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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by dshort on July 11, 2001, at 9:10:08
In reply to Re: I did it--finally! » dshort, posted by paulk on July 10, 2001, at 22:09:41
Sorry,should have added that long term use of Effexor does damage to the central nervous system .A very good book to read is "Prozac Backlash" by Joseph Glenmullen.A person should be getting help from a psychologist while being treated for depression because the drugs mask the problems that caused the depression in the first place and they will still be there when you stop taking the drugs if not sufficiently dealt with.
Posted by paulk on July 11, 2001, at 15:42:04
In reply to Re: I did it--finally!, posted by dshort on July 11, 2001, at 9:10:08
I guess I disagree – I don’t think he quotes any scientific research to support such an opinion. In fact SSRIs have been show to promote new Neuron formation that have the ability to actually repair the brain.
On the other hand, there is research that shows that psychotherapy fails to show any lasting effect. Measuring objective data (such as ability to keep a job, completing school, prevention of suicide etc.) shows that 5 years later there is no benefit. (There is I feel some benefit in a therapist arbitrating relationships). With psychotherapy about 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 stay the same – without psychotherapy about 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 stay the same.
Of course, continuous pharmatherapy has much better statistics and there is some (but controversial) evidence that shows lasting improvement after stopping SSRIs.
Posted by MB on July 11, 2001, at 17:47:57
In reply to I did it--finally!, posted by dshort on July 10, 2001, at 20:37:40
> >I used a little machine called a CES,cranial electro stimulator.The brand of the one I used is Alpha-Stim.It stimulates the pleasure center of the brain,not in a big way,but enough to take the edge off,it really helped with the shaking.It is the best non-drug thing to help with withdrawal.Please tell me more about this machine. It sounds interesting. Do you think it would have any benificial efects on depression when used alone?
> >Another thing that helped me very much was colored light therapy.This is also interesting. I wonder if anyone out there has any information regarding flashing lights and their effect on depression. Two days ago, I was in a room with a ceiling fan than spun right under a bright light. I closed my eyes and looked up at it. The frequency of the flicker must have been "just right." For what, however, I don't know. All I know is that it felt like it "tuned up" my brain, or something. The slurry of racing thoughts in my mind came to a halt, and I felt like something "clicked" into normalcy. When I opened my eyes, however, it was gone. It felt really good, though...pleasantly, meditativly hypnotic.
Posted by dshort on July 12, 2001, at 0:01:38
In reply to Re: I did it--finally! » dshort, posted by MB on July 11, 2001, at 17:47:57
I do not know how the CES machine works for depression but it is supposed to be helpful for depression.There is info. on the internet for the Alpha-Stim and phone numbers of dealers that you can reach,they are trained in how and when to use them.I first rented mine from the doctor to see if it would help me and then I knew of an acquaintance that sold them so bought mine from him.
For the light therapy ,there is a book out ,"Light Years Ahead" .My doctor wrote the third chapter in that book.Interesting,your experience with the light that flickered as that is how he uses the lights,at different flicker rates and different colors to stimulate various parts of the thinking.
Posted by girlie on July 12, 2001, at 13:54:25
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by Terry Comeau on July 10, 2001, at 22:19:37
Terry,
Did you go off of Effexor cold turkey? Just as you were eased onto the mg you were taking, you also need to be eased off. Mine was just backed down, by my doctor, from 300mg/day to 225mg/day. While I do have some of the side effects of withdrawl, I am certainly able to function.It seems that many of the severe withdrawl symptoms come from people who just stop taking it, or reduce their doseage too quickly, possibly without doctor supervision.
Effexor XR has been AWESOME for me and made a huge POSITIVE difference in my life. I would never tell anyone not to try it. JMHO
> I have used effexor from October 2000 up
> until July 5 2001. The stuff seemed to work
> and I was quite happy with the treatment.
> That is until I discontinued it. Since being
> off the stuff I have suffered dizziness and
> other very disturbing after/side effects.
> I have just discovered that many people have
> suffered these types of side effects for months
> and months after discontinuing the treatments.
> My job requires me to be focused and very sharp
> day in and day out. I am having a lot of trouble
> with concentration because of the lasting effects
> of this drug.
