![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by tina on June 13, 2001, at 23:07:51
In reply to Re: SORRY! I'm just pissed at the drug manufacturers.., posted by SalArmy4me on June 13, 2001, at 22:43:20
> Dude, you can't believe everything you read.
>
> > Just look at how they market their drugs.
> >
> > Please read a book called, "Prozac Backlash" by Joseph Glenmullen M.D. This book covers all the anti-depressant drugs and gives you alternatives.
> >
> > See www.glenmullen.com
Posted by gilbert on June 14, 2001, at 0:07:25
In reply to I'll Get It Dr Bob... Please Be Civil y'all, posted by tina on June 13, 2001, at 23:07:51
O.K. so the message delivery is a little bit harsh and it makes us all a tad bit defensive to the point where we start to diagram Cheetah"s sentences if maybe we can break down the messenger and the message will therefore be less credible. This is a wonderfull tactic for debate but it really does skirt the main issue brought up here as I tried to state in the post above on the paxil lawsuit in England. None of us including me wants to think even for a second that the bad press about any of our drugs is true. It shakes our secure little medicated worlds. News Flash.......All of our drugs do damage to our bodies they are foreign substances that our livers have to work overtime to clear out. News Flash........some people have had really bad expereinces on the drugs we use and lives have been lost on FDA approved drugs. News Flash........Just because someone has a different viewpoint does not necessarily make them a blubbering idiot even if they don't use spell check. There have been bad reactions to all of the ssris and maybe people even kill on them and maybe people have withdrawal symptoms and maybe people become violent on them and maybe the same thing happens to people who take my drug xanax. I just know that those things aren't happening to me. It doesn't mean they don't happent to others. Most people using meds on this board especially ssri users are so defensive.....the first little piece of adverse data that hits this board and everyone dismisses it as quackery or hogwash. If we take a closer look at the message and not the messanger we will see what makes us defensive is that their is some truth in it....otherwise the reactions would be much more tempered. Let's risk it....let's look at the bad sides to our meds....maybe then we can push for better drugs.......safer drugs........and we all win. Cheetah may be abrasive but for me there is some truth to the message that makes me wiggle a little in my seat.....I hope I am not alone
Gil
Posted by Anna Laura on June 14, 2001, at 2:43:25
In reply to Re: What if it's true., posted by gilbert on June 14, 2001, at 0:07:25
> O.K. so the message delivery is a little bit harsh and it makes us all a tad bit defensive to the point where we start to diagram Cheetah"s sentences if maybe we can break down the messenger and the message will therefore be less credible. This is a wonderfull tactic for debate but it really does skirt the main issue brought up here as I tried to state in the post above on the paxil lawsuit in England. None of us including me wants to think even for a second that the bad press about any of our drugs is true. It shakes our secure little medicated worlds. News Flash.......All of our drugs do damage to our bodies they are foreign substances that our livers have to work overtime to clear out. News Flash........some people have had really bad expereinces on the drugs we use and lives have been lost on FDA approved drugs. News Flash........Just because someone has a different viewpoint does not necessarily make them a blubbering idiot even if they don't use spell check. There have been bad reactions to all of the ssris and maybe people even kill on them and maybe people have withdrawal symptoms and maybe people become violent on them and maybe the same thing happens to people who take my drug xanax. I just know that those things aren't happening to me. It doesn't mean they don't happent to others. Most people using meds on this board especially ssri users are so defensive.....the first little piece of adverse data that hits this board and everyone dismisses it as quackery or hogwash. If we take a closer look at the message and not the messanger we will see what makes us defensive is that their is some truth in it....otherwise the reactions would be much more tempered. Let's risk it....let's look at the bad sides to our meds....maybe then we can push for better drugs.......safer drugs........and we all win. Cheetah may be abrasive but for me there is some truth to the message that makes me wiggle a little in my seat.....I hope I am not alone
>
> GilGil,
I agree with you on the fact that we ought to accept different view-points : it doesn't cost much and even if we might not accept the other person's view point, the confrontation it's likely to broaden our minds and visual on things, so it's ok.
But what's the point of being so aggressive?
One can shows his/her point of view without deliberately offending everyone on this board.
One thing that really drives me angry is people discharging their suppressed/repressed anger
on the first occasion showing up.
These people usually justify their anger to themselves and to others in many ways, often rationalizing but substantially lying to others and themselves; too often the bare truth is that they badly need to unload their rage, often hitting the first thing/person that comes on their way.
