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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Willow on June 19, 2001, at 16:51:52
In reply to True., posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 15:47:33
> It just feels like they're saying it's all in my head, and discounting any physical cause (like Paxil, which DOES cause TD sometimes) because I've had depression before.
-My father has severe TD caused by older antipsychotic medications. If I'm correct you described yours being in your arms and legs, there's another name for this.
As my psych says, we don't understand everything about the human body & mind, and how they work.
What I think they are trying to say is that it is similar to "butterflies" in your stomach. Instead of feeling the anxiety or stressor, you are getting the movements.
> Wanna know the great gigantic huge stressor in my life that the psych says caused this? I started taking night classes to get a teaching credential.
>
-The one time I saw a psychiatrist he claimed the "problem is that she has three children." I never went back to him. For myself any form of stress good, bad, physical, or psychological will make my symptoms worse. There was no major stressor that started it.>
> is an aborted attempt to get off Paxil, which started me into this whole mess to begin with.
>
> As for the liquid Paxil with 1mg taper...that's what I wanted. But the psych, who has known me for an entire 45 minutes (I went to him specifically to get off Paxil) refused to perscribe that because he feels it will play into my "deep seated desire to stave off independence."I think psychiatrists aren't very good with the human psyche. The next time you get a prescription ask the pharmacist for the liquid form.
>
*Is it more common to get psychosomatic chorea than it is to get drug induced chorea?
>
-Psychosomatic symptoms are the most common reasons for doctor visits, everyone gets them.
> I am trying to find info on psychosomatic stuff just so I know what that's all about, even if I think it's extrememly unlikely. Thanks for the leads.- Beware when you read up on them, that they'll mostly be in a negative tense. Doctors like to quanitative measurements and this doesn't fit. And mostly I would have to say that MDs make this condition worse.
Just my opinions.
Best of luck!Willow
Posted by Willow on June 19, 2001, at 16:56:07
In reply to Re: True. » Princess Artemis, posted by Sulpicia on June 19, 2001, at 16:21:31
> > As for the liquid Paxil with 1mg taper...that's what I wanted. But the psych, who has known me for an entire 45
> minutes (I went to him specifically to get off Paxil) refused to perscribe that because he feels it will play into my
> "deep seated desire to stave off independence."
>
> That's what he thinks caused my debilitating movement disorder. A fear of independence. And he knows this after
> speaking with me for 45 minutes about my physical problems.
>
> Change doctors NOW, even if you go into debt to do so.
> Something is very wrong here.
> Head for the nearest university affiliated hospital and call their
> dept of psychiatry. DON'T bash the former pdoc [initially]: simply, and calmly, say that you need a second opinion consultation
> on an urgent medication problem and ask for whoever has SSRI/depression/psychopharmacology experience and an appointment available
> soonest.
> You need not suffer like this nor waste energy being pissed [rightly so] rather than feeling better.
> S.
Posted by stjames on June 19, 2001, at 17:12:07
In reply to Re: True. » Princess Artemis, posted by Sulpicia on June 19, 2001, at 16:21:31
DON'T bash the former pdoc [initially]: simply, and calmly, say that you need a second opinion consultation
> on an urgent medication problem and ask for whoever has SSRI/depression/psychopharmacology experience and an appointment available
> soonest.James here...
I second this. Reguardless, even if this is psycosomatic, calling it "in your head" is wrong. It is happening for a reason, and this needs to be treated. Another opinion will make the cause more clear.
James
Posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 18:48:02
In reply to Re: True., posted by stjames on June 19, 2001, at 17:12:07
None of them said "It's in your head" per se, but that's what it means...and both docs refused to exhaust all possible physical problems before calling it a psychiatric matter.
I dunno. Maybe they just don't like the fact that Paxil can cause my problems and thus refuse to accept it as a possibility.
Another psychiatrist's opinion would likely be the same, as it would take a strong doctor to admit that their favorite medicine could do this to someone. Regardless, I would take a dim view of anyone who would try to tell me the psychiatric reasons (if there are) of my movement disorder within one visit.
::sigh::
Posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 20:10:35
In reply to Re: True., posted by Willow on June 19, 2001, at 16:51:52
> -My father has severe TD caused by older antipsychotic medications. If I'm correct you described yours being in your arms and legs, there's another name for this.
