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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by mikes on April 19, 2001, at 18:36:32
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by vlvtelvis on April 19, 2001, at 2:35:13
I think CBT would work pretty well. I took St. John's Wort and it made my social phobia and anxiety go away. But even when the St. John's Wort stopped working, the social phobia was still gone. I think I learned that I could be more confident socially.
The anxiety still remained, however.
Posted by Miss Amy on April 19, 2001, at 19:33:25
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by mikes on April 19, 2001, at 18:36:32
Yeah, my anxiety never TOTALLY went away after therapy--but it did become more managable. A lot more. I did the CBT about 3 years ago and finally went on meds in December. Not for panic, but for depression. (But panic is side effect of depression blah blah blah : ) I have not had a full scale panic attack in years now, and I feel I owe that to the CBT---BUT like meds, therapy is different for everybody too. You kind of have to go your own route and see what works best for you. I think we can all agree on that! : )
Posted by kate9999 on April 20, 2001, at 3:18:37
In reply to Social Phobia - Jimmy's Algorithm, posted by jimmygold70 on April 19, 2001, at 9:13:30
I don't know if I'd wait so long to try Nardil - particularly if you're talking severe generalized sp, (or especially with atypical depression).
Also if Nardil side effects are too much, maybe switch first to Parnate - my experience was though I had side effects with both, they were very different side effects, so it would be worth the switch - since I think the RIMAs are maybe less effective.
> My algorithm - GAD+SP
>
> 1. SSRI (Celexa is my favorite) for 2 months
> 2. Doesn't work - raise the dose to the MAX
> 3. Didn't work as well, wait for a month
> 4. Partial response - Add buspirone up to 60mg/day
> 5. Insufficient response: Swith to Effexor
> 6. Partial response - raise dose to the MAX
> 7. Insufficient response - Switch to Klonopin
> 8. Insufficient response to Klonopin - switch to Nardil, up 90mg/day
> 9. Too many side effects on Nardil (though full response) - Swith to Manerix / Aurorix
> 10. Too many side effects Klonopin (though full response) - Swith to Nerontin
> 11. No or little response to the above - RECONSIDER DIAGNOSIS OF SOCIAL PHOBIA
>
> Note that there is no perfect treatment for Social Phobia. The more severe condition you are in, the more response you're gonna get. 30% reduction in symptoms is fair.
>
> Also, many other conditions occur with or mimic Social Phobia: Avoidant/Schizoid PD, Borderline PD (!), PTSD to name a few.
> My 2 cents.
>
> Jimmy
Posted by SalArmy4me on April 20, 2001, at 3:56:18
In reply to Re: Social Phobia - Jimmy's Algorithm, posted by kate9999 on April 20, 2001, at 3:18:37
Posted by KarenB on April 20, 2001, at 14:23:35
In reply to favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by sar on April 19, 2001, at 1:25:36
sar,
Yes - Sulpiride. It's not available in the US but you can get it mailorder from Europe. Combined with a psychostimulant, it is "the bomb".
It can cause weight gain but with the combination I mention, you'll have enough energy to exercise and keep it off.
Karen
Posted by sar on April 21, 2001, at 2:55:53
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety... » sar, posted by KarenB on April 20, 2001, at 14:23:35
Hi everyone,
Thanks for responding. It's good to hear about some people finding some relief from this problem. I've had some CBT but found it fairly beingn in terms of *feeling*--meaning, I no longer jump to catastrophic conclusions about situations and my behavior is better because of that--but the feeling of anxiety remains still.
Karen--how do you go about ordering Sulpiride? On the net? Any idea why it hasn't been approved in the US? What exactly is a psychostimulant?
I know that no one wants to gain weight from meds, but I've had some eating disordered behavior in the past & any weight gain would turn into kind of a mess for me, I just want to avoid one problem agitating another.
thanks again for the input, everyone.
sar
Posted by jimmygold70 on April 21, 2001, at 9:02:25
In reply to Re: Social Phobia - Jimmy's Algorithm, posted by kate9999 on April 20, 2001, at 3:18:37
I would wait longer for Nardil. It should be reserved as a third line therapy. Side effects on Naril are so severe for some people, that they might cease all drug treatments forever. My personal experience was negative, and most physicians would agree that it should be reserved as a third line.