> Needless to say I am really pissed of. DO NOT USE
> THIS DRUG unless you suffer from severe problems.
> The long lasting (who knows how long lasting?)
> after affects of this drug are just not worth
> the little amount of relief I got from my anxiety
> induced disthymia.
> Again DO NOT USE THIS DRUG unless you want an entirely
> different set of lingering problems.
Posted by jotho on July 12, 2001, at 15:32:02
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? » Terry Comeau, posted by girlie on July 12, 2001, at 13:54:25
Girlie...Two things, three actually, first, congatulations on your success with Effexor. Second, I, and I would bet many, on this posting site were never told by our doctor of the possible extent and severity that might accompany the taking, and stopping, of Effexor. Third, before I did stop I read about many instances of problems and decided to withdraw slowly. I was on the lower dosage of 75 mg. I reduced it by 1/4 and stayed on it for over a week at which time I reduced it by another 1/4 (of the original dosage). I followed this procedure (taking over a month) till finally I stopped totally. It is between 3-4 weeks now since I stopped and the notorious "brain swooshing" is still there (not as bad, though). I also still have problems sleeping, and I still have the involuntary jerkiness in my legs as I try to fall asleep. My wife says this occurs even after I have taken a sleep aid and am in a deep sleep................john
Posted by susan C on July 12, 2001, at 16:39:42
In reply to CES and light therapy, posted by dshort on July 12, 2001, at 0:01:38
Ahhh, alpha stim 100, it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. My diagnosis was chronic clinical depression, the combo of prozac and trazadone had stopped working after 6 years (of what I know was manic bliss) and no med seemed to work. I found out about the concept,CES, via an obsure ad in a new age magazine I happened to pick up that said something like 'depressed, try this' and researched it on the net, and Alpha Stim was the only one for sale that was/is FDA approved. I also called all three and asked for a Medical Doctor referral. When the distributor for my area called, she referred me to my own doctor! He had used it successfully for confusion in a brain injured patient and a psychologist in his office uses it a lot (about 100 patients) with varying results, about 70% get some benefit, if I remember right. Then I insisted my pdoc prescribe it, which he could only do and have insurance cover it, if I had chronic pain, which I did, so he did. He and I argued about whether or not it was working. But I had journaled my experience: within 10 days I was sleeping better and feeling better. I used it for about a year, then had a return of suicidal ideation, I increased the time, frequency, everything...it had stopped working as things tend to do.
> I do not know how the CES machine works for depression but it is supposed to be helpful for depression.There is info. on the internet for the Alpha-Stim and phone numbers of dealers that you can reach,they are trained in how and when to use them.I first rented mine from the doctor to see if it would help me and then I knew of an acquaintance that sold them so bought mine from him.
>
> For the light therapy ,there is a book out ,"Light Years Ahead" .My doctor wrote the third chapter in that book.Interesting,your experience with the light that flickered as that is how he uses the lights,at different flicker rates and different colors to stimulate various parts of the thinking.
Posted by ksc on July 13, 2001, at 8:28:21
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jotho on July 12, 2001, at 15:32:02
JOHN WROTE: Girlie...Two things, three actually, first, congatulations on your success with Effexor. Second, I, and I would bet many, on this posting site were never told by our doctor of the possible extent and severity that might accompany the taking, and stopping, of Effexor. Third, before I did stop I read about many instances of problems and decided to withdraw slowly. I was on the lower dosage of 75 mg. I reduced it by 1/4 and stayed on it for over a week at which time I reduced it by another 1/4 (of the original dosage). I followed this procedure (taking over a month) till finally I stopped totally. It is between 3-4 weeks now since I stopped and the notorious "brain swooshing" is still there (not as bad, though). I also still have problems sleeping, and I still have the involuntary jerkiness in my legs as I try to fall asleep. My wife says this occurs even after I have taken a sleep aid and am in a deep sleep................john
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DITTO here John!!! I was on 112.5mg and tappered down 37.5mg at a time for at least a week each time. I've been off completely for nearly 2 weeks now, but I too am having continuing side affects, almost identical to yours. I'm curious about this "notorious brain swooshing" though. I'm wondering if you could describe it in a little more detail for me, because I've been having this "whooshing" sound in my ears since early spring; about 4 months now(I've been on the meds since early October-about 9 mos.). Which I can only describe as a loud heartbeat, sounding sort of like "whooosh, whoosh, whoosh" which goes to the beat of my heart. Is this anything like your swooshing? It's especially loud when it's quiet, and has been driving me nuts. I didn't know if it was a side affet to the meds or something else.Thanks KSC
Posted by jotho on July 13, 2001, at 9:12:25
In reply to Question for Jotho, posted by ksc on July 13, 2001, at 8:28:21