I'm not going to accept this attitude, whatever subject the discussion is about.Anna Laura
Posted by dana on June 14, 2001, at 5:30:59
In reply to YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 13, 2001, at 18:30:32
may you should try an ANGER MANAGEMENT COURSE....your venom smacks of jealousy and a lack of sensitivity towards some people that have the courage to seek help....some people may have stopped themselves from committing henous crimes for example because they sort treatment of their inbalance of chemicals in their brain. METHINKS YOU NEED EDUCATING.......have you tried reading books on this subject....?? We are talking about CHEMICAL IMBALANCES.... hello...get it ??.....no more or less urgent than if they were DIABETIC and were INSULIN DEPENDENT....I suppose they too are JUNKIES!!!
Posted by Roo on June 14, 2001, at 7:25:55
In reply to Re: What if it's true., posted by Anna Laura on June 14, 2001, at 2:43:25
Gil--
Good point. I agree. And I take prozac. Yet i'm
still scared and unsure of how it's effecting me
long term, and it scares me that I can't get off of
it without suffering a whole lot. It makes me wiggle,
for sure.And about being agressive...I've seen people make
the same point that Cheetah did in a more calm, rational
way...but their posts got ignored. It seems like the
only posts that get responses on this particular topic
are the ones who are obnoxious about it...It's like no one wants to think about it.
Posted by cheetah on June 14, 2001, at 8:22:10
In reply to Re: YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by dana on June 14, 2001, at 5:30:59
I would like you to quote ONE (1) verified study that has not later been retracted about chemical imbalances. Not one m.d. or anyone else have EVER conclusively proved that anxiety/depression is caused by a chemical imbalance.
> may you should try an ANGER MANAGEMENT COURSE....your venom smacks of jealousy and a lack of sensitivity towards some people that have the courage to seek help....some people may have stopped themselves from committing henous crimes for example because they sort treatment of their inbalance of chemicals in their brain. METHINKS YOU NEED EDUCATING.......have you tried reading books on this subject....?? We are talking about CHEMICAL IMBALANCES.... hello...get it ??.....no more or less urgent than if they were DIABETIC and were INSULIN DEPENDENT....I suppose they too are JUNKIES!!!
Posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 8:47:53
In reply to I'll Get It Dr Bob... Please Be Civil y'all, posted by tina on June 13, 2001, at 23:07:51
First - LOL Tina!
Second - Any medication can potentially cause damage to the body. One must always weigh the risks versus the benefits of taking medication. With high blood pressure, one must weigh the potential of having a heart attack versus possibly contracting other heart rythmn disturbances; with atherosclerosis prevention, aspirin may keep the artery walls clean with the risk of hemorragic stroke; with insulin it is a choice of staying alive without going into ketoacidosis versus the risk of going into insulin shock, both of which can be deadly.
There are inherent risks in any medication, but their benefits usually far outweigh these risks. The stigma against mental illness is an added adverse factor affecting treatment. We cannot "snap out of it"; we cannot "wish depression/bipolar disorder/schizophrenia away"; we cannot "eat right", "exercise regularily" (although these last two do help with the symptoms) or "take vitamins" (which are drugs,in themselves).
The research of the scientific community does bear out these facts. The key to finding the facts is selective reading and asking the person who is relating the advice where they got their information. Scientific advice from Aunt Midge is much less reliable than that coming from Harvard Medical School (unless Aunt Midge is a world reknown psychopharmacologist). That said, even scientific-based information needs to be scrutinized; methods and results need to be checked, tested, and retested.
Yes, SSRIs with short half-lives can cause withdrawl symptoms (as can benzodiazepines), but with proper medical follow-up these can be managed rather easily, with minimal discomfort.
My 2¢ - Cam
Posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 9:22:12
In reply to Re: YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 14, 2001, at 8:22:10
Cheetah - What about the low levels of 5-HIAA in the CSF of some depressed people? Coinsidentally, these people usually respond well to SSRIs. - Cam
> I would like you to quote ONE (1) verified study that has not later been retracted about chemical imbalances. Not one m.d. or anyone else have EVER conclusively proved that anxiety/depression is caused by a chemical imbalance.
Posted by sandhi on June 14, 2001, at 10:01:10
In reply to Re: YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 13, 2001, at 21:37:50
> As a matter of fact, YES. I feel like curling up in bed and hiding from the world. My method of manifestation of anxiety is to not just bite my nails but bite the skin around my nails, tearing my fingers to shreds to the point that the tips of my fingers are covered in scar tissue.
>
> What keeps me going is the anger of the possibility of defeat even though I drink heavily and live in a world of hopelessness, never having completed much in my life.