Also, one might yry a nonselective SRI (clomipramine) before Nardil. It is very potent. Also, I believe that some of the positive effects of Nardil are from its anticholinergic activity, which clomipramine has planty of.
Jimmy
> I don't know if I'd wait so long to try Nardil - particularly if you're talking severe generalized sp, (or especially with atypical depression).I haven't thought of that. A good idea. We don't have Parnate sold around here, but it is a sound option. RIMAs are less effective, that's true.
> Also if Nardil side effects are too much, maybe switch first to Parnate - my experience was though I had side effects with both, they were very different side effects, so it would be worth the switch - since I think the RIMAs are maybe less effective.
> > My algorithm - GAD+SP
> >
> > 1. SSRI (Celexa is my favorite) for 2 months
> > 2. Doesn't work - raise the dose to the MAX
> > 3. Didn't work as well, wait for a month
> > 4. Partial response - Add buspirone up to 60mg/day
> > 5. Insufficient response: Swith to Effexor
> > 6. Partial response - raise dose to the MAX
> > 7. Insufficient response - Switch to Klonopin
> > 8. Insufficient response to Klonopin - switch to Nardil, up 90mg/day
> > 9. Too many side effects on Nardil (though full response) - Swith to Manerix / Aurorix
> > 10. Too many side effects Klonopin (though full response) - Swith to Nerontin
> > 11. No or little response to the above - RECONSIDER DIAGNOSIS OF SOCIAL PHOBIA
> >
> > Note that there is no perfect treatment for Social Phobia. The more severe condition you are in, the more response you're gonna get. 30% reduction in symptoms is fair.
> >
> > Also, many other conditions occur with or mimic Social Phobia: Avoidant/Schizoid PD, Borderline PD (!), PTSD to name a few.
> > My 2 cents.
> >
> > Jimmy
Posted by jimmygold70 on April 21, 2001, at 9:10:38
In reply to Did you all see the Harvard Depression Algorithym?, posted by SalArmy4me on April 20, 2001, at 3:56:18
Excellent !
http://www.mhc.com/Algorithms/Depression/index.htm
Posted by KarenB on April 21, 2001, at 11:34:24
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by sar on April 21, 2001, at 2:55:53
> Karen--how do you go about ordering Sulpiride? On the net? Any idea why it hasn't been approved in the US? What exactly is a psychostimulant?
sar,
I think Farmacia Cerati is your best bet - try the name with a .com or do a search. I know AndrewB and SLS know the address if that fails. All I can say is it worked for me. I was in the Philippines with no psychiatric help and was given a list of "things to try." There, it was available over the counter.
You may do best to run off a comprehensive information sheet about it from the Web and give it to your doc and ask that he/she write a script for you, that you can have on hand in case customs gives you a hard time. You can order three months supply at a time, this way but of course you'll want to try it first. It is fast acting, so you don't have to wait three to six weeks to see if it's going to work. I knew the first week.
Most (some?) docs would be willing to sign a script for an overseas drug along with a disclaimer, stating no responsibility if you have a bad reaction. Sulpiride has been in use in Europe for decades and I had no bad side effects whatsoever. There is a bit of weight gain possible, but when on it, with Amineptine, I had more energy than I have ever had in my life and was on a regular exercise program. I was more sane than I ever remember, as well.
Amineptine (a psychostimulant) sadly, after being in use for years in Europe, was discontinued for "possibility of abuse." I never took more than the recommended dose and had no desire to do so, so I don't know what they are talking about. I was getting it, along with the Sulpiride, shipped to me from the Philippines with a script from my doctor there. I have found nothing like that combo since.
A possible addition with the Sulpiride, since Amineptine is not available, is Adderall or Ritalin (I don't like Ritalin but it works well for some). Or, I am thinking, Lamictal, because of it's reputation as an activating mood stabilizer, with some antidepressant action. An activating mood stabilizer, along with Sulpiride, which is an anti-anxiety, neuroleptic (anti psychotic when used in high doses) may be just the ticket BUT I am not a doctor. Ask your doctor first. If they are offended by your desire to get involved with your recovery, FIND SOMEONE ELSE. It's hard to start over, but I recently did and my new doc is a Godsend. Great docs are as hard to find as great teachers. How many truly gifted teachers do YOU remember from school?