What's it called? The neurologist called it chorea athetosis...which is in every stinkin' part of my body. Most commonly my left hand, but the left side of my face is also common. The worse it gets the farther down my body it goes, down to my toes, and it includes my trunk. Sometimes it's accompanied by a VERY uncofortable feeling in my back that almost forces me to move. Not nice, I don't like it. Some times I breathe in gasps when I get the tense kind of movements. I make random noises on occasion too.
And I'm sending out a gigantic *THWAP* to the psych who thought her problems were her kids. Bad psych, no cookie for you.
Posted by Willow on June 19, 2001, at 20:55:26
In reply to Me and my dance. » Willow, posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 20:10:35
Your symptoms sound more like mine then my father's. What tests had they done? The sleep clinic I went to called it "periodic limb movements" and "restless leg syndrome." These drugs can cause rls so I can't see why the withdrawal couldn't cause it. Anxiety does make it worse. What does your family doctor say?
Here is a link to the "WeMove" web site http://www.wemove.org/rls_rlswc11_19_98.html
If the problem is psychological it may be easier to treat if it just started suddenly and you never had symptoms before.
Keep in touch,
Willow
Posted by Sulpicia on June 19, 2001, at 21:10:31
In reply to Me and my dance. » Willow, posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 20:10:35
> And I'm sending out a gigantic *THWAP* to the psych who thought her problems were her kids. Bad psych, no
cookie for you.
I *love* it. Entirely appropriate for some clinicians -- never considered a rolled up newspaper.
I really wish I had the training to explain somatoform disorders better but I don't. Can you ask on psycho-social?
My only experience with this sort of thing: in grad school we take comprehensive exams -- we study 18 hours a day for
a year and sit 12 hours of horrible exams. The examiners as a rule have memories like elephants and big mouths -- it's a
horror. Several of us needed new eyeglass prescriptions but one colleague developed a somatoform disorder -- she went blind.
This was not volitional in any regard.
What the pdoc said to you about paxil and independence issues is akin to reading tea leaves unless you were huddled in the corner
screaming at your parents at the same time -- the whole thing is nuts.
Just find a clinician to treat you -- you need assistance to stop the paxil and recover from the movement disorder -- regardless of
its origin.
Keep the rolled up newspaper handy tho.
S. :) :)
Posted by Jane D on June 19, 2001, at 22:30:28
In reply to True., posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 15:47:33
> Wanna know the great gigantic huge stressor in my life that the psych says caused this? I started taking night classes to get a teaching credential.
>
> Yep. That's it.
>
> I've done college before so I know what it's like. I'm feeling no overwhelming emotional trouble. The most traumatic thing that'sStressors don't have to be caused by emotional conflict. Going to night school can be demanding physically. At the very least, your schedule has changed. You're probably losing sleep some of the time to finish schoolwork. I've finally learned that I can't afford to do that very often even when I like what I am doing.
One thing confused me about your account. Why was your doctor speaking to your family instead of you? This would upset me greatly.
Finally I agree with all the other advice that you should get a second opinion. Good luck.
Jane
Posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 23:54:46
In reply to Re: Me and my dance. » Princess Artemis, posted by Sulpicia on June 19, 2001, at 21:10:31
I've always got the paper handy! I've been dealing with psychs of varying degrees of competence for 10 years. I don't hesitate to swat when swatting's needed ;)
Maybe I'll ask on the Psycho-Social once I'm done being mad at the psych for saying all this junk and assuming so much.
I don't personally think he's right about the diagnosis, but I'll look into it to see what it is. Can't hurt to be informed.
Posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 0:01:32
In reply to Re: Me and my dance., posted by Willow on June 19, 2001, at 20:55:26
All told, between the GP and the neurologist, I have had a CAT, MRI, brain SPECT, spinal tap, blood tests of all stripes, and then more blood tests.
They all came out normal...or so the neuro says...I have also been having headaches almost daily on the right side of my head, and he said that was probably because the brain SPECT showed a little over activity on that side. This was after he said the scan was normal, so it's possible there were other things in the other tests that fit within the normal range.
When the neuro was doing the spinal, he had a larval doctor in to watch, and I over heard him explain to the baby doc that my movements and stuttering were chorea athetosis.