To KSC...First off, I believe (and you should verify this with your doctor and follow through on his advice) that Effexor can elevate blood pressure, in which case your symptom might possibly relate to this. The "swooshing" I, and many others refer to, is more of a strange, electrical pulsing, kind of like a low-voltage humming, going on in the head . At times it can be accompanied by mild (in my case) dizziness. Please remember that the problems we all describe here are varied (there are MANY) and the ones we do have in common often have variations. In any case, I would make sure about the blood-pressure thing, see what the doctor says, and post the results back up here for us all to see.......good luck, john
Posted by ksc on July 13, 2001, at 9:35:00
In reply to Re: withdrawal, posted by messica on July 4, 2001, at 16:09:35
Messica,
It sounds to me as though this particular drug is not working for you. There are plenty of them out there to try, but it's up to you as to whether or not you want to keep going witht he meds or try to make it without them.One word of advise...Take some time and find a new doctor... a good one... insist on one that will spend some time with you and follow you through this thing. I had one who never should have put me on this thing to begin with, and then when I wanted to stop left me a voice mail message saying..."sure go ahead...although you might want to taper off over about a week"... YEAH RIGHT....Try a few weeks (or more depending on the dosage amount) and being monitored the whole time thank you very much. That was my que to leave and find a new doctor... now I have a great one who really listens and understands...Don't settle for anything less.. this is your life and your body... don't let some doctor who's too busy to care, ruin your life. You deserve better!!!
Best of luck to you... and be careful!!!
Posted by ksc on July 13, 2001, at 9:54:21
In reply to Re: Question for Jotho, posted by jotho on July 13, 2001, at 9:12:25
Hi John,
Funny you should mention blood pressure. I have had moderately high blood pressure since I was about 27 yrs old (33 now)... and have been taking medication for it for about 2 yrs (has been under control whole time with meds - even now). The whooshing started about 4 months ago, 5 months after taking the Effexor and about a month before my Thyroid went mildly hypoactive. Thyroid's back in line but whooshing sound stays. New doc thinks could all be related...so complicated, very frustrating. I'll let ya'll know if it goes away with the other side affects.Thanks so much for your response, it's so nice to know other people are in the same boat, and care. :)
KSC
Posted by Monica on July 13, 2001, at 10:33:33
In reply to Re: withdrawal, posted by Rhonda on April 28, 2000, at 7:17:12
> >
Hi. My name is Monica. I have been on Effexor XR for about 5 months now and it really has helped with my depression alot! I'm very glad i decided to take it. One thing, though. I've read all these comments, and have identified with the symptoms some of you have reported in withdrawal. I haven't stopped taking it yet but twice i have missed a day taking it(right now being one of those times) and have experienced very withdrawal like symptoms: lightheadness, a feeling like i am moving in a dream-like state, inability to focus my eyes on things. I woke up like this today because i missed my dosage yesterday. It's scaring me! I'm glad to know that you guys have gone through this as well and i am not alone. My question is, how long should you stay on this before you decide to taper off of it. And will i feel this way when i am off of it for good? I don't want to live everyday like this! Thanks for your timeMonica
Posted by jotho on July 13, 2001, at 11:16:12
In reply to Re: withdrawal, posted by Monica on July 13, 2001, at 10:33:33
Monica...Some people's lives have certainly been saved by anti-depressants, but, just like a specific pill works for one person and not another, so too, can one suffer severe effects while others feel none or just mild ones. I never had the "one-day" occurrences you talk about. If I missed a day and caught up next day, there was no interuption by side-effects. Some on this post site will tell you to get off this med. immediately , while others will tell you they have had good results and that you should stick with it. I can only say that if I were taking Effexor and had tolerable (or no, hopefully) side-effects, and it was successful in treating the depression...I would stay on it. But!!!...If, comes a time, you are overwhelmed by side-effects, or the drug is no longer effective, or you are afraid of what the drug might be doing to you physiologically and you want to quit...TAKE YOUR TIME, even if you are one of those who have limited withdrawal symptons. Discuss it with your doctor and make sure you reduce the dosage gradually!!! There are postings here, and on other sites, that talk of withdrawal side-effects lasting many, many months (I saw several that said 18). There is just no set answer for everyone........take care and good luck to you......john
Posted by ksc on July 13, 2001, at 11:46:34
In reply to Re: withdrawal, posted by Monica on July 13, 2001, at 10:34:30
Monica,
It sounds as though you've already identified the cause of your symptoms on your own(missing your meds). So as the old doctor humor used to say... if it hurts when I do this... then do don't do it. In other words, just be really careful not to miss your medication, and see if you continue to have the side affects while taking them regularly. If you do, then you may want to consider changing to a different medication or going off them all together (very gradually of course and under a doctor's care).I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I took mine regularly and the symptoms got worse for me. But as you probably already know by reading this site... it's different for everyone. Now that you know what to look for, you can be more carful and expedient in your choices.