>
> I can't beleive you guys are concocting SSRI cocktails of various drugs and poisoning your bodies and brains with all these really bad side effects AND the 100% chance of residual [bad] effects once you stop taking the drug. This, not to mention the REALLY bad withdrawal symptoms you get as soon as you stop. They are so bad that you have to "taper off"??? Does that sound like a safe drug to you? Do you trust the FDA enough to make that judgement for you? That's a government agency, remember, and they are morons.
>
>
>
> >
> > HELLO CHEETAH!
> >
> > do you know what it's like to be severely depressed, to go to bed night after night, unable to sleep, then up in the morning feeling twice as bad......... and still trying to cope normally with whatever the day may bring.........OR ARE YOU one of those lucky people who don't have a problem in the world? if that's the case, why are you wasting your time on psycho-babble, reading letters from "JUNKIES LIKE US"!
> >
Let's all chill, do what we have to do to want to be here our short stay on this planet and not call each other names!! I love ya!!Sandhi
Posted by Ron Hill on June 14, 2001, at 10:44:12
In reply to Re: I'll Get It Dr Bob...facts for cheetah, posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 8:47:53
Cam,
Very well said! Thanks for taking the time to post your $0.02 worth in such an articulate and civil manner. By the way, is your two cents worth Canadian or US? I imagine Canadian, ay?
--Ron
-----------------------------------> First - LOL Tina!
>
> Second - Any medication can potentially cause damage to the body. One must always weigh the risks versus the benefits of taking medication. With high blood pressure, one must weigh the potential of having a heart attack versus possibly contracting other heart rythmn disturbances; with atherosclerosis prevention, aspirin may keep the artery walls clean with the risk of hemorragic stroke; with insulin it is a choice of staying alive without going into ketoacidosis versus the risk of going into insulin shock, both of which can be deadly.
>
> There are inherent risks in any medication, but their benefits usually far outweigh these risks. The stigma against mental illness is an added adverse factor affecting treatment. We cannot "snap out of it"; we cannot "wish depression/bipolar disorder/schizophrenia away"; we cannot "eat right", "exercise regularily" (although these last two do help with the symptoms) or "take vitamins" (which are drugs,in themselves).
>
> The research of the scientific community does bear out these facts. The key to finding the facts is selective reading and asking the person who is relating the advice where they got their information. Scientific advice from Aunt Midge is much less reliable than that coming from Harvard Medical School (unless Aunt Midge is a world reknown psychopharmacologist). That said, even scientific-based information needs to be scrutinized; methods and results need to be checked, tested, and retested.
>
> Yes, SSRIs with short half-lives can cause withdrawl symptoms (as can benzodiazepines), but with proper medical follow-up these can be managed rather easily, with minimal discomfort.
>
> My 2¢ - Cam
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 14, 2001, at 11:58:05
In reply to YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 13, 2001, at 18:30:32
> You guys are a bunch of opportunistic junkies.
You may not agree with the approaches others take, but calling them names is neither supportive nor likely to get them to do anything different. Plese see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
--------
> You can't even spell certain words!
We're all better at some things than others. Please be supportive.
--------
> And you are an ignorant fool sadly lacking in social skills and have the personality of a worm.
You may have good reasons for disagreeing with someone, but see the above regarding name-calling.
> Take your hatred elsewhere.
Not a bad idea for everyone involved!
--------
> Don't 'cats' lick their butts on a regular basis? Must be where all that verbal diarrhea is coming from!?!
See the above.
--------
> your venom smacks of jealousy...
See the above.
> METHINKS YOU NEED EDUCATING.......
Maybe so. Educational posts are as welcome as supportive ones...
Bob
Posted by tina on June 14, 2001, at 12:06:59
In reply to Re: I'll Get It Dr Bob...facts for cheetah, posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 8:47:53
> First - LOL Tina!
> thank you thank you hehehe
One caveat though......NEVER trust Stats Canada
heehee> Second - Any medication can potentially cause damage to the body. One must always weigh the risks versus the benefits of taking medication. With high blood pressure, one must weigh the potential of having a heart attack versus possibly contracting other heart rythmn disturbances; with atherosclerosis prevention, aspirin may keep the artery walls clean with the risk of hemorragic stroke; with insulin it is a choice of staying alive without going into ketoacidosis versus the risk of going into insulin shock, both of which can be deadly.
>
> There are inherent risks in any medication, but their benefits usually far outweigh these risks. The stigma against mental illness is an added adverse factor affecting treatment. We cannot "snap out of it"; we cannot "wish depression/bipolar disorder/schizophrenia away"; we cannot "eat right", "exercise regularily" (although these last two do help with the symptoms) or "take vitamins" (which are drugs,in themselves).