I was diagnosed here in the States, by a specialist, with Bipolar Disorder. You may, after unsuccessful trials, want to see someone like that. I don't know where you are but if you are anywhere near Denver, CO, Dr. Steven Dubovsky of the University of Colorado, is very good.
Hope you find something that works for you, soon. Very soon.
Karen
Posted by Leighwit on April 21, 2001, at 12:32:24
In reply to Did you all see the Harvard Depression Algorithym?, posted by SalArmy4me on April 20, 2001, at 3:56:18
Thanks very much for posting the link. Very useful on a number of levels!
LBW
> http://www.mhc.com/Algorithms/Depression/index.htm
Posted by JahL on April 22, 2001, at 0:20:15
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by Alan on April 19, 2001, at 8:03:43
> Ativan/Neurontin - great combo.Hi Alan.
Can you tell me what dose of Neurontin you take? Thanx.~
Sar,
Karen's recommendation of Sulpiride is a good one; it has consistently controlled (tho' not cured) my s.p. for over a year now. None of the other suggestions (except Paxil/Prozac briefly) have worked for me (tho' are all valid in their own right). It's pretty fast-acting & you shld determine its effectiveness within days. Low dose=few side-effects. Farmaciacerati are excellent.You might also want to consider Amisulpride, a sister compound which a few on this board have had good success with.
I've said it b4; I don't believe any therapy will *cure* (as in achieve complete remission) severe s.p., tho' it will support you in dealing (whatever that means) with the various issues & symptoms.
Come 2 a decision yet?
J.
Posted by mikes on April 22, 2001, at 19:18:26
In reply to favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by sar on April 19, 2001, at 1:25:36
sodium oxybate ;)
> Have you got one?
>
Posted by sar on April 23, 2001, at 0:17:59
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by mikes on April 22, 2001, at 19:18:26
I just checked xxx but couldn't find a meds section...but half the site is currently under construction. I'll check back tomorrow.
Karen...thanks for the specialist recommendation, that may be what I need. I hope yall will forgive my incessant questions, but I'm new to the meds/pdoc game and I'm not well educated about drugs, finding good specialists, etc. I've put it off for a long time, largely because of my fear and distrust in psychiatry.
my social anxiety has not been diagnosed as severe, I would guess that it's moderate...just wanted to clarify that because some of the posts mentioned "severe sp." But who knows? Anyway, it's become a primary concern with me because sp and depression seem to feed off one another quite hungrily, and sp seems more easily treatable (maybe).
Jah...thanks. I'm going to discuss Neurontin, Nardil, gabapentin, lamictal, Sulpiride, and klonopin as soon as I can see a doctor...which will hopefully be tuesday. I read one of your threads on another post and hope that you're feeling better and taking care of yourself.
mikes... :) where do you obtain your ghb and how does it feel? do you find it addictive?
lemme toss another question out...how do these drugs make you feel physically? What symptoms do you find Sulpiride (or whichever other sp drug) most successfully relieves?
thanks again,
sar
Posted by Alan on April 23, 2001, at 8:15:08
In reply to Re: social anxiety...SAR. » Alan, posted by JahL on April 22, 2001, at 0:20:15
>
> > Ativan/Neurontin - great combo.
>
> Hi Alan.
> Can you tell me what dose of Neurontin you take? Thanx.
> J.Yes J.
It waxes and wanes (over several weeks, not days) between 300MG and 600MG. Why you ask?
I use it to moderate the effect of Ativan fluctuating in my system with which I self medicate according to situational anxiety (performance anxiety).
The ativan fluctuates anywhere from 3 to 6 MG depending on the performance situation on a weekly basis. To enhance mood stability I came up with the idea of balancing it with neurontin, using it in tandem with the ativan flux. Decrease Ativan = increase neurontin, etc.
