to.
>
>
> > > > I meant me, and insane is more a figure of speech here although a strange one. My grip on reality is probably adequate. I just find it insane to look at a menu for thirty minute before you make-up your mind like I sometimes do (and then let someone else decide). But I find usually it's because I'm depressed and neither choices are particullarly appealling. Decision-making is harder when both choices are negative. It's a good quotation though, I agree with you. But then, I've just spent the last seven years trying to decide whether I should move out of my appartment.
> > > > I think the expiry date must have ran out some time ago.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just
> > as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > When you're insane? It's hard to follow anytime,
> > > > > but realizing that deliberating more doesn't give
> > > > > one any better chance of success is one of the reasons it's
> > > > > considered 'the way of the warrior'.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know how is effects Compulsives, but for Obsessives and Depressives, it
> > > > > gives them the "Strength to Get Up and Do What Needs To Be Done" (plagiarized from
> > > > > Garrison Keillor, re. Powder Milk Biscuits. It does help Obsessives overcome certain
> > > > > difficulties in beginning something if they realize that it is the act of starting
> > > > > that is more important than what is started. Almost intuitively, one knows that
> > > > > starting after seven breaths is better than starting, or not yet starting, after seven
> > > > > times ten thousand breaths.
> > > > >
> > > > > Schizophrenics and everyone else out there, including the "normal" lurkers will have
> > > > > to decide for themselves.
> > >
> > > No need to agonize over it. Take seven breaths,
> > > then go and look at ONE available apartment.
> > > That's your one decision. After that, something
> > might happen.
> >Yes, the mystery can add another dimension, but so can the honesty. I've often found that it takes me 15 minutes or more to choose a pseudonym. On some boards, I haven't joined because I couldn't
think of an appropriate handle.. I consider that a symptom of mine because it lacks rationality..
jojo
Posted by bilgi on May 17, 2003, at 8:59:36
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 17:38:01
Hi,
So, I have read a article about caffein. Caffeine increases dopamine level in the brain.Therefore, can coffee use in SP?
I have tried Lustral(sertraline)for 6 month. It was useful, but I was a lazy then.That's to say, dopamine level decreases while serotonin levels increase like see-saw.In my opinion dopamine is a key substance in SP.
Have a nice day. :))
Posted by Michael Bell on May 18, 2003, at 20:36:59
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by bilgi on May 17, 2003, at 8:59:36
>There are several studies showing that caffeine induces panic attacks in social phobics about twice as much as in "normal" individuals. As far as the reason for that, I'm not sure, but I'd shy away from using caffeine to treat SP.
Hi,
> So, I have read a article about caffein. Caffeine increases dopamine level in the brain.Therefore, can coffee use in SP?
> I have tried Lustral(sertraline)for 6 month. It was useful, but I was a lazy then.That's to say, dopamine level decreases while serotonin levels increase like see-saw.
>
> In my opinion dopamine is a key substance in SP.
> Have a nice day. :))
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