I did talk to a psychiatrist over the phone who's had a lot of experience in drug-induced disease and he said it sounded like tardive dyskinesia. The was off the record of course.
So...I'm pretty much trying to sort it all out.
Posted by stjames on June 20, 2001, at 2:06:50
In reply to Tests, tests, and more tests. » Willow, posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 0:01:32
Benadryl is usually first line treatment for TD, as it is OTC. You might consider trying it to see if it helps.
James
Posted by SalArmy4me on June 20, 2001, at 8:27:46
In reply to Re: Benadryl, posted by stjames on June 20, 2001, at 2:06:50
Agreed, Benadryl 50 mg is a good treatment for RLS.
> Benadryl is usually first line treatment for TD, as it is OTC. You might consider trying it to see if it helps.
>
> James
Posted by Willow on June 20, 2001, at 13:45:55
In reply to Re: Benadryl » stjames, posted by SalArmy4me on June 20, 2001, at 8:27:46
http://www.mlists.net/judson/3-meds.html
Here is a link to a site about medications which can cause RLS. I have a fairly constant runny nose, so I've used the non-drowsy and other antihistamines in the past. Then by accident I came across something that mentioned that they can cause symptoms that I have, and since not taking them I have been somewhat better. It is hard to say though what has caused improvement because I've been doing a number of things regarding the symptoms.
Princess
Are you working too on top of the school?Willow
Posted by Cam W. on June 20, 2001, at 13:54:22
In reply to Re: Benadryl, posted by stjames on June 20, 2001, at 2:06:50
Sometimes Benadryl is not recommended for long term use as it can wipe REM sleep and this can cause disrupted sleep patterns (eg. morning sedation), if used too much. - Cam
Posted by Maraschino on June 20, 2001, at 14:08:53
In reply to Tests, tests, and more tests. » Willow, posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 0:01:32
> All told, between the GP and the neurologist, I have had a CAT, MRI, brain SPECT, spinal tap, blood tests of all stripes, and then more blood tests.
>
> They all came out normal...or so the neuro says...I have also been having headaches almost daily on the right side of my head, and he said that was probably because the brain SPECT showed a little over activity on that side. This was after he said the scan was normal, so it's possible there were other things in the other tests that fit within the normal range.
>
> When the neuro was doing the spinal, he had a larval doctor in to watch, and I over heard him explain to the baby doc that my movements and stuttering were chorea athetosis.
>
> I did talk to a psychiatrist over the phone who's had a lot of experience in drug-induced disease and he said it sounded like tardive dyskinesia. The was off the record of course.
>
> So...I'm pretty much trying to sort it all out.
None of the tests you listed will rule out a drug-induced movement disorder. In fact, if you're experiencing involuntary movements, a normal MRI would support the diagnosis of a movement disorder. There are many neurologists who specialize in treating movement disorders (mostly in cities), and I'd seek a consultation with one of them if I were you.Whatever it is, I think it'll be reversible with proper treatment.
Good luck.. I think you'll be fine.
Maraschino
Posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 14:39:34
In reply to Re: Tests, tests, and more tests., posted by Maraschino on June 20, 2001, at 14:08:53
I know none of those tests would rule out drug-induced movement disorders.
The docs dismissed it out of hand.
Not sure why. The neuro told my mom something about I was moving different each visit...while not taking into account the first time was sans madicine, the second time he did a spinal tap and my moves reacted badly to it, and the third time I was on medication, Cogentin and Risperdal (!).
As for the psych, I have no clue why he said it was psychosomatic.
Hopefully in a few months I'll get SSI and stuff and then will have insurance that I can take to docs outside Kaiser. I'll definately be getting more opinions!
Posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 14:46:34
In reply to Benadryl not for everyone ..., posted by Willow on June 20, 2001, at 13:45:55
I can't work right now. I'm a substitute teacher, so obviously I can't go into a classroom like this.
I can't drive either. No one would want to be on the road with me like this ;)
The classes were 9 weeks, and I finished them out *just* as I was begining with the really bad movements, although I was having pretty severe withdrawals during class. I dropped the classes for the next term, as I had no way to get there.
So I'm not really doing anything. I can't think of a job I could do like this unless it were writing of some sort.