>
> The research of the scientific community does bear out these facts. The key to finding the facts is selective reading and asking the person who is relating the advice where they got their information. Scientific advice from Aunt Midge is much less reliable than that coming from Harvard Medical School (unless Aunt Midge is a world reknown psychopharmacologist). That said, even scientific-based information needs to be scrutinized; methods and results need to be checked, tested, and retested.
>
> Yes, SSRIs with short half-lives can cause withdrawl symptoms (as can benzodiazepines), but with proper medical follow-up these can be managed rather easily, with minimal discomfort.
>
> My 2¢ - Cam
Posted by geekUK on June 14, 2001, at 13:53:03
In reply to YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 13, 2001, at 18:30:32
hehehehehehehehhehehehhehehehheheheheh
oh thats a good one!!
I am still trying to stich my sides together, why was cheetah looking on the meds, if he is so against it? I will say one thing though, if the choises were suicide or try to manage life with depression, I would throw everthing and the kitchen sink at managing. life can be so beautiful at times, like finding this message board,(All my thoughts that know one I know understands- lain plain). and ugly unfortunatly (like that post, I really dont care that your mad at the drug companies- email them!)
ce la vi
MC
> You guys are a bunch of opportunistic junkies.
You all want drugs and their effects and then you want to sue when the long-term effects screw you up. $$$$ is all you want. GET OFF THESE HEAVY-DUTY DRUGS! Oh, I forgot - YOU CAN'T because you are now dependant. You'll go through severe withdrawals if you cease taking these SSRIs (Seratonin Boosters) including Prozack, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, etc... For God's sakes, if you're on the internet, do some research!!!!!
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2001, at 14:18:38
In reply to Re: I'll Get It Dr Bob...facts for cheetah, posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 8:47:53
Nice post, Cam, but somehow I don't think this person is interested in facts. Just a hunch.
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2001, at 14:19:00
In reply to SORRY! I'm just pissed at the drug manufacturers.., posted by cheetah on June 13, 2001, at 21:47:28
> Just look at how they market their drugs.
Advertising is what you get when corporations are in charge of anything. It's happening in other sectors of American life too -- even *prisons* are starting to become "privatised." That's right: there are people out there who have a financial interest in imprisoning more people!
Drug ads are tame when you compare them to ads for children's toys, junk food, etc.
> Please read a book called, "Prozac Backlash" by Joseph Glenmullen M.D. This book covers all the anti-depressant drugs and gives you alternatives.
>
> See www.glenmullen.comSeen it. It's the usual anti-psychiatry rap, from an opportunistic would-be guru with his own vested interest.
Anyway, if the pharmaceutical companies are who you're so ticked at, would you mind taking out your righteous anger on them rather than on us?
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2001, at 14:25:09
In reply to Re: please be civil » everyone, posted by Dr. Bob on June 14, 2001, at 11:58:05
> > You guys are a bunch of opportunistic junkies.
>
> You may not agree with the approaches others take, but calling them names is neither supportive nor likely to get them to do anything different.Hi Dr. Bob. I wanted to add something. I think it's a sad world where "junkie" is used as an insult. I flinch whenever I hear someone use a rude nickname for a mental illness -- like "junkie" or "psycho" -- as an insult.
> We're all better at some things than others. Please be supportive.
Some of us are apparently better at being supportive than others. This isn't a question of being supportive ("cheetah" didn't come here asking for support, s/he came here to start a flame war) -- it's a question of avoiding being actively rude.
As always, just IMO.
-elizabeth
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 14, 2001, at 17:09:24
In reply to Re: YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by geekUK on June 14, 2001, at 13:53:03
> I really dont care that your mad at the drug companies-
You're free not to care, but if you don't, in the interest of keeping this a supportive community, please keep that to yourself.
--------
> somehow I don't think this person is interested in facts. Just a hunch.
The same applies to "hunches" that might make others feel put down. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Oops, I forgot this last time: any follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by krista on June 14, 2001, at 22:16:47
In reply to Re: YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 14, 2001, at 8:22:10
Cheetah,
I have tried everything to help me. I have a good family yet when I was 5 I used to want to kill myself and try to rip my skin off.
I beleive there are imbalances in the brain. (after what I've lived through how could I not) Just like Manic depression and Schizophernia are also imbalances. (my uncle is schizophrenic. (Relation to depression who knows.) If I do not take antidepressants than I
end up in a hospital. Depression is not just feeling sad. If you have it bad enough it can make you go crazy. Rage and irrationality also exist in some depression.