My psychopharmocologist thought it was a great idea especially since it worked! I had been through 10 years of refining, experimenting, etc and after trying everything but MAOI's I decided that this combo provided me with the most liveable in side effects compared to anything else....and I mean everything else....
The only drawback with the ativan is some short term memory loss - but it's not too bad. REM sleep brainwave disruption for me at 5-6 MG ativan so increasing neurontin especially at night helps me sleep better.
Any suggestions, comments?
Alan
Posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 11:38:25
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by sar on April 23, 2001, at 0:17:59
> > I just checked xxx but couldn't find a meds section...but half the site is currently under construction. I'll check back tomorrow.
Try this:
xxx
> > Jah...thanks. I'm going to discuss Neurontin, Nardil, gabapentin, lamictal, Sulpiride, and klonopin as soon as I can see a doctor...which will hopefully be tuesday. I read one of your threads on another post and hope that you're feeling better and taking care of yourself.Thanks. Just riding out the storm;-)
> > lemme toss another question out...how do these drugs make you feel physically? What symptoms do you find Sulpiride (or whichever other sp drug) most successfully relieves?Sar, the Sulpiride helps with all the s.p. symptoms equally (tho' not completely). Paranoid convictions (that you're the object of other's attn) & inner panic are mitigated, as are physical symptoms such as palpitations & adrenaline rushes. I feel calmer & more @ ease with people.
I think people mention 'severe' s.p. because it's more likely to be TR & so sufferers are attracted to this brd. The fact that yours is 'only' moderate, I think, increases the odds of successful resolution with meds. However I'm not so sure s.p. is more easily treatable (than depr.). For one thing there's a paucity of rsch concerning it compared to depression.
Let us know how it goes on Tuesday (&, if he hasn't already, don't be surprised if yr doc pushes an SSRI-std treatment-on you!)
J.
Posted by KarenB on April 23, 2001, at 11:54:12
In reply to Re: favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by sar on April 23, 2001, at 0:17:59
> lemme toss another question out...how do these drugs make you feel physically? What symptoms do you find Sulpiride (or whichever other sp drug) most successfully relieves?
sar,
I get this feeling of bodily "heaviness," when I am depressed. Like I can't move, as if every muscle in my body is fatigued and, well, heavy. I really think Sulpiride helped with that. But, it was taken with a stimulant (which did not work well for me on it's own) so I think the two had a synergistic effect.
Karen
Posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 12:15:44
In reply to Re: social anxiety...SAR. to JahL, posted by Alan on April 23, 2001, at 8:15:08
> > > Ativan/Neurontin - great combo.> > Can you tell me what dose of Neurontin you take?
> It waxes and wanes (over several weeks, not days) between 300MG and 600MG. Why you ask?
Similar reason to below. I'm about to add Neurontin to my ineffective Lamictal, primarily to combat social phobia/generalised anxiety. I'm interested in what doses are working for s.p.; most of the available info concerns itself with dosing for epilepsy.
*Theoretically* the Neurontin cld also help with my depression/ADD/depersonalisation.
> The ativan fluctuates anywhere from 3 to 6 MG depending on the performance situation on a weekly basis. To enhance mood stability I came up with the idea of balancing it with neurontin
> My psychopharmocologist thought it was a great idea especially since it worked! I had been through 10 years of refining, experimenting, etc and after trying everything but MAOI's I decided that this combo provided me with the most liveable in side effects compared to anything else....and I mean everything else....
Nice to see some of us come out the other side!
> The only drawback with the ativan is some short term memory loss - but it's not too bad. REM sleep brainwave disruption for me at 5-6 MG ativan so increasing neurontin especially at night helps me sleep better.
> Any suggestions, comments?I'm a little new to the AED side of things. AlI I can tell you is that the rec'd Neurontin dose for depression/anxiety seems to be 900-2000mg (& in some cases up to 4800mg!). I wonder if slightly increasing the Neurontin wld allow a further Ativan reduction. I take Klonopin for Lamictal-induced, & endogenous, insomnia, & can relate to the (ST) memory problems you rpt.
A couple of studys have shown Neurontin not to impair cognitive ability (unlike say, Topiramate).
Thanks,
J.