I have sold some stuff on eBay to get a little income.
I'm pretty positive this all will go away once I'm off the Paxil. Then I can go back to work and school.
I hate not being able to do that...
Posted by Maraschino on June 20, 2001, at 15:25:39
In reply to Tell that to my docs!, posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 14:39:34
> I know none of those tests would rule out drug-induced movement disorders.
>
> The docs dismissed it out of hand.
>
> Not sure why. The neuro told my mom something about I was moving different each visit...while not taking into account the first time was sans madicine, the second time he did a spinal tap and my moves reacted badly to it, and the third time I was on medication, Cogentin and Risperdal (!).
>
> As for the psych, I have no clue why he said it was psychosomatic.
>
> Hopefully in a few months I'll get SSI and stuff and then will have insurance that I can take to docs outside Kaiser. I'll definately be getting more opinions!Risperdal is becoming the treatment of choice for Tourette's (replacing Haldol). How long have you been taking it? How long were you using Paxil? Has anyone suggested switching to Prozac, then slowly tapering off that?
If you're in a HMO, I'm assuming that that both the neurologist and psychiatrist belong to it. The HMO, psychiatrist, and neurologist understand the medico-legal implications of all this, so I'd try to get a med/mal attorney to protect your interests. One would consult with you for free. I'm sorry if I'm getting off point or am misunderstanding, but what's happened to you can result in major legal consequences for your doctors, and they'll sometimes put their interests ahead of yours (unfortunately).
Maraschino
Posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 16:31:16
In reply to Re: Tell that to my docs!, posted by Maraschino on June 20, 2001, at 15:25:39
I was only using the Risperdal/Cogentin for a few weeks. Made me very slooow and sleeepy. And the Cogentin seemed to make the moves worse; they were far more often accompanied by that feeling in my back that said MOVE OR ELSE!!! I found it highly ironic that occasionally I had to take the Risperdal to ease the movements caused by the Cogentin!
Right now the neuro has me on Artane, which seems to be diminishing the moves, but not getting rid of them. It's helping tho'. The psych gave me some Klonopin to help too.
I've been using Paxil for ~3 years. One psych I went to started me on an 8 week taper with the suggestion that toward the end, since 10 or 5mg is about the threshold for holding off withdrawal that she would start me on some Prozac in sort of a cross taper. I never got to that point in the taper, and I dumped her after she suggested more Paxil might help with the side effects!
I have contacted a lawer, actually two, that both said they would be willing to take my case to GSK (one of them basically makes his practice with medical issues). What sort of legalities would be involved in keeping my interests safe in the case of the doctors? Is it possible that the psychosomatic diagnosis was essentially covering their butts from having to deal with a possible lawsuit? Or perhaps to keep from angering the great and mighty GSK?
I can tell absolutely that they don't want to step on each other's toes. No doctor in the whole of Kaiser will give me Paxil except the psychs...which lands me square in the land of uncertainty and yes, prejudice.
This is getting me confuzzleder and confuzzleder ever second ;)
Posted by Willow on June 20, 2001, at 17:06:20
In reply to I'm not doin' nuthin :( » Willow, posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 14:46:34
Check out the link in my post above about benadryl. It has some information about Paxil. Unfortunately I don't understand all the medical lingo. It's worth checking out!
Willow
Posted by Maraschino on June 21, 2001, at 0:03:02
In reply to Re: Tell that to my docs!, posted by Princess Artemis on June 20, 2001, at 16:31:16
> I was only using the Risperdal/Cogentin for a few weeks. Made me very slooow and sleeepy. And the Cogentin seemed to make the moves worse; they were far more often accompanied by that feeling in my back that said MOVE OR ELSE!!! I found it highly ironic that occasionally I had to take the Risperdal to ease the movements caused by the Cogentin!
>
> Right now the neuro has me on Artane, which seems to be diminishing the moves, but not getting rid of them. It's helping tho'. The psych gave me some Klonopin to help too.
>
> I've been using Paxil for ~3 years. One psych I went to started me on an 8 week taper with the suggestion that toward the end, since 10 or 5mg is about the threshold for holding off withdrawal that she would start me on some Prozac in sort of a cross taper. I never got to that point in the taper, and I dumped her after she suggested more Paxil might help with the side effects!