Best of luck to you
KSC
Posted by Deana on July 13, 2001, at 12:26:08
In reply to To Monica, posted by ksc on July 13, 2001, at 11:46:34
After being off for 13 days, my "brain swooshing" is gone! :) no nausea and no diziness! However since those terrible things went away, I have been experiencing nightmares, restless leg syndrome, and also a rash on my legs(previous to stopping). Have others experienced this rash? It is tremendously irritating, red and bumpy, raised patches ankle to thigh. I have tried everything. My PCP is not sure himself. I am almost sure all these symptoms are linked because they are at their worst together, particularly last night. Any advice or info would be most appreciated, Thankyou.
Posted by amp1 on July 13, 2001, at 12:26:50
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
i started out at 37.5 and noticed its effects within hours--side effects that is. my heart rate increased, i felt "wide awake", i was sweating, jittery, dizzy and nauseous. fortunately, i was determined and these side effects slowly went away and were replaced by the main effects, which were beginning to work, but not enough. So i went up to 75. The same side effects happened and again eventually went away, but the main effects weren't enough. I then went to a combination of 75 and 37.5 (which comes to 112.5) and again had the side effects for a couple of weeks, but when the main effects kicked in and replaced the side-effects, it was perfect.
It basically took the edge off the agony without bringing up my mood (picture a wavy line and knock out the bottoms but keep the highs and middles). And I'm still capable of crying on occasion (unlike other drugs, so I hear).
There's still some lingering side-effects that I can't get rid of: sexual dysfunction, elevated heart rate, and fluctuating insomnia vs. lethargy (but not as much as I used to have before starting effexor xr). But I don't mind them because the benefits far outweigh them.
I've been on it for almost two years now and will probably have to make a lifetime commitment to it.
Posted by Seraphim on July 13, 2001, at 21:37:18
In reply to withdrawal should be paid for by Wyeth-Ayerst, posted by Terry Comeau on July 10, 2001, at 22:30:07
> Considering the cost of the drug... and the largely unexpected length
> of withdrawal, as well of the horrible withdrawal effects , does
> agree that the manufacturer should be held responsible for the cost
> and damages that we incur as we struggle to get their drug out
> of our system?
> > Anybody agree with this? Someone should get a legal opinion regarding
> the validity of a class action lawsuit. Maybe this might be a good summer
> project to pursie.
>
> Needless to say I am PO'd to the extreme.Horrible doesn't begin to describe it! I agree wholeheartedly!
Seraphim
Posted by celest on July 16, 2001, at 3:52:18
In reply to Hate it! , posted by SCALLOPSHELL on April 13, 2001, at 7:42:19
>
I could not frinking agreee more!!!!I have been off of it and it gets works. jennifer if you reAD THIS i WAS WONDERING HOW GETTING OFF OF IT HAS WORKED FOR YOU. I THINK I SHOULD SO THE SAME. I HAVE BEEN OFF THIS FOR ABOUT TWOMONTHS AND STILL FEEL SIDE EFFECTS AND AM FREAKING OUT. CAN'T SLEEP,NO EMOTIONS ANYMORE, ALL THIS SHIT HELP CEL
I AM GOING OFF THIS AWFUL MEDICATION. IT HAS MADE ME EXTERMELY NAUSEOUS AND I HAVE BEEN VOMITING FOR 2 DAYS. I HAVEN'T WANTED TO GET OUT OF BED AND I FEEL VERY DEPRESSED. HATE IT! I'LL NEVER TAKE THIS AGAIN.