Posted by jimmygold70 on April 23, 2001, at 14:05:22
In reply to Re: social anxiety/NEURONTIN. » Alan, posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 12:15:44
It seems like people here made Neurontin a cure-all. It should be a good drug, but there is little research backup for claims made in this group concerning its effectivenss.
Jimmy
Posted by Alan on April 23, 2001, at 14:16:30
In reply to Re: social anxiety/NEURONTIN. » Alan, posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 12:15:44
>
> > > > Ativan/Neurontin - great combo.
>
> > > Can you tell me what dose of Neurontin you take?
>
> > It waxes and wanes (over several weeks, not days) between 300MG and 600MG. Why you ask?
>
> Similar reason to below. I'm about to add Neurontin to my ineffective Lamictal, primarily to combat social phobia/generalised anxiety. I'm interested in what doses are working for s.p.; most of the available info concerns itself with dosing for epilepsy.
>
> *Theoretically* the Neurontin cld also help with my depression/ADD/depersonalisation.
>
> > The ativan fluctuates anywhere from 3 to 6 MG depending on the performance situation on a weekly basis. To enhance mood stability I came up with the idea of balancing it with neurontin
>
> > My psychopharmocologist thought it was a great idea especially since it worked! I had been through 10 years of refining, experimenting, etc and after trying everything but MAOI's I decided that this combo provided me with the most liveable in side effects compared to anything else....and I mean everything else....
>
> Nice to see some of us come out the other side!
>
> > The only drawback with the ativan is some short term memory loss - but it's not too bad. REM sleep brainwave disruption for me at 5-6 MG ativan so increasing neurontin especially at night helps me sleep better.
>
> > Any suggestions, comments?
>
> I'm a little new to the AED side of things. AlI I can tell you is that the rec'd Neurontin dose for depression/anxiety seems to be 900-2000mg (& in some cases up to 4800mg!). I wonder if slightly increasing the Neurontin wld allow a further Ativan reduction. I take Klonopin for Lamictal-induced, & endogenous, insomnia, & can relate to the (ST) memory problems you rpt.
>
> A couple of studys have shown Neurontin not to impair cognitive ability (unlike say, Topiramate).
>
> Thanks,
> J.*******************************************
yes, I did try more neurontin but above 600MG it did effect coordination needed for performance (clumsiness, bumping/dropping things, etc.).
So it may have an anxiolytic effect at that small a dose but of course the ativan is taking care of most of that anyway.
I like to think of the neurontin being used as a buffer against the irritability I can feel with fluctuating doses needed for ativan.
I just wish more docs knew about the combo for this reason so the small (but strident) anti-benzo crowd would have even a little more reason to finally pipe down.
Jesus, they had me (and an inexperienced or misinformed pdoc) scared to even try the stuff at all for years until I went to a psychopharmacologist that knew what they were doing.
Now it is nice to finally have my life back !
Alan
Posted by SalArmy4me on April 23, 2001, at 14:47:23
In reply to NEURONTIN ?, posted by jimmygold70 on April 23, 2001, at 14:05:22
Are there any studies that prove Neurontin's effectiveness in Social Anxiety Disorder?
> It seems like people here made Neurontin a cure-all. It should be a good drug, but there is little research backup for claims made in this group concerning its effectivenss.
>
> Jimmy
Posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 14:59:17
In reply to NEURONTIN ?, posted by jimmygold70 on April 23, 2001, at 14:05:22
> > It seems like people here made Neurontin a cure-all.
No, you have misread the posts. People are just reporting what works for them, & fielding suggestions. I'm only trying Neurontin b/c 20+ meds have thus far failed, it has a favourable side-effect profile, & there is some indication it *may* be helpful 4 me.
> > It should be a good drug, but there is little research backup for claims made in this group concerning its effectivenss.
What claims? There are numerous anecdotal reports of *some* individuals receiving great benefit from this drug for depression, anxiety & s.p., where other drugs have failed.
Waiting for rsch to be done is not a viable option for some of us; the reason there is so little rsch is that mood disorders are a fairly new indication for Gabapentin. Admittedly the few studies that exist have had fairly equivocal results, possibly deterring further rsch. This doesn't mean the drug can't be a life-saver for some.