>
> I have contacted a lawer, actually two, that both said they would be willing to take my case to GSK (one of them basically makes his practice with medical issues). What sort of legalities would be involved in keeping my interests safe in the case of the doctors? Is it possible that the psychosomatic diagnosis was essentially covering their butts from having to deal with a possible lawsuit? Or perhaps to keep from angering the great and mighty GSK?
>
> I can tell absolutely that they don't want to step on each other's toes. No doctor in the whole of Kaiser will give me Paxil except the psychs...which lands me square in the land of uncertainty and yes, prejudice.
>
> This is getting me confuzzleder and confuzzleder ever second ;)
Certainly, none of this is psychosomatic. I'm not sure what's going on, but I can empathize with the anxiety, fear and confusion you must feel. Something similar to this happened to me in the mid-90's (too complex to go into here), and it involved drug discontinuation, multiple neurological evaluations, various diagnoses, consultations with other specialists, etc. Eventually, I landed in the hospital. I'm still not certain what happened (other than it was a result of psych. drug discontinuation), but I think you need a professional to guide and support you in this. So much can happen, and you can't expect to handle this by yourself.If you want to talk further about it, then maybe it's more appropriate to e-mail me at maraschino99@hotmail.com.
Take care,
Maraschino
Posted by SalArmy4me on June 21, 2001, at 1:06:00
In reply to Psychosomatic Tardive Dyskinesia?, posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 0:11:58
Posted by University on June 21, 2001, at 1:26:35
In reply to Psychosomatic Tardive Dyskinesia?, posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 0:11:58
In any event, you're obviously a smart person (something that unfortunately seems to lend itself to a complex imagination--including psychosomaticism). But it sounds to me like you'd do well to consider going on another SSRI--like Prozac? That way, you might discover whether it's organic (OCD-type affect) or Paxil-related.
> That's what the neurologist and psychiatrist both said, although never to me, only to family.
>
> Is this even possible? My movement trouble is pretty severe, and as I understand it, the psych assumed a great deal when he talked to my mother about it.
>
> He assumed I knew what the withdrawal effects of Paxil were because I looked them up and not because I had them...maybe he meant I looked them up and then manifested them rather than had the symptoms and then did the research. This seems to me to be a rather wild conjecture...I mean, surely I'm not the only one who has begun having severe symptoms that decided to figure out what they were...(I'm rather irritated by this assumption he made without even asking me about it.)
>
> He also assumed I had researched movement disorders before I started manifesting symptoms rather than the other way around. He told my mom my 'movement disorder' was too far off the severe end of the spectrum to be real. In otherwords, I couldn't have TD because my TD was too severe to be TD and thus I must be 'making it up.'
>
> According to the neurologist what my disorder is called is chorea athetosis, which he believes the stuttering to be also. (He did a zillion tests and said they all came back in the normal range, so he thinks it's psychosomatic too >:P .)
>
> So...does anyone know or even heard of someone developing chorea athetosis in all limbs and trunk and face as a psychosomatic syndrome?
>
> Personaly, as I know how this has developed in me, I am positive it is Paxil induced movement disorder. The start of this whole adventure was the precise moment I attempted to taper off Paxil. Plus, the psych's reasons for thinking it's psychosomatic hold water the same way a sieve does; I'm having no bizarre stress in life...going back to college to get a master's and credential in special ed. doesn't seem like a gigantic psychological chrisis to me.
>
> Any opinions? Anyone ever heard of someone mentally conjuring up such a severe movement disorder? Is there anything in the literature?
>
> Princess Artemis, who is not making this up.
Posted by Willow on June 21, 2001, at 9:12:16
In reply to Tardive Dyskinesia Link » Princess Artemis, posted by SalArmy4me on June 21, 2001, at 1:06:00
> http://www.vh.org/Providers/Conferences/CPS/08.html
This is a good start for information on TD. Describes it well. I put in favourites for future refrence.
Thanks!
Willow
Posted by lazylizard on November 19, 2013, at 21:33:46
In reply to Psychosomatic Tardive Dyskinesia?, posted by Princess Artemis on June 19, 2001, at 0:11:58
Its bee quite a few years since this happened did you ever find out what was wrong or did it resolve by itself??
This is the end of the thread.
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