Posted by purple on July 18, 2001, at 13:18:00
In reply to withdrawal should be paid for by Wyeth-Ayerst, posted by Terry Comeau on July 10, 2001, at 22:30:07
It seems everyone is looking for someone to sue. Everyone makes their own decisions regarding prescription medication - and there is sufficient information out there on Effexor side effects and withdrawals. I know because I researched it BEFORE I started taking it, which sounds like what you should have done. There are a huge number of success stories out there for people on Effexor, can you put a price on that? Get over it, there are risks and side effects with almost any medication out there. You put it into your own body.
Posted by Jennzie on July 18, 2001, at 15:09:07
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
Hey y'all. I a mom of a 14 yo that is in a short term facility in Tulsa, OK. Without the benefit of a complete physical, the docs have prescribed xyprexa for her, discharged her and after having her take 40 coriciden and superficial cuts to her wrists they have readmitted her. Now they are wanting to prescribe Effexor with the xyprexa. Has anyone here had to deal with an adolescent and the effects of this or these drugs on them?
Any info you might have would be really appreciated.
Thanks
Jenn.
Posted by wren on July 18, 2001, at 18:00:21
In reply to Re: effexor xr and side effects - Ann and Judy, posted by Cam W. on April 23, 2000, at 23:08:36
>
i just started effexor xr (37.5) b/c i had too
much sleepiness & dizziness on prozac (20-40mg) -
anyone know which ADs are better for not causing
fatigue?
i tried to talk to my pdoc about Wellbutrin but
she seems to think it's only for smokers (??)
does anyone know if it's bad to combine
pseudoephedrine w/ ADs to combat the sleepiness?
Posted by Tiny1 on July 18, 2001, at 21:36:34
In reply to Re: effexor xr and side effects , posted by wren on July 18, 2001, at 18:00:21
I've been taking Effexor XR 75 mg. in the morning for some time. No side effects that really bother me. Doctor put me on Trazodone at night (25 mg.), which really helped me sleep better. I awake at 3:00 or 4:00 a.m., if I don't take it.
Warning: Do not take yourself off of Effexor. If you wish to wean off it, do so under the care of a doctor.
I forgot to take all my meds one day, and realized how much more energy I had. I decided that I would just quit taking the Effexor. The next day, I experienced some dizziness. The day after, I was on my way to the ER . . . severe and constant dizziness, staggering when I tried walking, crying about absolutely nothing (not like me at all), terrified about the way I felt. Took medication for motion sickness, and of course, began taking Effexor again, and in a couple of days, I was fine again.
I experience only slight depression, but there are times that I still become depressed, even being on Effexor. Of course, I am a relatively low dosage.
Tiny
Posted by ksc on July 19, 2001, at 9:20:46
In reply to Re: withdrawal should be paid for by Wyeth-Ayerst, posted by purple on July 18, 2001, at 13:18:00
PURPLE WROTE: I researched it BEFORE I started taking it, which sounds like what you should have done. There are a huge number of success stories out there for people on Effexor, can you put a price on that? Get over it, there are risks and side effects with almost any medication out there. You put it into your own body.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not sure the attitude is necessary, but thanks for the advice. Unfortunately it's a little too late for most of us, you see, some of us actually trusted the doctors who put us on this medication (Gee what a concept). But we’ll have to try and remember your great wisdom in hindsight.The information pamphlet that came from the pharmacy made light of the side affects and made it sound as if they were very mild and would go away in time. Besides every medication has possible side affects right? But who knew that 10 months of vivid dreams would cause nausia, dizziness, chronic fatigue and exhaustion, severe muscle pain and stiffness, inability to concentrate or focus and a lack of memory.