Posted by SalArmy4me on April 23, 2001, at 15:52:07
In reply to Re: NEURONTIN ?, posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 14:59:17
Have you ever added Lamictal to your Neurontin?
Posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 17:43:59
In reply to Re: NEURONTIN ? » JahL, posted by SalArmy4me on April 23, 2001, at 15:52:07
> > Have you ever added Lamictal to your Neurontin?
Hi Sal.
I'm taking 150mg of Lamictal presently, & am titrating slowly upwards (the rash has made a couple of brief appearances already). While I wait to see if that fixes the depression, I want 2 address the anxiety side of things, which is where the Gabapentin comes in.
Scott mentioned a case study where the addtn of Neurontin to Lamictal brought about complete remission.
In a thread below Kingfish describes how adding Neurontin to Topomax brought about a great improvement.
It's a long shot but I'm hoping for some of that apparent synergy.....
J.
Posted by SalArmy4me on April 24, 2001, at 3:17:10
In reply to Re: NEURONTIN ? » SalArmy4me, posted by JahL on April 23, 2001, at 17:43:59
There are apparently many studies that prove that Lamictal has an effect on serotonin, thus maximizing your chances at relief of depression and anxiety:
{From Medline}: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
1: Xie X, Hagan RM. Related Articles
Cellular and molecular actions of lamotrigine: Possible mechanisms of efficacy in bipolar disorder.
Neuropsychobiology. 1998 Oct;38(3):119-30. Review.
PMID: 9778599 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]2: Jovic NJ, Mirkovic D, Majkic-Singh N, Milovanovic DD. Related Articles
Plasma and urinary serotonin and 5-HIAA in children treated with lamotrigine for intractable epilepsy.
Adv Exp Med Biol. 1999;467:297-302.
PMID: 10721069 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]3: Southam E, Kirkby D, Higgins GA, Hagan RM. Related Articles
Lamotrigine inhibits monoamine uptake in vitro and modulates 5-hydroxytryptamine uptake in rats.
Eur J Pharmacol. 1998 Sep 25;358(1):19-24.
PMID: 9809864 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]4: Shiah IS, Yatham LN, Lam RW, Zis AP. Related Articles
Effects of lamotrigine on the 5-HT1A receptor function in healthy human males.
J Affect Disord. 1998 May;49(2):157-62.
PMID: 9609681 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]5. Conventional and new antidepressant drugs in the elderly.
Prog Neurobiol. 2000 Jul;61(4):353-96. Review.
PMID: 10727780 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by Bigdave on March 17, 2004, at 7:46:21
In reply to favorite drug for social anxiety..., posted by sar on April 19, 2001, at 1:25:36
I have tried alot of meds for social phobia/anxiety, 5 different SSRI medications including Paxil and Prozac. I wasted 4 years of my life trying different meds, none of them worked and I ended up on Diazepam (Valium) which is the only thing which helped, although I wouldn't recommend it to anyone as a treatment for anxiety.My own personal opinion is that SSRI's don't work too well for social phobia/anxiety conditions where this is the main illness. I think if you take an SSRI for this condition and you feel ill right away from taking it it's probably a sign that SSRI medication is not going to be affective. This has been the case for me anyway, but then everyone is different and some people may be able to tolerate SSRI medication and respond well.
I think MAOI medications are the best and first choice for social anxiety. At the moment I'm taking Manerix which is a newer reversible-MAOI without the side effects of the older MAOI's.
It's too early to say yet if Manerix will help with my social anxiety, however I have experienced no early warning side effects and for the first time I feel good, which is very encouraging and I feel this medication may be the one I've been waiting for these past 4 years.
In summary: My advice, try an SSRI, Paxil or something similiar for 4 weeks and see how you get on. If it's not for you, don't waste time on other SSRI's, just wash out and go on a MAOI. If you can get on an MAOI right away, even better.
BigDave
> Have you got one?
>> If the drug also helped with depression & generalized anxiety, that would be even better.
>
> (and do you happen to know of one that *really* doesn't cause weight gain?)
>
> I'm doing my research but I want to hear it from the people. :)
>
> thanks in advance,
> sar
This is the end of the thread.
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