I will take the drugs because they make me feel 20% better. and if they're bad for me than that's the chance I'm willing to take.
I'd rather live a short life that I am somewhat able to enjoy than a long life of torture and isolation. I would definitley end up dead.
whether YOU take drugs to help is up to YOU, but don't put down those people like me who find that is the only thing that allows them to somewhat function. It's no cure and it doens't take it all away, but it's liveable.
And I've tried all the natural approaches. I agree that some people may be to quick to jump on drugs but don't forget that there are some of us who have turned to them as a last desperate resort. And we need them to function at all.
I doubt you would tell a Schizophrenic person to go off there drugs.krista
Posted by krista on June 14, 2001, at 22:52:18
In reply to Re: a message for CHEETAH, posted by krista on June 14, 2001, at 22:16:47
ooops sorry! I hadn't read all the other posts on this subject. I would not have posted my last message, if I had read Dr. Bob's prior message about posting all replies from this point to Psycho-Babble Administration.
sorry
krista
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2001, at 22:58:14
In reply to Re: a message for CHEETAH, posted by krista on June 14, 2001, at 22:16:47
> I doubt you would tell a Schizophrenic person to go off there drugs.
You never know. A lot of people have very strong feelings against antipsychotic drugs and believe they should never be used because of the risk of movement disorders. And there are still people who don't believe that schizophrenia is "real," or who believe that it is the result of internal conflict and should be addressed with psychotherapy.
-elizabeth
Posted by Chris A. on June 15, 2001, at 0:07:53
In reply to Re: please be civil » everyone, posted by Dr. Bob on June 14, 2001, at 11:58:05
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2001, at 0:17:49
In reply to Re: a message for CHEETAH, posted by krista on June 14, 2001, at 22:52:18
> ooops sorry! I hadn't read all the other posts on this subject. I would not have posted my last message, if I had read Dr. Bob's prior message about posting all replies from this point to Psycho-Babble Administration.
I didn't mean *all* replies, I just meant those that were about civility...
Bob
Posted by JohnL on June 16, 2001, at 5:15:13
In reply to YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 13, 2001, at 18:30:32
I'm guilty. I am a drug junkie. See, the problem is I like to feel normal. I like to enjoy life. I do not enjoy dark dungeons. I don't like to feel like killing myself. My drugs help me feel better than ever. I would be dead without them, both figuratively and literally.
> You guys are a bunch of opportunistic junkies. You all want drugs and their effects and then you want to sue when the long-term effects screw you up. $$$$ is all you want. GET OFF THESE HEAVY-DUTY DRUGS! Oh, I forgot - YOU CAN'T because you are now dependant. You'll go through severe withdrawals if you cease taking these SSRIs (Seratonin Boosters) including Prozack, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, etc... For God's sakes, if you're on the internet, do some research!!!!!
Posted by blackjack on June 17, 2001, at 14:26:58
In reply to Re: YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by cheetah on June 14, 2001, at 8:22:10
> I would like you to quote ONE (1) verified study that has not later been retracted about chemical imbalances. Not one m.d. or anyone else have EVER conclusively proved that anxiety/depression is caused by a chemical imbalance.
>Actually, there have been numerous studies in the past several years, using PET and SPECT scans, that have demonstrated consistant abnormal metabolism and receptor function in people with mood disorders. Now, we are not entirely sure by what mechanism these dysfuntions are related to mood changes, and how exactly the drugs ameliorate the dysfunctions, but we are much less in the dark than we were even 5 years ago. We are now much more able to observe what's going on inside functioning human brain.
For the secord, the only "withdrawal" would feel if I stopped taking my medication would be a relapse of my depression. Some of the antidepressants do produce withrawl symdromes in some who take them, but this is not the same thing as addiction.
I don't think anybody here WANTS to be on medications. When somebody comes up with a way of treating depression that is more effective and has less side effects, I'll be the first in line. As it stands right now, my choices are medication, ECT, or not be able to function. And, yes, I tried everything else before I started on meds. I was very anti-med for a very long time. It wasn't until I was in danger of ending up on the street that I realized it was the lesser of two evils.
Posted by blackjack on June 17, 2001, at 14:35:54
In reply to Re: YOU'RE ALL JUNKIES, posted by JohnL on June 16, 2001, at 5:15:13
> I'm guilty. I am a drug junkie. See, the problem is I like to feel normal.
I'm with you, man. I'm totally hooked on, y'know, getting up in the morning and holding down a job and having fun.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.