Have you ever stood up after sitting for a few hours and almost fallen on your face because your leg muscles wouldn’t work, and you virtually had to drag your legs along one at a time just so you could walk? Have you ever had to sleep for two straight days, just so you could get up enough energy to go to work on Monday? Has your memory ever been so bad that your friends and family could play jokes on you by telling you that you didn't do something and you believe them because you don't remember otherwise? Your concentration level so poor that you were afraid to drive your car to the store, for fear of running into the guy in front of you?
Combined, these are symptoms of a very painful and permanent disease called Fibromyalgia (imagine multiple sclerosis without the permanent muscle damage). Now imagine what it does to the psyche when your doctor tells you that she believes you have this? There’s no cure, so all you can think is “how am I going to live with this pain for the rest of my life? It’s crippling and it’s only going to get worse.” The last thing you’re thinking is, “Gee maybe this is just a side affect from my Effexor”.
So you see my “purple attitude” friend, the answer may sound very simple to you, but for many of us, it was not. Ok yes, we’re guilty of trusting our physicians to do what’s best for us. But shouldn’t THEY be the ones doing the research? Shouldn’t THEY know what this drug does to people and monitor them carefully, rather than just handing over a prescription and a smile, while waving goodbye like some uncaring drug dealer off the street….?
Posted by jotho on July 19, 2001, at 10:23:34
In reply to To Purple » purple, posted by ksc on July 19, 2001, at 9:20:46
>
Absolutely, KSC, and i applaud your response to a posting that not only sounds somewhat elitist but is flawed in several ways. In addition to KSC's post, i would like to remind purple, just off the top of my head, of a drug years ago called thalidomide...hey great, also called a wonder drug, it did relieve the nausea from pregnancy, but using your logic, purple, the fact that not EVERY baby born to these poor women was missing one or more limbs, or had other horrific physical aberrations was a reason to applaud the drug? I don't think so. You seem to be of the mind that the people out there who are a.) in a bad way (often desperate) to begin with, b.) visit a doctor whom they trust is well versed and current in his/her field, c.) accept his diagnosis and prescription, and commence taking a drug that is presumed to be safe because our "heralded" FDA says so, and has supposedly gone through rigorous and thorough testing by drug companies d.)and ultimately suffer because of it, should just shut-up because if they were as smart as you, they wouldn't be having a problem. It sounds like you're being a little "hail big business-screw the little guy"-ish. Also, simply saying "There are risks and side-effects in almost every medication," is just as invalid as your other premise. You could apply that same logic this way: Even military tanks sometimes get damaged, or have accidents, therefore: it's ok for a company to build cars out of aluminum foil. A drug that is succesful for some and a horror for many others does not make it a miracle drug, and should not preclude it from being, at the very least, examined more thoroughly by the medical profession. I am happy though, that the drug did work for you and hope your little success story does not blind you to the plight of many others not quite as fortunate.
......john
Posted by AKC on July 19, 2001, at 10:56:05
In reply to Re: To Purple, posted by jotho on July 19, 2001, at 10:23:34
I have to add to this also.
I am now on topamax. My doctor is a saint, in my book. All the official lit told her to put my on it at 50 mg, and titrate me up at 50mg a week. But all my research -- all the anectdotal stuff I read on the net (and I read everything I could find), told me to do no more than 25mg a week. I am lucky enough to have a doctor who trusts me, and that's the route we took. But what if I had not had the energy, the resources, the brain power to do that. My doctor did her research. I have had some side effects - how bad would they have been? Probably so bad, I would have had to quit taking the med (some cognitive dulling - with the latest increase somewhat disturbing and it lasted three days, but it did go away) - and so far, this med has turned out to be a miracle med for me.
So many of these meds are put on the market with so little testing -- we demand it so often - we are desparate - and the companies are desparate for profits (because shareholders like myself are desparate for higher stock prices and dividends). I don't think that when new information begins to trickle in, that information is getting passed on very efficiently. Is a lawsuit the answer? Definitely in somecases (think phen-fen - I think the drug companies waited much too long before pulling the plug on that one). In other cases, we are much too litigous (for those on this board, you may not know, I am an attorney, but not a litigator, so take this comments with a grain of salt. :) !)
anyway, my thoughts.
Your resident hounddog.
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